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March 03 2010

(SPOILER) For the discussion of Buffy #33. It's the second part of Brad Meltzer's Twilight arc (and yes it's that issue, the one everyone has been waiting for).

Don't have it yet, will be getting it ASAP when I leave my High School. I'll probably buy it around 4:15 and try to resist the temptation to read it in the car. I'll get home around 4:30 hopefully and then read it and spaz about everything, I'm SO excited!
I'm looking forward to this issue but let's face it, things are going pretty slowly. I mean this is issue #33 and we've still got how many left before we actually find out who Twi... OH ALL THAT IS GOOD!!?! IS IT THIS WEEK? I AM GOING TO THE COMIC BOOK SHOP RIGHT NOW AND BUYING EVERYTHING IN THE HOPE THAT THEY CAN NOW RESTOCK THE SHELVES FASTER WHEN THE NEW RELEASES DROP.
here comes the chaos, I'm gonna love this...
Finally, things get really interesting.
Yes with Angel now thrown into the mix, I've no idea how this season will progress.
Oh my, I cannot wait for this.

5 hours and counting until I can bolt for the comic store.
It's going to take every ounce of self-control I have to not click on this post before I can get hold of the issue! And I don't even know when that'll be - one of the things I do hate about the UK is the severe lack of local comic stores!

[ edited by Shep on 2010-03-03 18:18 ]
Have my copy. Great issue overall, and love Buffy finally making a crack at the Twilight series (took long enough but totally worth it!).
Honestly, the second half where her and you-know-who are talking confused the hell out of me. Loved the "I think they're fighting/talking/%&#$ing" from Willow. Should be interesting to see this fleshed out next issue but I'm happy it's finally out there and, allegedly, Twilight isn't as big of a jerk as we thought (though how he's going to explain Warren/Amy is beyond me). Makes sense that he'd get in the way of it but why not tell Buffy from the start?
I'm really reserving judgment on their discussion until next issue has a chance to flesh it out. Some great stuff in here though.
Damn, I'm dying for not knowing. I'm french and won't have my comic today.
I want to know. And I don't know if I want to know.
It has been a while since I was so exciting about an issue. Since After The Fall.

So I'm counting on you. Tell me.
I want to know.
Can't wait to drive across town on my lunch hour to get this issue. I don't think I've been this excited since Time of Your Life.
A "Corporate Social Responsibility and Sustainability" midterm is the only thing standing between me and this issue...
And to think I had my money on Twilight being future Xander or Rack. So who all thought it was Angel from the start?
I expected it to be Future Xander or Giles too, never in a million years expected it to be Angel. And I just don't know what to think of all this. I just hope Joss isn't out to destroy what came before....
Hours? HOURS? You guys are complaining about hours? I'll get my copy on Friday at the earliest! Spoiled American brats, come live in Berlin for a while ... you don't know what it is like to have to dodge and weave your way through the Internet for two days to avoid spoilers.

(Which is why I've given up. Can't wait!)
Simon, I was hoping it was Angel from the start just because I love him and I love his relationship with Buffy. And I think there is an "out" to get him off the hook somehow for his part in all the death and destruction.

Loved the kiss at the end. What a great issue!
thought the issue was great, but I've got some trepidation about this new mythology about to be revealed. I've got faith in the writing, but using mythology for plot isn't as fun as a more character driven one, in my opinion.
Simon, I had thought about A, and then discarded it as too unlikely. My money was on one of the people from Fray's world. Which is probably why I am reading comics and not writing them.
Oh man,based off the spoilers I just read,this sounds like a wild issue and will piss some off.Can't wait to get my copy later today.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2010-03-03 19:27 ]
It's great! Way better than I thought. I've always loved Buffy and Angel's relationship. But I'm very scared about the rest of the season, happy relationships never last on Joss shows and now we've got three. Something bad is gonna happen to at least one of them.

PS, those of you waiting to buy might want to hurry. I got the last one at my comic shop (the Jo Chen cover, the alternate was already gone) and there is usually plenty of both to go around.

[ edited by kantgitrite101 on 2010-03-03 19:51 ]
And to think I had my money on Twilight being future Xander or Rack. So who all thought it was Angel from the start?


My money was always on Future Xander. Because Twilight had to be a guy, and also someone important to Buffy, and also because dressing up in that goofy comic book outfit and giving himself a goofy super-villain codename and saying that hammy dialogue all felt like something Xander would do, not Angel. And it still does.
So that was incredibly entertaining. Even though I'm a Spuffyite, I enjoyed the hell out of that issue (I really like how they're having a sense of humour about themselves with the writing).

Now...EXPLANATION PLEASE. What does Giles know? What the F@#% is going on???
Ahhh, I need to get this issue soon! I still have 2 hours until I get out of this hellmouth (a.k.a my High School) and go to the shop. I'm trying to not read the comments too much but it's really hard to resist. I saw some references to a 'kiss'. My inner Not B/A fan is worried, so if that's what's going on count me in the 'upset' category since I saw someone above say this issue would upset some. It doesn't have to do with any other ships, the two of them together just alwasy grated on me A LOT, although I like them as separate characters( on separate shows). I'm so excited (and terrified) to read this issue. Sorry for the ramble, I'm new here and I keep doing that since I've never gotten to post here before... I hope nothing I said is against our shipping rules.
I'm really proud of the fact I was able to successfully avoid the spoilers before reading this issue, and I'm glad I did because I had no clue it would be Angel. One of the biggest reasons I didn't expect Angel was because I assumed it had to be a character who had appeared in Season 8 at some point and, minus a dream sequence, Angel had not.

I reserve judgment on the glowiness and the whole connection deally until the details are fleshed out in the next couple issues.

Also, props to Meltzer for the Rising Stars reference. That book has been ripped off so many times (most notably on Heroes and the 4400), so I was glad to see it given some credit here.
I had an inkling that it was Angel after "A Beautiful Sunset". To me he was the only one that would have such a huge impact on Buffy. As for the issue, it was very good but like many, I am left confused about where this is heading. Angel seems to have a explaination for everything, but I can't imagine what would justify everything that has happened up to this point.
Is Angel actually Angel?

I hope nothing I said is against our shipping rules.


You're alright.
Angel is actually Angel, but superpowered, like Buffy.

Willow was wrong. Buffy's new powers and Angel's powers come from the same source -- and it's not dead slayers. We have to tune in next time to find out.

Apparently, Giles has known about this secret source all this time. And hasn't shared.

The new mythology being hinted at here feels like a major retcon in the works. And I say retcon with no intended negative connotation. We're about to find out, in Angel's words, the reason he's loved Buffy from the moment he first saw her. It's the same reason for both of them glowing and kissing and -- to quote Willow -- "f#@%ing" at the end of this issue.

[ edited by 1starbuckstown on 2010-03-03 21:01 ]
I just noticed that Angel called Buffy, 'Buff' when they're fighting in the forest. last time that happened was when Angel was pretending to be Angelus right?

I still think it's Angel and not Angelus, but interesting dialogue choice.
Just wanted to drop by and provide a link to the on-going SlayAlive Q&A with Scott Allie.
Wait - Twilight is Angel?

Just kidding. :)

Can't wait until after work!!!
At least it wasn't Jean Loring.
Okay, this comment is going to be rather...excoriating. Fair warning.

