February 09 2010
(SPOILER)
Buffy meta on Buffy #20 "After These Messages..." .
An interesting analysis and new reading of "After These Messages" ... related to recent developments in the comic. Spoilers abound.
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mbeauparland | February 09, 09:00 CET
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | February 09, 09:23 CET
However, Season 8 Is An Epic Fairytale is interesting and thorough. A great read.
Guestage Drew | February 09, 09:29 CET
GVH | February 09, 09:38 CET
Invisible Green | February 09, 09:40 CET
didifallasleep | February 09, 09:58 CET
I'm all for it in theory, though if I'm interpreting the author's interpretations correctly, methinks there's a bit much reading into things going on here.
As there seems to be a consensus on already. |-)~
bobw1o | February 09, 10:06 CET
(Okay, since the meta itself is about Twilight's identity, I'm assuming that I don't need to use invisi-text...? Because this is a spoiler thread discussing that Angel is Twilight and what evidence there is in #20.)
I think it's pretty much a no-brainer to say that Angel's appearance in Buffy's dream world during this season is referential of Twilight. Angel's stated motivation (both in the dream and as Twilight in reality) to Buffy is that the end of the world is coming--that's the future. Angel says to Buffy in this issue: "You can't change a person's past. And just by telling them, you'll change their future into who knows what."
The key thing to note in the above quote is that Angel doesn't trust others because if you tell them it'll "change [the] future into who knows what." That is the definition of what Twilight is doing--Angel's hiding his identity as Twilight, not telling Buffy what the real deal is, and manipulating her like a pawn on a chessboard. Why? Because he doesn't trust her to react in the way he deems necessary. That's the key note to take from "After These Messages" imo. The characterization that Angel doesn't trust others with big information because he can't control their reactions. Note how Buffy does tell Willow about her future even though Angel advised against it. And the opening panel with the lines "can't say I didn't warn you" resonate both for Dark Willow and for Twilight. Twilight has been warning Buffy this entire time, but the problem is he hasn't actually given her useful information to act on it. Which is so Season 1 Angel where he shows up and goes 'be ready for the blah dire blah blah' and Buffy goes 'huh what?' and Angel's gone. He gives her hints of what's coming, but it's always something she needed to take back to Giles to decrypt.
To me, this meta is more about giving everyone the opportunity to read Angel's scene in light of his reveal as Twilight. The panel where Buffy is completely in Angel's dark shadow as he stands overhead speaks well of his role as Twilight. His shadow is looming over her in an ominous fashion. And I agree with the flying as being foreshadowing--Buffy's been flying a lot this season, her first panel is of her jumping out of a helicopter. She spends a lot of time suspended in the air. Recall her fear of jumping out of the building in WatG to save Willow? There's been a lot of Buffy facing her fears about flying (and falling) and being airborne in general. And this is specific to Season 8, a season where she does gain the ability to fly. So while flying with the dragon was already part of the cartoon, it fits Season 8 in that lock and key manner. Where as a writer you go "oh wow, love how that already perfectly fits the story" and you don't have to tweak it to make it fit better.
That's my take anyways.
And thanks, Guestage Drew! Glad you liked the Season 8 is an Epic Fairytale meta.
[ edited by Emmie on 2010-02-09 19:40 ]
Emmie | February 09, 10:39 CET
ALSO: this is the first issue we've seen Angel-as-Angel with a speaking role. He's been alluded to. He's had a role with Spike in Buffy's dream in #3, and since this issue he's appeared, again with Spike, in "Always Darkest." This is his ONLY appearance appearance without Spike, and his only speaking appearance in the mainstream comics. That alone makes it significant. (Yes, it's Joyce's too, and Snyder's too--but they aren't important to the main arc.)
I don't think that the meta is explained in much detail, but to an extent I think that's because it was written for the lj crowd, and not for general Whedonesque discussion--I don't think this is meant exactly to preach to the unconverted, and I don't fault the author for that. Probably if she (I'm assuming "she" since it's "ladyofthedog") knew she would be linked here she would have been clearer. Anyway.
The essential claims of this meta are:
- The mention of Harmony helps to introduce her role in the next issue.
I don't think any deep point is made here. It's neat that the first mention of Harmony in season eight is the issue before her major appearance. It may not have been the reason for the line but it can't have escaped Whedon/Loeb's notice.
- The reference to "unique" vampires who work for deities could refer to Angel.
Angel is unique as a vampire. Angel works for the Powers That Be. If the PtB turn out to be important for Twilight later on then I'll give this one more credit.
