January 09 2010
(SPOILER)
Discuss the eleventh episode of Dollhouse season 2.
Titled 'Getting Closer', this episode is written and directed by Tim Minear. And if you missed it, the episode is now available to watch for free at the Fox site and Hulu and is available for purchase at iTunes.
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Individual posts are copyright their respective authors
This is a non-profit, unofficial website, not affiliated with Mutant Enemy, Inc., 20th Century Fox, Warner Brothers or UPN.
[ edited by bedukay on 2010-01-09 01:46 ]
bedukay | January 09, 01:46 CET
katetwo | January 09, 01:46 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 01:51 CET
At least it's sure to be an awesome ride through.
BamSaidTheLady | January 09, 01:54 CET
deepgirl187 | January 09, 02:02 CET
CellarDoor | January 09, 02:05 CET
LaneMeyer | January 09, 02:08 CET
gossi | January 09, 02:12 CET
madmolly | January 09, 02:41 CET
Dollhouse's 'normal time' is 9 p.m. ET. Always has been.
The Dark Shape | January 09, 02:42 CET
ceo | January 09, 02:49 CET
shambleau | January 09, 03:01 CET
BamSaidTheLady | January 09, 03:02 CET
YAY!
toygrief | January 09, 03:03 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 03:03 CET
buffywrestling | January 09, 03:06 CET
I won't admit to the man-reaction, however.
The Dark Shape | January 09, 03:08 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 03:08 CET
First reaction:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For a few seconds I couldn't breathe.
ETA: OK, so two things that bothered me: 1) The flashbacks with Caroline and Bennet were kind of disappointing, mostly because the show keeps problematizing Caroline and giving us reasons to think poorly of her and then redeeming her. Caroline does use Bennet and presumably leads to people's deaths, but we're still left with Caroline's apparent abandonment of Bennet turning out to be Caroline's heroism, and Bennet's anger at Caroline being over, basically, a misunderstanding. Less interesting.
2) The thing missing from Paul is his feeling for Echo. That still relies on us understanding the Echo/Paul 4eva plotline, which doesn't make sense to me; I'm not sure that the satirical look at Ballard that underlined most of his season one story--which I thought was terrific, incidentally--is gone or anything, but it's seeming harder and harder to find.
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-01-09 03:20 ]
WilliamTheB | January 09, 03:11 CET
As Cordelia would say; "Great. Now I'm going to be stuck with serious thoughts all
dayweek."I will leave this thread unspoiled, but I am very very pained that
I have to wait a week.
Illyria | January 09, 03:14 CET
DetectiveYelsew | January 09, 03:14 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | January 09, 03:16 CET
bonzob | January 09, 03:16 CET
BamSaidTheLady | January 09, 03:16 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 03:20 CET
embers | January 09, 03:22 CET
toygrief | January 09, 03:23 CET
The thing taken from Paul was his feelings for Echo. My guess was that his romantic memories of Echo were taken. Almost the same thing =p
dispatch | January 09, 03:27 CET
Let's start off with: that Echo was always a special imprint, by design and not just through sheer force of will, is something I've been expecting/hoping for a while. And for the person to be in charge of this to be her handler is kind of incredible. Of course Boyd only came in after about a year of Echo's being an active. But she didn't start compositing, to my knowledge, until afterwards. Whether it's because he was there to change something in the mix, or whether he only became directly involved after Echo had shown some kind of sign, it does kind of make sense, too, that there would be a waiting period.
I'm not sure if season one Langton fits with the new model. But I feel kind of certain that season two does. Going after Claire for purely romantic reasons? Maybe. Going after her for romantic reasons AND as a sleeper? Yes. Letting Echo get away with everything that she's gotten away with because he wants to protect her? Maybe. Letting her get away with everything because HE is the one deliberately trying to get her to grow and Become? Yes. Having the connections as an ex-cop to make Nolan disappear so convincingly that Rossum never looks into it? Possibly. Having the connections as the fucking HEAD OF THE CORPORATION? Yes.
There might be another twist coming--it's not really Boyd or something, which would be a huge cheat. I don't want this to invalidate Boyd's previous material in the series entirely--I don't want to see Boyd not at all caring about Echo, and for all of "True Believer," e.g., to be a lie. But he's been a question mark to me for so long, and a deliberately cultivated one, who happens to be so instantly likeable that no one would question him...well, it kind of makes sense. Which scares me. This show is playing high stakes right now, and with only two episodes left it's for keeps.
WilliamTheB | January 09, 03:32 CET
Ha, I thought for a minute, and now I might say 2nd best? Not cause it aint good, but because Firefly really, really wasn't given a chance, and it was good from "go".
[ edited by CaptainB on 2010-01-09 03:36 ]
CaptainB | January 09, 03:33 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 03:35 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 03:40 CET
typo edited
[ edited by Canis_Latrans on 2010-01-09 03:43 ]
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 03:42 CET
Chrisham2 | January 09, 03:45 CET
toygrief | January 09, 03:47 CET
Canonical | January 09, 03:51 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 03:51 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 03:51 CET
dispatch | January 09, 03:51 CET
edcsLover9 | January 09, 03:51 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | January 09, 03:51 CET
BamSaidTheLady | January 09, 03:52 CET
C. A. Bridges | January 09, 03:52 CET
Revolver | January 09, 03:52 CET
Giles'chainsawchick | January 09, 03:52 CET
Dawnfire87 | January 09, 03:52 CET
And yes, Dollhouse is awesome. I'm not sure it could have ever been a break away pop hit, but it is definitely something really special.
embers | January 09, 03:52 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 03:53 CET
buffywrestling | January 09, 03:53 CET
Also, enjoyed seeing the Boyd/Saunders scene from "Epitaph One" in context.
ItsOnlyCody | January 09, 03:53 CET
Chrisham2 | January 09, 03:53 CET
C. A. Bridges | January 09, 03:53 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 03:55 CET
Anyone else really impressed with Fran Kranz's work this season? He's really stepped up.
ItsOnlyCody | January 09, 03:57 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 03:57 CET
alcabongTV | January 09, 03:57 CET
buffywrestling | January 09, 03:58 CET
buffywrestling | January 09, 03:58 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 03:59 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 03:59 CET
alcabongTV | January 09, 03:59 CET
Canonical | January 09, 03:59 CET
Dawnfire87 | January 09, 03:59 CET
ItsOnlyCody | January 09, 03:59 CET
alcabongTV | January 09, 03:59 CET
WHAT??
toygrief | January 09, 04:00 CET
ItsOnlyCody | January 09, 04:00 CET
Revolver | January 09, 04:00 CET
Chrisham2 | January 09, 04:00 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 04:00 CET
Lioness | January 09, 04:01 CET
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
streetartist | January 09, 04:01 CET
I think that's all I can coherently say.
Arison | January 09, 04:01 CET
edcsLover9 | January 09, 04:02 CET
Nebula1400 | January 09, 04:02 CET
anythingbutgrief | January 09, 04:02 CET
fortunateizzi | January 09, 04:02 CET
waxbanks | January 09, 04:02 CET
Boyd
Second time in two days I've said that.Between this and the Buffy #34 reveal.Good God.
Grand episode tonight.
Buffyfantic | January 09, 04:03 CET
zombiecow | January 09, 04:03 CET
sonofyork | January 09, 04:03 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 04:04 CET
First poor adorable Bennet, then Saunders was evil... and Boyd!?!?!?
I can't believe it. How? Why!?!?
SteppeMerc | January 09, 04:04 CET
BOYD??!!?!?!
Boyd (or, actually, Boyd 1.0) must have been a vessel for one of the Clydes (or maybe Clyde's partner?). Already was a "doll" maybe, and so maybe "Boyd" as we know him now really is a good guy. So Caroline will get a mind frak when she sees him.
Ronald_SF | January 09, 04:04 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 04:04 CET
Mew | January 09, 04:05 CET
alcabongTV | January 09, 04:06 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 04:06 CET
MySerenity | January 09, 04:06 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | January 09, 04:06 CET
waxbanks | January 09, 04:07 CET
Elphaba | January 09, 04:07 CET
WHAT WHAT WHAT
MY BRAIN HAS EXPLODED
also, please no buffy 34 spoilers in this thread. please!
medea culpa | January 09, 04:08 CET
Dorian's Kitten | January 09, 04:08 CET
Still love you guys though.
madmolly | January 09, 04:09 CET
alcabongTV | January 09, 04:09 CET
Embers, looking at your comment above and had to laugh at what we were thinking, just 20 minutes ago.
Joss, you did this to us? Again? Twice? In the span of ten minutes?
Thou art an evil man indeed.
Ronald_SF | January 09, 04:10 CET
The Epitaph One scene between Claire and Boyd--do you think they were really Claire and Boyd there? Or their secret personas? Or have they been eevil all along, since last February?
[ edited by CaptainB on 2010-01-09 04:12 ]
CaptainB | January 09, 04:10 CET
Prediction: I think Saunders/Whiskey is Topher's biological sister.
xMadxScientistx | January 09, 04:10 CET
palehorse | January 09, 04:10 CET
My mind is screwed. I'm so confused.
When Claire started talking to Bennett, I just had this feeling something bad was going to happen. I should have seen it coming... I thought she might be going after the imprint... Heavens was I wrong. I'm in utter shock.
PaperSpock | January 09, 04:11 CET
http://tinyurl.com/ysdzqy
buffywrestling | January 09, 04:11 CET
anythingbutgrief | January 09, 04:12 CET
whedon is GOD | January 09, 04:12 CET
I thought tonight also held some of Ms. Glau's best work. I love that Caroline hadn't just left her for dead, but rather this girl's fragile understanding of friendship just couldn't bear a loss.
Yowza that was a good episode. I'm going to miss this show so very much. Can I get a "wah"?
streetartist | January 09, 04:12 CET
crippledlion | January 09, 04:12 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 04:13 CET
We've been waiting for Boyd's backstory and boy did we get it...
Ranrata | January 09, 04:13 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 04:14 CET
edcsLover9 | January 09, 04:15 CET
Summer Glau is credited for the final 2 episodes. One has to wonder how Bennett will factor in with a bullet in her head.
ItsOnlyCody | January 09, 04:15 CET
Can we preorder the season two DVDs yet. Want. Now.
... And when does the latest episode load up on Hulu?? Need to rewatch.
NYPinTA | January 09, 04:16 CET
[ edited by ItsOnlyCody on 2010-01-09 04:18 ]
ItsOnlyCody | January 09, 04:16 CET
My two favorite characters and they're going to take out the house...
Sid the Wily Dairy Gnome | January 09, 04:17 CET
Also, agree that she was great tonight. Her facial reactions to Topher at the beginning were great. It makes me think of River's line "the way people talking without talking" (or something like that).
Also agree that Tim Minear hit a homerun, triple play, whatever else is a good metaphor.
CaptainB | January 09, 04:20 CET
I'm not understanding why Boyd would have helped Echo re-Caroline, while Saunders acted to prevent this very same thing from happening. Maybe there are two different agendas at work?
Or maybe Boyd has been trying to bring Dollhouse down all along? Why else would he want to help bring the original Caroline back? But then why would he be in the same room cooperating with Clyde 5.0? So confusing!
Maybe we need to do a recap of Boyd's actions from S1 and S2, which included giving Echo the security key card...
[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2010-01-09 04:22 ]
Ronald_SF | January 09, 04:20 CET
Chrisham2 | January 09, 04:20 CET
Re: Boyd. Wow.
crazygolfa | January 09, 04:21 CET
wenxina | January 09, 04:23 CET
etoile | January 09, 04:23 CET
Ok I need to re-watch everything with that reveal in mind and see if I can make any sense of it. Also I was thinking Saunders shot Bennett because she just hated Topher that much, not because she was programmed to, but I guess not.
kimkim | January 09, 04:24 CET
[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2010-01-09 04:25 ]
Ronald_SF | January 09, 04:24 CET
Still weeping forever.
Arison | January 09, 04:24 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 04:25 CET
Ronald_SF | January 09, 04:25 CET
AngelDiva | January 09, 04:25 CET
Who else thinks there's a chance this show could have been the best of Joss' four shows IF given a chance?
I agree with someone else above that I think Firefly still owns my heart. At the same time, for whatever reasons we may like one series over the other, I think Joss is someone who continues to improve the technique of his craft. His show concepts are designed to give him room to break rules, including some of his own. I'm all giddy to think of what he'll do in the future! :)
[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2010-01-09 04:28 ]
[ edited by Ronald_SF on 2010-01-09 04:28 ]
Ronald_SF | January 09, 04:27 CET
eddy | January 09, 04:27 CET
xMadxScientistx | January 09, 04:34 CET
-pretty sure we've seen evidence (in "Echoes" and with TOpher's brain wipe in "The Public Eye" that he is not/never was a doll (I think we've been told former dolls are left with "residual architecture" or some such phlebotinum that means an ex-doll would still be affected by things that affect dolls, but tell me if I'm wrong).
-Seems clear from his neck-snap trick that his (current) motivation is not identical to Rossum's.
So three basic categories of possible story arc for him (I think):
1. He is head of Rossum, but has always had a secret plan that the rest of the company doesn't know of.
2. He is/was head of Rossum, but discovered something along the line that made him want to go a different direction (which change could've been motivated by either good or bad goals).
3. His appearance as head of Rossum was always some weird blackmarket "acting" job he took on, and this was how he found out about the Dollhouse -- the "real" head hired a guy (through one of the "Clydes") to appear to Caroline as the boss. This is, of course, the by far least likely scenario, but I do like the psychology of the Boss not letting anyone see his "real" face. (A subset of this scenario is that one of the "clydes" managed to pull an "echo" and get more self aware and take over, hence the need to use a fake in the role of Rossum boss).
Any other basic categories of possible backstories I'm missing?
ETA: one weird thing to account for: being the evil and/or misunderstood genius atop a biotech firm might explain, as someone mentioned, some of how you can make sure no one looks too closely at the disappearance of Priya's rapist, and might also help with creating a cover identity as an-ex cop. But it doesn't explain how that same guy ended up with a very real assortment of cop/military skills that seem to include everything from "normal" cop and army/marine skills to hands-on experience with being a "cleaner." Where, without doll-implants, would he have gotten those skills while building and running his biotech firm?