After reading this issue in the store (nope, didn't end up being enticed to buy) I'm thinking, can't we just kill both of these characters off and start fresh? How about Faith the Vampire Slayer. Who doesn't date vampires or command Slayer armies. Has a nice ring to it. Dump the two-thousand Slayers and everything else that remains of the season seven storyline and let Faith--who as a character is still reasonably intact for the moment--have her own Scooby gang and a new Watcher and no "ensouled" vampire pals making trite romance novel speeches about redemption and how you're a hell of a woman Buffy Summers. I've never been particularly for or against Buffy and Angel's romance, but they just seem tired to me. Not just their romance. The characters themselves. They've both been killed and brought back to life and gone round and round in circles until they've run so far away from the characters I actually understood them to be that they remind me of...well, comic book characters. I haven't actually recognized Buffy Summers since season five of BtVS, and if this is Angel now he was better off dying in that alley.

If they really need to continue the franchise, then for God's sake shine the light on some of the very deserving characters who have been sidelined by all the ridiculous crap that's gone on since season six. I'd even take an alternate universe. This incarnation of Buffy's never going to exist outside of comics from now on anyway so what the hell, go crazy and reset everything and start over. Anything but this tired routine of pulling the rug out from under the audience with contrived and nonsensical "shocking twists" that shamelessly exploit our affection for these characters in the service of cheap stunts and facile plot turns. I sense a Boyd reveal coming. Or maybe an army of ubervamps killed by a magic necklace that conveniently arrives. Or maybe a beloved chracter is about to--gasp!--turn evil. The idea that characters aren't three-dimensional people but rather pieces the writers can move around on a board--an idea that has been with us since James Marsters was made a series regular and the writers needed to come up with a reason for him to be on the show every week, and an idea which went on to torpedo the logical consistency, integrity, and verisimilitude of the show in its final seasons--is on full display here. So now Buffy and Angel are gonna do the deed? Sure. He only tried to lobotomize her best friend and kill thousands of the people she fights alongside. I don't know whether to be outraged or simply bored, because we've been right here so many times before: with a BtVS character (or in fact an AtS character or a Dollhouse character, but that's a separate argument) doing things that make no sense, merely to move the plot along, because at the end of the day they're a cog in the machine of the story. I'm gonna go spend three bucks on a really great corn muffin now.
I did every thing I could to avoid spoilers (partly because I hate all the angst about what everyone thinks it might mean, I'd rather wait for the story to unfold so I can figure out for myself what it all means), I got a copy at my local comic book store, AND I got here before there were hundreds of posts! Yay!

This is VERY entertaining, I still don't believe there will ever be any kind of 'happily ever after' for Buffy and Angel because the living shouldn't marry the dead (though her joke about his picking the name Twilight was hilarious), but I think this is definitely working. It is working for me anyway (and for the record: I've always been a Spuffy shipper).

How many issues before Joss closes Season 8? Because I think there are still a lot of loose ends to tie up!
That's the vibe, Spuffy shippers =) Just keep reading, not all is about pairings. Besides, this looks amazing, I don't think that the kiss it's pure love *sigh*

Joss start writing with #37 right?

[ edited by Sla on 2010-03-03 22:56 ]
The Bangel guy in me makes me sigh happily.

Which means he's really evil, or is going to die, or blah blah blah.

And I'd really like to know where Spike and Angel's crew are now.

Two issues in, Metzler's arc is my favorite of the series. Season 8 floundered for (well) over a year but now we're in a major uptick. Let's hope they stick the landing.
Hurry up and be tomorrow already...ugh!! I gotta sit through Italain neorealism for 6 hours before getting into town to see this...ARGH!!!
Oh Giles. You've been lying to (by virtue of not being completely honest, at least) Buffy AND Faith about the source of their power. I used to love Giles so much. This is very conflicting to me.

Also, I've asked before but never got an answer here: Did that conversation between Giles and those giant green demons in "The Long Way Home" in any way allude to what we are finding out now? That scene has always struck me as very odd, and even more odd that people weren't talking about it. Why would Giles and green demon guy be on some kind of talking terms? Help please!
Sla, 36 if I'm not mistaken.

And just a quick correction: Angel/Twilight didn't try to lobotomize Willow and, really, we don't even know if he was aware that happened. Closed doors and all that. Warren and Amy were the only ones in the room. To say Angel was in direct fault for that (indirect's another story, given him enlisting them) is a heck of a stretch.
Oh and by the way, is Andrew wearing the Ex Machina helmet? hehehehe cute
I can only imagine the reaction the others would give to Willow's last line. It'd probably be like the reaction Tara got to, "She practically had genuine molded plastic stamped on her ass."

Just tryin' a little spicy talk... :)
It was a great issue although yeah,I'm worried for Buffy,for Angel and for my ship.This issue raised more questions then it answered although Scott said it would.
So...umm...ummmmmm...I thought the reveal was a pretty huge fistpump moment, only to be followed by several WTF-inducing details, not least of which is the fact that Angel is actually Angel. If he were Angelus, it would all make sense, while also being super awesome since it would mean the best villain of all time is back in business.

But Angel's actually Angel? Ensouled Angel? I don't get it. I don't get why he would go to war with Buffy, I don't get why he would let so many people die, and most of all, I don't get why he's been talking like a fucking supervillain for 33 issues. I mean, I've been a pretty huge fan of S8, and I am not going to judge this at all by only one issue. I just hope the explanation is good.

[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2010-03-03 23:36 ]
I never got the Angelus vibe from Twilight.I always figured as soon as the leake happened back in Jan. that it was Angel with a soul.I suppoe more answers are coming.
The last half of the issue was kind of a "wtf"? I suppose I'll have to reread from the beginning to be sure, but the explanation doesn't feel like it adds up. I can understand if Angel was undercover with the real bad guys, but that doesn't explain him acting like such a dick. He starts the issue out by slamming Faith face down on the floor and cracking her head open (witness how bloody her head is in the next panel). If he's invulnerable, and one of the good guys, why's that necessary?

(I know why it's necessary-- dramatic tension-- but I mean, if we pretend there's no writers for a moment, why's that necessary?)

Maybe it'll make more sense once more is explained next issue-- after all, the big "why do they have superpowers?" is still unanswered-- but at the moment, it just leaves me with a bad taste, like it's being done more for the sake of plot than because it's the way the characters would actually act.

And while I'm not surprised at Buffy and Angel kissing, or sexing, or even going for the big happily ever after-- that's always been the natural state of those characters, from the beginning-- I think she'd at least demand an explanation first. Considering all the death that's happened, I don't think she'd settle for a vague "This was necessary!"

(Also, while Willow's last line is funny, it doesn't make sense, because she doesn't know Twilight is Angel. She still thinks he's a supervillain. So putting that line in perspective: Willow thinks that Buffy met a supervillain for the first time and is having sex with him five minutes later, and that does not surprise her.)
HOLY CRAP is my first reaction. I knew that I would be jazzed to see these two characters on scene together again but I had no idea the level of WOW it would deliver. More questions than answers but I am very interested to see this play out. :)
I resisted the temptation to read the spoilers before the issue came out, and when I turned the page to find out Twilight is Angel I just about lost my mind. WOW! What a reveal! And this new mythology about what's really happening to Buffy and Angel has me EXTREMELY EXCITED!! This is the first time the season has gotten me that excited!
(I know why it's necessary-- dramatic tension-- but I mean, if we pretend there's no writers for a moment, why's that necessary?) sez dispatch

