(SPOILER)
Discuss the fifth and sixth episodes of Dollhouse season 2.
It's the beginning of the end. And if you missed the two episodes, they are now available to watch for free at the Fox site and Hulu and can be purchased individually on iTunes (SD version only, HD versions are "season only").
Conflicting info on who wrote and directed "The Public Eye" and "The Left Hand" so you'll just watch the credits to find out.
eta: Success!
[ edited by Lioness on 2009-12-05 01:10 ]
Lioness | December 05, 01:09 CET
gossi | December 05, 01:11 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | December 05, 01:22 CET
sonofyork | December 05, 01:46 CET
BlueSkies | December 05, 01:54 CET
gossi | December 05, 01:54 CET
The One True b!X | December 05, 01:55 CET
toygrief | December 05, 02:01 CET
JAYROCK | December 05, 02:02 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 02:05 CET
josswhedonaddict | December 05, 02:08 CET
Me too! =)
sarahb | December 05, 02:10 CET
That is all.
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 02:10 CET
toygrief | December 05, 02:15 CET
josswhedonaddict | December 05, 02:15 CET
Oh. Yeah. You win. :)
I have to go away now, no spoilers!
FruityOatySaladbar | December 05, 02:17 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 02:20 CET
The Dark Shape | December 05, 02:22 CET
I love the fact Fran takes a great line - and somehow makes it greater.
gossi | December 05, 02:22 CET
josswhedonaddict | December 05, 02:25 CET
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 02:27 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 02:27 CET
toygrief | December 05, 02:28 CET
baxter | December 05, 02:28 CET
BamSaidTheLady | December 05, 02:29 CET
nanceoir | December 05, 02:29 CET
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 02:29 CET
Go Joss!
whedon is GOD | December 05, 02:29 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 02:29 CET
(Hi, all. First post, long long time lurker.)
EnWhy | December 05, 02:29 CET
Giles'chainsawchick | December 05, 02:29 CET
The Dark Shape | December 05, 02:30 CET
gossi | December 05, 02:31 CET
benboy606 | December 05, 02:31 CET
sarahb | December 05, 02:31 CET
josswhedonaddict | December 05, 02:33 CET
I've missed this show.
toygrief | December 05, 02:36 CET
Maggie | December 05, 02:38 CET
discordia | December 05, 02:40 CET
baxter | December 05, 02:40 CET
DetectiveYelsew | December 05, 02:41 CET
nuccbko | December 05, 02:42 CET
benboy606 | December 05, 02:42 CET
discordia | December 05, 02:42 CET
josswhedonaddict | December 05, 02:45 CET
nanceoir | December 05, 02:46 CET
benboy606 | December 05, 02:46 CET
Giles'chainsawchick | December 05, 02:47 CET
discordia | December 05, 02:50 CET
baxter | December 05, 02:50 CET
Also, Madeline's questioning of if she's really free to Paul is a really good argument.
Also, I love Miracle's acting outside LAX. Seriously.
gossi | December 05, 02:51 CET
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 02:51 CET
nuccbko | December 05, 02:52 CET
discordia | December 05, 02:55 CET
toygrief | December 05, 02:55 CET
discordia | December 05, 02:57 CET
nuccbko | December 05, 02:57 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:00 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:00 CET
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 03:01 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:02 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:02 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 03:03 CET
RavenU | December 05, 03:03 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:04 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:04 CET
benboy606 | December 05, 03:05 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:05 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:07 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:07 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 03:07 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:07 CET
sarahb | December 05, 03:09 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:10 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:10 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:11 CET
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 03:11 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:11 CET
nanceoir | December 05, 03:11 CET
BamSaidTheLady | December 05, 03:12 CET
SteveP | December 05, 03:12 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:12 CET
The Dark Shape | December 05, 03:12 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:12 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 03:12 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:13 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:14 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:16 CET
Giles'chainsawchick | December 05, 03:18 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:18 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:20 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:20 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:20 CET
AllShookDown | December 05, 03:21 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:21 CET
And, ummmmm, Bennett is made of crazy. And I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing.
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 03:21 CET
[ edited by Lioness on 2009-12-05 03:31 ]
Lioness | December 05, 03:21 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:21 CET
baxter | December 05, 03:22 CET
sarahb | December 05, 03:23 CET
benboy606 | December 05, 03:23 CET
thegingerpire | December 05, 03:23 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:24 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:27 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:32 CET
The Dark Shape | December 05, 03:32 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:32 CET
SteveP | December 05, 03:33 CET
kioria | December 05, 03:40 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:40 CET
discordia | December 05, 03:41 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:41 CET
Summer as Bennett: Compelling.
Enver as Victor as Topher: Freakin' amazing.
skeeler | December 05, 03:43 CET
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:46 CET
But what does it mean that Bennett was Caroline's best friend? I'm still confused...
nuccbko | December 05, 03:46 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 03:48 CET
nuccbko | December 05, 03:51 CET
Gods, I love this show!
Nebula1400 | December 05, 03:51 CET
starbuckmacguff | December 05, 03:52 CET
SteveP | December 05, 03:53 CET
starbuckmacguff | December 05, 03:55 CET
toygrief | December 05, 03:56 CET
I wasn't complaining! And I assume it was so that he didn't get blood on his shirt.
Lioness | December 05, 04:00 CET
whedon is GOD | December 05, 04:00 CET
nuccbko | December 05, 04:01 CET
starbuckmacguff | December 05, 04:01 CET
Suzie | December 05, 04:01 CET
Intrepid Reporter | December 05, 04:02 CET
Taaroko | December 05, 04:03 CET
Arison | December 05, 04:03 CET
kioria | December 05, 04:03 CET
Maybe I need a treatment.
redeem147 | December 05, 04:03 CET
BamSaidTheLady | December 05, 04:03 CET
JTown | December 05, 04:04 CET
[ edited by xander fan on 2009-12-05 04:05 ]
xander fan | December 05, 04:05 CET
Ditto on this. Just when I think I can't possibly be more impressed with Enver, he blows me away even more. SO awesome.
sarahb | December 05, 04:07 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | December 05, 04:09 CET
Just a overall big thumbs up for tonight's episodes.
[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2009-12-05 04:11 ]
Buffyfantic | December 05, 04:09 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | December 05, 04:12 CET
dorkenheimer | December 05, 04:12 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:13 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:13 CET
[ edited by guidedby on 2009-12-05 04:14 ]
guidedby | December 05, 04:14 CET
Lioness | December 05, 04:15 CET
That said, can someone explain the end to me? I got kinda bombarded by people during parts. What was with Perrin's huge switch at the end, saying the house doesn't exist? Did the LA group mention something about Bennet programming a failsafe sort of thing or did I make that up? And if not, what the bloody hell?!
trunkstheslayer | December 05, 04:25 CET
And did anyone else find it funny when Bennett was talking about messing with Perrin's brain to make him better? Seemed a bit like Alliance talk to me ;)
Oh Fox, why do you have to do this to us??????
hmvb15 | December 05, 04:25 CET
MikeTMC (Jayne_Statue) | December 05, 04:27 CET
The first episode kinda sucked... Perrin as the doll was way obvious when they kept having the wife initiate that whole white knight crap. I was definitely bored.
But the second episode TOTALLY made up for it... it's probably my favorite episode thus far. Victor and Topher are the best things this show has (had?) going for it, so all the fun stuff with them together was a treat to watch. And River Tam!!! Too awesome! I don't really understand what happened at the end, but hopefully they'll flesh it out next week.
Man... I'm really starting to like this show :(
xanderharris | December 05, 04:27 CET
Yay, cake people!
[ edited by C. A. Bridges on 2009-12-05 04:33 ]
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:27 CET
Dollhouse had it's faults, but tonight was not one of them. It's a phrase much overused these days, but I say THIS was awesome, episodic drama at its best.