[ edited by thirdflower on 2010-01-09 04:50 ]
thirdflower | January 09, 04:35 CET
Usually couples are given a bit more time for on-screen bliss before one is offed (Jenny, Tara, Fred, Wash, Penny, etc.), but they're on a schedule here and otherwise it's a standard-issue Jossing. Nobody should be TOO surprised.
phong | January 09, 04:36 CET
bdh_girl | January 09, 04:38 CET
xMadxScientistx | January 09, 04:38 CET
eddy | January 09, 04:42 CET
It's too bad nobody gave this show a chance. My brother asked what I was watching and then he said oh the show about people being prostitutes and doing whatever they want. He then proceeded to say that it just sounded way too stupid to bother watching. Ugh if only people actually watched a show rather than listen to a one sentence summary.
hmvb15 | January 09, 04:44 CET
Of course, this could also wind up a double bluff. It's possible Boyd was captured and programmed to play the role that Rossum needs him to play, and Whisky reprogrammed with sleeper programming. And the original Caroline wedge being missing may contain the real memory of who the Rossum head is, and the damaged backup wedge reprogrammed with a false memory to go along with the imprinted Boyd.
It's even still possible that Ivy was the one who did all the reprogramming... Clyde 2.0's current form.
That Joss, he keeps us a guessin'
IMForeman | January 09, 04:54 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 04:55 CET
ScullyWant2B | January 09, 04:55 CET
eddy | January 09, 04:56 CET
So now I'm really thinking that the Echo/Whiskey fight in the teaser is going to end with a certain jealous lover coming to save Echo's ass. "Whiskey, let Echo be first."
I love that I no longer have to sob great gallons of tears when I watch Epitaph One thinking that Whiskey is still waiting for Boyd ten years later. She's a bitch, and she deserves her fate. (Or does she? What's her motivation?)
Not out of empathy, but maybe Topher's right. Shouldn't Bennett still be sitting in a hard drive somewhere? Wouldn't that be standard practice? She's an important asset to Rossum DC.
Arsenal | January 09, 05:02 CET
But really, we've only peeled part of the onion, haven't we? Is Boyd really bad?
Oh god. Too much to take in.
Genius.
phlebotinin | January 09, 05:06 CET
xMadxScientistx | January 09, 05:12 CET
Brett | January 09, 05:13 CET
azzers | January 09, 05:15 CET
xMadxScientistx | January 09, 05:15 CET
IMForeman | January 09, 05:16 CET
[ edited by embers on 2010-01-09 05:19 ]
embers | January 09, 05:17 CET
Agreed about Whiskey not necessarily being a bitch. She's a doll who has been manipulated. This actually makes her waiting for Boyd in Epitaph One all the more sad in a way. (But -- wait. Why *is* she waiting for Boyd?! Ack! Crazy confused now. Must stop wildly speculating and just see how it all plays out.)
Poor Whiskey doll. I wonder who she was in life before being put in the chair for the first time.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2010-01-09 05:22 ]
phlebotinin | January 09, 05:17 CET
eddy | January 09, 05:20 CET
This episode was baked with goodness and then iced with awesome. Bennett is dead! Mellie is back! Boyd is evil! Saunders is back AND evil!
I love how we're seeing Caroline's "origin".
The past few episodes have been epic and are only going to get better.
Riker | January 09, 05:22 CET
UnderTheDark | January 09, 05:23 CET
Oh Bennet. Oh Topher.
Again: I don't know if this episode provided any new insight into Caroline; we already kinda knew she was a terrorist against Rossum, and Bennet already told us that she used people (her!). And Ballard losing his love for Echo is a bit strange because I still don't think we have any clue what those feelings are. A lot depends on how the next episodes play out these two character arcs (Caroline's and Paul's--Mellie's return bodes well) and how Boyd, Claire's motivations play out. But, you know, wow, nonetheless.
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-01-09 05:25 ]
WilliamTheB | January 09, 05:23 CET
Joss, you are EVIL.
EricNJB | January 09, 05:25 CET
Actually, I got a mad Willow/Buffy feeling from Bennett/Caroline, especially their cute introduction.
"Arsenal how can you say Whiskey is a bitch? She is a doll who was manipulated by Boyd into being his 'sleeper' killer.... She is innocent. Him? Not so much."
Like I said, we really don't know her motivations. But I get a strong impression (especially from the teaser) that she's not a sleeper, and is consciously working for Boyd. Manipulated maybe, but still conscious. Besides, doesn't that make it more interesting, icky and complicated?
[ edited by Arsenal on 2010-01-09 05:27 ]
Arsenal | January 09, 05:26 CET
[ edited by EricNJB on 2010-01-09 05:28 ]
EricNJB | January 09, 05:27 CET
thirdflower | January 09, 05:27 CET
Suffice to say, I will never watch any program on Fox EVER again. Want to hurt them more? Scorched earth policy. Write down advertisers on Fox contact them and tell them you will not buy their products. And Rossum thinks Caroline is a terrorist? She's showing the way for us.
Riverine | January 09, 05:29 CET
"And Rossum thinks Caroline is a terrorist? She's showing the way for us."
Good, now the NSA is reading whedonesque. Thanks for that. :p
[ edited by Arsenal on 2010-01-09 05:31 ]
Arsenal | January 09, 05:30 CET
UnderTheDark | January 09, 05:33 CET
How about this: Boyd's ultimate goal as co-head of Rossum was to develop the ability to imprint oneself with multiple (tens? hundreds? thousands?) personalities, while still retaining your own identity. This would give the user almost God-like knowledge. That's Boyd's endgame!
For whatever reason, the tech was limited to one mental occupant at at time - humans had to be wiped clean, and then imprinted. Perhaps experiments were done - perhaps Alpha himself was an intentional "mistake" - really, an experiment in compositing that failed.
And then came Caroline. For whatever reason, he saw something in her that could/would be the key to his endgame. So, he took her in, he stacked up all the dominoes, he put all the pieces in place, and sure enough, she was able to function as multiple people simultaneously.
Now, he's going to do whatever it is he has to do to get that ability for himself, perhaps dump a million people's worth of knowledge into his head, and become a kind of Superman (think Nietzsche not Clark Kent).
Just one fan's guess at the endgame.
Gut reactions to the ep:
-Someone said this before, but I agree: this has a Season 5 Angel feel to it. A very rapid and satisfying wrapup to the series.
-Ignoring my little theory above, and not to criticize the episode, which I thoroughly enjoyed as much as any episode of BtVS/Angel/Firefly, but I'm hoping (and a bit nervous) for a coherent explanation for why Boyd let the LA Dollhouse Gang get so far into their plot. He permitted the infiltration of the Attic, he let them snatch Bennett, he let Topher reconstruct the Caroline imprint... he even let Echo get in the chair. Why? Bring it home, Mutant Enemy.
-I don't think Whiskey was imprinted to take down Bennett. I think that was the Dr. Saunders from that amazing scene early in this season (the one in the back room with Topher), getting some payback - showing him he's not the only one who can control emotions, not the only one with power.
-Not to troll (or flame, or whatever the slang is) but, note to Lost writers: this is how you wrap up a show.
[ edited by AMCsoldier on 2010-01-09 05:36 ]
AMCsoldier | January 09, 05:33 CET
Ella78 | January 09, 05:38 CET
Also, how long do you think they've known about this? Since the beginning? I'm so curious to when this development was... well, developed. So many answers. I cannot wait until the Dollhouse post mortem interviews (except that the show will be over and all).
I also love that even though I'm a huge spoiler lover, none of the ending was spoilered for me and I loved every minute of it. Thank you Joss and co for not letting this one leak.
nuccbko | January 09, 05:43 CET
sportforredneck | January 09, 05:45 CET
ardentdelerium | January 09, 05:57 CET
nuccbko | January 09, 06:09 CET
I hope he really is the clear cut asshole leader of rossum rather than an adelle-ish fakeout. It was an extremely powerful reveal and it'd be a shame to ruin that.
Also never experienced fanboyism until Topher, so well done Dollhouse. I'll just go on pretending he likes men.
Progressive_Stupidity | January 09, 06:14 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 06:16 CET
Arison | January 09, 06:31 CET
nna_funk | January 09, 06:38 CET
ABRAMSology.com | January 09, 06:50 CET
In that moment, Adelle was Miss Parker.
nasarius | January 09, 06:52 CET
though my favorite line was probably when victor says "gingersnap" to the sleeper for the code. AWESOME. otherwise, i have no coherent words.
wonderchat | January 09, 07:01 CET
I think Claire's killing Bennet was simply about hurting Topher and had little or nothing to do with the plan whatever that may be.
I can't remember "Echoes" but wasn't Boyd proven to be not an active in that one. Like Adelle, Topher and Dominic.
I think Boyd is Boyd and always has been nothing sleeper about him. Just a fake backstory to put him where he wanted to be.
Gotta admit the reveal floored me.
I won't lie I was sure Topher had just set Ivy free for us to learn its her, lol. Classic story telling set someone up as a "bad guy" only to reveal it was misdirection so we don't see them as an actual "bad guy". And since "Spy In the House of Love" I've been waiting for that card to be played with Ivy and I'm glad to be wrong.
Also I think Bennett was angry with Carloine because she made it clear that she picked her no matter what and Caroline didn't. She knew that Caroline had saved her, she didn't want to be saved she wanted to be taken prisoner with the only person who'd ever shown her true attention. Caroline broke her heart is all. Point being I don't think there were any misunderstandings on Bennett's end.
theMidnighter | January 09, 07:02 CET
Imagine if they aired five full seasons before pulling the trigger on that.
b!X | January 09, 07:10 CET
The actor playing Clyde has already been revealed.
Nate Dushku
AngelDiva | January 09, 07:14 CET
hacksaway | January 09, 07:14 CET
Anyways, what if was Boyd? Maybe he was trying to get Paul into the Dollhouse to protect Echo? I mean, only he would know the true nature of Rossum's purpose.
Just a theory. It's probably wrong, but was just something I was thinking about.
nuccbko | January 09, 07:17 CET
hopitopia | January 09, 07:18 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 07:22 CET
Tonya J | January 09, 07:26 CET
josswhedonaddict | January 09, 07:39 CET
If that wasn't the intention, I doubt there's much time for another explanation.
Arsenal | January 09, 07:42 CET
iwearthecheese | January 09, 07:46 CET
Taaroko | January 09, 07:50 CET
Honestly, it was not nearly as effective as past deaths mostly because there was no real development of Topher and Bennett's relationship--they were just in their fledgling stages of romance. However, I guess since there was no order for a full season there was no time to properly execute another Joyce/Tara/Wash.
iwearthecheese | January 09, 07:54 CET
Tonya J | January 09, 07:59 CET
DO you think they'll ever tell us if Whiskey was programmed or if she just wanted to? Maybe it's like what Dominic says in E1 after he takes a walk outside- the world had gone to shit so people didn't seem to find the need to restrain themselves in doing what they wanted (something with a grown man acting like a little girl). Maybe Whiskey stuck it to Topher because she knew it was unlikely that things would get better.
I don't think Whiskey is a sleeper. I think Boyd loved her and she him. I mean, a cut-up doctor doesn't really play well into his hands, ya know? And if Boyd wanted Bennet dead, he could have done that at any time.
Maybe that's the real tragedy. Because of what Whiskey does, the gang assumes she's a sleeper when she's not, and sacrifice her to her E1 fate when there's still a chance that Boyd could come back (to an empty shell).
korkster | January 09, 08:06 CET
I suspect we'll find out from the rest of her conversation with Boyd and the pacified Clyde-doll.
nasarius | January 09, 08:07 CET
Does anyone think that Paul was in love with Echo? Ever? I know Echo loved him (that was obvious) and that they were friends, but the girl's got a point- Paul didn't believe she was real, just waiting for Caroline to come home to roost.
Topher & Echo assumed that they took away his love for her, but what if they just took away his love in general? No desire, no yearning... just memories cliff-noted together.
I'm hoping that attempt to spell out what he's lost was a misdirection. It seemed as though none of them *really* know what they've done to him, so only Paul himself can answer what he's lost. Yes? Here's hoping.
korkster | January 09, 08:14 CET
edit: I just noticed you live in El Cajon--I moved from there just last year. What a coincidence.
Also, I do think Topher took away the part of his brain that allows for him to feel deeper emotions about people in general beyond general liking--not just whatever he felt for Echo.
[ edited by iwearthecheese on 2010-01-09 08:16 ]
[ edited by iwearthecheese on 2010-01-09 08:18 ]
iwearthecheese | January 09, 08:15 CET
Everything else was great though. Wonderful twists and plot developments, not to mention character stuff. And for such a dark episode, Minear gave us some of the funniest lines of the entire series. Too many to even quote.
bonzob | January 09, 08:16 CET
After Claire shot Bennett I couldn't breathe. After that, and the Boyd reveal, I was in shock and didn't move for a good sixty seconds, just trying to process it. I feel soooo sad for Topher. To see him so happy, followed by the image of him coming back into the room and just standing there. *heart, broken*
Not going to think too much about Boyd. I'm gonna wait to see what is revealed next week.
How can a show keep making a new best episode every week. Is that even possible?
Well done, Mr. Minear. Well done.
guidedby | January 09, 08:21 CET
Except that Topher mentions that what he needed was recent stuff, fresh stuff. That's more specific than a general ability to feel.
b!X | January 09, 08:23 CET
[ edited by guidedby on 2010-01-09 08:27 ]
guidedby | January 09, 08:26 CET
Yes, plus it also seemed like his feeling were Mellie were stronger; almost like his feelings for Echo/Caroline were no longer obstructing his feelings for Mellie.
Arsenal | January 09, 08:26 CET
[ edited by guidedby on 2010-01-09 08:27 ]
guidedby | January 09, 08:26 CET
In which case, I doubt recent feelings can be catalogued to any particular functional portion of the brain. If they're brushing it off as his "recent feelings for Echo", that would be kind of messy writing.
iwearthecheese | January 09, 08:28 CET
korkster | January 09, 08:29 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-09 08:32 ]
b!X | January 09, 08:32 CET
I also got the feeling that Paul doesn't really know who Caroline is. When Echo joked about Paul finally getting to meet Echo, he made some nonsense joke about 4th grade markers or something... like he didn't realize his obsession for her?
That part just feels off, and I'm hoping it gets explained before the series end. Paul hasn't gotten much love this season, which is unfortunate because I always thought his character earned validation. Hope he gets it.
korkster | January 09, 08:34 CET
korkster | January 09, 08:37 CET
The Dark Shape | January 09, 08:40 CET
Joss, you are EVIL.
EricNJB
Amazing - I hadn't even caught that yet. In my defense, I was still piecing back together my brain.