This is exactly my thought. Joss is not one to favor plot over character, so I'm hoping this is all explained.
Ughh, I can't feel anything, arms, legs, anything. I don't know if I hate it or think it's okay, I definitely don't love it, at least I'm sure about that much....I just don't know!!! This is one of those issues that leaves you with annoying and aggravating questions and worries. Also, I think Buffy is under a spell. If Buffy is not under a spell of some sort( from the glow) then I may FINALLY have to jump ship. Something I believed entirely that I would NEVER do, never even consider doing. Buffy is my favorite series ever of all time and I'll try to withhold judgement till I get some explanations. There's still an (increasingly slim) chance that I could love the ending of this season, I'm just so confused at the moment. On a side note, the long comic book waits are annoying the crap out of me, I'm new to this, =(
I think I'm going with I 'dislike' it for now. My opinions will probably become love or hate by the end of the season, or in the next few issues. My feelings are changeable but intense.....
I haven't read the issue yet but from what people are saying - it seems like it's going to be...upsetting at the very least. All I can say is we've been through worse (Willow as drug addict, Spike tries to rape Buffy, Xander summoned the demon in OMWF), we'll get through this.
I may be alone on this but I don't care. That was hot. To get over it and move on, I have to make a joke. Ready?
They glow together. I wonder if they'll glow in the dark. ;)

I have 2 TPBs and 2 issues of catchup reading to do but I know the main tidbits.
I also want to send out a big pat on the back to anyone who was able to stay unspoiled for this! I'm impressed and proud.
I haven't had time to read the comments and was wondering if anyone had posted a review that's actually a review of the events in the comic itself and not a commentary on those events?
Oh I love it. It's awesome. Even as a B/A shipper, knowing Joss is going to pull the rug out, it's so awesome. I don't even know how to wrap my mind around it all because, even being spoiled for the reveal which was shocking enough to me, I NEVER saw him going this route.

And yes, he's going to upend it all, no way is Joss going happily ever after with B/A, but the ensuing fandom craziness is so entertaining, the issue was so funny (sometimes I think unintentionally) that I'm just going to take Angel's advice within the issue and just "let go" and go with the flow. Or rather, the glow. ;-)
All I can say is we've been through worse (Willow as drug addict, Spike tries to rape Buffy, Xander summoned the demon in OMWF)...


Yup, Xander did indeed summon the demon in OMWF--the demon that killed people by causing them to burn alive. And did Xander ever have any reaction to this other than “whoops”? This is why I jumped ship on BtVS a long time ago and threw up my hands and started writing fanfic instead. Because the writers, starting with Joss, seemed to stop caring about how the characters would actually act in favor of forcing them to act in whatever way would further the stories they wanted to tell.
I may be alone on this but I don't care. That was hot. To get over it and move on, I have to make a joke. Ready?
They glow together. I wonder if they'll glow in the dark. ;)


You are not alone. That WAS hot. Dude, they created a sonic BOOM, as well as glowing. HEE!

And it wasn't just hot - it was tragic and sad too with the whole talk about being happy and how they never get to be, and don't they deserve to be.

Joss is still evil. LOL
It is far stranger than I expected. Very well written, and very much a surprise in where it seems to be going, even spoiled as I was.

So it's an unholy, glowy power. Which Giles has known something about and told no one. That seems probably not so great long term.
Can we add "I think they're f&#@ing" to the quotes up top? :)

This is why I jumped ship on BtVS a long time ago and threw up my hands and started writing fanfic instead. Because the writers, starting with Joss, seemed to stop caring about how the characters would actually act in favor of forcing them to act in whatever way would further the stories they wanted to tell.


Which is what a writer should do. When you're putting out a new piece of episodic television out each week, the story is the most important thing. Fanfic writers have the luxury of much extra time and the lack of responsibility to others.
I was always pissed that Xander summoned the demon in "OMWF" and no one cared. (Even though it's my second favorite episode of the series.) Story isn't the most important thing; the characters are. I've seen pedestrian stories made great by wonderful characters, and I've seen wonderful stories ruined by pedestrian characters.
Which is what a writer should do.


While I appreciate that a weekly TV show presents time pressures and the pressures of network expectations, twisting characters around to fit a story like you're hammering round pegs into square holes really, really, really isn't what a writer should do, ever, in any medium. Because then you're cheating, and you don't really have characters people can believe in anymore. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
While I appreciate that a weekly TV show presents time pressures and the pressures of network expectations, twisting characters around to fit a story like you're hammering round pegs into square holes really, really, really isn't what a writer should do, ever, in any medium. Because then you're cheating, and you don't really have characters people can believe in anymore. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.


Yes, it's cheating, but you're dealing with a multitude of characters in a massive universe. Essentially the biggest issue with Xander summoning the demon is that they don't deal with the ramifications. Is it hard to think they may have taken place off-screen?

Essentially, it's such a good episode that to not do it would be a waste, and it's easier to just pin it on Xander as a joke than to introduce another "Ha, I summoned a demon!!" baddie-of-the-week.

Of course, I'm a fan of story over character, so that may be clouding me here. If one has to take precedence over the other, I lean story and always have.
So... Twilight is...

Huh.

Yeahbuhwhat?
OK, so we still have no clue what is going on. That's okay. A few quick notes:

1) Buffy gave in to Angel at the end, but her first reaction was not to swoon, Twilight's actions be damned: she tried to kill him. I like that--not because I know what's going on, but because Buffy doesn't.

2) Is the glowing a reference to the sparkling vampires in the sun (where Angel is) in Twilight?

3) The comic book references are kind of exhausting me--they were last issue too, but the Andrew thing here was pretty terrible. (I guess Warren had that panhero suit lying around?)

4) Angel and Buffy's dialogue ties in with "Becoming" and Angel's need to become something, spurred on by the first time he ever saw her, referenced here. It's part of what he talked about in "Power Play" as well (paraphrasing, "My whole life I tried to become something...."). That Angel represents the part of Buffy yearning to be something greater than she's ever been makes sense to me.

5) Are they really #*$@ing? Shouldn't Buffy be just a little worried about Angel, even an Angel who's invulnerable and can fly and doesn't go dusty when the sun's up, might experience a little too much joy? But it does seem like she's not really herself, exactly....

5) What is Angel's plan? No clue. We get to hear from Giles next month, I assume.

6) I like how upset Angel seemed at the thought that he had hurt Faith.

7) The general and Warren talk about going back to the way things were or some such--Twilight may not have been their boss per se after all. The power structure is certainly confusing.

8) This could still turn out terrible, and the line-to-line writing of this issue isn't great. But I'm pretty excited to see where this goes.

ETA: Of course, in case it wasn't obvious, Angel & Buffy is played very satirically in this issue. The Twilight reference is pretty knowing.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-03-04 02:25 ]
I'm going to have to go buy this issue aren't I? I won't be satisfied until I do. I mean, like *me* actually paying money for something that has *Bangel* in it....

Well. Crap.
Yes, it's cheating, but you're dealing with a multitude of characters in a massive universe. Essentially the biggest issue with Xander summoning the demon is that they don't deal with the ramifications. Is it hard to think they may have taken place off-screen?


Well, dealing with ramifications is more plot stuff. What I wanted is a simple character moment where Xander actually felt some guilt and shame over his reckless, imbecilic behavior which cost a number of innocent people their lives, but instead he passed it off as a joke, leading me to see him as, frankly, an ass. That's how you damage a character.

Essentially, it's such a good episode that to not do it would be a waste, and it's easier to just pin it on Xander as a joke than to introduce another "Ha, I summoned a demon!!" baddie-of-the-week.


All I would have required is a look of shock and consternation on his face, just for a moment. Then I could have assumed the rest--stern lectures, mopey guilt, pep talks from friends, etc.--was dealt with off-screen. But Joss wanted his big happy ending with the Buffy/Spike kiss as the music swelled and the curtain came down and he got it--and for me at least, he sacrificed Xander as a believable human being who was the logical outcome of all his prior experiences in order to get it. Xander was always the guy who was constantly challenging Buffy and forcing her to face up to the consequences of her actions. And now he does this, and doesn't even give a shit?