[ edited by Riverine on 2009-12-05 04:28 ]
Riverine | December 05, 04:27 CET
I wish there had only been one set of credits because the episodes went together like a mini-movie.
[ edited by Riker on 2009-12-05 04:30 ]
Riker | December 05, 04:29 CET
That was heavenly.
Trying to remember all the twists and turns...
First of all, loved seeing Mo! What a great surprise. It was so much better since I didn't know it was going to happen.
Summer is terrific. I didn't think it was possible to hate her (character). But I did. Any bad thoughts anyone had about Topher...multiply those by about a hundred. What a creepy, dangerous sadist. You can try to explain her 'treatment' of Echo because of what Caroline did to her, but that was Caroline! Not Echo. Wow. Although I realize later she said they were the same, so we know she thinks that.
So I was thinking, while it was happening, that the conversation between Bennett and Topher was going to be the highlight. Great chemistry between them, and Summer showed me something I hadn't seen before. I see some people were seeing River, and I guess there was a moment or two where that might have been a good comparison, but overall I thought that was a wholly original character. Impressively done by Summer.
Then Topher called...
VictorTopher, and an even greater scene occurred. Enver is easily the happiest result of this series. We can hate FOX all we want (and I do), but I thank them for Mr. Enver Gjokaj.Also, great to see Echo verbalizing our fears. Is returning Caroline to her body the right thing? Cause that's killing Echo. Nice.
Two hours of twisty bliss tonight. With two more hours next Friday. So happy.
For now.
guidedby | December 05, 04:32 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:33 CET
Elphaba | December 05, 04:35 CET
guidedby | December 05, 04:35 CET
[ edited by C. A. Bridges on 2009-12-05 04:35 ]
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:35 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:37 CET
Lioness | December 05, 04:38 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:42 CET
Question: Did you heart break when Madeline was back in the DC Dollhouse being imprinted by Bennett? I knew the dolls never truly leave, I hope that they truly leave in the finale, especially for Echo/Caroline.
WheelsOfJoy | December 05, 04:47 CET
Enver should win all of the Emmys that don't go to FNL's Zach Gilford. That was even more top-notch than his star turn as Kiki.
On the downswing, I kinda wish Summer had been a little less River-y. It diminishes her as an actress slightly when TSCC showed us she can do much more. But that's a minor complaint, and she and Fran played off each other beautifully.
holeintheworld | December 05, 04:47 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 04:59 CET
He found it too complicated to follow, but I think he enjoyed much of it. He also thought the part with sleeper awakened Perrin was very Terminatory.
redeem147 | December 05, 05:01 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 05:10 CET
I was blown away by double dollhouse december. I totally forgot I had other TV shows to watch on Sci-Fi afterwards.
Anonymous1 | December 05, 05:10 CET
As for the episodes themselves, I'm still kind of in awe of them. December's Dollhouse double headers are off to a great start.
nanceoir | December 05, 05:24 CET
Lioness | December 05, 05:29 CET
I'm just so happy we got this second season of episodes, this is really very special, and kinda scary.
embers | December 05, 05:41 CET
savagenapkin | December 05, 07:04 CET
hopitopia | December 05, 07:07 CET
Plus, it just can't be said enough how awesome the dueling Tophers were.
And next week looks friggin' incredible.
bonzob | December 05, 07:07 CET
Oh man, that was a roller coaster. Enver is even more extraordinary than I thought -- and I already thought he was pretty damn extraordinary. I loved all the Eliza/Alexis scenes.
I think anyone who has seen Twin Peaks can understand my nearly hysterical joy at seeing Adelle have such a position of power over Ray Wise.
And I really want to know more about the history of Caroline/Benett. Am I the only one who got a kind of "lover scorned" vibe?
Alpha next week, eep!
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 07:08 CET
The only thing niggling at me is why don't they try their plan again to knock out Echo? Or send her an imprint saying, "Come home!" ?
ilion | December 05, 07:11 CET
Just so I would know not to read it. Guess I'll wait a week to read these threads from now on. Great.
guidedby | December 05, 07:14 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | December 05, 07:19 CET
bonzob | December 05, 07:19 CET
IrrationaliTV | December 05, 07:26 CET
hopitopia | December 05, 07:27 CET
Not really. I completely agree with you in regards to Caroline. She's not really a good person. Her boyfriend because of her irresponsibility, and now we find out that Caroline left her best trapped under a boulder while she ran. They obviously did something really bad, and she left Bennett to suffer the consequences alone.
As we can see, Echo is a much better person than Caroline.
crazygolfa | December 05, 07:36 CET
Topher+Summer=adorable.
Poor November. Who is she going to be now? Demeter?
hacksaway | December 05, 07:39 CET
And the biggest laughs of the series so far, for me, go to Victor/Topher. Freaking uncanny. Oh to have been a fly on the wall the day they filmed THOSE scenes.
Tin Ear Tom | December 05, 07:43 CET
hopitopia, I watched the whole show first, I just don't watch the previews. I prefer to know absolutely nothing.
I realize talking about the previews isn't forbidden, I just thought people here knew some people don't watch them. Don't worry about it.
guidedby | December 05, 07:46 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 07:57 CET
If you focus on hating her, I think that you're opening up a whole world of disappointment. After all, we know "Caroline" is fully alive in Epitaph One.
I think speculatively speaking, Echo is rebuilding a "better" Caroline in the same way that Perrin was "rebuilt". The only difference is, she's doing it herself whereas Perrin was carefully crafted.
[ edited by azzers on 2009-12-05 08:24 ]
azzers | December 05, 08:18 CET
I was thinking along the same lines but couldn't put it into words just yet.
guidedby | December 05, 08:22 CET
ilion, it was unclear to me whether Bennett changed the pulse to not affect Echo (possibly wanting her conscious and suffering when she died?), or perhaps Echo were simply immune - due, perhaps, to her awakening selfhood, or all the head trauma, or the fact that her implants are from a different Dollhouse. If she is immune, then trying to re-send the pulse might be ineffective.
A great pair of episodes from the newer writers - I think they're the storytelling equivalents of Dichen and Enver in terms of raw talent and recent induction into the Whedonverse. Enver, Summer, and Alexis were all awesome in these episodes (though mostly Enver, in my opinion). Still, didn't Joss say he was giving Summer a non-crazy character this time? Maybe I'll understand how Bennett qualifies in later episodes, but I'm just not noticing an absence of craziness.
Also, azzers, great analysis. I previewed this and caught your comment with the refresh.
Mercenary | December 05, 08:22 CET
Harmalicious | December 05, 08:22 CET
Harmalicious | December 05, 08:24 CET
A few have commented on how they couldn't develop an attachment to Echo, something I was able to do from day one, I predict (really truly "seeing it coming") that Echo will turn out to be the character I mourn at the end of this show and the real Caroline will be the character that kills her in some way.
I could be wrong, but I see Echo as the best person that Caroline could possibly be and I will miss her most of all. She is more aspirational than anyone has given her credit for and Eliza is/had been doing a fantastic job in setting it all up.
Thanks, ED. You have taken far too much crap and you are leading us all down the rabbit hole brilliantly.
IrrationaliTV | December 05, 08:31 CET
wackybroadwaynightmare | December 05, 08:36 CET
Harmalicious | December 05, 08:37 CET
hopitopia | December 05, 08:40 CET
As Adelle has said in paraphrase, Caroline's reach has always exceeded her grasp. To Ballard, she is actually very similar. Morally set, without the ability (either in intelligence or other resources ) to "close." As a result, she tends to be involved debacles that result in extremely shaky moral situations.