This does provoke a further thought for me, however: if Boyd appeared in a villainous role in Echo's early time in the Attic, at which point she was still at least mostly in her own head, does that mean that she retained some of Caroline's memory of evil!Boyd on a deep level, or was that an old, submerged memory of Clyde's invading from the Attic mainframe? Maybe even though he can't consciously remember, he's been integrated for long enough to outsource his own subconscious to newer, less important nodes in the system, like Echo. What do you think, group mind?
Also, hey - Whedonesque seems to have a narrower quote-box-width now.
Mercenary | January 09, 08:54 CET
1) He used the Echo/Anthony/Priya method of dying in the Attic, as a result of someone else's simulation/presence, and, unlike Priya and Anthony didn't start dying immediately, and unlike Echo could bust out of his saran wrap physically (I get that there are no orderlies present because Echo knocked them out, natch)
2) Clyde, now that he had a partner and knowing about the Echo method (1), came up with a way to get Dom out without requiring him to flatline, so that he can use his physical strength to bust out
3) Boyd got him out, but in such a way that Dom didn't know, because he wanted Adelle to have warning for some reason; Dominic himself as well as Adelle et al. were too distracted by the crazy goings-on to think about the implication of Dom getting out
4) Joss, Tim et al. forgot that getting out of the Attic is basically impossible
Joss, Tim, staff: you know I love you and you make the best shows ever, but can you keep your mythology straight from ep to ep, please?
WilliamTheB | January 09, 08:56 CET
1.)They all have to return to their jobs at the DH LA.
2.) Victor and Sierra have to be composited with all of their engagement memories. They also have a falling out.
3.) Whiskey has to be brought back into the fold and her scars fixed.
4.) Mr. Ambrose has to be on talking terms with Topher and Adele to present them his "final solution."
5.) All of the freed dolls have to be returned, or new Dolls have to be acquired to populated DH LA.
If all of this is still in the future of the series, it really speaks volumes about the success of their current "war" against Rossum, right?
Head. Hurt.
Arsenal | January 09, 08:56 CET
wackybroadwaynightmare | January 09, 09:01 CET
Boyd is Ben is Bennett is Glory.
Now it all makes sense now. ;)
My reaction is: Sigh. I love Topher. His character and character development is my biggest reason for watching this show now. I'm so glad so much involves him.
I'm sorry about Bennett, but I had a feeling something like that was going to happen. And Joss likes to add the blood splattering everywhere, especially the lover (a la Willow). It's sad that I'm getting desensitized to Joss-death.
I'm not so sure about the Boyd reveal. Right now it's too unbelievable for me to believe, and confused me more than anything. I thought that for some reason Boyd was in that office with that other guy doing some sort of security thing, and then I was like, "Hey wait, I think he's supposed to BE somebody..." I have such a hard time with the concept that I'm going to need the next episode to help me understand. And I really don't think Joss 'knew' this from the beginning, so I feel like it's a little cheap. But maybe he'll be able to explain evil-Boyd and all the reasons we all love Boyd, and maybe I'll get it then.
VeryVeryCrowded | January 09, 09:02 CET
We know that the E1 flashbacks are merely memories, so there are quite a few things that might not pan out. I feel as if Adelle's reference to Clive Ambrose being in multiple bodies might be meant as a nod to the E1 scene he appears in, a hint of where a false memory might have come from.
Even if the memories are legit, there was nothing in the Priya/Anthony scenes in E1 that suggested to me that they had composited or had memories of their engagements.
As far as I'm concerned, the only things that are absolutely canon and that we can trust in E1 are the scenes in the present. So that means that the world is going to go to hell, somehow. And Whisky will be in the L.A. Dollhouse, with her scars fixed.
WilliamTheB | January 09, 09:12 CET
Simon | January 09, 09:17 CET
I'm in the Saunders isn't a sleeper, she shot Bennett because she hates Topher camp. Fix the scars, "fix" the part of her brain that hates Topher, leave her in the Dollhouse.
MadeToLoveJoss | January 09, 09:20 CET
The Topher; "Ow!" Bennett: "Sorry." on repeat is never gonna get old. Jesus, those two were AMAZING together.
I could buy Saunders's murder of Bennett being a way to punish Topher and not sleeper progamming kicking in. Except, Saunders going as far as murdering someone is a level of magnitude more crazy than she was at the beginning of the season and would require more retcon than we've gotten so far.
Now we know, when Dominic put a gun to Adelle's head in Epitaph One, what his comment about what she'd done to his body meant. Nice.
Doing justice to all the characters and their arcs in two episodes is gonna be tough. So I understand that getting Ivy out and shooting (sob) Bennett helps on a story level, but it hurts anyway. There go two of my favorite characters.
I will be rewatching this one a lot, just to get all the character goodness and lines I didn't quite catch, plus to see if I can figure if this all fits together.
shambleau | January 09, 09:21 CET
Really terrific episode, poor Bennett. I really liked her, a lot. I'm glad Ivy is safe though, at least I choose to believe she got out safely because it's what I want.
JAYROCK | January 09, 09:21 CET
b!X | January 09, 09:22 CET
I accept that the other memories might be fake. Still, we know that Caroline placed them there, and at least some of them are confirmed.
Let's not even address the several inches of hair that Adelle is going to have to grow back before the world ends. :)
Edit: In the Priya/Victor flashback, Priya mentions dealing with one of her more annoying personalities, and implies that the sensation of sharing her brain is new.
[ edited by Arsenal on 2010-01-09 09:27 ]
Arsenal | January 09, 09:25 CET
b!X | January 09, 09:34 CET
Actually, she says is "I don't want to be in there with them. Too much talk makes the headaches worse", which is in response to Anthony saying she should be in the bed chambers with the others. Then she references Juliet, which is one of the NATO letters and so likely another doll.
b!X | January 09, 09:37 CET
When I saw the reveal at the end of tonight's episode, my jaw quite literally dropped, my lungs involuntarily sucked in and held a breath, and I just sat there in utter shock for a few seconds, and then delightedly (but quietly, as I was watching this around two in the morning) started repeating "holy !@#$%" over and over again.
I think this may be the very first time I have been so utterly, completely, and totally shocked by such an entirely unexpected plot twist.
Joss Whedon, you magnificent bastard. Thank you.
WCityMike | January 09, 09:38 CET
WilliamTheB | January 09, 09:40 CET
I always thought the Dominic body thing was an allusion to SITHOL. No?
korkster | January 09, 09:41 CET
Isn't Juliet the one leading the group prayer circle thingy in E1?
As for the hair, I'm currently in the process of growing out the identical style. At this rate it'll take about 2 years. :)
[ edited by MadeToLoveJoss on 2010-01-09 09:42 ]
MadeToLoveJoss | January 09, 09:41 CET
That was Matthew Harding.
b!X | January 09, 09:43 CET
korkster | January 09, 09:43 CET
MadeToLoveJoss | January 09, 09:47 CET
Granted that the L.A. part of the Attic is part of a larger neurological web, and that the Rossum technicians running it are not necessarily in on her revolution. (Even so, Ambrose has come to figure out that the Los Angeles data center has been somewhat compromised.)
But the Attic in Adelle's Dollhouse is in a physical space that she controls. Echo going in and out with greater difficulty was at an earlier stage of the conspiracy, under deeper cover. Opening sufficient loopholes later to ensure Dominic could get word out if he needed to would have been a plausible move - hey, if that's the biggest loophole we have to admit to let this story hang together, I'll be very pleasantly surprised.
Anthony | January 09, 09:47 CET
Foiled ya.
All these press releases indicating a happy cast reunion right to the end.... Yeah. We're on the roller coaster at this point, but out of the safety of the cart.
[ edited by gossi on 2010-01-09 10:26 ]
gossi | January 09, 09:56 CET
bonzob | January 09, 10:00 CET
I hate Joss, BTW. In a good way. OK, maybe in a not-so-good way, since he keeps killing nice defenseless girls! coughTaracough
I loved the line: "Relax, I'm not a thief. I'm a terrorist.", then... well I have a theory: Joss and his gang are trying to kill everyone in the audience with these three episodes, so no one will notice that DH has been canceled.
Lino | January 09, 10:02 CET
This seems to fit snugly with the ongoing hypothesis that Boyd has been running Echo as an experiment in compositing, a prototype before using the technology himself - his plans hence lined up with those of our gang up to the point of getting Caroline back into Echo. Even if he started as an earlier experiment of Boyd's, Alpha is a wildcard genuinely outside of Boyd's control - otherwise e.g. seems unlikely his agent Connell would have put an arrow through Boyd in "The Target".
Got to despair at that man Brink's data storage policies, though. When both your copies of vital files disappear, and you are then fortunate to get the original back again, surely that's your cue to start making redundant off-site back-ups?
Anthony | January 09, 10:10 CET
Showers | January 09, 10:15 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 09, 10:16 CET
JAYROCK | January 09, 10:24 CET
I was more shocked at Claire than Boyd... Still fuzzy on what the twist is, but I'm leaning towards him not being a complete bad guy. Pwease, Joss?
Funny kissing by Topher & Bennet. :D
Yeah, that's how it looks. It's a pity. I wanted to see the end of Lost before I died. ;)
Braeden Fireheart | January 09, 10:56 CET
I don't think we'll ever see a straight-up 'this is the way it happened' version of the scene.
entwashian | January 09, 11:03 CET
Caroline is a terrorist. Probably best not to reimprint her in the middle of the Dollhouse.
[ edited by gossi on 2010-01-09 11:08 ]
gossi | January 09, 11:08 CET
The Russian girl mission with Paul as her handler becomes a dream in the Attic, Victor being taken by Ambrose must be assumed to have already occurred or is possibly a false memory, and somehow Boyd and Whiskey have that conversation even though it makes no sense... and it occurs to me Boyd and she may not be talking about Rossum (which would entail Whiskey acting separately), but about Adelle and the others. Or about the rest of Rossum. Corporations tend to not be bound by their CEOs.
But what I really think is going on is either killing Bennett bought them time to get Boyd in the room with Caroline alone, or killing Bennett was Saunders not wanting Boyd to get what he was after because then he wouldn't need her anymore.
PuppetDoug | January 09, 11:10 CET
Just rewatched those breathtaking last ten minutes. Lots of great details there. Loved how Topher's blood-splattered hands recalled Belonging, while his posture and Adelle's motherly attitude recalled Epitaph One.
Loved the way the blood spray on the monitor looked as Ivy sat in front of it, creating a warning of what might happen to her that inspired Topher to act.
Loved Paul's line about Boyd being in love with a sleeper active, "he'll have to adjust," which was both funny and creepy, especially with Mellie standing right there.
Love that little look Mr. Dominic gives Caroline as the elevator door closes. Not to mention how badass Adelle is with the long hair and that coat in the flashbacks.
Love Caroline's "I hate tea." This is presumably before Adelle has sat her down for her tea room negotiation though?
And I loved the final "with your life," which takes on an entirely new context and becomes very disturbing here. Like others have said, it totally makes you want to go back and rewatch season one for clues.
And, also like others have said, this great reveal would have been even greater after three-five full seasons of build up.
bonzob | January 09, 11:25 CET
JAYROCK | January 09, 11:59 CET
BTW, did anyone get the impression that the fellow Caroline first saw when she went upstairs, Rossum, was Topher, even though it was different body? Or perhaps Topher is just another imprint, in this case of Rossum. Same mannerisms and vocal patterns. If Topher ends up the big bad (as Rossum or as Rossum doppleganger), I could see why Whiskey would shoot Bennet Halvorson if Topher was falling for her and Whiskey hated Topher/Rossum. Oh boy, this sounds like Ben and Glory. I am not making much sense, I know.
Dana5140 | January 09, 12:46 CET
gossi | January 09, 12:50 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 13:55 CET
I figure you might know more than anyone. Is Joss real? Can we trust him? Really trust him? He kind of scares me now. ;)
josswhedonaddict | January 09, 14:15 CET
maz | January 09, 14:27 CET
And I love it because knowing there was so little time (I'm sure even before the official cancellation) everything tightened up and turned into a roller-coaster ride and became awesome. I'm not crying about the time that's not left, I'm rejoicing for what we finally got.
redeem147 | January 09, 14:31 CET
But that never played out... (so far).
SteveP | January 09, 14:32 CET
I got tears of awesomeness from The Attic, but I definitely got mega creepy chills from this episode, and those are of course the best kind of chills.
JAYROCK | January 09, 14:36 CET
The thing I like about this episode: all the Dolls get imprinted and sent home. Echo and Paul have taken down the 'house. Which, in theory, massive moment for them. They did it. Except it's not a massive moment in the show due to the 15 other things going on.
gossi | January 09, 14:45 CET
Chili | January 09, 14:56 CET
Also loved the "she could kill you with her brain" line and then getting killed bullet in the brainpan squish style.
Ivalaine | January 09, 15:08 CET
Somehow I have missed the "Twilight" references. When does the show mention a mystery character named Twilight?
Re: Boyd/Claire, a few random thoughts. Has Boyd had a plan for Claire from the beginning? - This would explain why her scars were not fixed, when Victor's were. Was her running away then part of the plan? I don't think that Boyd wanted Bennett shot just because she was fixing Caroline's wedge. If killing Bennett or being sure that Caroline could not be resurrected were critical, wouldn't Boyd have stayed to be sure it was done? Therefore, either Boyd wanted Bennett killed for some other reason, and Claire made sure Bennett was "almost done" fixing the wedge (so that Topher could finish fixing the wedge) before shooting her - or - Claire is actually working at cross-purposes to Boyd, leading him on that she is working with him while really being programmed by someone else to be on the other side. We see that she is in a doll-like state in E1, so whatever she is doing or knows now is wiped by then.
eyes of the world | January 09, 15:16 CET
josswhedonaddict | January 09, 15:21 CET
PaperSpock | January 09, 15:32 CET
The messy stuff- mainly to do with Ballard. It might come together later, and yes he's been made into a doll, but Mellie's appearance was awkward, as was his hand on her back, as were his meetings with Echo. I just don't feel like the situation between those 3 characters worked at all. I suppose it gets very difficult to humanise and make real a 'love triangle' between three imprinted personalities...
[ edited by fivebyfivefaith on 2010-01-09 15:50 ]
fivebyfivefaith | January 09, 15:40 CET
That hurt my feelings. I live here. I love Arizona.
madmolly | January 09, 15:42 CET
The most plausible thing I can come up with is actually a fairly benevolent one, if with a rather large amount of moral greyness.
