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January 09 2010

Connor and Cordy are named Worst TV Couple. AOL Television names the star-crossed pair one of the worst couples on the small-screen. They're among good company.

Except it wasn't Cordelia. Post-"Spin the Bottle," for the entire rest of the season, NOT Cordelia.
Yeah, really Jasmine, which means he and his daughter...

Ick.
Cordelia or Jasmine, definitely icky. Though when I've re-watched season 4, I think the biggest mistake was using the Connor/Cordy scene in the previouslies over and over again. I had remembered that being such a big part of the season, but actually it's a fairly fleeting moment - or was, until they decided to repeat it every week!
I've only seen Angel and Friends out of them two, and I'd swap them positions. Joey and Rachel doesn't turn me off entire episodes of the show, as Connor and Cordy do Angel.

Icky icky.
I totally agree.
I think Daphne and Niles on Frasier are far less offensive than Cordelia and Connor. They really should be higher on this list.
Connor and Cordy was a huuuuuge ick, but Joey and Rachel made me stop watching friends. Not so much icky as silly and ridiculous and boring.

And I still say that Dave and Maddie would have worked if they hadn't had Maddie immediately run off afterwards and get pregnant by another guy. Ruined the whole pleasure of them getting together.
I still can't watch s4 with any enjoyment because of the Connor-Cordy relationship. Worst narrative arc ever.
Conner and Cordy should be higher on the list. It very hard to watch the season just knowing that is coming up. Very icky indeed.
Oh come on, it wasn't that bad. Besides, when they did it, the world was kinda falling apart, what with the fire raining down from the heavens and all.

Of course, I was rooting for Angel / Cordy at the time as well, but now that I look back on it, it's understandable. Connor was honest, Cordelia found something in him that she needed, the world was about to end... people have had sex for less.

[ edited by kaiuno on 2010-01-09 18:28 ]
Yes, have to agree it belongs here, and I'd say even higher. I've only seen a few reruns of Frazier but Daphne-Niles doesn't bother me.

Altho, Cordy-Angel never lured me that much. Partly because I personally never saw a working *romantic* chemistry (as opposed to other types, which were there in spades) between David and Charisma. Plus, I confess to being an incurable Bangel, sue me.

this sor tof list always coems back to AMddy-David and Sam-Diane, two shows I didn't follow. I think the rpoblem is elss the mismatch as couples than it is killign the theme of sexual tension. Which I'm defining in the narrowest sense of strong sexual attraction between people who strongly dislike each other personally. Once they get together,e vne briefly, that theme is largely lost.
I'd like to see a show try the opposite of sexual tension. Two people who get along great and who *are* attracted to each other sexually but are compeltely uncosnsicous of that fact. Assuming that's possible.
Excellent list. The trouble with Daphne-Niles is that it made the show inferior to what it previously had been. It transformed a farcical dynamic (and high farce is what the whole show is ABOUT) into a rather too ordinary relationship (when it wasn't being sickly sweet). The fact that the show then carried on for another four years just made things excruciating.

Joey and Rachel... damnit I'd pushed that out of my mind completely. Friends writers really had lost the plot by then.

Connor and Cordy didn't grate me nearly as much as the Cordy and Angel thing did. I mean... what did he see in her?!!
What's weird about Connor and Cordelia being in the company of this list- is Connor and Cordelia were *supposed* to be creepy (why else was that unsettling music always playing when they were on screen?) while all these other couples (at least the ones I know about) are couples you were supposed to root for.

And I loved Niles and Daphne.
At this point it's not screen couples that bother me so much as the incredibly old, played-out "will they/won't they" trope which seems to appear in every single series with mixed gender leads (and quite a few without). Give it a rest, lets have some partners that just stay partners.
I agree Saje! I thought Charmed did this pretty well with Leo and Piper. Just because they were together, didn't mean the problems went away.

Cordy and Connor... My reaction to their hooking up was this: Ewwwww. No, wait. I kind of wanna see how this goes. Yep, just as I thought. Ewwwww.