The Bennett thing was bad, but looking back on it, I'm not sure if Caroline could have moved that rock even if she'd stayed behind. I'm hoping we'll get a bigger reveal on that situation. Because honestly other than going "well that explains Bennett's anger", it didn't seem extremely cut and dry what was going on.
[ edited by azzers on 2009-12-05 08:45 ]
azzers | December 05, 08:44 CET
JAYROCK | December 05, 08:46 CET
The reason I think this may be relevant is that it seems like before the incident with Caroline that caused her to lose control of her arm (and possibly caused the migrains) Bennett was probably someone much happier, but Bennett allowed herself to become as sadistic and amoral as she is now.
per-maybe-haps | December 05, 08:47 CET
It wasn't about moving anything, I don't think, but simply the fact that Caroline abandoned her.
The One True b!X | December 05, 08:53 CET
I kindof got the impression that that was going to stick until they wiped her again and told those nerves that they could work once more. (although I'm sure that limitation would complicate the story action a lot.)
MikeTMC (Jayne_Statue) | December 05, 08:54 CET
THIS. I am so tired of the Eliza bashing. She has the most challenging role on the show, and I think she's done a great job.
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 08:55 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 07:57 CET
I can't say I disliked Caroline that much - before tonight - I just liked Echo better. It seems to me that Echo has absorbed all Caroline's brash courage and idealism, and picked up (from I assume, a combination of other imprints and an emerging, autonomous sense of self), a more mature sense of the consequences of your actions.
I'd love to know what happened to Caroline between the incident in the Rossum lab that started her journey, and the callous leaving Bennett behind. Because I don't believe that Caroline was that hard and jaded in the beginning, just arrogant and naive, but well meaning.
Now I have to watch E1 again, because I'm confused all over again about the Echo/Caroline split.
I don't understand the criticism, way up-thread, of Alexis's acting - I thought he was perfect. He's not Wesley - which is how I tend to see these criticisms about actors who have played strong, well loved characters in previous Joss shows.
The only thing that took me out of the character at first, is the fact that I'm still not used to his American accent. But that's me, not any fault with the acting.
Same goes for the early comments about Summer playing Bernnett too much like River. WTF?? I really don't get that. Summer has a distinctive voice, which was flattened out to play Cameron in T:TSCC but is noticeable again as Bennett. I can't imagine where else the comparison is coming from.
Her mental .... umm, quirks, came off as more like Alpha than River, IMO.
EF:clarity
[ edited by Shey on 2009-12-05 09:06 ]
Shey | December 05, 08:56 CET
1) Free Bennett
2) If not possible, try to get her help
3) If not possible, stay until help arrives
4) If not possible because of imminent (unavoidable) danger or other justifiable priorities leave.
She takes option 4, but we're not given enough information to evaluate whether or not it was a bad decision. I was just stating that from the evidence that we did have, option 1 doesn't seem possible.
[ edited by azzers on 2009-12-05 09:12 ]
azzers | December 05, 09:05 CET
josswhedonaddict | December 05, 09:07 CET
Her mental .... umm, quirks, came off as more like Alpha than River, IMO.
When I saw the initial preview clips for these episodes I was a bit let down as far as Summer goes. But when I saw the episodes in full I really liked her character, and all her peculiar mannerisms. Is it a far stretch from her usual roles? No. But it was still awesome.
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 09:12 CET
azzers | December 05, 09:15 CET
Are there really people who see that performance as being the same as River?
The One True b!X | December 05, 09:17 CET
Yes, Enver is a genius, but I think Franz deserves a lot of credit in these eps, as well. Not just for the exchanges with his Victor-self, but also for his scenes with Summer. He played the smitten geek so perfectly, while playing his own hand so close that I didn't see it coming that his smitten-ness hadn't caused him to forget his own role in this Machiavellian power play.
So much to love here. The first really clear view of the road that leads to E1, which is creepy and freaky in the extreme.
I love you Joss, your best is better than anyone's. ;).
Shey | December 05, 09:19 CET
The One True b!X | December 05, 09:22 CET
Lioness | December 05, 05:29 CET
I can't find it! Is it over on .org?? Off to look again.
Shey | December 05, 09:30 CET
b!x, you could apply that to River as well, even in her most delirious moments. The difference here is that Bennett's "madness" is driven by revenge -- which might have played off more effectively if we'd gotten a more complete view of her past with Caroline. It worked, but it could have worked "better" if that makes sense.
I totally agree with you about Victor being imprinted as season one Topher though. Season one Topher is more of a caricature, whereas the present Topher has these underlying moral issues.
I really love where they are taking Topher's character in the second season.
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 09:39 CET
Bennett was damaged, to be sure, but deliberate. She exerted a very specific and methodical control over the order her world was supposed to be in. River never exerted anything like a real sort of deliberate, fully-aware control (until, ultimately, the movie). Bennett clearly knows who she is, and how her world is supposed to be.
River, I think, knew somewhere inside that the world did have some sort of way it was supposed to be, but had lost all rational idea of what it could possibly be.
Anyway, I just didn't see any River in Bennett. But then I don't see any Faith in Echo either.
The One True b!X | December 05, 09:45 CET
hopitopia | December 05, 09:49 CET
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 09:51 CET
Simon | December 05, 09:56 CET
ETA that the HD versions say that but the SD don't.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-12-05 10:01 ]
The One True b!X | December 05, 10:00 CET
Shey | December 05, 09:30 CET
Found it! b!X posted a link in the comments under Miracle Laurie says thanks to our thanks thread, and it does take you to .org.
Also on that thread, there is now a long, detailed and totally awesome post from bobw1o. :)
Shey | December 05, 10:02 CET
The One True b!X | December 05, 10:04 CET
Welcome back River, welcome back!!!!
Going to bed happy tonight.
ryy | December 05, 10:26 CET
Shey | December 05, 10:40 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | December 05, 10:58 CET
I kindof got the impression that that was going to stick until they wiped her again and told those nerves that they could work once more. (although I'm sure that limitation would complicate the story action a lot.)
MikeTMC, this is explained, though I had to watch it a second time to catch it. When Perrin gets activated or whatever by Bennett to kill Echo, Echo is on the ground, and she is not able to use her hand -- she is trying to fight off Perrin with her other hand, but then she says "You don't have to be what they make you." And then she regains the use of her left hand and grabs a weapon of some kind and uses it on him.
ShanshuBugaboo | December 05, 11:28 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | December 05, 11:43 CET
Also, I think many people have expressed the sentiment before about how much TV they would trade for another season of firefly. Well, we got at least a good 15 seconds more of firefly tonight, so in my book that AT LEAST cancels out the admittedly mediocre stretches of dollhouse.
Also, I think it hasn't been mentioned yet what a good job I think Stacey Scowley did as Sen. Perrin's handler. Creepy and innocent at the same time.
Anyway, this promoted me to look up her imdb page and THAT led to an excuse to rewatch one of the best episodes of buffy.
Who is this offering Spike a smoke?
Dollhouse's guest stars have been amazing.
ryy | December 05, 11:51 CET
I think speculatively speaking, Echo is rebuilding a "better" Caroline in the same way that Perrin was "rebuilt". The only difference is, she's doing it herself whereas Perrin was carefully crafted.
Wonderfully said.
I didn't see River at all in Bennett. But I had hoped Bennett would be a little more "normal," following what Joss had said. I had mentally pictured her as sort of a geeky version of Adelle, with a little more subtle reveal of the evil behind that cherub's face, somehow. But I did enjoy the chemistry between Bennett and Topher.
I am one of those who much preferred the second episode to the first, and, as with all of you above, so much of the credit for that is Enver's Victopher. OMG, the man's acting hits the heights every episode he's in. He is the true "find" for this series (much like Chiwetel Ejiofor was for Serenity), and I hope Hollywood takes notice.
palehorse | December 05, 12:20 CET
Simon | December 05, 12:46 CET
eyes of the world | December 05, 13:13 CET
rehabber | December 05, 13:56 CET
Loved the Enver/Topher tag team.