He knows (because he's got Clyde 1.0 crunching the numbers for it in the Attic) that Rossum's tech is going to lead almost inevitably to the end of civilisation, which is pretty certainly a bad thing for everyone. He can't just destroy Rossum and be done with it because either the rest of the board would stop him, or that somebody else would eventually invent (or steal) the same tech anyway. It's like the atomic bomb; the potential was always there in the physics, it was just a question of who would make it practical first.
The only thing to do is to develop a method of resisting imprinting, to neutralise the effect of the tech. It could well be that Boyd is the person ultimately responsible for the creation of Safe Haven. Just not soon enough to rescue civilisation. Hence Caroline / Echo, possibly?
aiusepsi | January 09, 16:35 CET
Such brilliant writing. You never know what you're getting with Joss. OMFG!
Lots and lots of questions and I declare that I will be patient till next week.
Sigh!
ginalee | January 09, 16:42 CET
eyes of the world | January 09, 16:45 CET
AMCsoldier | January 09, 16:48 CET
Firefly ref, and some lines like "Damn, I just had that replaced." made me giggle! SOOOO good!
And all the twists! OMG, OMG!!!
When Claire shoot Bennet I said an out loud "WTF?", which I don't usually do. Usually my reactions are silent. But this called for it.
I don't mind the memories redeeming Caroline... I don't really like her anyway. I did like her
"friendship" with Bennet though, even if it was fake. And the puking thing to get the table was funny. =P
Edited to add:
For the ones saying "Bennet dying was predicable"... oh shush!!
Yes, we all knew someone was dying.
Yes, if you think about it, Bennet was the most obvious victim.
SO WHAT? I was still shocked when Claire shoot her.
And still was a kick-ass scene, so... I don't care AT ALL about the "of course Bennet would die!" thing.
[ edited by maxsummers on 2010-01-09 17:35 ]
maxsummers | January 09, 17:29 CET
ABRAMSology.com | January 09, 17:32 CET
Tim, ever the practical writer. ;-)
Lioness | January 09, 17:38 CET
Point here is that once you know Joss' writing and plotting strategies, it is often easy to predict some elements of a storyline. We all know people will die in the telling, and we had clues from Epitaph 1 of who was still alive at that time; thus, picking Bennett was not a real stretch, not when you know Joss kills off people, usually women, just after they realize they like or love someone. Same for Boyd being a big bad; it had to be an insider, and it could not be Adelle nor Paul, so who was left? I still think Topher might be in play. I was not being snarky or supercilious about figuring this all out; I just really meant that it seemed pretty easy to predict all of it.
Dana5140 | January 09, 17:44 CET
Not at all. Joss has killed off much more significant characters. Bennet only really became important in this episode.
At this point, the series is done and there's no reason not to take an axe to major characters George R. R. Martin style, if it suits the story.
nasarius | January 09, 17:46 CET
On a side note, I have that swivel chair that was in Bennett/Carolines dorm room. Its from ikea :)
emmy | January 09, 17:46 CET
RazorBlade | January 09, 17:52 CET
Someone, somewhere, on the internets conjectured that Boyd was the main Rossumm guy so that one didn't surprise me. Bennett getting shot was upsetting, but it's become so common for Joss to do that kind of thing that the only thing that would be truly surprising anymore is if he let Victor and Sierra have a happy ending.
Xane | January 09, 17:53 CET
CaptainB | January 09, 18:16 CET
That said, it could still be pretty cool, but it rings just slightly false to me.
KingofCretins | January 09, 18:17 CET
Events we are seeing do not have to absolutely correlate with "Epitaph One" because (I think) the "One" in the title always suggested a possible nightmare future, like Scrooge's future visions. As a finale to the series, E1 does a good job of serving as a sort of warning of possible futures, and with the second season of the series, it is (I think) even cooler, because it forces us to look at each episode's events and ask "does this take us towards or away from E1's world." Clyde pretty much drove this point home a few weeks ago. All this to say I don't think it matters too much if Adelle fails to grow her hair out quickly, etc.: E1 is not a fixed/definite future for this world, but a sort of navigation point for our ongoing understanding of the season two stories as they unfold.
thirdflower | January 09, 18:28 CET
trunkstheslayer | January 09, 18:34 CET
Tonya J | January 09, 18:36 CET
jubal lives | January 09, 18:42 CET
thirdflower | January 09, 18:46 CET
Tonya: I am not the only to feel as I do. This is from one of the reviews linked in another thread up from this one, reviewing the show last night:
"The former is terrifically executed, a surprisingly moving portrayal of a guy discovering love and then losing it just as soon as he's found it. It's straight out of Whedon's big bag o' tricks, but it works almost as well as any other time he's pulled it off (see also: Fred, Wash, Jenny). Bennett Halvorson (Summer Glau) wasn't the best developed character ever, and had her death come in season five or something, it would have been even more affecting. But Glau made the most of the character in limited screen time, and the moment when Saunders shot her in the head was both shocking and saddening."
and
"I'm less certain on the Boyd reveal, however. It's not just because I like Boyd either. Revealing that one of the best of the good guys is actually one of the worst of the bad guys can be a terrific reversal, particularly if used sparingly and if done in a way that sheds new light on everything the character has done before. Theoretically, it works for Boyd here, but at the same time, it lacks the punch of previous times Whedon has used this particular trick. Every series he's done (save, perhaps, "Firefly") has had a moment when you've realized that one of the good guys is actually bad or has gone bad, and that moment can be thrilling when done right (see: Angel into Angelus). But here making Boyd evil ended up feeling just a bit too predictable and perfunctory. Heading into the episode's final scene, where the Rossum secrets would be revealed, it was just too obvious that at least one of the bad guys had to be Boyd. Adelle was too easy. Most of the other characters wouldn't have made sense in the show's timeline. And with the series' truncated number of episodes, there just wasn't enough time to develop a potential rogues gallery."
Dana5140 | January 09, 19:22 CET
BlueSkies | January 09, 19:27 CET
I wondered if Boyd might be Clyde's best mate from uni in the episodes 9/10 thread but can't take any credit for knowing or predicting it whatsoever - it was pure speculation, a random possibility rather than a reasoned argument (my thinking was Boyd must be something because otherwise he's a very intriguing, likeable but ultimately empty, pointless character that basically goes nowhere from start to finish. Which didn't seem very Whedonesque and as it turns out, wasn't ;). Whether he's all baddie or stays baddie will be interesting to see, must admit his motivations and backstory are gonna have to be hella good to fit as anything more than a slightly forced move to help wrap the show up with bang, if the writers (and Harry Lennix) can pull that off in two episodes it'll be a thing to see.
Otherwise, good episode. Great dialogue with Adelle and Topher getting heaps of good lines, like the way that Adelle is still making arguably grey choices (e.g. Dominick and the Attic) even now she's fighting the good fight (she's still herself, still the idealism disdaining pragmatist), loved the situational flip between Bennett and Caroline as it's revealed that, at least as far as Caroline's concerned, she did it for Bennett's sake (reminded me of this 80s advert for The Guardian, stuck with me for years) even though I agree with whoever said above that we may never get the definitive version of events, we're seeing it from two subjective viewpoints with all their inbuilt biases etc.
I thought he had said he thought the whole ep had some malleability, but could be wrong.
My understanding is that the "Epitaph One" scenes we see as memories are malleable (if we've learned anything it's that you can't rely on memories in the dollhouse) but the scenes we see in the actual future are fixed. But there're still ways round that and obviously plans can change.
Saje | January 09, 19:34 CET
Lino | January 09, 20:54 CET
gossi | January 09, 20:58 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-09 21:08 ]
b!X | January 09, 21:08 CET
theMidnighter | January 09, 21:13 CET
Within the context of the episode, you could maybe predict that "oh, okay, these guys are happy and someone needs to die, so maybe Bennett will be the one," but I doubt you would know whether it would happen this episode or the next one or the finale, or that Claire would be the one to do it, or that it would happen in that scene in that way... hence, surprising.
Plus, I think killing Claire would have been just as tragic, since they'd just established her happiness with Boyd (of course, that's discounting the Boyd reveal). I mean, I guess it might be harder to kill her since they have her on a wedge but they could easily write around that (someone's destroyed her wedges too!). And Mellie could have also been the death -- can you imagine her getting shot as Paul tries to evacuate her? That would have been brutal and very Joss-y too.
So while in the vague sense you could say "that's a classic Joss move," I don't think you could say, "Bennett is definitely going to be shot by Claire right now." Plus, the whole season seems to have been following Topher's growing morality and subsequent downfall, and, just as with Tara's death, this works as a major part of that.
bonzob | January 09, 21:13 CET
And Joss writes war stories. All of his series take place in hugely dangerous arenas where the characters have usually escaped death multiple times. Sooner or later some of their numbers are bound to be up. If a story set in WWII had no one die that'd be seen as unrealistic. If Joss ever does a series that's like Party of Five or something, no one would die.
shambleau | January 09, 21:15 CET
And it's also basically an artifact of not giving a shit about the show, and watching it from a sense of judgmental detachment, not in-the-moment investment. When there's no chance you're going to bother with being into the show, the entire viewing endeavor becomes about making a flaw list. (Not that there's anything inherently wrong with watching a show that way. It's just not as All That as it sometimes seems to be made out to be in here.)
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-09 21:20 ]
b!X | January 09, 21:20 CET
b!X | January 09, 21:23 CET
Simon | January 09, 21:24 CET
b!X | January 09, 21:25 CET
By the way, all the Clyde 2.0 speculation 3 weeks ago was a misdirect, for those who didn't work it out. Everybody was so spent trying to work out who Clyde is (as it turns out: nobody we know), people weren't thinking about who the partner was.
gossi | January 09, 21:30 CET
WilliamTheB | January 09, 21:58 CET
I wonder if Boyd truly cares for Echo. he's been protecting her all along and for what? to steal her abilities?
I don't really think Saunders is a sleeper. maybe she wanted revenge on topher or has her own agenda
and shouldn't bennet's brain be on file somewhere? topher should be able to bring her back
I love how joss has the talent to surprise and shock even genre-savvy viewers, which I think comprise a good part of his audience/fanbase
okelay | January 09, 21:59 CET
It's always possible (did I read this upthread somewhere?) that Rossum has gotten away from itself, and that Boyd's endgame indeed has been to find a process to protect people from the technology his company has managed to unleash. Maybe in the end, the "heroes" were at the bottom and at the top, and it was the runaway middle that was destroying the world.
b!X | January 09, 22:01 CET
gossi | January 09, 22:02 CET
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-09 22:05 ]
b!X | January 09, 22:04 CET
gossi | January 09, 22:09 CET
I've watched the episode three times now and it holds up beautifully. It's dense with information, coming from reaction shots as much as dialog, tight plotting with barely a moment to catch your breath, and excellent acting. The cutting between the flashbacks and the present, usually triggered by a line of dialog is just Tim at his masterful best. He should only write episodes that take place in two or three timelines at once, I'd be happy.
Loved the back-and-forth between Bennett and Topher especially, as I've said. Take the scene where she asks for a diet-soda and he practically shouts that he has some. Then he offers to show her his lab while attempting a Topher version of a suave double-entendre. Her appalled reaction and his reaction to her reaction are sheer joy to watch.
Damn, I'm going to miss this show.
shambleau | January 09, 22:22 CET
b!X | January 09, 22:25 CET
okelay | January 09, 22:25 CET
okelay | January 09, 22:26 CET
pat32082 | January 09, 22:28 CET
brinderwalt | January 09, 22:29 CET
1) Caroline: So I felt at first that there wasn't much new here, but of course sneaking into a building to videotape poor puppies is a far cry from blowing up a building and describing oneself as a terrorist. I'm wondering if the whole Bennet thing is a deliberate sideshow so that we miss the fundamental truth. Caroline ended up being good to Bennet at the end--giving herself up for her--and she showed concerned for the puppies, er, people as dolls. So we are left thinking warm fuzzy things about Caroline, even though the rest of the show is pointing out that she did use her and was unconcerned with the Rossum employees who could be killed in the process. The ambivalence is there.
2) I do really hope we get something on Ballard. As I said before, I think in season one he was one of the show's most interesting characters--like "Echoes" Caroline, surface heroic but a screw-up, a fool, a sexual obsessive, bounced around and manipulated by Alpha, the mole (Dominic, right?), Adelle. Sympathetic for being an Everyman and traditional hero way, way over his head. The Echo/Ballard love 4evah plotline made no sense, in the context of how creepy Ballard's relationship with her was, but this is still fine as long as we are expected to read it subversively. I'm still struggling to see how that's the case, as I was with the Caroline bit. But as others have pointed out, it could be that it wasn't actually Paul's Echo-love that got deleted, but something else--and then we would maybe have the interesting situation where Echo would have to realize that maybe he never cared about her at all, and was waiting for Caroline to return. Plus, I can't read Tahmoh's acting at all in the past few eps--he seems detached from everything, but how much is that from the doll-ified state, and how much is just him playing Ballard?
3) Anthony and Priya: Dichen and Enver have amazing chemistry and the setup for the Sierra/Victor romance was great, as well as the way their love for each other seeped into their imprints. And Anthony and Priya have been a quasi-item since "Needs," so their story is suitably epic. I still don't know what these two are about right now though--I don't know why they are okay with having been put in the Attic and nearly killed, I don't know why they're so devoted to the big fight. Anthony I can see--he's the Man with the Mission, maybe exploited by Adelle/Echo--but is carefree-Priya doing this out of altruism, love for Victor, gratefulness towards Echo, revenge against the system that imprisoned her? I feel like telling these crazy kids: run and don't look back, the way Topher told Ivy.
4) Topher and Bennet: I like the point made earlier that this is a war story. Someone is going to get killed, and Bennet, it seems to me, is the least of what's going to be coming up. I found it suitably shocking and painful but I also don't think we're supposed to be devastated by it in a Wash, Tara, Jenny, or Wesley type of way. And this starts to break Topher, and we know that he has SO MUCH MORE to come and it's heartwrenching, especially because this is the beginning of his guilt. Because Bennet wasn't killed by Rossum security, or by Boyd. She was killed by Dr. Claire Saunders, Topher's creation, who ran away from the Dollhouse to be reprogrammed in part because of him.
And let's say here: the scenes between Topher and Bennet are handled so well, the little silly music as the two socially inept puppetmasters meet their respective matches and can't look away. The kissing scene is maybe my favourite moment in the series.