Of course, I'm a fan of story over character, so that may be clouding me here. If one has to take precedence over the other, I lean story and always have.


It's cool, we can agree to disagree. And I'm aware that I'm coming off as rather strident and inflexible :) It's just that, for the first four or five seasons of this show, I really was very fond of these characters, and since then, it seems to me that they have been systematically torn down. In the beginning Buffy was my favorite of the group; I really did feel for this lonely girl trying to bear her burden. By season seven I groaned whenever she appeared onscreen to make another one of her endless frigging speeches. It's sort of gone that way with all the main characters, and I had hoped, vainly, that with the comics Whedon might try to right the ship. Instead I feel the writing has gotten even more preposterous, and this ridiculous Twilight business has me shaking my head in wonder at how far all these characters have veered off course. It's almost as if we've been following an alternate universe version of all these characters since the end of season five. It's not just the big things--a lot of it is the little things. Would the Angel you know wear that stupid outfit? He'd laugh at that outfit. Would Buffy ever really go for Xander if the actual actors were playing the roles rather than buff, idealized drawings of the characters? Would Faith really get onboard with any of this? Would Buffy really use some girl she knows is in love with her for quick thrills? Would Willow and Kennedy actually make sense together as a couple if Alyson Hannigan and Iyari Limon were still playing them, with their complete and obvious lack of chemistry together?

Okay, I'm rambling. Just offering a taste of my crushing disappointment at the ongoing destruction of these characters I had such fondness for.
I'm sorry, this is still an upsetting prospect for me. (The egotist in me is glad S-8 dropped from my personal fanon just before Harmony's unreality show.) But I will buy it first oppportunity.

Hellmouthguy TheDarkShape This was more an S-7 than an S-6 problem but as time went by the whole Honest Emotional Moments part of the story became less and less emphasized. I mean, we should have seen Buffy, xander , or Dawn, or even Spike, somewhere in S-7, tap Willow a on the shoulder and say "Hey, I miss her, too."

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2010-03-04 02:45 ]
Alright.
That was absolutely awesome.
The issue was bloody hilarious, as well as really emotional between Buffster and Angelcakes. I can't wait to see where this is going.
Well. Huh.

Are those sharks swimming below?
Can we get back to discussion about the issue, itself? K Thanks.
This issue is my absolute favorite since "Anywhere But Here," and for the first time, I'm dying to go back and read every issue of the season. Something that many TV shows, including Buffy do are these huge, amazing, emotional retcons that really enhance the story the second time around. This issue, in a matter of ten pages, did just that. What Scott, Joss, and everyone said about the Twilight reveal not really mattering that much at the end of the day is true. In fact, I'm kind of glad I knew because instead of sitting in shock as I finished the issue, I got to enjoy the chilling moment and raw emotion between two characters I love so very much.

Oh and there's that incredibly creepy Buffyverse-encompassing mythology that was hinted at. That was pretty cool too. I really do love Season 8.
In the solicitation for the next ish it says, "Twilight has been unmasked. Buildings fall, oceans churn, and the earth moves as titans come together in a bizarre twist!" Do you think that the afforementioned f#@%ing of Buffy and Angel literally causes buildings to fall, oceans to churn, and the earth to move?
I kinda hope so!
I really loved this issue very much, and even though I am a spuffy I really love seeing them glow-kiss. Sure there are unanswered questions, like why the need to almost kill Faith? (although as WilliamtheB said above, he seemed to not realize he hurt her that much and almost regretful) But I'm sure all will be answered soon enough. Can't wait

First post here btw

Oh oh and I just realized it's completely light outside and Angel's fine!!
Welcome to all the first-time posters.

So, I've read enough to get the gist of what's going on and I have to say that I'm flabbergasted. Not only by the comic but by reactions I've read, mostly here, sad to say.

You guys can't honestly think it's romantic for Buffy to bone Angel just minutes after he revealed that he's Twilight? I mean, seriously? Seriously?
You guys can't honestly think it's romantic for Buffy to bone Angel just minutes after he revealed that he's Twilight? I mean, seriously? Seriously?


Amen.
In the solicitation for the next ish it says, "Twilight has been unmasked. Buildings fall, oceans churn, and the earth moves as titans come together in a bizarre twist!" Do you think that the afforementioned f#@%ing of Buffy and Angel literally causes buildings to fall, oceans to churn, and the earth to move?
I kinda hope so!


Hee! Wouldn't that be simply AWESOME! I had forgotten the solicitation said that but now I hope so too. I mean, if they really are shagging, MID-AIR, WHILE GLOWING AND CAUSING A SONIC BOOM, then causing buildings to fall, oceans to churn and the earth to move seems the next logical step.

Seriously...simply awesome. And I love how crazy this is making the fandom in so many ways. It's such good fun!

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-03-04 04:18 ]
You guys can't honestly think it's romantic for Buffy to bone Angel just minutes after he revealed that he's Twilight? I mean, seriously? Seriously?

I second your Amen Hellmouthguy. I still don't know how to quote other posts though. Witness my incredible newbie-ness.
I second your Amen Hellmouthguy. I still don't know how to quote other posts though. Witness my incredible newbie-ness.


Hey KaileeA42, I share your newbieness. Click on How to Tips right above the posting box and scroll down to the examples. At the point where it gives you the example from SoddingNancyTribe, it shows the code you need to paste before and after the text you want to quote. Just copy and paste those codes.

On topic: I simply don't understand how people can think it's cool that Buffy and Angel are getting busy when Buffy knows he killed so many of her people. Can someone who likes this explain how it makes sense for her to act this way?
Yeah ... I can't feel anything for this until the arc wraps up and everything will be (hopefully) explained. Does it make sense for them to bone right after? No. I was sold on the first issue in the arc and was with it till the reveal, which I knew was coming, but it kind of fell apart right there.

Also, I had money on it being her father, Hank.
Buuuut I guess that didn't go as I thought. I figured hey, dude disappeared, didn't care to attend the funeral of his wife, Joyce Summers, mother of Buffy, and through flashbacks we saw that it was Buffy being chosen that drove the family apart. Figured he resented her and probably felt Buffy in a way caused her mothers death. Remember when Buffy thought he showed up at her school and told her he couldn't see her again because of what she's done? Harsh'd. Then all of a sudden, hundreads of Slayers? Hundereds of little girls ruining their families and being all feminist? It could have been pretty emotional and epic with girl power, and family is what you choose and also with the whole Father Figure Whedon typically disapproves of. But minus the Darth Vaderness inherent in the idea. I dunno.
Hellmouthguy- Honestly, my only explanation for her acting like she is is that she's under some kind of spell or influence from the random glow-y thing. And Angel likely is also.Thanks for the info too, BTW. I'll actually be REALLY disappointed if she ISN'T under something because then this whole "Oh look at our beautiful TWU WUV connection of glow and wonder!!!" would seem cheesy in the extreme to me. Like, Breaking Dawn cheesy, and Joss is so much better than that, so I hope this all turns out well..... Also, she looks completely out of it on the 'Twilight' TPB cover, so that would support my theory......
I'm new too!

I just got my issue...I dont know what to make of it I need to do a second read through (as I'm at work) but there is something definitely off about Angel how he can be so cavalier as "Twilight" and then when he reveals himself he acts like "Angel" and that nothing is wrong.
I really wish there was more of a showdown between Buffy and Angel. In season 4 of Angel I really wanted Buffy to be the one to take Angelus down I thought that would have been epic to see.