My favourite line, and one I think says much about the basis of the show, was (and I paraphrase because I can't remember it exactly) that Echo's bad guys weren't as bad as their bad guys.
[ edited by redeem147 on 2009-12-05 14:07 ]
redeem147 | December 05, 14:06 CET
Anuris | December 05, 14:23 CET
RazorBlade | December 05, 15:48 CET
maz | December 05, 15:49 CET
Lioness | December 05, 15:50 CET
P.S. PLEASE WILL SOMEONE GIVE ENVER HIS OWN SHOW!!
ginalee | December 05, 15:58 CET
edcsLover9 | December 05, 16:06 CET
Having said that, Enver was great as Topher, but I can only handle one Topher, so it was a bit too much for me. I thought both episodes were a bit underwhelming, but they probably grow on me on second viewing like most of the other Dollhouse episodes did. I simply seemed to expect too much.
I feel really sad for Madeline/November, but it's an interesting way to keep her on the show. While I like her (oh pretty), I must admit though that I think she's one of the worst actors on the show. Her Madeline feels not all that different from Mellie.
Donnie | December 05, 16:24 CET
Djungelurban | December 05, 16:41 CET
Dichen is in all of the remaining episodes.
Caroline is an idealist. Given the Dollhouse isn't an ideal place, that's kinda... Not great.
gossi | December 05, 16:47 CET
Amazing. Amazingly Amazing!
Love Summer (Bennet was incredibly River-ey). Love Fran. LOVE ENVER!
Enver was hilarious as Topher. You'd think it was Fran talking if you weren't looking at him. The Topher/Topherdoll conversations cracked me up!
Really liked Echo in these episodes. I think Alexis was best as murderous-Perrin: reminded me of murderous-Wes in the Angel episode 'Billy'.
Fox are gits for cancelling this show.
Shep | December 05, 16:56 CET
It's a twisted show indeed and I love every minute of it.
kornundsprite | December 05, 17:17 CET
lupersnickety | December 05, 17:22 CET
C. A. Bridges | December 05, 17:24 CET
Caroline leaving Bennet trapped in the wreckage seems wholly consistent with Echo. The purity and intensity of her will to survive, which leads to what at first seems rather easy to judge as a reprehensible action, is also a big part of what has been driving her to transcend the imprinting process. What all that adds up to -- I don't know -- other than that we are going to be thinking about and unpacking this "short lived" series for years and years and years.
ananda | December 05, 17:47 CET
[ edited by CellarDoor on 2009-12-05 17:50 ]
CellarDoor | December 05, 17:50 CET
Thanks for the information. It still bothers me (it always bothers me when regular characters are not in every single episode, even though they are in the credits), but at least there is a reason behind it. It's just sad that Sierra and Victor, characters who get so little to do as it is, are always the ones having to take a break.
@ Gossi
Thanks for the information. I am relieved now. Now tell me that we get a backstory for Boyd in the remaining episodes and I'll be happy until I die.
Donnie | December 05, 18:07 CET
ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome#Characteristics
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2009-12-05 18:25 ]
zeitgeist | December 05, 18:14 CET
DeezyG | December 05, 18:42 CET
ShanshuBugaboo: I totally got the same vibe from Bennett towards Caroline, I have to rewatch both episodes (any excuse will do,hee) but to me it seemed like there was a lot more going on than Bennett being left behind by her "best friend"; I saw a mutual genius-geek crush between Bennett and Topher (love!) but the delightful intensity she showed as she amped up the pain level way past 11, her finger as she wiped away tears from Echo/Caroline's face, to me it reeked more of "lover scorned" than just being left behind by a "best friend".
bloodyrockerswitch | December 05, 19:04 CET
Lioness | December 05, 19:17 CET
And I'm totally more interested in Echo as herself. This really clarified that it's not entirely Caroline rising to the surface and resisting the imprints, so much as it's an entirely other personality in her brain/body doing so.
Miracle Laurie is a TERRIBLE actress, but she is lovely. And Alexis definitely seemed to be doing some "actoring" here. I so wish this show hadn't been cancelled.
medea culpa | December 05, 19:20 CET
So the scene with Echo and Perrin removing the devices comes across as gratuitous and overly sexual as a result (What was up with that?). Other than that plot hole, good eps overall. Entertaining.
I think when some people become accustomed to seeing an actor in a specific role over time, they tend to see that character in everything the actor does afterwards. Particularly when it's a role in a show the viewer has probably watched and rewatched countless times. I didn't see any of River in Bennett. There were bits of craziness, but they were unlike any of River's little quirks to me.
And major props to Enver. That was an amazing piece of mimicry. It could have been Fran reading those lines.
JossIzBoss | December 05, 19:27 CET
gossi | December 05, 19:30 CET
Also, Caroline - go back to '1x07 Echoes'. Adelle says to her they've been doing the dance with her for two years. That's a lotta backstory.
gossi | December 05, 19:34 CET
baxter | December 05, 19:51 CET
I personally think Enver is good, but I stop far short of the accolades he's getting. To me, he's the anti-Dushku of the show. People go in with the assumption he's a "chameleon" and so when he gets things mostly right with a few flaws, people don't notice. When ED does the same thing, people (not everyone mind you) tend fixate on the flaws.
Regarding the last episode, I thought Victopher was loud. It was like watching Fran if he dialed every mannerism up to 10. Was it funny? Absolutely. But I actually didn't find it enjoyable after the first few laughs. But that's just my opinion. If other people love it, kudos. I'm glad people have found something they love in the show.
azzers | December 05, 19:52 CET
My guess? Caroline got so swept up in the fight against Rossum that she started abandoning her friends/followers as we see from Bennett's POV, and then realized she was turning into the thing she hated. In that moment of realization and vulnerability Rossum/DeWitt got to her.
For a second it bugged me that Rossum was trying to take power by such devious means; they've got money, why don't they buy their way into power like everyone else? But then it hit me: it's actually more the other way around. The rich and powerful people who matter are already part of Rossum -- it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that the Perrin family owns Rossum stock, for instance. This isn't Rossum attempting a coup, this is the elite doing what it's always done, just with a few more gadgets and tech attached.
As for the acting: I'm easily pleased. Makes things a heck of a lot more fun for me, apparently...
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | December 05, 20:10 CET
That sounds delicious. Man, what am I going to do, once there is no Joss show on television anymore? His shows are like crack, but the good kind of crack. Boyd is actually my favorite character of the show (together with Amy's Whiskey) and I have a strong need to discover his backstory. One of the most intriguing secrets the show has left.
Donnie | December 05, 20:11 CET
On the subject, I love having two Tophers. It makes me morally questionable.
curlymynci | December 05, 20:30 CET
I think they have made this show their own. I applaud them for it. And the people that disect this show down to the very facial expression, and CRITICIZE it, I ignore them.
You see, I ALSO only see what I want to see. I love to be entertained! JMO
whedon is GOD | December 05, 20:48 CET
At first I wondered why Rossum allowed Perrin to say the word "Dollhouse" so much, but with his reveal at the end, it now makes sense: now all the urban legends get attributed to anti-Rossum propaganda.
Also, anyone catch that the only one Topher trusts to watch the LA house is himself? So as he starts to lose his trust in himself and his own judgment, he'll lose his trust in everyone.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | December 05, 21:08 CET
I don't see that at all. Echo would never have left a friend behind that coldly. In this very set of episodes, it was Echo who flatly stated that they had to go help November, which is basically making an ethical and moral decision to walk into danger. Caroline, on the other hand, for some reason, just up and walked out on Bennett. Those are diametrically opposed behaviors.
