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January 24 2010

(SPOILER) Georges Jeanty Slayalive Q/A for Buffy #31. Major spoiler talk about Twilight's identity is discussed.

Cool to hear a bit about what went into the creation of Twilight's mask (now if only we could find out about the whys of the rest of his costume, like the frilly stuff at the waist). Twilight reveal spoiler comment:

At this point...if Twilight does something awful to Dawn (though I've been guessing that it would happen since Season 5 when we found out what her deal was, then again in Season 6's finale when angry-Willow threatened it) and utilizes her still-relevant Key status to open another dimension and suck all or most of the magic in and off of Earth/this dimension, I won't be surprised (does that necessarily include all/most of the demons, though? Aren't many of them--aside from the glaring example of vamps which seem pretty mystical, plus several others we saw on the shows--physical beings, alternatives to the line of human/mammal evolution, but still "just animals", as Forrest put it in Season 4? The "pure demons" were the Old Ones--Illyria's type, plus that first many-headed, mouthy-wormy demon that came out of the Hellmouth in "Prophecy Girl" and "The Zeppo"--and everything after was quoted in the shows once or twice as being "tainted humans"/infected-humans/inter-bred human/demons). Things almost seem to be headed that way and it might be awesome to see (though: poor Dawn, if it means her death/unmaking). Georges' comment about the Twilight symbol got me thinking. It's a stretch, but maybe instead of just a symbol to represent twilight, the star part of it is Dawn/Dawn's energy and the setting sun is the portal closing/falling into the ground.

That flashback scene from Fray is gonna play out, one way or another. All the pieces are seemingly there.

Maybe Season 9 will be such a game-changer because it'll be happening post-portal, with the gang in another dimension. Or some still on Earth (the human characters like Xander, Giles, Andrew, and a few others), some on the other side. It would be funny to see human society suddenly without vamps to obsess over.

[ edited by Kris on 2010-01-25 06:39 ]
Great interview.

There's at least one statement that Jeanty made (in the spoiler text) that I think is going to be a little controversial though. See if you can guess which one. :)
I can guess which one. And that is the kind of opinion that made me stop reading the comic a long time ago. Have fun.
It's just his opinion *shrugs*
I wouldnt worry about it Xane, like it has been said it's just his opinion which he is allowed to have. I would be worried if it was Joss's opinion.
And if you really think about it, it does make sense.
As far as Buffy knows Spike is still dead, meaning that in her mind she can only be with Angel in the future.
For being the male lead previous season, Spike has been strangely absent this season.
I wouldnt worry about it Xane, like it has been said it's just his opinion which he is allowed to have. I would be worried if it was Joss's opinion.

Yeah, but he's the artist. Our eye's into this story. His slant on things do make an in rode on how we perceive events, so to hear yet again his shipper bias when it comes to this comic feels me with unease rather.

But hey, on the upside at least he's upfront about it. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-01-25 12:37 ]
So you'd rather have someone who doesn't care at all? Or would it be fine if he leaned the other way?
It would be all the more shocking when Spike does appear. Just like how Jeanty filled up all the memory-cubes of Buffy without a trace of Spike to be found, Joss was fine with it and i'm sure he has his reasons. And do you really think that after this season Angel will remain Buffy's number 1 love? I highly doubt it, he crossed way way over the line that should not have been crossed.

What would worry me more was if the writer and editor were as biased as idw's are. One(writer) flat out said he's all pro-bangel and described what role Spike would play, which basiclly was annoying sidekick to Angel. And the other(editor) said she loved Spike but hated the spuffy relationship.
So yeah, not exactly filling me up with warm-fuzzies. Do not want.
So you'd rather have someone who doesn't care at all? Or would it be fine if he leaned the other way?

To be honest I'd rather he keep his shipping preferences to himself really as they're not really relevant to whatever story Joss has in store in the comic.

The sad thing is that comments such as this can also end up aliening a section of their audience as he's being seen as a part of the DH team, and in some peoples eyes this means his comments hold extra weight compared to your average fan.

Daft I know. :)

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-01-25 13:15 ]
Vergil said:
And the other (editor) said she loved Spike but hated the spuffy relationship.

Actually, no. The editor in question was tricked by the interviewer's negatively-charged question. When approached directly, without the mediation of a biaised interviewer, the editor had much more balanced approach.