The couple I want to barf on right now are Dawn and Xander.
Grissom and Sara don't belong on that list, and as a member of the CSI fandom I cannot recall any "jump the shark" comments at the time this was revealed, in the last ep of S6- it was obvious from the second episode of the first season that there was a history, and certain key eps built on that for one hell of a long time (i.e., Sara asking Grissom in S1 "Do you want to sleep with me." Her telling him in S4 "I'm attracted to emotionally unavailable men," etc.). This was a good couple, and the GSR was a great relation, certainly better than the potential Grillows or Spork/Grissom.
Yuck -- most unpleasant.
I hated them together and I always will...
Heck -- I was so creeped out and hateful of this relationship, I can seriously say I was happy to see Cordy go evil!
Well, not the whole actual evil part -- more of the she wasn't herself for most of the time they were together.

I mean come on, someone can't be in there right mind and date an 18 year old boy that happens to be the son of someone you love who also is your boss. Though I'm still disturbed that she wasn't evil for a pretty good amount of the time...blech.

Yea, it was gross -- glad when it was over.

P.S: I also can be counted on the whole "Bangel forever" scene!
As soon as they completed the spell at the end of "Spin the Bottle," Amnesiac!Cordelia became Jasmine. So when she slept with Connor the first time during the rain of fire, she wasn't Cordelia. She was Jasmine, pretending.

At no point did Cordelia, Actual!Cordelia, make the decision to sleep with Angel's son.

But what made it not work was Charisma. She was so bad at pulling off what they asked her to do. SMG, even when Buffy in S6 made her uncomfortable, still brought her A game.

[ edited by pat32082 on 2010-01-09 22:55 ]
Granted she was only in the one episode, but I was sad when Sunny died. You think of all that could have been avoided if Connor had just settled down with a nice junkie. And let's be honest about it, Connor would probably have been a lot easier to deal with in general if he'd been more amicably medicated.
Yes, Cordelia and Connor was icky, everyone thought so including the other characters. But far worse imo would have been Cordelia getting together with Angel. I'm grateful for any reason the two of them never hooked up, including her gross relationship with Connor.
I totally was and am a Bangel fan, so I will agree that Conner/Cordy was better then an actual hook up between Angel/Cordy never could buy into that. I also agree to a point of Xander/Dawn in the Season 8 as being hard to accept but as long and the whole supposed crush of Buffy on Xander never comes back I will be happy.
I guess I'm the only one who liked the pairing of Cordelia and Angel. No it wasn't the whole epic romance thing that Buffy and Angel had, but I view that as a good thing. To me, Angel had an open, honest, and adult relationship with Cordy that was impossible for him to have with anyone before that. They were able to meet each other as equals, and I think that was a nice change of pace for the two series.

Though I agree with the Connor/Cordy dislike. Even if it wasn't really her, it was still more than a little squicky to watch.
I really liked the Angel and Cordy love from a basis of friendship thing. Works much better for me than the Angel/Buffy twu luv stuff. To each their own.
They were able to meet each other as equals, and I think that was a nice change of pace for the two series.

Actually I really liked that about Cordy/Angel too - she was an adult and she'd seen him at far from his best and so there was less of the basking and adoration and more of the "Don't be such a dickhead, sort yourself out" (or "You're welcome" as she put it, slightly more politely ;). The tenth Doctor interacting with Donna Noble left me feeling much the same (except that was more like siblings than a romantic attachment).

And let's be honest about it, Connor would probably have been a lot easier to deal with in general if he'd been more amicably medicated.

It's true, Connor was practically the poster child for "self-medication", why couldn't he just deal with his parent issues like a normal person ? ;)
I like Cordelia/Angel. It seemed like a natural growth in Season 3 from the friendship that had been there for two years becoming something more. It was sweet. Cordelia became the person he talked to, confided in, and, it was, yeah, sweet.

But instead of leaving it at something that simple, for some reason they needed to blow it up into that Kyrumption thing. Which was pointless.
I'm a diehard Buffy/Angel fan, but I liked the Angel/Cordelia romance (whereas I hated the Buffy/Spike sexathon).

Connor and Cordy was weird, but maybe because I retroactively watched this season, I didn't have such a problem with it. (I started S4 with the eppy where she killed Lilah and watched the season in full on DVD).
The tenth Doctor interacting with Donna Noble left me feeling much the same (except that was more like siblings than a romantic attachment).