The One True b!X | December 05, 21:16 CET
azzers | December 05, 21:16 CET
embers | December 05, 21:17 CET
sab39 | December 05, 21:25 CET
OCD does describe aspects of her behavior as well. Perhaps slightly better in that she keeps her compulsive need for things the way she wants them, and still allows for the rage that would come from a sense of betrayal that would most likely come from a true friend doing what Caroline did. The truth is, I really don't know but I can see parts of both.
Unless there are any psychiatrists in the house that have actually dealt with both types before who can set us straight, I think we're all just trying to best "fit" what is going on with her though.
[ edited by azzers on 2009-12-05 21:53 ]
azzers | December 05, 21:52 CET
And I really want to know more about the history of Caroline/Benett. Am I the only one who got a kind of "lover scorned" vibe?
Right there with you, ShanshuBugaboo. In a way, Dollhouse reminds me of Twin Peaks- it can get a bit rocky, but whoa, hold on to your seats when they hit it out of the ball park.
And Adelle doing THAT to Leland? I clapped. ;)
Totally with you on the "lover vibe" as well. I don't see mutual love; more like Bennet loved her, worshiped her, and Caroline abandoned her sort of thing.
I think they have made this show their own. I applaud them for it. And the people that disect this show down to the very facial expression, and CRITICIZE it, I ignore them.
I couldn't agree with you more, whedon is GOD. That's why I think there are a few of us who could instantly love this show, even during the first five, because we could see how the show interpreted us interpreting the show. As far as dissecting, well, I can't help it (it's in my fingertips). But that is why I don't see Bennet as River- River never had the half-smile frowns the was that Bennet does. And, as others have mentioned, Bennet uses her tics to exert power over her co-workers. River didn't really have tics. When she'd go "nuts", it was the things the Alliance did to her exerting power over her (opposite to Bennet). And how awesome was Bennet's room? Very neat, tidy- truly Dr. Strangelove mastermind. :)
This episode not only brought up the tech to wipe people successfully at a distance, but modified it can create the Butchers ('a la Perrinator). And, who could forget the story telling through memories (Bennet's in Echo's head). And, as Joss said, memories are flimsy things; only one-sided and usually not remembered well (extreme paraphrasing). ;)
And I feel horrible that Madeline is back in the Dollhouse. DC- even worse. "Am I free?"- nope, not anymore. Some mistakes you can't come back from. :(
korkster | December 05, 22:14 CET
Ray Wise bringing lovely Twin Peak-ish vibes into the fold.
Summer acing Bennett. Seeing a young woman so sweet and vibrant turning herself into such an interesting evil human being confirms the power of good acting for me, once again.
Dueling Tophers - brilliant idea - need I say more? Well yes. Enver Gjokaj, you have greatness in you. Will be following your career with huge interest.
Ballard "freeing" Madeline. Unfortunately, having the freedom to make her own mistakes landed her in deep doo-doo.
Twisty, turny, wonderful goodness. And more to come.
Tonya J | December 05, 22:24 CET
Enver is the best mimic (impersonator) since Rich Little, only betterer. Wonder what his Nathan Fillion's Captain Hammer would be like? He could be his brother, Captain Ball-Peen in the sequel: Dr. Horrible: The Hammers Strike Back!
I want Adelle's back-story, because one can never have enough Olivia.
pta16 | December 05, 22:25 CET
Also I know Joss wanted to give Summer a role outside her typecast, but Bennett was like a cross between River Tam and Cameron--a whole lot of crazy with unstable emotions, socially inept and a little bit sociopathic. If she wasn't nuts, she'd be the perfect girl-version of Topher... which is the entire point of her character, I suppose.
Anyone else find it a little squicky that Topher was turned on by her dead arm?
iwearthecheese | December 05, 22:35 CET
Tonya J | December 05, 22:40 CET
Simon | December 05, 23:00 CET
gossi | December 05, 23:02 CET
korkster | December 05, 23:03 CET
Simon | December 05, 23:13 CET
Yet if they were playing it straight... why?
I have no answers yet.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | December 05, 23:53 CET
Simon | December 05, 23:54 CET
Sunfire | December 06, 00:10 CET
hacksaway | December 06, 00:13 CET
Granted it was Cameron deliberately manipulating someone, but she certainly flirted a few times.
zz9 | December 06, 00:34 CET
I don't have a clue what the intention of the GPS was. Good question, dat.
I did wonder if Perrin did what he did in the end because he wanted to be prez.
gossi | December 06, 00:38 CET
I just took it as a nod to the Wesley/Faith shippers :)
[ edited by ShanshuBugaboo on 2009-12-06 00:43 ]
ShanshuBugaboo | December 06, 00:39 CET
My feeling is Bennet's memory is subjective. I suspect her claim of best friends is dubious too. Unlike Topher's gleeful abandon, Bennet seems to use her intelligence to rationalise everything, including her emotions and desires. Caroline made her feel physically powerless before. Now Echo's mental evolution threatens her equilibrium.
If you're the cleverest one in the room then you're the one that gets to survive, right? And she did make the Senator a better person so she's good, right? (Loved the Bush refs btw).
Politically I found the two episodes very astute. The clout that big money has on Capitol Hill is undeniable and anyone looking for further evidence of conspiracy would do no worse than investigate stories in the British press regarding Dr David Kelly.
And that was why I loved these two episodes so much tonight. The fantasy/sci fi element was upped but the truth of what was being discussed; Big Business grooming Politicians, Medical Research providing brilliant solutions, and simultaneously wasting resources, gave it a sweaty paranoia and made things seem more urgent. Time flew watching these little babies.
Re the arm connundrum - It drew parallels for me to Dr Saunders. Both have visible scars and core emotional ones too. And there is a great taboo regarding discussing sex and disabilty. Particularly in a society that has us worshipping airbrushed perfection.
I saw the GPS scene as more tense as I kept thinking "Alpha".
The whole two episodes played like one big chase scene. Breathless excitement. And then, at the end, as Echo wandered off down the street I couldn't help hearing the old "Incredible Hulk" theme tune. From the Bill Bixby series. And that's not me being rude it's high praise indeed. It conveyed that same sense of heading out on a journey that would not be easy, the same underlying sadness, and the same struggle with the beast within, the isolation and pain.
Aw bless.
viewingfigures | December 06, 00:43 CET
sab39 | December 06, 00:59 CET
Interesting to see where Perrin goes.
falina | December 06, 01:29 CET
Echo's getting extremely good at reading people at a glance.
"You can never tell what monsters people are hiding inside," says the woman nicknamed "Cin."
Echo doesn't react well to Boyd telling her it's treatment time, especially compared to Kilo a few moments before; definitely a bit of rebellion in her turn. He's interrupting her book!
"Cindy knows the top neurologists in the country." I bet she does.
"Inform her temporary handler he needn't return." Hah. I missed the significance of that the first time through. Interesting firing method Adelle's got...
Boyd's team got jumped by Cin's people, maybe? Intercepted somehow?
Madeline may be making a mistake -- but Ballard sure got told.
"...they'll start wondering about you." Bennett has been wondered about by Rossum, I do believe. Maybe she was Caroline's tech girl before she was theirs, and was drawn in by her wonder. Or by her "urges" for Caroline, if the jilted-lover angle is true? And she slips up a tiny bit, "I need this," before covering. Also tellingly: "Caroline. You always promised you'd come back to me." Not "for me," "to me."
"Who's to say?" Bennett is disenchanted with criticism of Rossum.
I like Bennett's mouth-quirk as she works.
Rossum needed a Senator and picked someone with "a pedigree." This tells you a lot about how they think and how they work. They could have taken anyone off the street and turned them into someone driven, but instead they went with someone from the "right kind of family."
"You know!" Bennett says, surprised. "That's good, it helps." Helps her with the torturing, that is...