Just saying.
This whole thread discussion is veering dangerously closely to our lovely rules about shipping and playing the ball, not the man. So if people want to talk about what else Georges said then it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for that Moscow Watcher, yes i guess the interviewer is what i have a problem with. And they fact that it was said that there was no getting over seeing red is completely false in light of season7. Joss made it possible.

Edit; I didn't know that Jeanty was still working on issue 34. Must be a great lot of pressure on him to keep pace. Hope he gets a well deserved vacation after season8 but since we know s9 will start 6 to 7 months after s8, i doubt it.

[ edited by Vergil on 2010-01-25 13:34 ]
"IMO, it's no secret that Buffy loves Angel more than Spike so having her lean into him just made more sense. It wasn't a set up per se, but more a visual treat as to what goes on in the mind of Buffy Summers."

Not to veer too close to those dangerous waters, Simon, but the quote above does suggest 'knowledge' (presumably based on being immersed in the story Joss intends to tell) rather than 'opinion'. Which is just fine for me, as long as the return of Spike in the comic'verse doesn't make him a pathetic foil as love's bitch again. I'd rather not have him defined in the context of a 'ship but as his own vamp!
I think it's great, I appreciate Jeanty's views. And it's important to know that his art and the depiction of B/A/S were given to him via direct input from Joss. It's how Joss' sees the characters, their relationships and Buffy's feelings about it all.

Also, it's rather insulting to suggest that Mariah was "tricked" and invalidate her answer. She gave her opinion and she's entitled to it, just like Jeanty is. Otherwise, we can say she "changed" her opinion based on the bias you yourself shared with her Moscow when you tracked her blog down to challenge her opinion.
Ahem. Anymore of this long term rivalry, and people will be shown the door.
Back on topic then....I am very intrigued by Jeanty saying the Twilight reveal means more for the future of vampires and slayers than it does about the person who is Twilight. That combined with some of the things Scott Allie has recently said have really piqued my curiosity.

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-01-25 16:15 ]
@Vergil: According to Scott Allie, the script for #35 isn't even in yet, at least it wasn't, during the Q&A for Issue #31. So, there's no script for Jeanty to work on past #34 at the moment.
Sorry Simon, probably shouldn't have brought that up. (I was just amused, no personal shippy stake. No pun intended re: stake.)

"The future of vampires and slayers" confirms the rumblings for quite a while, and the hints within the comics, that the end of season eight will be an even bigger game changer than the "vampires-go-public" events of the Harmony issue. Of course this could suggest that it ends with "the death of magic," connecting this story to the Fray-verse. But I'm not convinced that's what's going to happen, though certainly whatever does happen is huge.
This is going to take the Scoobies in a whole new direction, I promise you.

I like this.
I think it has to go that direction sooner or later, if not now, then in Season 9. And I do hope things come out good for Buffy and Angel, but I'm not gonna go further given the rules here. I just want to see how IDW's part of the storyline gets tied in.
Buffy ends with the end of the slayer line, the removal of power from all the activated slayers, and the return of Slayer power to one person. Who in this case will not be Buffy, because power transferred properly when she died. To Faith the Vampire Slayer. This is how Joss brings closure to the tale.
Buffy not being a slayer any more wouldn't end the story though (and I kinda doubt she'll be powerless pre-end of magic now with her huge upgrade). We still care about her and seeing her adjust to life without powers and such is something we would need to see. ESPECIALLY if she lost her powers but Faith was still a slayer
I don't think any Slayers are left at the end. If Fray comes true, we seem likely to see them all lose their powers and Giles become a monkey demon. In or near a Starbucks.
Nice Q&A. I am praying that Joss doesn't indeed kill Buffy for the third time. I hope it's something else.
A big screen movie featuring David Boreanaz as Angel reversing the death would make it bearable though.
Nice Q&A this. I liked the reply on Twilight's mask.

Anyway: I can see the 'slayers losing their powers' storyline happening.

Chosen always seemed like a strange way to put forth a message of female empowerment: to 'enhance' them all with external, given powers. Having the slayers lose those powers at the end of S8/S9, but not their figurative strength, would resonate much more strongly with me.