I'm looking forward to issue 35 to see how it all pans out but I definitley think there will be a falling out with the scooby gang.
Also, I had money on it being her father, Hank.


Hank would've been interesting, especially for the reasons you cite, the only potential weakness being he just hasn't been featured for years and a lot of readers who aren't experts in the lore might have been like, "huh?" But I would've really liked it, especially with the justifications you mention on Hank's part--girls destroying their families and the world. I personally picked Future Xander, who has the right to lecture Buffy about her choices, and who could've justified his decision to oppose her by pointing out all the damage Buffy has done not only to the world, but to her friends as well--I'm thinking especially of Future Willow having to die and seeming to be utterly joyless, but also Tara, Anya, Jenny, etc. And Twilight dialogue sounds more natural coming from Xander than Angel, who really should think the whole Twilight routine is ridiculous.
Arabchick: I totally agree. It was hot! The glowing, the suuuurrrging with power, the long awaited reunion! It was all great for me. I have plenty of questions as to where it is going, but I am still thrilled by this development.

I mean, Buffy has spent this whole season feeling MORE isolated from the world than she EVER has, and that is saying something indeed. ("I miss my home. I miss the gang....And sex. Great, muppity Odin, I miss that sex....Suck it up Summers.") Also, the whole "Maybe you don't get to feel connected" bit from Xander. She is simply dying for connection! It has been said before, but that seems to be the theme of this season. It makes absolute sense that Buffy would do the down-hill slide right back into her comfort zone...er, Angel...er, that wasn't supposed to be dirty.


Anyways I am thrilled that there is plot happening, that things seem to be falling apart at the same time they are coming together in the most intriguing way. Gosh, I am just all abuzz.
Hellmouthguy: I totally get your complaint about Xander in OMWF. To me, that is the moment that ALMOST spoiled the whole episode. But then I realized that I could just take the rest of the greatness of OMWF for what it was. I could accept that sometimes the writers need a Deus ex Machina just to tell those stories they need to tell.

And by the way, I'll ask again, does anyone think that the helmet that Andrew is wearing in that one panel is the one from "Ex Machina" (a Brian K Vaughn comic, if you are not familiar...) or am I crazy?

[ edited by 5X5B on 2010-03-04 04:49 ]
5X5B-So you're saying that she's so sex-starved that she's just gagging for it when Angel shows up and it's totally okay for Buffy to shrug off the deaths of hundreds of slayers so they can join the mile-high club?
Hellmouthguy, I never would have thought of a Future Xander as an option, I would have picked that! The dialog does fit him. I always loved it when Xander ripped into Buffy for giving up, for running, for not giving her all or just thinking about herself. It was his power!

I'm also seeing how maybe Bill Willingham's run will actually help out making Angel-as-Twilight, even though he went in not knowing about it.
5x5B, the helmet is from Star Wars. x-wing pilots wore them on the attack against the Death Star.
Willow was wrong. Buffy's new powers and Angel's powers come from the same source -- and it's not dead slayers. We have to tune in next time to find out.


I didn't get that. I feel Buffy IS getting her powers from the dead slayers, but the WHY has yet to be revealed. Also, the thing is, the potentials were all awoken when Willow magicked the scythe - and that wasn't something that would have happened naturally in the Slayer world without Willow's intervention - so I'm not sure how they'll explain things if it does turn out that the dead slayers have given Buffy a power she's destined to have, if the scythe being magicked was never a part of the natural Slayer destiny. Unless of course, it was. LOL Did I even make sense here? :P

(Newbie here: first post, so I hope I quoted correctly!)
I have never read comics before Buffy so maybe I dont understand but I am starting to get frustrated with all the comic book references by Andrew and him dressing up he was good in season 7 but in Season 8 he is ridiculous and that panel with him dressed up trying to take on Angel just infuriated me I kinda was hoping Angel would kill him.
Welcome newbies. (you left a tag unclosed, wiindonfan. happens all the time.)

We're talking about Buffy Summers here. When has she made a choice about love and/or sex that wasn't somehow flawed?

This is going to end gruesomely. I'm glad to be hanging on for the ride.

Okay. Another awful joke. Ready?
The Glowing. Its Effulgence for Effulgence's sake. :)
I must have read a different comic. Because in the one I read, Buffy was by NO MEANS shrugging off the deaths of slayers. But then again, in my issue Angel wasn't the one who killed them either, so....

Still loving it. Oh yes. *g*
Well it seems that Hellmouthguy has won the day for stirring up fandom-emotion! And I truly respect this, because I love these kinds of discussions.

My point, in general, to Hellmouthguy's complaints about Buffy seasons 6-8 is that I have witnessed first hand, and second hand, dramatic changes in human behavior in people from high school years through young adult-hood.

You don't recognize Buffy and gang anymore from their high school selves? Yeah! It's tough. I had a motivated, altruistic friend turn drug addict in young adulthood, and then back again. I felt I didn't know him either, and I still wonder if I do. The connections to Willow are almost uncanny.

I personally feel the same for Buffy, Xander, and the rest of them. Clearly the supernatural stories take these things to extremes, but witnessing such dramatic changes in loved ones in my own life, Season 8 is ringing true to me.

Further, how disappointing would it be if Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles/Angel never made drastic missteps? Again, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I think that some of these rather large character flaws in the Buffyverse represent the kinds of things that many of us have witnessed in our own lives. I can't wait to see how this all plays out!
menomegirl: Absolutely not. I don't think that Buffy f***ing Angel/Twilight is acceptable/moral/healthy for Buffy. What I do think is that Buffy has been experiencing incredible torment, loneliness, and self-doubt; to see the one man that she ever truly loved (in my opinion at least), would be an incredible temptation. I know that I have made horrible smoochie-choices in my life because of loneliness and nostalgia.

Not to mention that Buffy herself acknowledged in her thought-bubbles that she knew that Angel was "right," or at least she felt that way.

Again, no, no, no. This "reunion" is twisted, but for someone as emotionally distraught as Buffy, it makes sense in its twisted way.

PS: the goose: Thanks for that. I thought I finally picked up on a cool comic book in-joke! Oh well...
Hmm... perhaps time to kinda chime in.
A) Buffy isn't "gagging for it" when she first sees Angel. She pretty much returns to favor of his churching her in #11. Except with a giant stake shaped from the trunk of an entire tree. Then proceeds to fight him, all the time while he's talking.
B) I'm seeing a disconnect here for the rationale for it being okay to be Future Xander, but not Angel who is Twilight. Does it make it less morally reprehensible to come back from the future to teach Buffy a lesson (geez, that already sounds mildly sexist, pedantic, and patriarchal) about her her missteps by killing a bunch of her girls, and put her through hell? More so, than say, if Angel is to be believed, that he was minimizing damage done? Yes, girls died, but a lot more could've been killed if he hadn't stepped in. IF, he's not lying. Is one that much better than the other?
And it's not just a "greater good" math thing. Angel admits it himself, that he did what he did to push Buffy into what she's become now (e.g. all super-powered). What she's become is referenced a couple of times vaguely, but that still remains to be ironed out. It sounds foreboding, though.
The way Angel described all that happened in LA as "funky" it's like AtS events never existed.
You guys can't honestly think it's romantic for Buffy to bone Angel just minutes after he revealed that he's Twilight? I mean, seriously? Seriously?

Um, yes. We do.
Hee! God, this has been such a good day. Wenxina....word.

I particularly appreciate this:

A) Buffy isn't "gagging for it" when she first sees Angel. She pretty much returns to favor of his churching her in #11. Except with a giant stake shaped from the trunk of an entire tree. Then proceeds to fight him, all the time while he's talking.