"What else would you call it?" At first I thought that was just Bennett slipping -- but I think she actually hasn't been told the name, she really did come up with that on her own!
Evidence of a cut scene: there's an unexplained UPS van in the driveway of Perrin's place. No doubt borrowed. What can brown do for you?
Some of the senators in the hearing don't look at all surprised by Perrin's revelations.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | December 06, 01:47 CET
viewingfigures | December 06, 01:50 CET
kioria | December 06, 01:54 CET
One other thing that I completely misread on the first watching of the last episode: When Perrin testifies before the committe, an agent shows up with an ominous cardboard box, sets it on the floor and then pats his gun before Perrin speaks. I originally interpreted this as a bomb that they would use if Perrin went off script with his Rossum testimony. As it turns out, that box was filled with the 'evidence' of the supposed conspiracy against Rossum. After the conference, he carries the box to podium (or would that be a *rostrum*
MikeTMC (Jayne_Statue) | December 06, 03:02 CET
My current Facebook status:
"you're very pale. white. pinkish-white... your skin is like a pig... because it's pink... people assume that pigs are bad but I.. I love them....... I like them."
Absolutely adorable. I enjoyed the fact that Bennett was obviously quite dislikable, but at the same time I'm sure we were all squeeing at her and Topher together. It was so cute.
Enver's voice sounded pretty much exactly like Reed Diamond's before, and in this ep it sounded like Fran's. He's a STUPIDLY good actor. He can't actually exist.
dolldolldoll
It's like this show is just somewhere for him to give an acting masterclass.
p.s. DC Thingy had Adelle's hand down his pants. Minus the scrotum attack, I'm sure that's an enviable position to be in.
manreaction | December 06, 03:04 CET
zeitgeist | December 06, 04:15 CET
Not quite sure what you mean here, ManEnoughtoAdmitIt. It almost sounds as though you're saying Rossum is elitist, and pursuing a class-based strategy -- gotta have "one of us," as opposed to "one of them," etc. However, as Perrin himself said, the voters have the final say on who gets into office. I don't think Rossum's choice of Perrin was based on elitism, but on a simple pragmatic judgment. They needed a Senator, and they needed him as fast as possible. Who is it going to be easier to convince the voters to elect...a driven, well-spoken man who is a virtual unknown -- or a driven, well-spoken man from a political family who already has all the connections and fundraising ability? I know who I would go with if I were programming a senator and wanted my guy in office as fast as possible.
As for all the people who think Perrin is a reference to Bush and/or Kennedy, I did pick up on some of that. I am astonished, however, that the bit about "a junior senator with the ambition to be president," crusading for health care, transparency, and the exposure of various corporate secrets/misdeeds for the purpose of enforcing accountability, did not start ringing another set of Obama-shaped bells for seemingly anyone here. (Please note: I do not wish this to turn into a political discussion, so I will refrain from airing my own personal views on the three above-listed men. However, I couldn't help wondering if Perrin's about-face at the end of the episode, turning from principled crusader to a by-choice cooperator, doesn't reflect some disillusionment on the part of the writing staff toward Pres. Obama's tenure thus far.)
[Edited to change an awkward phrase]
[ edited by BAFfler on 2009-12-06 04:22 ]
BAFfler | December 06, 04:20 CET
BAFfler | December 06, 04:31 CET
I get your point about Barack Obama's rapid rise to power, but the fact is that it is a lot easier for a member of a powerful family to do so.
embers | December 06, 04:44 CET
I don't know of anyone who seriously makes the claim that we are a classless society. We do like to think, however, that our classes are fluid -- it allows us a sort of Horatio Alger-esque optimism that people can move up and better their lot, and it also allows us to shake our heads sadly at the Silas Laphams and Magnificent Ambersons of our society, who start at the top and work their way down. That is what Rossum threatens with their actions -- the great American Dream that you too can work your way into a better life -- with their class ossification.
Also, I think you misread my points about Obama. I said nothing about his rapid rise to power specifically. My point was that Perrin can be read as a partial analogue of Obama (with his concern for health care and transparency, his position as a crusading junior senator), in much the same way that he can be read as a partial analogue of Bush or Kennedy (checkered past and reformed present, comes from powerful moneyed family). I would imagine that you can find bits of all three men in him, and others as well. I did also note that there may be an analogy to be drawn between Perrin's turn away from principle and Obama's decisions in his first year. As Echo said (and then demonstrated to Perrin), your actions are ultimately a result of your own choice. But I'd rather not pursue that as a discussion topic...it was just something I noted in passing with a raised eyebrow while watching the episodes.
[ edited by BAFfler on 2009-12-06 05:04 ]
BAFfler | December 06, 04:59 CET
Sunfire | December 06, 05:05 CET
Loved the Topher two-fer, like most. All hail Enver, who was even funnier the second time around. But, my favorite LOL moment hasn't been mentioned, I think - Topher's reaction to the anonymous doll tumbling down the stairs after he activates the disruptor. That was great!
Also, Bennet saying what else could the disruptor be called wasn't a cover story for her already knowing its name, IMO. It was just another sign of how sympatico they were.
I wish they'd shown a waiter actually bringing in the drugged drink that Perrin swallowed. It would have made things clearer and wouldn't have taken any longer to show.
I don't think making the two runaways unconscious would be all that much help in finding them. I suppose maybe they'd be sent to a hospital or something by passers-by, assuming they were unconscious for a long time, so maybe that was the thinking. But it was just as likely to get them killed, as Topher noted.
Cindy and her goons showing up at Perrin's ancestral home just in time to save Echo is fan-wankable enough, since Cindy presumably knows her husband well. Still, a bit too convenient for me.
Cindy tells Madeline she didn't kill anybody, the Dollhouse did, which is the same thing Echo tells Perrin after he kills Cindy. Nice ironic symmetry there.
But telling a decent person they're not to blame? Doesn't help. At all. Madeline is partly crushed by what she's learned and Sierra took refuge in the Dollhouse again rather than live with the knowledge of what "she"'d done. Perrin, if he's not playing a double game, is in the same boat.Once the Dollhouse is in you, you're in the Dollhouse, forever. As Madeline can attest. Shiver.
If Perrin IS just playing along though, at Echo's behest, their double game got Madeline atticked (sp?), or at least made into a doll again. Shades of Caroline's crusade getting her boyfriend killed and Bennett hurt mentally and physically. It makes Bennett's "I know how you feel" to Madeline at the end of the episode even more resonant.
Personally, based on the cold indifference Perrin showed to Madeline's fate, I don't think he's just pretending - he's actually given in. But either way, she's screwed.
For Bennett, Caroline and Echo are fundamentally the same. A belief which, in another irony, all the broken returnees to the Dollhouse share in regards to themselves. I don't buy it any more than I did when Angel blamed himself for Angelus's deeds, but I understand the psychological underpinnings for thinking that way.
shambleau | December 06, 05:42 CET
My reading -- and I admit this is mostly based off of the interviews in "Man on the Street," not the most recent two -- is that Rossum is, in fact, not the prime mover but a useful tool of the money, that it is the latest method the rich elites are using to run the show. I think they already have several senators on the payroll, so to speak; the fastest way to get a senator, after all, is not to make one but to buy one, and there are plenty to be bought. But they wanted to make one of their own powerful, just like always.
Again, Rossum's a new element in an old, old game: that's my take. Rossum isn't trying to take over. It's just the company being used by the people who are already in charge and want to stay that way permanently.
The telling point? Perrin doesn't say that the voters get to decide; he facetiously asks if they get any input, and Rossum's agent replies, "They'll say yes!" Their minds will be made for them -- by methods far, far older than remote wipes. I'll misquote "Man on the Street" here: "Just sit back, relax, and wait for them to tell you who to vote for."