5) "I was number one." I wonder on some level if Whisky weren't an attempted composite imprint, the first attempt, which failed. Pure idle spec that will probably go nowhere. Jealousy over Topher being able to feel for another human being as a partial motivator might work, but I feel like we don't understand Claire well enough yet. Was she pretending, when Boyd ran away? Was he? When she stays in the Dollhouse after the Fall, is it atonement? Waiting for Boyd? For Topher? For Alpha? Is Safe Haven a trap, another experiment, with a fake Caroline imprint?
6) Plotting-wise, I have no idea what has been happening in the past two episodes, kind of seriously. The Attic is in Adelle's House, but she has no control over it and has to have Echo break herself out. But then it takes time for Rossum to get the word that people broke out of their Attic, which, uh, they control. Then, Dominic breaks out to warn them that "they got to Clyde," suggesting that Rossum can only find out that people broke out of the Attic by finding out from within the Attic. If Rossum was going to find out about the Attic escape anyway, why not actually go in and take it over by force?
Nearest I can figure is the following:
a) Rossum controls the Attic with its employees, who would immediately warn Rossum if there were any breaches from the House from Adelle, which would render her Echo mission impossible. She also sent in Sierra and Victor as more dmeonstration that she was playing by the rules (since Rossum presumably wanted them sent up there as well), and told Echo that they were going there.
b) Echo was told to subdue the guards when she awoke so that the Attic could be taken over entirely by Adelle's team without them knowing, whereas an assault from the House would have alerted them and ergo Rossum right away.
c) Adelle posted some of her own people up in the Attic who could make sure people didn't die, and who could form the Echo function of reviving people if they "died" as a deliberate means of escape. This allowed Rossum to be unaware of anything being wrong unless they asked their Attic employees to report in.
d) Rossum found Clyde, presumably through his Arcane persona, from within the Attic; they, presumably, took him out of the Attic and tortured him until he told them what had happened. Dominic escapes the Attic through the killing himself way, and the employees Adelle posted revive him and then let him run downstairs but he ain't doing too hot.
e) Rossum sends Clive Ambrose to Adelle to shut her down for taking out her people.
OK, that was a LOT OF WORK to make these episodes make sense. I think more than should have been necessary. And some of it still doesn't make sense.
7) Speaking of Clive Ambrose--was the Clive we saw an imprint the whole time? Like, was he not the original Ambrose body?
WilliamTheB | January 09, 22:37 CET
WilliamTheB | January 09, 22:48 CET
Firefly reference FTW.
I actually fell in love with Topher & Bennett. They had potential, and people can say all they want that it was too brief a 'thing', but from the kissing/ow/sorry/kissing/ow/sorry, and how much I'm emotionally invested in Topher, I fell in love with them both then.
And then when Claire came in with her hands behind her back, and said that Topher was in love with Bennett, I knew she was gonna kill Bennett. It upset me so much that I tried to deny it (hoping she was actually being nice instead), right up until she shot Bennett. (I seek no credit for predicting something 10 seconds before it happened ;p haha.)
Sad, sad, sad times.
They were so adorable.
:(
And now Topher's started to really withdraw from the world, E1-style. :'(
manreaction | January 09, 22:49 CET
Gossi, I was thinking about that last night! How certain characters' costumes are the same in the end of this ep and in spoiler stills for next week. I guess they all had time to sleep during The Attic. Mmm, restful, adrenaline-fueled nightmare sleep...
I love that during the shoot-out in Adelle's office, there were four shots and four hits. That's great, I'm so sick of characters, who are supposedly trained marksmen, suddenly being unable to hit a target because it's TV. Oh, and I'll echo what Saje said about Adelle in this episode. She's still a pragmatist, still making calls not everyone would agree with. Very cool, and great dialogue with Bennett as well.
Topher and Bennett were solid gold, everything about their scenes was lovely. Every change in tone felt real and fleshy, but quick as it turned into something else. And her death was probably my favorite part of the episode.
That's one prediction I will lay claim to, and in the most abstract way possible- Back after watching Epitaph One, I thought about all of the terrible occurances we hadn't seen yet, and I thought Hmm... Topher should have a girlfriend and she should die. Tada! Haha, so not really much of a prediction... And I definitely had no inkling about Boyd or Bennett before this ep. Boyd crossed my mind when thinking about the Clyde 2.0 stuff, but so did every other character who has ever been on camera.
I would also like to note that my friend texted this message to me after shortly it aired:
"I feel so betrayed! I trusted Boyd. With my life."
Haha, yeah...
FruityOatySaladbar | January 09, 22:51 CET
But yeah, that was awesome... I love when Joss messes with my brain... Only two episodes to go... *sigh*
Djungelurban | January 09, 22:58 CET
I do think the show kinda pisses in the eyesockets of the viewers, but right now I'm in to watersports.
gossi | January 09, 23:08 CET
Dana5140 | January 09, 23:15 CET
In other words he wasn't the moral core of the show for me.
shambleau | January 09, 23:20 CET
Wow. That's all I can say to that.
trunkstheslayer | January 09, 23:22 CET
eyeboogers | January 09, 23:28 CET
guardian_owl | January 09, 23:29 CET
Ah, you must not read the /tv/ board over at 4chan then. There is a huge number of Summer Glau fans there, and we've all been saying for months that Bennett is going to die. When the press releases came out that she was in the next 2 episodes, people there were so ecstatic because they thought she was going to live. And when that didn't happen, well I can only say the reactions have been very amusing. There has also been much speculation about Boyd. And now a big war has started between the Amy Acker fans and the Summer Glau fans, which is quite hilarious.
JAYROCK | January 09, 23:30 CET
gossi | January 09, 23:48 CET
Not until you mentioned it, Chili, but you're right. Good call. :)
The Whole Boyd-Saunders Thing
I still believe that Whiskey isn't part of Boyd's big plan. His feelings for her happened away from the house (they founded a relationship in Season 1 but he has kept her presence in S2 top secret). I think Boyd knew what his end-game was, and just wanted some comfort from a person he loves before it all went down. We are talking apocalypse, people. Who wouldn't want time with their honeys beforehand?
That scene with Adelle & Ambrose. I counted the gun shots the second-time around- there are only three. One for each guard, and one for Ambrose through the head. Where's the fourth for Boyd's stomach? I think he's faking. He saw his exit strategy, and took it. That's why he gets Adelle's assurance that Whiskey will stay with them- she's not part of his final plan.
When he says good-bye to her- that's for real. Whiskey believes he's wounded and doesn't want her love going on the run. (Surprisingly, Boyd doesn't look too bad to have a gun shot to the stomach, yes?) That's the last time Boyd & Whiskey see each other.
Whiskey shoots Bennet alone. Only Topher is there to witness (where's Boyd?). Everyone evacuates. Topher programs Echo with Caroline. Topher gets knocked out. Suddenly, Boyd appears. Hey, wasn't he supposed to be on the RUN??
If Whiskey knew his plans, why did he wait until everyone was evacuated before he showed his face? Utterly fishy.
... Of course, the previews for next week seem to make my theory completely false. I'll find out in 6 days. 'Til then, this is my story. ;)
korkster | January 09, 23:58 CET
ETA: No, there are four distinct shots heard.
[ edited by GoldDust12 on 2010-01-10 00:03 ]
FruityOatySaladbar | January 09, 23:59 CET
We actually DON'T seem to be presented with two perspectives, only one: We cut from the scene of Caroline saying she is leaving Bennett behind to protect her to a "lost in thought" shot of Bennett in the present, suggesting that we have just been in Bennett's memories. Which makes further sense when we notice that, in the memory, Caroline explains to Bennett what she is doing while fastening Bennett's badge on, and is still more or less facing Bennett when she says the full line about intending that she (Caroline) will be the only one caught. And, of course, all of the memories we have seen to this point in the ep (i.e. BEFORE Caroline is repaired and imprinted to Echo), with the exception of the opening teaser in Adelle's office, also seem to be Bennett's memories of her past with Caroline.
So I think it is pretty hard to make a case for much ambiguity of perspective on what happened at that moment in the lab when Bennett was left behind. Caroline may have done many bad things, but this moment wasn't one of them. What we do have is a pretty interesting and believable character arc in which Bennett has either forgotten or chosen to ignore memories of Caroline's motives as she became wrapped up in telling herself a more embittered narrative of how she came to both lose her arm function and follow the path of joining the Dollhouse. It is not just in the movies that people in psychic pain can put a lot of effort into trying to deny or avoid parts of their own past story that get in the way of their desire to be able to find clear villians to blame for their pain. (And Bennett didn't have a Giles available to her to, as in "Lie to Me",gently tease her away from the tempting belief in pure black hats and white hats.)
thirdflower | January 10, 00:05 CET
By the way, one thing I love - Caroline is a self proclaimed terrorist, bombing buildings. And yet in the comments here, she's seen as a hero. Where's the line with that?
[ edited by gossi on 2010-01-10 00:07 ]
gossi | January 10, 00:05 CET
korkster | January 10, 00:06 CET
korkster | January 10, 00:09 CET
thirdflower | January 10, 00:09 CET
I mean, she is just beautiful in Serenity- which totally changed my life, by the way (no lie, and thanks for that)- but how am I supposed to enjoy any of it now, knowing that somewhere in the Jossverse she doesn't make it through???
And hey, when did we at Whedonesque become so accepting of death, especially the way things are going with the tech on the show! BRING SUMMER BACK.
JOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
MirandaGhost | January 10, 00:09 CET
korkster | January 10, 00:10 CET
gossi | January 10, 00:12 CET
thirdflower | January 10, 00:14 CET
Dana, and I am not the only one who feels as I do. You've made a lot of statements over the years proclaiming Joss is predictable (by the way, Tim wrote and directed this episode, not Joss, though I'm sure he must have had some input), and in fact damning him and not with praise. I have oft wondered as have other members, why you watch his shows since you single him out as an artist who has caused you great personal pain, and/or bored you, not challenged or entertained you. I'm not being a contrarian when I disagree with you, I'm simply disagreeing with your point of view because I saw something differently.
Tonya J | January 10, 00:15 CET
Speculations:
1) Ambrose-Victor must have occurred before Adelle's drinking binge. She's still voicing her righteousness to Rossum in that scene and that's where she finds out that Ambrose is in many bodies. Plus Topher is the quiet genius he was when he built the *tech*. So perhaps that scene is from or right before Harding started running her house for 5 months?
2) I think that Alpha was a genuine freak accident. But it's an accident that was heard all over the Rossum corporation. And it was before Boyd got *hired* by Adelle. Maybe he planted Caroline in LA for slightly altered reasons, found out what happened, thought a composite would be nifty, and now we have Super Echo. In E1 Echo/Caroline gives Alpha credit for SafeHaven not being affected by the signal. Maybe it's an indirect credit. Because of his freak accident, a sanctuary was possible?
korkster | January 10, 00:18 CET
We already knew what Bennet's impressions of that day were, and it seems more tragic for Bennet to go on living a lie (working for Rossum) and never knowing that her *only* friend had the best intentions at heart. But that's just me.
korkster | January 10, 00:23 CET
Tmas | January 10, 00:30 CET
The Victor/Ambrose scene is the one bit of E1 that just doesn't fit with all we've seen. I think it could have happened shortly before Stop-Loss, in part because Ambrose was forcing them to choose sides. And he was talking about how Topher "practially built" the ark, so they should have had his crazy new tech by then. I think that's the best bet to minimize any discrepancies. If it weren't for Adelle's damn hair! So as long as it's the day Adelle decided to wear a wig to work, it sort of makes sense...
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 00:42 CET
"You'd think I would be able to remember "happiness = death", but he gets me every time." Same here. After all these years I didn't think the part of my heart devoted to Joss' characters could be broken any more but Joss finds a way.
Btw, that room at Rossum that Caroline broke into was very Wolfram&Hart-body-part-harvest-shop-esque.
Shep | January 10, 00:44 CET
thirdflower | January 10, 00:57 CET
okelay | January 10, 00:58 CET
That makes sense, GoldDust12. Post-Harding, pre-drinking binge.
Remember SITHOL? When Echo was the Spyhunter Lady? And she was interrogating Boyd? How sweet his position must be, that smug face. "I don't know why I trust you, but I do." SOB. Even if Boyd was last-minute thinking, they really did an artful job allowing for this set-up. We have *absolutely* no idea who this guy is, and he is more than often lied directly to people's faces... why not the audience's as well?
It's like he took a vacation from evil to see what his corporation *really* does, like mice scurrying under his feet. And he's had a grand 'ol time with it. I forget who pointed out Boyd's evil laughter in the Attic episode, but they were on point- Boyd's been laughing at us the entire time. Should apply for the EVOL. :)
korkster | January 10, 01:05 CET
"Sonofabitch!"
FloralBonnet | January 10, 01:06 CET
-- Adelle is badass
-- Dominic is badass
-- Adelle loves Dominic
-- Topher is not a Kinsey 0
-- Boyd's up to something or other
-- What they really took was Paul's better flavors of angst
What I didn't see coming:
-- Most stuff. Yay! Show not boring. Brain melty.
Sunfire | January 10, 01:07 CET
korkster | January 10, 01:08 CET
I've put up a few, uhm, deleted scenes from this episode here.
gossi | January 10, 01:11 CET
korkster | January 10, 01:23 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 01:23 CET
Tim Minear, you devil, you... you... bastard! In the most respectful sense, of course. You blew my freakin' mind!!! I BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP THEE!
Topher/Bennett: I'm crushed. Thanks for breakin' my wee lil heart.
And Amy Acker? She got to have smoochies with Boyd. omg, I HATE her!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What an episode. It's all been said above, and more eloquently than my own words, no doubt.
Still all mind-blown over here. Can the last two eps top this one? Might be hard to do. My expectations are oh-so-high.
Tim, I love you. You're the raspberry in my truffle.
WhoIsOmega? | January 10, 01:26 CET
It just doesn't seem too fair, does it? Everyone else can be who they really are, except her.
korkster | January 10, 01:37 CET
fuffybaby18 | January 10, 01:39 CET
korkster | January 10, 01:42 CET
eyes of the world | January 10, 01:46 CET
Korkster, Paul and Madeline don't exactly get along. Paul and Mellie do. The easiest option in the present situation is to bring back Mellie.
gossi | January 10, 01:51 CET
korkster | January 10, 01:53 CET
ETA: I think they were hoping to have more time before Rossum tore the house up.