I agree. Which is why I liked the fourth season best, in some ways. The romantic stuff is cool and all, but it was also nice to see someone that could just be friends with The Doctor without falling instantly in love with him.

But instead of leaving it at something that simple, for some reason they needed to blow it up into that Kyrumption thing. Which was pointless.


I guess the Kyrumption thing wasn't enough to really detract from the pairing in my case. But I do wish their relationship didn't have to completely crash and burn before it even got off the ground. Course, it would be Joss if that didn't happen.
I usually skips the entire forth season of Angel, so yes, it feels just wrong.
I skip a lot of season 4 as well. What I do re-watch is mainly early on, because of Wesley. And the very end, for the set-up of Angel & the gang walking into their own ultimate downfall, by accepting Wolfram and Hart.

I also liked Angel/Cordy, it seemed very organic.
Although I can see why the diehard Bangels would hate it (Says the diehard Spuffy who often uses it as an anti-'Bangel 4eva' argument).
Although not here, of course. ;)

The Cordy/Connor yuck factor is pretty indisputable (although as someone pointed out above, meant to come across that way). But for me, the worst part was Charisma Carpenter's terrible acting, once Cordy's changes moved her out of what is apparently her comfort zone.
But don't forget some of the terrible writing Charisma was given as well. Though I've tried to block it out I can't forget the scene where she says "Give me some sugar" and makes out with the beast. I't like they were trying to make her quit!

I loved the way Angel and Cordy's relationship developed so loving and supportive, but I DIDN'T want romance. I thought it was beautiful without it, and the romance element ruined it for me. And I'm a Spuffy.
I always viewed ConnCordelia as a clue from the writers that something was wrong with her (in hindsight, but spidey-sense was going off during the initial airings). So when she stabbed Lilah, it was part of a bigger pattern instead of something out of the blue.

What might have helped was if someone early in the season, maybe Lorne, commented that Cordy seemed like a different person after coming back from her ascension, then have Angel come up with excuses for her behavior. ME writers are normally very sneaky about telling the audience exactly what is going on, but throw in a misdirection so it is only obvious in hindsight.

edit: As far as the terrible "writing" for Cordy, in hindsight it is hilarious. The idea is that Jasmine is forcing Cordelia to do evil goals, but it is still Cordy driving the car. She makes a terrible evil mastermind, by design. (Angel comments that the Beast's master was probably making things up at the spur of the moment, so of course Cordelia acts like she has a big master plan.) This may be a case where the humor was there, but didn't quiite work.

[ edited by OneTeV on 2010-01-10 19:17 ]
At this point it's not screen couples that bother me so much as the incredibly old, played-out "will they/won't they" trope which seems to appear in every single series with mixed gender leads (and quite a few without). Give it a rest, lets have some partners that just stay partners.


I think the whole partner thing was best done on "Life". While the leads had great chemistry together, they weren't pushed together.

Cordelia and Connor made me cringe. I simultaneously loved and hated season 4 (Lilah was one of my favourite characters, and Cordy grew so much it was hard to dislike her at all).

I'm a Bangel fan. Sure, the whole Bangel thing was angst-ridden, but I'm certain that she felt the most connected to him out of anyone she has been with. I did like the slower relationship that Cordy and Angel had together. I think it was better that it never went anywhere due to Cordy's transformations (as much as they left a hole in the show). It made things more realistic.

Buffy and Spike were interesting for a few episodes and that was it. Turned slightly creepy after a while, and I could never see Spike as being "that guy" for her. Not that Angel was either, but Spike was more obsessive, clingy, and we saw him in a negative way first, whereas Angel was shown to us in a different manner. It's easier to forgive Angel because he had a soul and was separate from Angelus, whereas Spike was always Spike.
@13: Your Buffy comments sound a lot like the writer's dialogue for "The Girl in Question". :-)

Angel: Ours is a forever love.
Spike: I had a relationship with her, too.
Angel: Okay, sleeping together is not a relationship.
Spike: It is if you do it enough times.
And yet 13, the first season of Buffy showed Angel in a pretty negative light as well. Look at the very first episode, it's Xander, not Angel, who is the heroic one, going with Buffy down to the Master's lair, while Angel stays above saying "I'm afraid."