But then again: it all makes a little bit too much sense to me. I'm not quite sure that that's where Joss is going because of that.
Sunfire, yeah, there's a bit of a break (I can't remember what year Fray takes place in), something like a few hundred years, between whoever the last slayer is and Melaka Fray. The flashback we got in Fray is that the slayer left this plane with the magic and demons, so it doesn't necessarily spell her death. Whether it's Buffy or Faith, they could still live beyond the event and have adventures/struggles in whatever dimension they end up in (I hope it's not Pylea, much as I enjoy most nods to continuity/past events & characters/places. Maybe Olaf's troll dimension ? The World Without Shrimp ? Glory's, in order to make a story out of the other two hellgods that ousted her?).

Disclaimer: I will attempt to not make this comment a 'shipper comment (since I couldn't give a fig who Buffy ends up with, long as it's not her sister), but I might comment on 'shipperism a bit. I don't care about the two 'ships in question. This is about the situation as I saw it and, I feel, what was pretty much fact from what we saw in the two Buffyverse shows.

Jeanty said:
"IMO, it's no secret that Buffy loves Angel more than Spike so having her lean into him just made more sense. It wasn't a set up per se, but more a visual treat as to what goes on in the mind of Buffy Summers."

I know it's just Georges' opinion (though it'd be pretty funny, to me, if we later hear that it was direction from Joss on that bit of art). I knew folks would jump on this comment, which is why I didn't mention it in my first post in this thread. It was inevitable someone else would and it was a likelihood that someone would jump down George's throat for it.

Minus the complications shown to us in "I Will Remember You", and the much less, um, messy history between them, isn't it kinda Buffyverse fact that it's at least easier for Buffy to love Angel ? Joss wrote the final Spike/Buffy scene in "Chosen", "No you don't, but thanks for saying so". Spike was just being modest ? What more do you need for an answer ? Unless I've missed something that was cleared up or dangled as a possibility in interviews...There's a point where you just kinda have to accept the author's/writer's/showrunner's intent and there's little wiggle room for viewer interpretation. Yeah, she probably loves 'em both, people are certainly capable of loving more than one person at once. But put the two of them in a room and make her pick. Logically, who's she gonna go with ?

Twilight might change everything about that dynamic. It might make the question of Buffy/Angel interesting again. Not that the situation is boring, it's just unresolvable, as I see it, while the franchise is still pumping out new stories, and not the top thing on my mind while I'm reading the comics (though it wouldn't hurt to see a long-lasting, permanent couple in the Buffyverse, whoever that may involve).

Serious replies only please, discussing what was seen/portrayed clearly on the show. When we get into viewer interpretation territory/wish-fulfillment-land, we usually get into rabid 'shipperism, IMO (though I suppose some could argue that my pondering above is faulty interpretation).

Edit/delete the above if you need to, no worries. I'll just post it at .org, if that's allowed there.

[ edited by Kris on 2010-01-26 00:30 ]
There's a point where you just kinda have to accept the author's/writer's/showrunner's intent

Kris, I see what you're saying. But if you're talking about Joss' intent, have you watched the DVD commentary of Chosen? Joss directed SMG and Marsters to "love each other" - saying to SMG love him when you say "I love you" and to Marsters love her when you say "no, you don't."

So this isn't just viewer interpretation. It's what was directed. So when fans accept that Buffy meant it, that is believing the showrunner's intent.

I personally don't see the question of "Angel or Spike?" being answered. And if it ever is (either humorously or seriously), it'll be "both." Joss' most recent comment on both Angel and Spike are that they're both "incredibly important" to Buffy. I don't think he's suddenly going to say one is more important than the other.

[I feel like I'm dancing a fine line here. Hopefully I didn't cross it and fall into the territory of badness.]

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-01-26 00:50 ]
The fury towards the idea of one or the other being picked is what gets me. If Buffy ends up with Spike, I'm not going to shun Joss Whedon and refuse to watch/read. It's a story -- there may eventually be a final ending when it comes to this debate. I doubt it'll be resolved, but if it is, the choice of one over the other shouldn't be, "Oh my God, Joss just doesn't get it like I do"-worthy.