[ edited by GoldDust12 on 2010-01-10 01:56 ]
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 01:55 CET
korkster | January 10, 02:00 CET
ETA: Maybe not "right", but definitely helpful.
[ edited by fuffybaby18 on 2010-01-10 02:01 ]
fuffybaby18 | January 10, 02:00 CET
Hmm, that's a good point, fuffybaby18. I guess sleepers could be handy bodyguards under the right circumstances.
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 02:06 CET
Or is it Mellie herself that has the programmed sleeper capability. I thought they were separate. Perhaps they're together.
korkster | January 10, 02:24 CET
Seemed clear to me that Paul insisted on it. Adelle says flat out that if Paul wants November to come with them, it's going to be as someone who can be trusted, and that apparently is not Madeline.
And it's not just in the deleted that Mellie leaves with Adelle. It's in the episode.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-10 02:35 ]
b!X | January 10, 02:34 CET
b!X | January 10, 02:41 CET
ETA:
- Echo now has Caroline in her, which has happened.
- Caroline/Echo and DeWitt are no longer on good terms.
- Caroline is presumably not in the dollhouse anymore, on her way to create Safe Haven while others hole up in the LA House?
- Rossum has probably fallen by then.
- The tech is out.
- Topher is really starting to lose it (I love that look she gives Dom when he mentions Topner's face.).
- Adelle seems to be drinking a fair amount again.
[ edited by GoldDust12 on 2010-01-10 02:51 ]
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 02:48 CET
thirdflower | January 10, 02:55 CET
MutantBill | January 10, 02:59 CET
Sunfire | January 10, 03:02 CET
I found the Play Clyde is referring to. As Spock would say, "fascinating".
Tonya J | January 10, 03:06 CET
bonzob | January 10, 03:07 CET
gossi | January 10, 00:12 CET
As I've not done it before, could someone gimme a heads-up on how to put that in a quoteboxthing?
Anyways - I refer back to a post of mine a month or two ago in which I said that I wouldn't be surprised if Topher turned out to be the most moral one in the show :D
And whilst 'moral' is a word I shouldn't really have used in such a morally ambiguous series, I agree that by now he seems to be the purest, most trustworthy character.
I'm so emotionally attached to him that it's ridiculous.
manreaction | January 10, 03:09 CET
And whilst 'moral' is a word I shouldn't really have used in such a morally ambiguous series, I agree that by now he seems to be the purest, most trustworthy character.
In a sea of black a single patch of gray might as well be pure white.
brinderwalt | January 10, 03:23 CET
Also when I call things ahead of time I totally like saying it, so that's legitimate too.
WilliamTheB | January 10, 03:25 CET
JOSS WHEDON! You magnifiscient, deranged son of a... Velociraptor!
It stings. It burns!
Go to Hell! Have my babies!
ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRG!
Words fail me. I fail words. It's reciprocal, at least.
I would egg your house and take a crowbar to the windows of your car and buy you new, better ones.
so very confused.
Patrick | January 10, 03:25 CET
Hunted | January 10, 03:38 CET
brinderwalt | October 03, 20:40 CET
Where have you got that from, brinderwalt, if you don't mind me asking?
Topher screws up Every. Week. It's quite impressive.
gossi | October 03, 20:46 CET
I put together all the various bits and pieces about the character that are floating around from official sources and that's part of what I've come up with. I'd be willing to bet money that it's true. Nothing else would seem to make sense.
To add another level to it, Echo is going to need to be very careful about how she behaves when Bennette is around.
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-10-03 21:00 ]
brinderwalt | October 03, 20:55 CET
Not to mention...
BAM! said the lady.
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2009-11-17 22:31 ]
brinderwalt | November 17, 22:32 CET
Hee hee.
brinderwalt | January 10, 04:10 CET
... people weren't thinking about who the partner was.
Err, check out the episode 9/10 thread gossi, a lot of people were thinking about that (but no-one called it ahead of time as far as i'm aware).
About the only person I trust in that 'house is Topher, and I doubt he could manage his way out of a paper bag.
Right ? And isn't that absolutely fucking beautiful ? That the amoral man-child has become the moral compass of the show, the one person whose responses are naturally, intrinsically decent ? Cheers Joss et al, smoochies right back atcha.
I would also like to note that my friend texted this message to me after shortly it aired:
"I feel so betrayed! I trusted Boyd. With my life."
Thing is GoldDust12, I kinda still do. I don't understand his game but i'm far from convinced that it's evil, his past actions just don't make sense in that light - if his endgame is to save the world from his own tech, there're much easier ways to do it. Really hope the writers know that too.
And just to echo the leaping in and out of memories supporters (this week they were mostly/exclusively Caroline's, hence the different Bennett perspective), agreed, Tim Minear has made structure his bitch. Simple as.
Saje | January 10, 04:21 CET
[ edited by Simon on 2010-01-10 18:42 ]
buffywrestling | January 10, 04:35 CET
As for expecting/not-expecting plot twists, I'm not going to say that there's no way to see these things coming. I for one was completely surprised that Saunders killed Bennett. I wasn't necessarily that surprised by Bennett's death (but can't claim to have had any notion that it was about to happen), but I certainly was surprised by Saunders doing the deed.
As for Boyd being the big boss: when Saunders killed Bennett, I was pretty much convinced it'd be Boyd, after suddenly starting to suspect him somewhere early in the episode (although I can't quite remember when or why, apart from suddenly figuring it'd make the most emotional sense). I was very much hoping I'd be wrong though, and found the reveal emotionally very effective. Having said that: suspecting Boyd was pretty much just a hunch and it could have easily gone another way. Plus: dreading that our beloved Boyd would in face be revealed to be Rossum's founding father probably made the actual reveal have even more of an emotional impact. All in all: I totally and utterly loved every bit of it.
Dana, wasn't that the mellowed-out version of Clyde? Plus: he wasn't actually called Rossum. Not sure how much sense it'd make if Topher turned out to be one of the Clyde clones, but one never does know.
This. I was thinking about this on my way over to some friends this evening. That Topher's journey has been quite amazing, even more so because he truly has become the only person in the Dollhouse that I'd trust. If you'd have predicted that in S1, I would probably have laughed.
As for Boyd: I'm not quite sure what to think, apart from the fact that I love the possibilities this creates. He's either a great actor, or his love for Echo, at the very least, was real. Which might in fact be the case: just look at the relationship between The Mayor and Faith in Buffy's third season. I also don't expect TPTB to back down and make Boyd "good" again - because they already did so with Darth_Vader!Adelle, but then again this show has certainly managed to turn my assumptions on their collective heads from time to time, so there's no saying what will happen.
And finally: fun to think that some of the actors probably had fans' pies in their stomachs during a few of those scenes ;)
GVH | January 10, 04:57 CET
It took me way too long to figure out what you meant by that- I forgot about the cakes! I thought having a "fan's pie in one's stomach" must be some clever trope I'm unfamiliar with... ;)
I went back over the script and babelfished that bit of german the scapled active said to Caroline & I found this page:
http://www.heretical.com/science/dingle3.html
Whaaa? What did he say? And was that the opera-singing active? Did we see a credit for him, because I'm like 99% sure that was Olivia Williams' husband making a cameo.
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 05:13 CET
im crying over bennet
and i fell like ive been violated with Boyd.
Cannot wait till next week!
Chris the Bloody | January 10, 05:31 CET
I love love loved this episode. I hate waiting each week for another one. :(
I wish FOX would reconsider.
almost cookies | January 10, 05:36 CET
Scoffing at Gravity | January 10, 05:55 CET
No one's mentioned one of the more effective bittersweet moments in the ep - Mellie's meeting with Bsllard and Echo. She sweetly, and in the most supportive way, puts little daggers in their hearts. I have to say I like her better than Madeline, and I'm not looking forward to her eventual cruel(unless another November shows up soon) fate.
I agree with those who think that Boyd is going to turn out to be more beige than black-hat. I wouldn't mind that, at all. What I would mind is a total switch back to him being good and trying to stop his creation from the evil minions who've taken it over. It doesn't compute. If Clyde was not BSing them, Boyd stole the company, stuck Clyde in the attic, where he's been for years, and programmed a malleable doll version of himself to help run it. The guy that did that is not likely to be someone who would later come to his moral senses. I can see him thinking that Echo offers a way out of the impending apocalypse for him and others and I'm hoping that that's where they're going with him.
shambleau | January 10, 06:49 CET
His hero moment, right there :) I knew from day one when all the critics and haters were saying Topher was an irritating useless character, that he'd have so many layers revealed and depth and growth as the show goes on. One of the best characters on the show.
On to Claire:
I've read a lot of comments on the Interwebs about Claire being a sleeper or was programmed to kill. Would it not be more tragic that one the person Topher loves is killed by his own creation - someone who despite originally being a mere imprint had the ability to make choices in her "life"? Also no sleeper would go out of her way to explain to the victim why she was remarkable let alone look at Topher the way she did. Also, looking back on her confrontation with Topher in 'Vows', she's convinced he doesn't know anything about love. For someone whose wires may be loose, seeing him in love might have triggered something in her to destroy him.
I really hope it's not a matter of her being programmed - the choices she makes proves these dolls have souls, however tainted they might be...
miVi3k | January 10, 07:21 CET
b!X | January 10, 07:42 CET
b!X | January 10, 07:47 CET
gossi | January 10, 07:52 CET
b!X | January 10, 07:54 CET
gossi | January 10, 07:58 CET
If Saunders wasn't triggered, I'd sure like an explanation as to why people seem to be on friendly terms with her post-scar removal in Epitaph One.
The Dark Shape | January 10, 08:03 CET
gossi | January 10, 08:08 CET
When she first shot Bennett, that's what I was thinking, that some malfunction/psychic break caused Dr. Saunders herself to take her out. It is definitely the poetic choice, and the more I think about it, the more I like it. So Topher's creation brought the world to its knees, and his other creation evolved to destroy the woman he loved. It's crippling on both a macro and micro scale.
But it was only in my mind briefly, as I kind of forgot about that as soon Boyd happened, because it just makes perfect sense that he would have tweaked her imprint somehow- and why did he bring her back to the house anyway? It seemed like they had a mission... Now that it's been brought up, you're right miVi3k, I do like the thought that Saunders is broken a little better, it's prettier. Who knows though, if there even is an answer, we'll have to wait.
Another thing re: the Boyd/Saunders E1 scene- aside from the small editing changes, there's an added line after Saunders brings him the pills. He says "It's a through and through. I'll be okay." I thought it was interesting that they would add that, it's just a nod to his injury, right?
And about the Victor/Ambrose (just rewatched E1, can you tell?), if it has already happened in the present day timeline, it'd be the first memory we've seen out of the order they were shown in E1. Hmm... My poor brain, I don't want to think anymore...
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 08:19 CET
b!X | January 10, 08:27 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 08:48 CET
[ edited by azzers on 2010-01-10 09:08 ]
azzers | January 10, 08:52 CET
But, either way, the point is that there is a gap. There's still something that needs to happen between meeting the head of Rossum and becoming an Active. In which case the question becomes why, exactly, she's allowed to leave the head of Rossum, escape from Rossum's clutches altogether, and not be captured and made a Doll until either a couple or many several months later
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-10 08:57 ]
b!X | January 10, 08:55 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 09:01 CET
ETA: Scratch that last Priya bit, that was one year before Belonging, not the pilot. But the point still stands... Ugh, this is why I don't mess with chronology, it's all-consuming!
[ edited by GoldDust12 on 2010-01-10 09:10 ]
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 09:06 CET
The other scalped active sang Verdi’s “Rigoletto” where a father, due to his machinations, gets his daughter killed after he gets her to go undercover for him.
buffywrestling | January 10, 09:34 CET
And I'm now 99.5% sure that the scalped active is Olivia's husband. What a night for significant other cameos.
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 09:46 CET
Which is interesting to me now that my theory to explain the gap between Caroline talking to Boyd and Caroline's intake into the Dollhouse is that he convinces her to do that.
b!X | January 10, 10:04 CET
Canis_Latrans | January 10, 10:12 CET
[ edited by buffywrestling on 2010-01-10 11:05 ]
buffywrestling | January 10, 10:30 CET
buffywrestling | January 10, 11:08 CET
That's some nice detective work there buffywrestling and I think, a very nice little joke (or brilliant clue) from the creators - that line seems to be a direct quote ([ETA: In fact, checking a translation of the paper, the entire quote I give below is actually the opening paragraph[/ETA]) from "Die Grundlage der allgemeinen Relativitatstheorie" published in Annalen Der Physik 49 in 1916 - which for non-German speakers (of which i'm most definitely one) translates to "The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity". Seems like Rossum may have been trying to recreate its author, a German physicist you may have heard of by the name of Albert Einstein ;).
BTW, it translates to:
"[The special theory of relativity is founded upon the following postulate, which is also satisfied by Galilean-Newtonian mechanics:] If a system of coordinates K is chosen such that, with respect to it, physical laws are valid in their simplest form[, then these same laws are also valid with respect to every other system of coordinates K']"
with the actual quote highlighted. The Paul Ballard thing is pure, wonderful coincidence I imagine (as are E1 and E2 I assume, they could be coordinate systems or maybe space-time Events and yep, relativity does indeed tell us that one event may look like it occurs before another event from one frame of reference - or, very loosely, "point of view" - and after it from another. If it is a clue about events in Epitaphs One and Two it's an amazingly subtle one and I salute you for finding it but I also love it as "just" a joke too so either way, good spot, thanks ;).
[ edited by Saje on 2010-01-10 12:12 ]
Saje | January 10, 12:08 CET
I'm with aiuspsi, eyes of the world and b!X, re. Boyd and there being more to be revealed about his motives. (Sorry guys, you have to back and read the comments, I'm too tired to do it myself and quote). :_)
I am totally in love with Topher (in an age-appropriate Adelle sort of way). And unlike so many others, he's been my favorite character from the very beginning.
Enver gets all the acting kudos for his impeccable technique, and well deserved. But Fran Kranz is magic.
Being a latecomer to this fandom and only discovering Firefly in complete, sequential re-tuns on SciFi, I don't think I've completely understood until now, the lingering pain of the fans who suffered through that sense of loss in real time.
Losing Dollhouse so prematurely, with so much wonderful stuff obviously being crammed into a truncated time frame, is painful.
I'm going to miss this show intensely, for a very long time.