I haven't seen this much Buffy hate since the height of the B/S affair in season 6 and the followup to it in season 7. It's kinda sad, but I suppose not unexpected. Me, I'm still in the wait and see mode.

-Luc
Things to consider about the final sonic boom, and whether it's too soon or morally repugnant, etc., for Buffy to make that kinda noise with Angel/Twilight:

* Her first reaction was to stake him with a tree. Unsuccessfully.

* Her second, third, and fourth reactions were to beat him to a pulp. Also unsuccessfully.

* All the while, Angel is patiently, if cryptically, explaining that he was acting to "keep the body count as low" as possible until Buffy finally evolved into Superbuffy.

* And most importantly, they are glowing. Why? What's that about? We don't know, but it is clearly very powerful, head-spinning stuff. (Angel: "It's singing. It's joy, Buffy.")

Given all of that, and their history, and Buffy's constant support of Angel's never-ending path toward redemption, and the months and months of stewing juices, the kiss and f#@%ing make all the sense in the world.
Also, this is only the second time Buffy and Angel have ever had sex. She's been waiting a long time.

Not that that in any way justifies it, but after everything everyone else has said, maybe I can sort of see where she's coming from? Maybe?
Chiming in late here, so this'll probably go unread but...

I know it's almost silly to post this to a "fandom" full of self described "shippers" and writers of fan fiction, but this comes from the heart.

You didn't create Buffy. Unless your name is Joss Whedon. You didn't pour seven years of your life (+5 on Angel and now two years of comics) into this story.

Stop acting like anyone owes you anything. Okay, just enjoy the fact that someone is still writing this story, that there are people out there what are providing us with Buffy content.

Buffy's f'ing glowing people! She's going through a profound mystical change, as is Angel. Willow can project a giant floating head! how crazy right?

I'm just so sick of everything being so amazing, and nobody being happy.
Rocknjosie, I have to commend you on you're post. I'm more of a lurker on here, but I have to say that you inspired me to post! LOL! This issue was epic and and there's so much more to talk about than Buffy and Angel kissing or screwing. There's a new story about to be revealed! That last panel with Angel saying about joy and happiness was heart-wrenching even if he can't be redeemed for what he's done. It seems to me that a lot of people have lost all joy in this fandom,imho.
Hellmouthguy:

You remember that talk which we were having on the other thread? About how I disagreed for the moment? The moment is past. The boink sent me over to your side. You win. And your points about character above are, BTW, very well taken by this poster...there comes a point in every long-running fictional series, I think, where the writer/s just stop thinking about consequences -- in terms of what they should do to characters -- and start thinking about them purely in terms of plot. The show/series/sequels/etc. never quite recover.

wenxina:

I'm seeing a disconnect here for the rationale for it being okay to be Future Xander, but not Angel who is Twilight. Does it make it less morally reprehensible to come back from the future to teach Buffy a lesson (geez, that already sounds mildly sexist, pedantic, and patriarchal) about her her missteps by killing a bunch of her girls, and put her through hell?

I think you're misrepresenting Hellmouthguy's chain of thought. It would, in fact, be just as morally reprehensible for Future Xander to do what Twilight has done. The comic-book aspects of Twilight's villainy would, however, be more in character with Xander than Angel. Hellmouthguy is arguing from a position, not of morality, but of character consistency.

Also, sexist? It would be sexist for Xander to "teach Buffy a lesson"? So...and I'm really not trying to start a flame here, but I feel I need to register an objection to this on principle...what would make that sexist? Is it inherently sexist and patriarchal when a man corrects a woman? 'Cause I'm just unaware of any reasonable defense of that position. I mean, Future Xander coming back and killing thousands of Slayers (plus committing sundry other ignoble acts) could certainly be seen as villainous and evil, no matter what the justification for it...and isn't that as far as you would need to go?

And everyone who supports the boink:

Really, I don't see where you're coming from. Okay...so Buffy tried to stake Angel. Right and all. Then she tried to beat Angel down. Again, seems like a sound reaction. Angel is busy explaining that he was doing everything possible to minimize his damage. Okay, fine...perhaps he was. If Angel is the character I believe him to be, then the horrible acts he's assisted with/committed have no doubt been for noble reasons, which may ( from some point of view) potentially excuse them, or at the very least mitigate them. This far, I agree with you.

And then I leave the track. Because Angel has a responsibility to &%$#ing explain himself, RIGHT THE HELL NOW. Not with the cryptic comments, not with the battle banter. He needs to lay out his case, and if he needs to do so while dodging Buffy's attacks, then he should. It's not as though Buffy Summers is immune to reason, and it's not as though she has never been forthcoming with the benefit of the doubt for Angel. If she thinks what he's saying makes some kind of sense, then she'll stop the offensive for long enough to listen to him.

And more to the point, Buffy has a responsibility -- and a hell of a lot of reason -- to DEMAND that explanation. With everything that Twilight has done...with everything that his actions have cost Buffy...it is literally inconceivable that the hints toward an explanation she gets here would be enough to satisfy her temporarily, let alone for her to be willing to do the deed with Twilight. It's insulting to the character -- to her training, to her maturity, to her reserve and resolve. I don't care how lonely she is, or how hungry for a connection. This isn't something she can write off. "Okay, righteous anger, I want you to go on a lunch break for twenty minutes or so. No, y'know what? Make it an hour. Maybe two. Hormones, you're up. Show me what ya got."

Buffy the 17-year-old girl giving into temptation with her incredibly solicitous and caring boyfriend? That I buy. Buffy the mid-20's-uber-Slayer doing the same thing with someone who's been battling her the whole season, who is responsible for misery, torment, torture, and death? Sorry. Can't buy it. Won't. I don't care if it is Angel.
This is a lively and interesting discussion about a real 'game changer' of an issue, I feel bad that it is already off the front page! Couldn't be relinked to the front page to continue the discussion?
Rocknjosie, I'm happy, very very happy. The majority of fans that I have encountered aren't having this reaction. When the Buffy hate runs rampant, you know a certain element of fandom that isn't always present, has shown up.

What I can not wait to find out is how the mythology is going to change. What ARE Buffy and Angel now. Is Angel's curse really gone? For good?
Something else that kind of worries me....is there going to be another fall out between Buffy and Giles? We have all assumed that the closest and most unexpected betrayal was Twilight but what if it's not? Buffy didn't seem all that put out with Angel at the end of the issue and according to the description for the next one, that's going to last for at least one more issue.
It's also a little upsetting that Willow is getting it all wrong. What will that mean for her? I pretty much just have a million and one, more questions than I had before this issue.
One thing is for sure though, you never see Joss coming. I can "feel" his presense in this story and I love it.

ETA...why isn't this on the front page? How odd.

[ edited by cheryl on 2010-03-04 07:37 ]
rocknjosie: Those of us who are complaining did not create Buffy the Vampire Slayer in any way, shape, or form. But -- speaking for myself -- I have supported it, and its spinoff, and its merchandising in various forms, for some time now. I have given Joss Whedon a lot of my time, money, and support. And I imagine that other people you're calling out have done so as well. In return, we ask for only one thing: good stories. If we don't think we've gotten them, I think we've a right to complain a bit about it.

If Buffy Season 8 works for you, great. I'm happy for you. Large parts of it haven't quite clicked for me, but I've stuck with it, in the hopes that it would (from my standpoint) get better. If Bangel's aerial snugglies are your cuppa, then again, fantastic for you. So you found them acceptable in story terms, and you think we're wrong and ungrateful for complaining about it. Perhaps we are. It is then incumbent on you, not to call us out for complaining (Just get with the program, you guys! Jeez!), but to make a case to us as to why we're wrong.