Then again, I'm convinced the show is a critique of all capitalism, so I may be seeing everything through that lens.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | December 06, 07:44 CET
I had to pause the tape to laugh. Really hard.
kishi | December 06, 07:54 CET
Caveats: Not impressed by "Mrs. Perrin" just leaving Ballard alone with the goons; bewildered by Adelle picking Echo for the "smear Perrin" mission. And I my opinion on the second episode may vary a bit depending on how well future episodes deal with the fallout from these revelations especially as it concerns Adelle defying a pretty direct "suggestion" and trying to sabotage Rossum plans; and hopefully a little explanation--why it was necessary to use Madeline for Dollhouse D.C.'s plan, whether the L.A. branch was a target or just collateral damage. And some of the Echo/Perrin dialogue didn't quite resonate with me.
But really, wow. Those are smallish qualms. Yesterday night gave a double-dose of mythology, a great, complex new chararacter, huge revelations everywhere, the best acting showcase for Enver yet, and, oh yeah, Topher/Topher (and Topher/Bennet) are wickedly funny too!
WilliamTheB | December 06, 08:25 CET
I disagree, I think seeing a waiter delivering food/drink in a scene like that is usually a major visual cue that something is about to go wrong. It's a little more mysterious to simply see him pass out. You're right, it would have clarified things straight away, but could have easily tipped the viewers off.
William- As far as Echo being sent out to Perrin, I'm pretty much with you in that any objective, rational person would have benched Echo to low-risk gigs ages ago. But I think the idea is that Adelle values Echo's ability to work outside parameters. She's had the opportunity to send her to the attic loads of times, but she keeps insisting that Echo can protect the house and use her skills to work a mission better than a regular active. So I can kind of see where she's coming from, and it nearly stands up to the fact that Eliza just gets more screen time than miscellaneous doll x.
FruityOatySaladbar | December 06, 08:52 CET
"What was interesting to me re: Victor was he seemed to be imprinted with the season one Topher, not the season two Topher."
Which might make good Doll-verse sense if the employees only back up their memories on wedges once in a while (twice a year, every few months, who knows). Although given how paranoid Topher is, you'd think he'd back himself up all the time (assuming it's not too time-consuming a process and wedges aren't ridiculously expensive). Actually, even if he does have a more recent imprint of himself, he probably would use an older version from before "Vows", so as to not risk his dealings with Claire/Whiskey and Sierra/Priya getting in the way of Victor-Topher doing his job as distraction-free as possible.
hopitopia said:
"RE: Enver's Topher, I thought it was interesting (albeit necessary) that he knew he was the "clone" Topher. Hence the hemming and hawing in the chair about sticking around. Brilliantly done."
If Topher had wanted, in theory he could have imprinted the new Topher to think that he always looked and felt like Victor, but then he wouldn't have been as compliant in getting wiped after his job was done (and even then, Topher still kinda had to surprise-wipe Vic-Topher). Even knowing he was the clone and knowing the original version of himself would still be alive and well, that'd be weird to basically suicide for the company (we saw the weirdness with this situation in "Haunted" as well with Adelle's friend--and there it almost seemed like the imprint would've been more eager to stay in the Active's body because her actual self was dead, but I guess she had a different idea of death, was just more accepting of it, didn't want to steal someone else's body, or something). Victor-Topher was a copy, but he still felt to himself like he was real.
Not to mention how hard it'd be to give up that body, doubt Topher takes the time/has the time to work out to get to that point. Then again, he might not care about that level of improvement for himself (we do know he cares about the looks/the superficialty of others though). It's interesting that, not episode-wise but chronology-wise, we get more messed up versions of personality/copy-in-body-considering-the-dilemma-of-keeping-body-versus-getting-wiped as we go. "Haunted", then "The Left Hand", and then Mr. Ambrose's chilling smackdown of Adelle and Topher in "Epitaph 1" over his ownership of Victor's body.
Far as Caroline/Echo go, who has more of a right to the body at this point and all that...If Caroline, the original Caroline, has already essentially been irreversably killed by that first wipe (because re-imprinting a personality back into its original body might not accomplish the same thing as, say, resurrecting Buffy, in terms of bringing back the same personality that was there in the first place), then re-imprinting the wedge-copy of Caroline onto what is now Echo's body might result in another murder (of Echo). It depends on how the brain accepts that re-imprinting, if there's seamless continuity-of-character.
Is it just like when a coma patient, one who's had relatively low brain activity, recovers/wakes up and is fine ? Does the brain just pick up where it left off and, since the body continued to live without its proper mind, it's still truly Caroline ? If not, then the damage has already been done, Caroline was murdered, and Echo has now inherited what used to be Caroline's body and has more of a right to it than a potential re-imprint of Caroline does.
And then of course, when they re-imprint Caroline onto that body, Echo's been killed and Caroline 2.0 should not be murdered.
Depending on how it works, a whole lotta murders-of-the-mind could happen to that body. Echo retains fragments of memories and has continuity of herself between engagements somehow, but if a permanent, full personality that sticks, such as Caroline's, is put over her/replaces her again, she's essentially dead/gone. Unless the two personalities can somehow co-exist together without compromising eachother.
Kris | December 06, 10:03 CET
Okay, the mind-murder thing... Whether or not I'd consider it murder depends on, well, I guess I'm thinking it's more of a body/soul issue, and about determining the connection between mind and soul (or the physicality of one's essence, if the soul doesn't exist). I more or less equate these false personalities or the absence of personality, in the case of dolls, to a dream or hallucination. Fractured consciousness exists in our world, and when someone cures a schizophrenic or a case of dissociative identity disorder it is certainly a loss of consciousness, but I would never consider it murder because it wasn't real in the first place. Now, the actives losing memories of things that really happened along with fabricated personae draws a lot of parallels to Alzheimer's. And the fear Echo and doll Perrin feel is relatable, it ties into what we think is going to happen after death. This is where it gets fuzzy for me, and very interesting, because the actives lose experiences that truly occurred. So a consciousness was created with the ability to remember, and the loss of memory is a kind of death, hmmm… Bottom line, it seems most like dissociative identity. Another person exists up there and has actual experiences, but can be wiped away to allow the real person to function normally.
With Echo, it seems she won’t have to worry about any of that because she has a weird spongy brain, so I guess she can quit complaining, haha.
FruityOatySaladbar | December 06, 10:57 CET
Mainly, I think Victopher just seemed less burdened than Topher, which reminded me more of the character in season one than in season two. Then again, that could have just been the relatively safe and familiar confines of his lab not prompting any need in the imprint to go to the burdened place, rather than any deliberate imprinting of current memories but earlier persona.
But I'd definitely find it more fascinating for Topher to have mixed and matched rather than simply doing a complete current dump. Maybe memories are easier to copy and backup than is persona, so he makes regular memory dumps but less frequent persona dumps.
The One True b!X | December 06, 11:05 CET
And after this episode, my dislike for Caroline becomes more pronounced. Plus, she signed her body away (regardless of what pressure she was put under - which hopefully we'll see in a flashback soon), whilst Echo wants to keep it, and is a genuinely selfless person (I'm gonna use that word, as in season 2 I'm seeing Echo as a person in her own right, not a blank slate), who ASKS to be imprinted if it can help a friend.
"I'm scared of Caroline. If she comes back, where will I go?"
^ probably paraphrased. But still, it really resonated with me.
manreaction | December 06, 11:28 CET
alqualond | December 06, 11:38 CET
[ edited by gossi on 2009-12-06 13:20 ]
gossi | December 06, 13:18 CET
Was that piece of dialogue in the greenhouse the most complex in the history of television?
"They killed her. If you let them make you forget then you killed her. Can you live with that?"