Shey | January 10, 12:44 CET
gossi | January 10, 12:50 CET
Simon | January 10, 12:57 CET
Saje | January 10, 13:03 CET
gossi | January 10, 12:50 CET
I consider myself hugged. :)
And reminded of the ME finger puppet at the end of Becoming pt2 - one tear and "I need a hug".
Which still makes me laugh.
Shey | January 10, 13:34 CET
Re: Boyd's motives, our viewing party came to the conclusion that Boyd is probably doing the Noah. He founded Rossum, developed the tech, saw that it turns out to be less than awesome, and decided - since it cannot be stopped - to at least build a resistance cell to cultivate survival. Building Echo up and nurturing her awakening is part of that, as is letting Caroline into the mix. We still don't know why he already knows that Caroline is special when she walks into that room. I am also wondering why he waited for the Alpha-Incident to join up with the house. He already knew Echo was special (so no new information there) and Alpha composited as an accident building on a character trait that was already in Kraft. That doesn't sound like Cultivated Plan That Backfired to me, so I'm waiting to see how they explain this wait of Boyd's before joining the house and becoming Echos handler.
And I agree that there definitely is a gap between this last flashback in "Getting Closer" and the opening Dialog of "Ghost"; Caroline at least had a shower in the meantime, to get rid of those nasty facial wounds.
Re: timeline, can you post the inconsistencies you found, b!X, maybe we can work out a working version here together?
wiesengrund | January 10, 14:00 CET
buffywrestling | January 10, 14:33 CET
:)
zaphod | January 10, 16:49 CET
Maybe all of this began with work on (and all the mysteries surrounding the whereabouts of) Einstein's brain?
palehorse | January 10, 17:10 CET
edcsLover9 | January 10, 17:44 CET
Here's a link to the PDF of Einstein's theory in the original German for those of you who'd like to explore that more without perusing the other site. The quote used in the show is on the top of the second page.
Sunfire | January 10, 18:15 CET
Exactly, Saje. I too assumed that there had to be a lot more going on or the character really would be pointless (and not very Whedonesque :). In addition, Boyd always seemed to be flying under the radar, particularly with many fans that seemed to ignore the questionable portions of his character and motivations. I believe he was intentionally fashioned to be so likeable by the writing staff as a manner of misdirection. This really started to get under my skin by the time I wrote this in the Ep4 thread. Fans were railing against Topher and Adelle while Boyd seemed to get a free pass.
gossi said:
Yeah, funny how that happened, isn't it? :) Love it! Character development is a beautiful thing - and the primary reason I'll follow Joss Whedon wherever he chooses to go. When can I shell out some money for my yearly subscription to Mutant Enemy online content??? I'm waiting ever so impatiently :).
JossIzBoss | January 10, 19:51 CET
Yes, but we're not talking about a gap of days. We're talking about a gap of (in my calculations) 1-3 months, or in the Wikia site's calculations up to a year (which I don't believe).
Again, I only started thinking about it because I wanted to explain the costume discrepancy (and I simply don't believe they'd have her go shower and change and randomly give her a camouflage cap), but both ways of reckoning the chronology result in a significant gap.
So, I'll stand by the notion that we have a significant piece of Caroline's story still let to learn. (And I do so like how it could fit in with my season one wondering if Caroline had, for some reason, let herself be captured by Adelle.)
b!X | January 10, 20:20 CET
Tim Minear | January 10, 21:18 CET
Brett | January 10, 21:28 CET
(and I simply don't believe they'd have her go shower and change and randomly give her a camouflage cap)
They may have wanted to hide her brain, it seems to be valuable to them.
FYI that heretical.com site's content, links, and Googling of same will lead you on an exploration of far right site content.
Yikes, that's not such a nice place as it turns out. Didn't look around so I thought it was just the standard quack who claims to have found a flaw in SR, turns out the flaw might boil down to "Albert Einstein was Jewish". Ugh.
And here's the same paper in English (from the site Sunfire linked).
Saje | January 10, 21:38 CET
gossi | January 10, 21:51 CET
They may have wanted to hide her brain, it seems to be valuable to them.
Bahaha, it all makes sense now! Quick, somebody fix her hair! I'm thinking bed-head, but refined and with volume- so long as it hides her special, special brain!
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 21:52 CET
Saje | January 10, 22:13 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | January 10, 22:22 CET
Also still reeling from discovering that the person I considered to be the moral backbone of the show is in fact THE VILLAIN.
I curse you Joss. I curse you Tim. I curse the wicked paths your minds walk on.
And I anxiously hope my curses are ineffective while I impatiently wait for more of the mind-fuck you've sent me into.
"Ow" "I'm Sorry." "Ow" "I'm Sorry." "Ow" "I'm Sorry." "Ow" "I'm Sorry." "Ow" "I'm Sorry." "Ow" "I'm Sorry."
mariec | January 10, 22:34 CET
just a theory.
okelay | January 10, 23:05 CET
b!X | January 10, 23:07 CET
Jes | January 11, 01:29 CET
Re: Opera: Very much like the possible Rigoleto plot parallel that someone upstream mentioned. Also worth mentioning that the aria itself, "La Donna e Mobile," is probably an intentional in-joke for the series, since it means "women are fickle/changeable."
thirdflower | January 11, 01:32 CET
Jes | January 11, 01:36 CET
Sunfire | January 11, 03:16 CET
witch_kat | January 11, 04:12 CET
ETA that after I typed that, I went back to actually watch that scene and it's so fucking creepy now. So many scenes that were sweet and/or awesome before now play creepy and disturbing.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2010-01-11 04:42 ]
b!X | January 11, 04:40 CET
"I'm very tall."
Sunfire | January 11, 04:52 CET
b!X | January 11, 04:52 CET
The hospital attendant called Adelle because their patient "fit the profile", right? Was it just a profile of a wounded on-the-run girl? Or could it have been something in a brain-scan indicating she was special in some way?
shambleau | January 11, 05:29 CET
b!X | January 11, 05:42 CET
I came to this thread to figure out what in the hell happened. Here. Boyd? Whaaaaa?
Instead -- I have been spoiled, I think, on Buffy comics that aren't even out yet.
It would be great if people deleted a bunch of Buffy character names. Please? I'm on the trade paperback plan, and I am sure others will come along later and have the same problem I had.
=(
Andrea 2s1 | January 11, 05:54 CET
Sunfire | January 11, 06:00 CET
b!X | January 11, 06:53 CET
You may be on to something B!X. While I love twitteresque, it has made avoiding spoilers impossible on this site. Even if you're avoiding the spoiler threads, if it's a current topic, someone is saying it there.
[ edited by azzers on 2010-01-11 07:09 ]
azzers | January 11, 07:01 CET
sab39 | January 11, 07:06 CET
azzers | January 11, 07:10 CET
Re: German: okay, confused now -- is the relativity stuff the stuff that ended up in the actual show or is it the stuff in the script that Tim Minear changed?
No, according to Tim Minear it didn't end up in the show, it was just in an earlier draft of the script. Pity, liked that (I can't actually make out what he does say now - it's not very distinct and I don't speak German - but it's different). Presumably it might still be significant though or why change it ? Unless Tim uses extracts from "The Foundation of the General Theory of Relativity" as place-holder "nonsense German", like "Lorem ipsum ..." is to Latin ?
While I love twitteresque, it has made avoiding spoilers impossible on this site.
I just ignore it personally. Not complaining, it just doesn't add anything for me (except the potential for spoilers - happened once and that was enough).
Saje | January 11, 08:16 CET
Sunfire
I thought Boyd was the one person (other than Topher, obviously) who couldn't have altered the "Man on the Street" assassin imprint - he's the person who talks to Topher in the threshold of the latter's office while we can see some movement reflected in the window behind them. Then the door to the imprint room has been opened by the time Topher (and we) go back inside; Boyd must therefore have had an accomplice alter the imprint if he were responsible for that message, at least.
Mercenary | January 11, 08:28 CET
While I haven't experienced it myself I've also heard of people being very angry at twitteresque since it's basically spoiling current reveals randomly.
Re Boyd is the spy: What would be his motives for sending the messages? Cultivating Paul as a Very Caring Handler To Be while also getting rid of Dominic, the biggest in-house threat to Echo?
wiesengrund | January 11, 13:01 CET
Boyd's motivations are really unclear with the cliffhanger/reveal ending of "Getting Closer" but if he's working against Rossum's other leadership then Paul is a valuable ally. He's always seemed to be subtly coaching Paul along and he chose Caroline as his mole (idealist, resilient, particularly driven, obsessed with bringing down Rossum). Paul's got the same checklist of traits.
Sunfire | January 11, 14:11 CET
And Dominick sending Paul the messages never totally convinced me - couldn't see why he'd do it and couldn't really see him doing it that way either.
Not sure the device required him to be in the room when the imprint happened.
But the door being ajar surely would ? Try as I might, I can't seem to write a macro for that one ;).
Saje | January 11, 17:18 CET
Anyway, my guess.
C. A. Bridges | January 11, 17:23 CET
I'm still processing the Boyd reveal. I had to watch that scene over a second time it was so shocking. Before this episode, one of the things I really wanted resolved before the series end was Boyd's back-story, but as we neared the end I was fearing that we wouldn't get that (much like we never learned Book's back-story). In the course of a couple minutes we learned who he was. I should have known better - it looks like his back-story was purposefully left vague for a very good reason, yet I was still totally blindsided by the reveal. Of course the co-founder of Rossum had to be somebody we knew, and Boyd would be the person we least suspect. I'm still unclear on his motives - is he causing the apocalypse, or is he trying to prevent it? What is his purpose for Caroline/Echo? Why the need for secrecy as to his identity? Hopefully the next episode will answer everything. The end of civilization approacheth, and I say bring it on!
AnotherFireflyfan | January 11, 17:30 CET
It does seem as if Boyd is about to make Caroline a proposition at the end of "Getting Closer" though he says she's already special so maybe they don't need to do much to prepare her (though that said, if Echo only actually survives the wipes because her architecture has been altered then that would totally undermine the whole idea of an indomitable essential self which, by undercutting the show's hero entirely, would be very dark AND more consistent in some ways. Is this great but apparently very conventional "heroic team battling insurmountable odds" ending actually a fake-out ? How cool would that be ?).
What needs explaining (for me) is how he can't change things "from where he is" since where he is seems to be, at least when he meets Caroline, pretty near the top - Adelle and Dominick are both fairly terrified of him for instance - and his plan seems to involve a lot of behind the scenes machinations throughout which again, doesn't scream "powerless figurehead" to me. Given how ruthless nuBoyd may be, wouldn't killing Topher and Bennett be one way to prevent the remote wipe technology falling into the wrong hands (or even, possibly, existing at all) ? And if he designed The Attic then wouldn't he know how to dismantle it - and the Rossum mainframe along with it - without needing a two+ year plan involving Echo ? There just seem simpler plans is all. Can't wait to see how the creators work it.
Saje | January 11, 18:18 CET
Maybe someone can confirm, but I thought it was really cool that the FIRST PERSON Topher suspects of espionage was BOYD, Mercenary. And, the only answer Boyd provides was "I didn't do it", which Topher takes at face value. If Boyd was the spy, talk about ballsy-in-plain-sight (which would fit everything else we know about him).
I re-watched E1 and the entire second season. Looks like the writers left little clues to suspect Boyd (and I only found two) all along. In the first episode of S2 "Vows", when Adelle & Boyd talk about Paul, suspecting him to be leaking information to Senator Perrin... Boyd leaves and Paul says "I'd be more worried about the intentions of Boyd" or some nonsense like that. Then, as someone else already mentioned, in The Attic episode, Boyd gives out his evil laughter.
Side Q:
1) Even with what we know, do we still have any idea on why people are drawn to Echo/Caroline? Alpha is convinced he's in love with her. Paul loves Caroline... perhaps they're being groomed to love her? Someone mentioned the whole Noah's Ark approach as Boyd's plan- maybe when Alpha went all "killer", Boyd starting leaking info to Ballard to groom him for Echo? And now that he has Active architecture... I don't know. Still want to know why they're all obsessed with her.
2) Besides them meeting at Rossum HQ, does anyone else think Boyd knew Caroline from somewhere else? Or was he just drawn to her destruction? I don't care what evil plans he may have, he seems to genuinely care about her for quite some time.
3) What was up with Paul's eyes in the Attic episode when Echo is with him in the elevator?
4) What about Whiskey? I keep feeling like she's attached to this all somehow, besides the fact that her life turned to crap because Alpha loved Echo. There's got to be more to it, right? Why would Boyd pick her as his partner? Do you ever think we'll find out who she is?
korkster | January 11, 18:48 CET
Because if Boyd actually is an OK guy, then why is Clyde still in the attic?
azzers | January 11, 19:20 CET
thirdflower | January 11, 19:32 CET
Sunfire | January 11, 19:46 CET
I'd say his plan is effectively not really concerned with shortcuts like killing Topher because he is probably the only one understanding what Adelle never got to understand: The tech's out there. You can't undo it, and if you kill one guy who could come up with more horrible stuff while toying around with it, another person might step in and invent it anyway. Shutting down the company and deleting everything was probably a possible shortcut while he was running it alone from his garage, but it seems like he realized the implications later and decided: He cannot undo it, only delay it. So the best he can hope for is to cultivate a place that's going to be resistant. Which probably isn't doable without a multiyear-plan involving Caroline/Echo using the exact same resources any shortcut would actually make unusable.
wiesengrund | January 11, 20:04 CET
I always assumed that Boyd was in on that and deliberately distracting Topher while someone else was going in behind him to actually do the adjusting. I never really bought that it was Dominick, either; I thought maybe Boyd and Ivy, or Boyd and Claire, were in it together.
Now that we know who Boyd IS, the identity of his ally becomes almost immaterial: he had a whole house full of dolls that could have done it for him! It *would* be interesting if Claire had been working for him even that far back, though, wouldn't it?
sab39 | January 11, 20:26 CET
Ah, wiesengrund, are you saying you think Echo herself is the plan i.e. that the purpose is to find a way for people to maintain a coherent identity despite being blasted with multiple imprints ? Cos I like that idea quite a bit and while that would need something long-term, the actual details wouldn't necessarily be that important, the whole plan wouldn't necessarily be brought down by e.g. Ballard/Adelle/Topher/etc. zigging when Boyd needed them to zag.
And it'd explain his clear affection for Echo since she's not only a daughter surrogate to him, she's also (as he sees it) the saviour of humanity, a very valuable "prototype" and the culmination of years of work.