I think Joss Whedon is a hella awesome storyteller. I have initially supported everything he's done on that basis -- that the man knows how to tell stories I like to see. But I'm not prepared to just indiscriminately consume his works. I don't think it's unreasonable to hold him to a higher standard, given how invested I am in what he's created. People like me aren't just satisfied with any new Buffy story. It's not that we aren't glad he's still writing them -- we're complaining only because his previous efforts have set the bar really high, and we think this latest effort isn't clearing the bar. (Frankly, I think it's doing the limbo.) I don't think he would have it any other way, frankly -- he WANTS to be the kind of writer, and to tell the type of story, that gets fans this riled up.

I don't think Season 8 is unsalvagable...yet. But its integrity did take a hit for me today. If you'd care to make your case as to why I'm wrong, I'll listen. I have an open mind. But don't call people like me ungrateful just because we're not as willing to jump on the bandwagon as you are.
@BAFfler: I'm challenging the notion that it's somehow more acceptable if Future Xander was doing whatever it is that Angel's doing right now. That's all. As for character consistency, I don't see Xander wanting to hurt his friend to "teach her a lesson". As for sexist/patriarchal bit, it's not so much the idea of Xander doing it, but the notion that the wayward woman needs to be put in her place by the wiser man. The trope is sexist. It's pretty much the Watchers' Council all over again. All "We know better. You're the Slayer, merely our tool. Do our bidding."

ETA: Just to be clear, I wasn't challenging Hellmouthguy's claim per se. Just the notion that's been tossed about back in the Twilight-speculation days that it would either make sense, or be appropriate for Future Xander to be doing what he does as Twilight.

[ edited by wenxina on 2010-03-04 08:09 ]
@BAFfler: You aren't a shareholder in a company. Your time, money, and support were given voluntarily, for whatever reason compelled you to do so. There's no asking in return, the Buffy franchise owes you nothing.

I'm not sure what's supposed to be clicking. Buffy, Willow and Xander are going off on adventures. I love Buffy, Willow, and Xander, why wouldn't I want to follow their adventures?

And seriously, did you just use the word Bangel? Is that some sort of hip way to say bagel? Is it a new hair style?

Joss didn't write this, Brad Metzler did. Sure Joss put his name on it, approved it, but the writing is Metzlers. The majority of the plot points, of course, Joss layed down.

If we're talking solely about Buffy and Angel (note how each name was spelled in full) then I think the burden is on you, to explain how you came to know so much about what a person glowing means, what physical effects it has on them, and whether or not it constitutes an altered state of mind. Cause, from what I saw, pretty altered. And from what I've experienced through meditation and um, other means, pretty altered.

And who said anything about jumping on a bandwagon? This isn't deciding to support a new political candidate it's enjoying a work of fiction. But mostly it's about the fact that Buffy is on its 8th season of content, 8th! Everytime I walk into the comic book store and it's new Buffy day, it's a really f'ing good day.

And I am under no obligation to prove to the internet why. I do have the physical ability to tell you you're being a cranky pants though.
Love how every month the first comment are always "havent got mine yet and cant wait". Don;t suppose y'all would consider waiting 2 or 3 days to put the post up??? supose not.
And I am under no obligation to prove to the internet why. I do have the physical ability to tell you you're being a cranky pants though.


I'd rather you didn't. I'm not terribly fond of what I perceive to be poster bashing.
wenxina: I don't see Xander wanting to hurt his friend, either. Future Xander, on the other hand, might have been an entirely different kettle of fish. But I certainly think that there's a good case to be made that what we've seen of Twilight doesn't jibe well with Angel. As for the sexism of the trope, I'm sorry you see it that way. I think that sort of interpretation would be just plain wrong in a situation like the one we were talking about. But...very well. Agree to disagree, and all that.

rocknjosie: It's interesting to me that YOU'RE the one using the harsher language, calling me names, and telling me to just stop whinging about something I didn't like...and yet you think I'm the one who's "being a cranky pants." (Seriously? Cranky pants? I mean...really, though...)

Perhaps I should make something clearer. See, we've explained our dislike of the plot point at issue. We've laid out our reasons. Dismissing us out of hand is not the way to convince us of anything. Perhaps I should have said that it's incumbent on you to make your case IF you actually want to have a discussion about this. But it's becoming apparent that far from discussing, you just want those people who have criticisms to shut up and not bother you with our thoughts. (May I suggest skipping over our comments, then, so we'd all be happy?)

So what did I learn from your none-too-civil post?

* That if I lay down money for a product I expect to be good, and it doesn't meet my expectations, I shouldn't bother to complain about it, because "I'm not a shareholder." (Please note, by the by, that I never said Joss Whedon, or his creative team, was OBLIGED to do anything for me.)

* That it's enough for some people if the brand name is on the product, regardless of any inherent quality that the actual product itself has or doesn't have. But then again, I knew such people existed, so that wasn't really something I learned.

* That you mock people who use commonly accepted 'shipping terms, solely in order to score meaningless rhetorical points.

* That blaming Joss Whedon for something I don't like about this issue is out of line, because Brad Metzler wrote the issue. Whedon, meanwhile, only created the characters and the series, executive-produced every bit of canon fictional content, and laid out the general arc for the season (with, I'm sure, many specific plot points).

* That, while you don't believe it's your obligation to provide some actual reasons why people like me are wrong (rather, it's enough to note that we are -- and that we should just shut up and enjoy what we're given), it's my obligation to explain some phenomenon within the comic. See, I'd just like to note here that this whole glowing business might have made an actual productive rebuttal, had you phrased it that way...

* That you apparently think your experiences with meditation and drug use (or whatever the "other means" was) are somehow relevant to being able to interpret said comic-book phenomenon.

Yup, that's about it.
Next week on Passions!

[ edited by azzers on 2010-03-04 10:49 ]
I've had a chance to read through the issue again and it just doesnt click for me, I mean it doesn't sound like Angel to me he sounds very Angelus like. If he was Angel and he is "good" why the excessive force with Faith? Hey you really helped me out a while ago let me say thank you by slamming your face into the ground. It just doesnt jibe.
From the character of Angel we know to Twilight there is alot of stuff we dont know and I hope that gets explained in the next few issues, for instance the Twilight symbol has been around for a while its on the book Roden carrys (he calls it a guidebook and says he knows how it ends) its carved into the general's chest and so on. I'm just wondering if "Twilight" isnt Angel but a force or power that is working through him?
The new mythos or prophecy sounds intriguing though and I'm interested to see where that leads and if "Twilight" is the prophecy.
I hope they touch on Amy and Warren how is Willow ok with doing a spell with Amy? After what she did to her in Season 7 The Killer in Me? OR Warren who almost lobotomized her at the start of this season? I guess finding Twilight is more important at that present time I just hope it doesnt get skimmed over.
We're at the top of the rollercoaster and I cant wait to see where it goes in the last remaining issues!
Hey fandom, how's that glowy matey thing workin' out for ya?
Umm, as someone pointed out waaaay above, Angel was concerned when he hurt Faith. He clearly meant to hold her off, and whatever mind-altering glowy thing thats affecting him (and Buffy now) made him forget his strength when he threw her to the ground.

"Faith?...Oh C'mon, you're stronger than that. Faith...?" That + the expression lends me to believe that was genuine concern and remorse for using too much force on Faith.

Whatever's going on, I think we can agree that both Angel and Buffy aren't exactly in Sane-ville; and Angel alludes to some sort of prophecy or whatever WHICH WE HAVE YET TO HEAR ABOUT that could explain why. I'm confused as hell; but I still have faith in the writers to explainy.