- "Shift the balance of good and evil beyond all reckoning" could be a reference to the "Chosen" spell.
As that was part of the whole season seven deal (the First went on about the balance), yes it could.
- "You can always come home again" is a significant line, which may be foreshadowing.
I agree that this line is significant. This was not in the animated presentation. It's what Buffy alludes to at the end of the issue. The concept of home is repeated throughout the season--in particular the first arc is called "The Long Way Home." This issue has Buffy returning home in a literal way (remember "I miss my mom?"). Is Joyce telling Buffy the truth, or is this meant ironically, because clearly Buffy can't? We don't know. There are still 8 issues left.
- This issue links Angel with Twilight visually.
Angel's shadow looms over Buffy. This definitely connects both with Angel's role in the series (especially s1) and with Twilight. For an obvious example, Buffy is in Twilight's shadow in the Jo Chen cover to #11. Twilight is frequently above Buffy, as he is in his very first appearance (in "The Long Way Home"), and Angel is positioned above her here.
- Angel tells Buffy that he would not tell someone something that could change their future--because then you wouldn't be able to predict what is going on.
OK. Yes, this obviously has to do with Willow. It's why Buffy asks. But Twilight has been hiding information from Buffy all year--he had a chance to "talk" to her in "A Beautiful Sunset" and only gave very little information. If Twilight knows something that could impact Buffy's future, will he tell her? We find out here Angel's answer, or, more accurately, what Buffy believes Angel's answer would be.
- There are parallels in Buffy's "saddest sad" speech.
This one I'm not sure about.
- Buffy being "too late" could be significant.
Yeah. ALSO, I think this looks a lot like the room where Buffy is betrayed in "Anywhere But Here."
- More flying foreshadowing.
Yes.
So anyway. I think that this meta is incomplete because identifying foreshadowing is difficult before the fact--because we don't know how the story will end. But there are visual connections between Twilight and Angel. There's more Buffy flying imagery. There's another reference to home and whether Buffy can return there. There's Angel telling Buffy that he wouldn't tell someone information that could change their future. This all points to "not pure filler." So I agree with the meta's basic points.
WilliamTheB | February 09, 10:48 CET
WilliamTheB | February 09, 10:49 CET
Small corner of our internet world. :)
[ edited by Emmie on 2010-02-09 19:58 ]
Emmie | February 09, 10:57 CET
Rachelkachel | February 09, 11:27 CET
Though the author of this seems, like everyone else points out, needs a better persuasive argument and evidence. Getting whipped around by a dragon still doesn't forebode flying powers to me.
CaptainB | February 09, 12:08 CET
Rachelkachel | February 09, 12:24 CET
So, like Ironic, Moot, and Ignorant, we define as we will. My favorite though, is Decimate, which literally means, "to reduce by one tenth." I find that as long as there is a general consensus, specific definition tends not to be extremely important. Yet, I care immensely...
bobw1o | February 09, 12:35 CET
CaptainB | February 09, 13:42 CET
The author refers to her own writing as Meta. Her text is critically commenting on Buffy #20.
bobw1o | February 09, 15:14 CET
I have to add myself to those that aren't sure what a meta is. Maybe I'm having trouble interpreting the interpretation because I don't know how to interpret a meta. I know what the prefix "meta-" means, but I'm having a hard time figuring out the meaning as a noun. I hear/read "meta" as a noun and my brain tacks "meta-" onto it, which makes it just go into an endless cycle of trying to define "metameta". Then my head explodes. Then Topher gives me a new personality and I'm fine again.
So maybe that's adding to my confusion. I like reading the theories, though. Keep 'em coming.
multiplecats | February 09, 15:44 CET
WilliamTheB | February 09, 15:49 CET
Joss has earned a reputation for doing meta well but I don't really see it here. I think there's a lot of upcoming stuff that will resonate and call back to past stuff that Buffy was mulling over in that issue. Seven years of history is rich stuff that way.
Sunfire | February 09, 16:25 CET
menomegirl | February 09, 17:03 CET
Hey, maybe that's my superpower.
You think?
menomegirl | February 09, 21:57 CET
wenxina | February 10, 06:32 CET
Dana5140 | February 10, 10:45 CET
Sunfire | February 10, 11:25 CET
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | February 10, 11:31 CET
menomegirl | February 10, 12:30 CET
[ edited by wenxina on 2010-02-10 21:38 ]
[ edited by wenxina on 2010-02-10 21:40 ]
wenxina | February 10, 12:38 CET