Saje | January 11, 20:46 CET
And you're right that doesn't need any micro-planning. He probably chose the LA Dollhouse because he knew the predispositions of the people there (Adelle had a weak spot for Actives and the curiosity to let Echo's development happen; Topher would be open to and awesomed by a Super-Echo...) and being there he could eliminate in-house threats like Dominic. (He probably joined up after the Alpha-incident since he realized that just putting her there doesn't mean she's safe.) I could even see a scenario where the whole DC storyline was a test to see how well the LA branch will fight against Rossum on a small, national scale, before having to face them on the world-ending scale...
wiesengrund | January 11, 21:02 CET
korkster | January 11, 22:39 CET
Saje | January 11, 22:51 CET
FruityOatySaladbar | January 11, 23:07 CET
And to be fair, this idea was collectively formed at our viewing party for "Getting Closer" with the main input coming from my girlfriend. Kudos to her. :)
wiesengrund | January 11, 23:15 CET
And. Well, I've been saying I wanted more Boyd, I guess. I'm not sure how I feel about it. I liked the Caroline and Bennett stuff. I dunno, I felt like too much was happening in this episode, but maybe it was just glitchy hulu (or glitchy my internets) making it seem rushed / unsmooth. Or possibly my glitchy brain just not keeping up. If Boyd is Evil, I'm sad.
I'm not sure I liked this ep, actually. But I'm very eager for next week's.
catherine | January 12, 04:12 CET
Is it possible Boyd became as Echo's handler so he could use her to avert Clive/Clyde's "worst nightmare" of a future?
falina | January 12, 07:05 CET
Things like that happen in the Black Lodge. Just like backwards laughter.
b!X | January 12, 07:11 CET
Saje | January 12, 08:16 CET
Caroline may not be an angel, but no one in the Jossverse is. I don't recall ever seeing where Paul's initial obsession with her came from, and I don't know what Topher did in Paul's imprint.
I'm very interested in seeing how Caroline composites with the house party in Echo's head. They may merge very well. After all, we've just been given pieces of Caroline from sources of varying reliability.
I also like Anthony and Priya getting a few hours to themselves.
falina | January 12, 17:40 CET
Are her champions her demons? Are they actually cheering her to the death of Echo and the re-birth of Caroline?
Does anyone remember what Paul says when his eyes are like that?
*hmmm... cherry pie & coffee*
korkster | January 12, 17:59 CET
jcs | January 12, 19:38 CET
zaphod | January 14, 01:24 CET
gossi | January 14, 01:32 CET
b!X | January 14, 03:20 CET
Wow! Just Wow! So much imagination in this last batch of episodes. I did not see the Bennett or Boyd scenes coming. Knocked my socks clean off. Topher and Adelle have also become two of my all time favorite characters. I think Topher has had a Weasley level arc in a comparatively much shorter timeframe.
My only complaints at all with any episodes Public Eye onwards is that it all seems to feel a little rushed, and it kind of never has the chance to let the characterisation settle. But obviously, that's easily forgiven, what else were they going to do.
I do wish the show had the back half of the season in order for it to breathe a little bit more... but I actually think this season of Dollhouse stands up pretty well with everything else Joss Whedon has done in the best, which was a nearly impossible task in imo.
rabid | January 14, 05:19 CET
Also, I'd like to join the legions of those who like wiesengrund's (girlfriend's) theory. In support of the idea that Boyd has had some hand in the creation of 'Safe Haven' is the pull toward someplace in the mountains Echo has felt whenever she's glitched - that could be the location of the budding Safe Haven, known to Echo as a deeply buried parameter, placed there by Boyd before she entered the 'house.
Mercenary | January 14, 08:11 CET
catherine | January 14, 16:08 CET
Ah, thanks Mercenary. That had been bothering me.
Ghost of the man she used to know? Can't fight a ghost... maybe that's why she let Alpha (with Ballard's personality) go.
Perhaps Caroline herself is a "ghost" to Echo. Not presently in her head, but she's seeing through lived-in eyes. And everyone views her as another. Caroline does haunt Echo everywhere she turns.
Ballard's eyes are white and opaque (closed off, you could say), while Boyd has mansions, with big windows in his. One is shut-off from her because of his love for her ghost Caroline, the other spacious and inviting like shelter from the impending apocalypse.
Anyone else want to take a stab at the eyes/ghost thing? I know it's grasping at straws, but we have a whole 'nother day and I want to talk Dollhouse. If you squint really hard, you can see that I'm onto something. ;)
korkster | January 14, 17:41 CET
In other words: Paul is a ghost, because he's just become an Active.
wiesengrund | January 14, 19:17 CET
I agree but disagree with you. Totally accurate remark about Echo having her imprints... being a ghost of them, so to speak. In "A Love Supreme", Joel Mynor even references such as "I had no idea that Rebecca would live on after I stopped requesting her". Rebecca is a ghost in two ways: 1) The actual Rebecca is dead and 2) the imprint Rebecca has been cast aside and even wiped... yet still goes on. Very astute of you.
"I am all of them, but none of them is me."
I think that is the counter argument. Echo's imprints are ghosts; she is everyone of them, but NONE of them are Caroline. She does not have Caroline in her. No memories, no habits, nothing. Now we could argue that Echo is Caroline stripped away (at least, in the past we could), but once Echo made a decision that she wasn't Caroline, she wasn't. And hasn't been. Echo rejects the impressions others place upon her. Paul keeps thinking she's Caroline, which she gets offended by. Adelle has beef with Caroline, not Echo. Echo even offers to hold down Caroline so that Bennet can beat up Caroline.
When she grabs Paul's hand and affirms "I'm me. I'm real," she's allowing us to see that Echo has divorced herself from the past. Yet she is still haunted by Caroline's previous actions. Those actions led her into the Dollhouse and have made enemies for her.
So, ghostiness two-fold? Caroline is ghost > Echo who is ghost > Imprints (like Rebecca Mynor)
Paul is a ghost, but Echo doesn't know that while she's in the Attic (she finds out after). Could be intuition, I guess. Or...
Playing with your "Echo is a ghost theme", it could be that because Paul doesn't believe in ghosts (he still believes she's Caroline, even after all they've been through), he can't see Echo. Can't see her for who she really is, which could be why she is quick to understand and accept what possibility of love between them could have been, it wouldn't have lasted (and not do to Activating Paul; he couldn't love her for her).
Paul even uses words that Echo herself has said. Echoing Echo, as to say. Those words were "echoed" from Elenore Penn, when she confronts the man who "killed her" (via rape). Which is funny because coming from Paul's mouth we can parallel that to Echo/Caroline "killing Paul" (via brain-wipe & Active). Ooooh, I like that. Not only can he not see the real Echo, but she is responsible for his death. And when I say she, I mean Caroline; but he blames Echo because he thinks she's really Caroline. *chills*
On the flip-side, knowing what we know of Boyd, we could actually say that he saw Echo for Echo. Her potential to be whatever he needed her to be (in the theory that she is the key to saving the world by resisting multiple imprints).
Which is why his eyes aren't clouded. He knew the potential in Caroline even before Echo. The comment of "you have no friends" is hard to place because we do not know the relationship outcome, but his laughter at Echo is significant. Besides the evil "muah ha ha" moment, he is laughing at her. Like a child. As if the joke (that only he knows) is going over her head and she can't yet understand.
If you think about it, neither of her "champions" are talking directly to her. One is speaking as if she's someone else, and the other is laughing at an unshared moment of understanding.
This is great! More! More! What do you think, wiesengrund?
korkster | January 15, 02:17 CET
Exactly, why must evildoer = can't love anyone?
zaphod | January 15, 03:02 CET
Rossum has been tracking Caroline for some time- perhaps just worrying about what she knows and what she might do. But given what Rossum does, I can see that the higher ups might also check her out as a possible candidate for doll-ism -as a solution to the problem that is her activism.
Lioness | January 15, 03:31 CET
Taken from Pointy's blog. This is an excellent read and even does a better job at assessing Actives vs. Originals than my "ghosts" theory. You should totally check it out. :)
ETA: Fixed link.
[ edited by korkster on 2010-01-15 04:02 ]
korkster | January 15, 04:00 CET
eyes of the world | January 15, 04:29 CET
As for the ghost thing: Yeah, I should have clarified that, the imprints are ghosts of the persons they were created out of, but Echo as a composited, aware personality of her own is the ghost for Caroline. Like all aware ghosts, she rejects her former life. (A point that is still massivly unexplored in discussions of the show since it is the actual counter argument to the usual "You cannot wipe away a soul."- essentialism the show sometimes articulates.) But that doesn't make Caroline a ghost in my opinion. Echo is "haunted" by Caroline because people keep matching them, but that's a predication from the outside. Same as the "need" to confront Caroline, which was also induced by others (Alpha, Paul, Boyd). Echo herself has questioned that essentialism time and again, and I think that's why I don't see Caroline as anything else but an outside predication on Echo, not her ghost.
It's interesting to me how Boyd emphasized the death-aspect of the imprint process. Because at first glance, I thought he was talking about the general idea of becoming a doll, the central moment of rebirth. But taking the scene at face value, it appears to me he is commenting on the specific imprinting of a personality onto a blank slate. Which would be very weird, since it would suggest that Boyd considers the blank slate to be a person with an identity and a will to live. But the main point could be something else: Maybe Boyd considers this particular moment to be a stripping of one's agency, just as Adelle describes an Active's life as deeds without consequences. When a doll gets imprinted, actions don't matter because they won't leave an impression on the person doing them. This could have been his original insight into the uglymess of the tech. An attempt to nurture a doll whose actions do matter would fit nicely with such a reading.
Or was he talking about wipes?
wiesengrund | January 15, 15:14 CET
I completely agree that Claire was acting out of hatred. But I don't see that as a contradiction to Whiskey's basic self. As Pointy pointed (ha!) out, her actions/observations come from a root of self-engrossment. It's all about her. She will even interrupt people and make the "I used to be #1" statement, which may have no context to the scenario at all. (See Claire's opening statement to Bennet before the whole "love" talk.)
At the end of "Omega", she's afraid to find out who she was. To face her demons (like Echo is having to do). In "Vows", she even tells Topher so. (I really like that she would be afraid that her genuine care for others is all imprinted.)
What if you could read the "I've run out of excuses" note to be more of I've run out of excuses to care for the Dollhouse & Actives anymore?
The next time we see her in "Getting Closer", she is being a-typical of our usual Dr. Saunders. She had a relationship with Boyd, and heads back in. Treating Topher may have been more of a habit than a choice. She seemed more interested in the shock of people discovering her that tending to his lip.
And the reveal. She wasn't in the Dollhouse for too long before she shot Bennet. She saw an opportunity to "treat herself" at the expense of others (which tracks with Whiskey's base behavior) and she acted out on it.
She may not be her original personality, but she's definitely not Dr. Saunders. Perhaps she's like Echo, pre-choice-composite-awareness.
As for the ghost thing: Yeah, I should have clarified that, the imprints are ghosts of the persons they were created out of, but Echo as a composited, aware personality of her own is the ghost for Caroline. Like all aware ghosts, she rejects her former life.
I still don't quite agree with this, but we're getting closer. ;)
I don't think ghosts reject their former life. If anything, they reject their current situation (non-existence/heaven/hell/what-have-you) which is why their haunting the living. And they usually pick places that are comfortable/familiar with them. Isn't that why priests will cast out spirits and demand that they go back to where they "belong"? Or why psychics will try to resolve a ghost's conflicts so that they may move on to the place they're supposed to be?
With my explanation of ghosts (which may not be yours), I see that Echo is not the ghost of Caroline. 1) She rejects her former life. She doesn't long to find Caroline. 2) She's accepted her current level of being (moved on to hell/heaven/etc). She's Echo, and she's here in the present.
"You cannot wipe away a soul."- essentialism the show sometimes articulates
Maybe the point is: "You cannot wipe away a soul, but you can wipe away a person."
Wouldn't that fit well into re-incarnation? A person, stripped of their experiences and memories and personality are transformed into another being to learn a different set of life lessons, whether that be in a cockroach or an elephant. Same soul, two different bodies with not much in common.
Although I may not agree with you on the "Echo is Caroline's ghost", I do concur with "Caroline is not really a ghost".
You're right. Other people look at Echo and see something/someone else. I understand the confusion an elephant would have if another tried to explain that they are actually a cockroach. The shine/spirit/soul may be the same, but the united person (soul/mind/body) are quite different.
That's not to say that the Inducers (Alpha, Adelle, Bennet, Paul) don't see that spark of Caroline, like in a "you look so much like your father" kind of way. But with the
mindminds of Echo, she is no longer Caroline. So it's a "haunting", but a faux-haunting.Echo herself has questioned that essentialism time and again, and I think that's why I don't see Caroline as anything else but an outside predication on Echo, not her ghost.
I agree on this point. But that "you can't wipe away a soul" is more complex because of the mind and body aspects added make a person. Echo is not Caroline, if for anything because she's been imprinted with many minds, and none are Caroline's.
When (or if) Caroline is ever successfully imprinted into Echo, neither will be either. Caroline won't reclaim Echo (because the minds don't match), but Echo will *evolve* as well with another mind added to the flock.
If they ever do come together, Caroline will cease to be a "living" Caroline, but more rather a ghost of Caroline.
As Boyd said, it's a death process. Entering your body with "Active Architecture" doesn't make you "you". It makes you someone else. And if you're not you, you're dead. And re-born into someone else.
Ah! That's great! It's makes sense to me now! Well, some of it at least. ;)
I like your take on Boyd's perspective, because it would fit very nicely into our theory. I'm not sure it matters though if he's talking about making/imprinting/wiping a doll. Each time they are put into the chair, whatever agency they currently have is killed and replaced with another. Perhaps he sees the souls as the only thing that can transition between one and another. And if the soul is the most important thing (as religions would claim), then perhaps his goal is to save souls, not necessarily people.
Wouldn't that fit with Buddhism? Or at least the Hero's cycle? Many journeys on the way to achieving the understanding of the Self/Soul. Each journey has it's own lessons to learn (could be each imprint), all combining to utter enrichment. Perhaps this last imprint (Caroline) will give her what she needs to reach that "heaven".
I could go on about how denying/destroying the original personality means that neither Whiskey/Alpha will be allowed to enter "heaven" because they never reached self-fulfillment, but this is long enough. ;)
What do you think?
korkster | January 15, 20:01 CET
AnotherFireflyfan | January 16, 02:36 CET
korkster | January 16, 03:34 CET
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