I will be more inclined to read if Angel ends up with Spike, however. Those two have amazing chemistry. Y'all know it.
Ah, Emmie, thanks for the info. I haven't watched the "Chosen" commentary, no (or any of the Buffyverse commentaries. Only the Firefly ones back when its DVDs came out and eventually I'll get around to Dollhouse's). I'm sure I read interviews with Joss and the actors after Buffy ended (and discussing it years later as well), but I couldn't recall him talking about specific lines of dialogue or what was intended between the two actors.

Okay, so, nevermind a bunch of what I said, I guess. D'oh. This is why I usually avoid this particulr aspect of the show, I haven't kept up on all the info. Is there like, a comprehensive (and accurately-kept-up-to-date) Buffyverse wiki ? Like if I wanted to look up "ancient mythology/history of the Buffyverse", it would bring up every canon line of dialogue and interview snippet from the ME writers involving The Old Ones, Illyria, The First Slayer, and some of the other really old demons/characters, the ones pre-dating the main vamp family and maybe even Anya. Does that sorta thing exist on the internet ? A knowledge receptacle for the Buffyverse doesn't sound like a bad idea (complete with the kinds of interview clarifications from the writers that most fans love and value).
Buffy ends up with Angel and Spike. And oil of some sort.

What? It's practically canon.
Actually, why should Buffy end with either of them, no matter what the storyline is here? It's been years since she was with Angel, and some time has passed since the end of S7, where Spike was gone, so why would she have to select from either? People move on, they change, they do whatever.

I agree that the end of the slayer line fits in with what we know of Fray, and I assume that somehow this is where it is going. But for sure, I know for sure the slayerettes will be no more. Whether we end up with Faith or Buffy or neither as THE slayer, I don't know. It could go either way here, but I do believe that Buffy will not be the slayer when this is done. Faith, perhaps, but not Buffy. And maybe not Faith either, if Fray is the one true way.
I've stayed out of the discussion here and this is the fine shipper line so forgive me for bringing it up.It's just my take on why there is a whole argument btween the shippers.It will be my only comment on the subject and if Simon or a mod wants me to remove it,I certainly will.

I don't think the question of whether Buffy loves Spike or whether he's important to her is in debate but what type of love.Joss comments on the Chosen commentary leaves that up for debate and that's why there is still debate to this day.We know Buffy loves Spike.We know he's just as important to Buffy as Angel.We don't know if Buffy is in love with Spike as in being in love romantically like with Angel.That's where I see the split as being between shippers.

Many B/A shippers know she loves Spike but don't believe she is in love with him.Not like she loves Angel.A different type of love.

Many B/S shippers do believe it or want to believe it since there are also many B/S shippers who don't believe it either.It's all a matter of opinion.Even the various Buffy writers and people connected to the verse don't agree on this.Georges Jeanty was giving his opinion on the matter just as others have based on the direction Joss gave him for the panel and his own opinions from watching the shows.Unless Joss told him something more at some point,it's his opinion.

Joss himself has never been explicit in his interviews.What he said in the commentary,as I said,the type of love is up for debate.In another interview he made a jokey comment that Buffy loves Spike.....and Satsu.We know Buffy is not in love with Satsu seeming to indicate he was joking around in that case.

Until Joss answers the question definitively in the story or clearly in an interview about whether Buffy is in love with Spike romantically,the issue will be up for debate and the shippers will argue.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2010-01-26 01:30 ]
I know it's just Georges' opinion (though it'd be pretty funny, to me, if we later hear that it was direction from Joss on that bit of art). I knew folks would jump on this comment, which is why I didn't mention it in my first post in this thread. It was inevitable someone else would and it was a likelihood that someone would jump down George's throat for it.

Actually, Jeanty did confirm that the direction for that bit of art came from Joss. He (Jeanty) spoke about it in this Q&A (, I wish I knew how to use the html code to post that as a clickable never works for me!

Jeanty says:

I think it's obvious what Joss was trying to convey with that panel! When he wrote the script he said "Georges, this is probably the most graphic thing I've ever written so it'll be pretty detailed..." Not so much with Buffy Angel and Spike, but with all that was going on in the background! He wanted Buffy more toward Angel because she feels more for him, but in any event it was obvious the two of these guys were in her head!

And that pretty much confirms what was said in the Chosen commentary and what others like Buffyfantic said. And that's really all Jeanty is commenting on/restating in this Q&A.

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-01-26 02:01 ]
Buffy ends up with Angel and Spike. And oil of some sort.