I never forgave Angel for Angelus, until he got his own show. That is the Angel I started to love.
Angel: Ours is a forever love.
Spike: I had a relationship with her, too.
Angel: Okay, sleeping together is not a relationship.
Spike: It is if you do it enough times.


You know, the thing that gets me about "The Girl in Question" is the fact that it's such a funny episode, yet it also completely stomps all over Angel and Cordy's relationship. I mean, she had died what, four or five episodes ago? It was like she didn't even exist by that point. Sorry about the rantiness, but that one still irks me.
I think the whole partner thing was best done on "Life". While the leads had great chemistry together, they weren't pushed together.

Yeah agreed 13, Crews/Reese worked really well in 'Life', though they had great chemistry it wasn't a will they/won't they vibe and though you believed they'd die for each other and even loved each other, they never needed to be in love with each other. They had a genuine partnership. Still miss that show.
I cannot believe that so many people missed, and are still missing, the point of Cordy/Connor.

And Cordy/Angel? Totally down with it. The 'almost but not quite' feel of their relationsip makes You're Welcome all the more effective and heartbreaking. And I think one of the things I appreciate about it most is that it's something thats grown from knowing and accepting each other completely, no ultimatums or high drama or secrets. Just genuine love between two mature adults.
I don't know that "You're Welcome" is a great example of why Cordy/Conner needed to happen. If anything, it actually is working on the emotional level that we MIGHT have seen if season 4 had never happened. And what I mean is, putting Cordelia (not Jasmine) into more dramatic moments as the series progressed. That episode, is why season 4 upsets me. I feel like there was at least a season of emotion that could have been explored and instead it was hijacked so I could get one episode of it.

The ick factor of Cordy/Conner actually doesn't bug me. Ick can be good if it's executed properly. But for the most part, it was the audience getting grossed out and not the characters. And then Cordelia is out of commission so we're cut off form any sense of remorse or revulsion on her part. So the things that should have been dramatically "good" about it were left out, leaving us only with the "ick". I agree with the comment on writing or to be more specific, the way the story was broken.

Up thread by the way, mandyjo said that Xander/Dawn was ok as long as it meant Buffy/Xander never happened. I was going to say, it seems that both the Xander/Buffy and Cordy/Angel relationships are cut from the same cloth. They're both based on a long friendship and they're both probably far healthier than the Buffy/Angel relationship which borders codependency. High drama, no. The kind of relationships that actually are long lasting, yes.
Spike was always Spike.
13 | January 10, 19:21 CET


I have to wonder what show you were watching, since Spike's journey had more twists and turns, charges and growth, than any character in the series.
From pure evil to gaining his soul by his own choice and effort (rather than having it thrust on him by a curse), to a genuine hero who willingly sacrifices himself to complete the closing of the hellmouth.
Not exactly lacking in the changes department, as a character.
My "Spike was always Spike" comment was simply my way of saying that soulless Spike and Spike with a soul had the same name and the line between them was therefore blurrier. Angel, on the other hand, was shown to us as being different from Angelus. Two different names and personalities.

And this quote below helps to solidify where Buffy would go if she had to choose between Spike and Angel:


"lmblack21 : I read somewhere that you had said Joss gave specific input for how he wanted Buffy positioned with regard to the threesome panel - that he wanted her leaning more in to Angel. Can you tell us what viewpoint Joss gave you and what he (or you) were hoping to convey with that panel ?

Georges [Jeanty] : I think itís obvious what Joss was trying to convey with that panel ! When he wrote the script he said "Georges, this is probably the most graphic thing Iíve ever written so itíll be pretty detailed..." Not so much with Buffy Angel and Spike, but with all that was going on in the background ! He wanted Buffy more toward Angel because she feels more for him, but in any event it was obvious the two of these guys were in her head ! I was just happy that I got it right the first couple of times. Joss saw the first version made some comments then saw the second and said perfect ! It was fun to do that page, and itís stuff like that that I feel you can get away with in comics. We can have a character come in for just a panel and not have to hassle with agents or wardrobe (as little as there is) and just do it."

From: Georges Jeanty - "Buffy : Season 8" Comic Books

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