Hwwwaarr. Head. Hurts. Who's on first?
zaphod | December 06, 13:34 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | December 06, 13:44 CET
hopitopia | December 06, 14:26 CET
bivith | December 06, 14:28 CET
So they strip you down to the minimum and still there's the desire to live and the drive to be oneself. To me Echo is Caroline's DOS system. Or as husbando says "Echo is the ETFS to Caroline's Windows".
bubblecat | December 06, 15:04 CET
gossi | December 06, 15:09 CET
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWCN8-cVLSU
viewingfigures | December 06, 15:59 CET
Many people have reported "near death" experiences in which they separate from their body, see other things that are going on that they could not possibly otherwise know, and remember these things upon being saved from death. Or, consider stories of ghosts.
If either of these are true, it suggests an essence of a person separate from the body for at least some period of time following the death of the body. Could this essence be extinguished by a brain wipe? Presumably not, if it could exist outside the body as a separately identifiable essence/soul for some period of time before - well, whatever happens to you after death according to your religious beliefs. To GoldDust's point, how that essence is tied to a particular body is another interesting question.
Edit to add: And if the essence/soul can eventually supersede the programmed personality/memories, theoretically this allows for an eventual upbeat ending following Epitaph One, although I don't know that Joss is necessarily one for upbeat endings.
[ edited by eyes of the world on 2009-12-06 16:55 ]
eyes of the world | December 06, 16:50 CET
Here's what I'm noticing: Echo cares. Caroline cares about specific things (animals, bringing down Rossum) and less so about other things (perhaps, if Bennett's memory is accurate, other people).
So I'm thinking gossi's right. Caroline is the more complicated and more programmed (by society), whereas Echo is who Caroline would be if Caroline had been raised in isolation and didn't have the ideas of animals = cute and good, Rossum = automatically evil. I think Caroline's reactions to Rossum's lab in "Echoes" sets us up for this: she films the animal cages, totally ignoring everything else, and her boyfriend has to practically drag her to notice something else.
Hah, maybe this ties in with my big theory, too... perhaps Joss is commenting on society more deeply than I suspected. Perhaps he's saying we're all Dolls, programmed by the people in our lives, and we've all got that Doll-like blindness and naivete to everything else when we get outside our comfort zone.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | December 06, 17:25 CET
JossIzBoss | December 06, 18:35 CET
[ETA: I think Fetus means technically in the womb, but I don't know what the term would be]
[ edited by DeezyG on 2009-12-06 18:59 ]
DeezyG | December 06, 18:58 CET
"Glasses on a chain!"
"For the win!"
If I wasn't in love with Fran and Enver before, their delivery of that conversation has put them on par with NPH for sheer adorableness.
iluvmusicals | December 06, 19:23 CET
I swear there's a second reference to this person at one point that makes it a bit more specific, or at least in a way that rules Bennett out. But I can't remember what it was, where it was said, or whether or not I'm simply misremembering. It might have been in Echoes, but I'd have to skim through and see.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2009-12-06 21:23 ]
The One True b!X | December 06, 21:23 CET
gossi | December 06, 21:30 CET
Sunfire | December 06, 22:11 CET
I hope it's not going to be another one - five years before we ever see him on our screens again.
Little Green Kid | December 06, 23:26 CET
Ah, all right. I didn't remember that bit from Echoes (one thing more to do in the next few days, especially if gossi suggests it). "The Left Hand" left me pretty curious to find out what happened between Caroline's escape from the hospital and her "surrender" to Adelle, the consequences she couldn't live with, and that was a part of the show I thought we wouldn't get any new information on- hope I'm proven wrong!
alqualond | December 07, 02:53 CET
What this is, is Fred/Ilyria all over again. After Fred was destroyed as Ilyria took over and even though Fred's soul was destroyed as well, Fred still leaked into Ilyria, so that the two co-merged and Fred essentially reappeared. So what is new here? Fred had Ilyria played into her, just as Caroline has Echo poured into her. But Caroline is coming out, and Echo is a construct who never existed before Topher wrote her program; ever her memories are just part of the program, never existed by and large, and so yet more reason not to care.
Dana5140 | December 07, 03:56 CET
Tonya J | December 07, 04:14 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | December 07, 04:20 CET
First, what were we seeing when Topher looked out the window of Bennett's office? Was that the D.C. Dollhouse? Cause if so, damn...
Also, one thing I kinda noticed the first time around, but really appreciated the second time, was Bennett's reaction when Topher said she was beautiful. She looked confused, like that was just silly, and completely dismissed the idea.
Later, when Topher said her work on Perrin's brain was beautiful, she smiled, and was totally flattered. I thought that was an adorable contrast.
First time through I thought Alexis was good. No problems, but he didn't really have a big showy part, like Summer, or Enver. But this time I thought he was just excellent. Really noticed Eliza's fine work this time, too. I realized when they were together toward the end of 'Left Hand' that I wasn't seeing Wesley and Faith, at all. I was definitely seeing Perrin and Echo. Nicely done, both of them.
Also, whoever above (sorry, don't remember who it was) pointed out Echo's line, "They killed her. If you let them make you forget, then you killed her. Can you live with that?" Fabulous line, and yeah, quite complicated for a doll. An evolving doll, but still. Thank you for pointing that out.
guidedby | December 07, 07:00 CET
gossi | December 07, 07:57 CET
The GPS-removal made sense to me. Now the Dollhouses can't find them, so it sets up for future archy (I suppose). The only reason they were found was because they went back to a "known" safe-place, so it would be one of the first places for the handlers to go look. (Pretty stupid on their part, but Perrin didn't have a clue about what to do, and Echo was Echo).
Regarding Perrin's "shift" at the end. I took it to mean that he didn't run away with Echo, and let the "badder" guys bring him in. This resulted in the wipe and re-newed memories. So my question is if Rossum always planned to "kill" Mrs. Perrin?
Loved Summer as Bennett. Yes, there were moments that were River-y, but they were completely in line with her character. What "reminded" me most about River in Summers acting (as compared to Cameron), was her fabulous "face-acting". Summer has an enormous range in expressions which she can seemingly flip on and off at any given moment. (Sort of like what Alan did with Alpha).
Can't wait for next week and the coming episodes.
strix | December 07, 13:19 CET
Golddust- I think you miss my point. I am not saying it is not possible to care for a "not real" character- all characters are not real. What I am saying is, it is hard to care for these characters because none of them have any reality- they are all not who they seem to be, and because their characters (as portrayed on the show) are so mutable, who is it in them we are supposed to care for? Look at Echo. Echo is a doll; she is not real. What she is, is Topher's programming. In reality, she is Caroline. But we know little about Caroline, and what we do know does not really give us reason to much care about her. And now she is more than Echo anyway; she is all of the programs that were poured into her. There is no one person in Echo, as a base, that we care what happens to her. Or, to be clear, that I care what happens to her.
PS. I think Victopher was an acting tour de force. Enver Gjokai is amazing.
Dana5140 | December 07, 14:13 CET
I think with the introduction of the dollhouse upper management, and Glau's dollhouse, Joss has answered the criticisms of many fans, that there is noone to root for and associate possitively with, by making Topher, Adelle, Boyd, etc, more sympathetic, and "less bad" than the truly immoral other house ("I think your bad guys are badder than my bad guys".
I am genuinely rooting for them now(even though I know from E1 they're gonna fail).
With the reintroduction of Alpha next week, this show is really going to kick up to another level.
mortimer | December 09, 02:48 CET
Eh? I think one of the most obvious things they're exploring this season is that Echo is real. Just like how Whiskey didn’t want to get her original memories restored because “she doesn’t want to die.” When you create a being with real human emotions (that go beyond what the programmer intended) then they instantly become more than just a "doll." I think it's a mistake to view them like the more unsavoury DH worker bees would.
vampmogs | December 11, 11:06 CET
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