What? It's practically canon.

I'm buying that issue AND the alternate covers.
Angel and Cordelia: Another ship and one that has come up in the Darkhorse comics. Joss has been rewarded by an intensity of love from the fans for him, his works and his characters . To me it seems disengenious to say it's just a story. Fans will be and have been hurt by what has happened to their favorite characters. When people are hurt, they naturaly avoid what hurt them. Joss gets great ideas he wants to get to, like dark Willow. His focus is on Willow, but when fans love Tara? It sometimes seems as though he's in too much of a hurry. Some people loved season four of Angel, but for those who loved Cordelia it was season hell. You don't hear from these people anymore. I know a couple who wouldn't watch Dollhouse - because of Cordelia. I teased them, extreme much? However, I think I understand. It's not like they spent a lot of thought on it. It doesn't take thought. It's a kneejerk reaction. Tara/Willow and Angel/Cordy weren't the biggest ships. But for the people who cared, they were important. Now Joss is revisiting the two biggest ships, and no matter what happens there will be hurt feelings and fandoms feeling disenfranchised. I find myself wishing that he wouldn't go there. Winding up fans with a twist or two has to be fun when your writing "just a story," but when fans have invested your work with more than average intensity of caring, it seems a little mean - just because there are so many who still care.
Simon has warned people to drop the shipping twice now. There's plenty of other stuff in the Q&A to talk about.
ETA - welll, that was the worst timing of a post, ever ;). I wrote an entire meta-thing about shipping (not about the actual shipping[1]), which I've now decided to just delete, just to be safe. And I was all wise and articulate, too[2]

[1]although, technically, this could also be counted as a meta-comment on shipping. Or, as it's a comment about a comment on shipping, as a meta-meta-comment on shipping. Does that exist?

[2]Or, possibly, I wasn't, but there's no way to check now, so there ;)

[ edited by GVH on 2010-01-26 03:24 ]
Sorry, I must have been unclear. I wasn't shipping at all. I don't want Buffy to end up with either vampire. I was trying to make the point that the feeling of fans run deep and that it can't hurt to take them (each other) seriously. Who decides whether a story is rewarding and ends with a sense of satisfaction? What is the contract between author and audience? Who ends up with whom is only a small part of the equation and personally I could do without it. I think that respecting characters is respecting the fans who identify with them. Delete if you must.
I understood you, cmbackshane. My comment wasn't directed at you in particular. The direction the thread in general has taken is the problem and even good comments contribute to that. We keep coming back to the shipping aspects of the Q&A when that leads to nowhere good here and people have been asked to discuss other things.
Understood. Thanks.
"discuss other things"

Sunfire and other mods, understood. But we already covered Twilight's mask design, Georges' opinion on the Buffy/ thing, and a little bit about what Georges' comments about Season 9/where the current story is headed and what that might mean for where Season 8 will end up. Everything else Georges commented on was discussed extensively by readers in the issue-specific thread (the excellent Buffy/Xander scene, the parts where Georges absolutely nailed the art, all the Twilight stuff). So once everything but the forbidden topic has been talked about a bit to the point where the thread has slowed down after a day or two, is it better to just let the thread die than discuss something that's ripe for discussion ?

Sorry, I haven't been involved with/don't click on shipping threads very often, or I zone out if the conversations head that way for an extended number of posts, so I wasn't aware they got so bad, despite being here for years now. But I do click on every Slayalive Q&A thread/link because I'm interested in the behind-the-scenes of the comics and getting clarification from the editor and artist. New folks get registered with Whedonesque all the time too, so they're probably eager to discuss all aspects of the shows. Sucks that discussions in the past have gotten so inflamed and maybe reflected badly on the site to an extent that you've had to ban the discussion of said topic and deprive new and relatively well-behaved folks from touching them. Sorry, now I've gotten all talking about board rules on the board, but I'm not disagreeing with them, just lamenting the less pretty side of internet communications.
The Slayalive Q&A threads sometimes get a lot of comments here, sometimes don't. They're good Q&As, people just respond more when hot-button stuff like shipping comes up. I don't think there's a lack of other stuff to talk about, or that the other stuff has already been talked to death. It's a shame that shipping is still such a source of contention but recent Twilight threads are bearing that out.

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