Also there seems to be some hate for the nerd references in these issues; I'd just like to offer up the counter point that I think they're great and perfectly in character with Xander and how he'd deal with the revelation of Super-Buffy
I don't quite get the "wow is this romantic" reaction. I mean, isn't it completely obvious that this subversion squared of the Buffy/Angel realtionship.

Buffy falls into Angels arms,not out of her own will (because she clearly did not believe him when he tried to wriggle out of the responsibility for his murders), but because she's mystically compelled. Worse if what Angel says is true, their love was never real but only due to a magical influence.

Buffy looses her free will in this scene, that's not romantic, that's this seasons version of her going catatonic.

I like it though, basically it confronts an issue heads on that I always had with Buffy and Angel together, namely that they both seem to regress. It also subverts the destined love trope. Buffy swear love always and forever and can go without each other, but it's hollow, because they don't have free will anymore and are puppets in a game of higher powers.
Ha Ha ! Yesterday, I was dying not knowing, now I know a lot and I'm surprised that many people judge before seeing what will happen in the next issues.

We know nothing yet.
We should give Joss the benefit of the doubt. He is Joss after all.

The thought of Angel/Buffy together again is what I dreamt for a long time. And I can endure more !
My only care is how they will connect Buffy Season 8 with Angel season 6. Do not ruin "After The Fall" and all the prophecy about Angel's future in the Apocalypse.

So let's expect more of this story. Personnaly, I want more !
@CarpeNoctem with reference to the scene with Faith and Angel it is very hard to tell what expression he was wearing under the mask. I understand both viewpoints that he sounded sympathetic but to me though it reminded me alot of the line from Angel season four when Angelus sets Faith up with the Beast and he says "come on Faith thought you'd enjoy a threesome". I think Angel is well aware of his strength, he threw a church at Buffy I would say thats a good indicator.
I'm interested in this glowing as well and where it is going to lead and as people have said with the reveal of the trade paperback cover I dont think Buffy is acting of her own free will. With the comic book references they were good in the show but I think they are too heavy in the comics and I've never had a problem with Xander and I liked Andrew in season 7, in this season not so much.
I wish these comics were weekly :(
Buffy swear love always and forever and can go without each other, but it's hollow, because they don't have free will anymore and are puppets in a game of higher powers


Well there's been many an example of the PTB messing around with Buffy and Angel before. Especially Angel. Coming back from hell, all that stuff that went down in Angel season 4 (the birth of Connor was part of Jasmine's plan etc). Poor bloke can't get a break.
Or maybe we'll find out that this whole season was a dream of Xander's - after all he makes out pretty well in it and what better way to destroy Angel to Buffy than to make him an enemy with whom she is forced to 'glow'!
It's honestly disgusting to me that anyone has read this issue and think Angel comes off with a morally clean slate. By his own description of his actions and motives, he's responsible for dozens if not hundreds of deaths. He could have STOPPED a lot of these things, maybe all of them, acting directly against them, but instead he chose to manipulate and guide these events, figure out which losses would be the acceptable ones as long as it pushed Buffy in the direction of glowy, unholy-powered sex.

A short and non-exhaustive list? Ethan Rayne -- executed shortly after having tried to warn Buffy about the threat. Genevieve Savidge, who would have gone right on being a snotty little aristocrat, but instead was enticed into game-hunting other Slayers and attacking Buffy by Roden, the man Angel sent to do the job. Angel could have stopped the Toru thing in its tracks if he hadn't apparently seen it as a good "test" of Buffy -- so Aiko, Renee, and who knows how many others get to die for his agenda.

Gonna copy something I mentioned on another forum --
In Season 5, Angel's ruse centered on convincing the Black Thorn that he had killed a lieutenant. In order to do this, he created the illusion that he had allowed Illyria to be brought in and had allowed Fred to be infected. Not that he had done these things, just that he had allowed these things. At the time, the thought was enough to convince Wes, Gunn, Lorne, and Spike that Angel was gone, that he had forgotten himself completely.

He has spent all of Season 8 doing exactly what he only pretended to do in Season 5. And you're here saying he hasn't been killing anyone?


Angel, even as Angelus, has never been more evil than he admitted to being in 8.33, and there are people whitewashing it. Why? Because they're GLOWING! and KISSING!

PS -- Joss, if the glowing and kissing are actually to be taken at face value, and there's no ironic twist or insidious undertones to them? Stop making fun of Stephenie Meyer. You don't get to mock Twilight if you're going to be way-the-hell cheesier than anything she ever put in one of those books.
Just read it today.

I'm really not sure how I feel right now. The first half of the comic was amazing. After the reveal, things started to get weird.

The Buffy/Twilight fight was pretty epic. But then it seems like she gave too easily. If it were an episode of TV, she would have started F#@%ing him about a minute and a half after saying, "You killed 206 of my girls!"

The whole "glowing' thing better be done properly. As it stands, it's terribly cliche and the whole romance aspect of "joy" and "us" and whatnot is WAAY too Twilight (with the sparkling vampires, not the villain).

I am very intrigued about the "true history of the universe" in the next issue. Although, I'll be pretty upset if it's a retcon of established mythology. The source of their powers? At first, I thought it meant Buffy's superman powers, but Twilight mentioned Faith, too. Could it be they're going to retcon the source of the slayer power?

Someone further up in the thread said that they might have to jump ship. I might have to do the same if things are resolved very well. I trust Joss, though.

Also, Hellmouthguy said to wipe everything and start over with "Faith the Vampire Slayer." And while I want to see the rest of this season before I jump on the "start over" bandwagon, I really want Faith to have her own series. Given her personality, past, and character, she is screaming to be the lead in her own series.

Which begs this question: Dark Horse has decided not to do anything with Joss' work that he can't be directly involved in (AKA "executive producer"). Which is the reason we've been given by Scott Allie for the lack of spin-offs, miniseries, and whatnot. How much work is really for Joss to be an executive producer for a comic book? Isn't it mostly just looking over scripts to make sure everything lines up? Granted, I'm sure I'm over simplifying it, but I know a lot of people who would love an on-going Faith book. Think about it: Joss was, at one point, executive producing three television series - and he's stated in interviews that there isn't an episode of any of his shows that doesn't include a piece of dialog written by him. So in comparision, I don't think executive producing two comic books would be too difficult. Would it?

I say we petition Dark Horse for a Faith series. An actual petition. Or we should all send them toy alligators or something.
I think, it's quite popular opinion, that when he was Executive Producing three shows at a time, two of them suffered quite a bit. At least that's the impression I got over the years, talking to people.

ETA: Back to the topic on hand for a bit, I don't think that Angel is entirely on the level with Buffy here. From all the guilty looks, horrified expressions, and all that hand-waving, what Buffy's become doesn't necessarily mean anything good. Giles is extremely foreboding in saying that regardless of what Buffy does, there will be no winning. So, no, I don't think that Angel is teling Buffy the whole truth here. However, what she feels about what he's telling her about them, that much may be true. She's quite clearly acting a little weird, like she's been taken over by the glowy.

[ edited by wenxina on 2010-03-04 14:34 ]
I wonder if Joss has decided to apply TNSTAAFL to the Shadowmen's spell. He applied it to Angel's curse in the form of the perfect happiness clause. Maybe there's a clause in the spell they used to start the line that will trigger one of the Slayers to become near-unstoppable uber, probably evil? And that's why the Council has always controlled them so closely, even why they used Cruciamentum which, on its face, seemed likely only to kill off the strongest Slayers (maybe that was the point?).

Just throwing stuff out there.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the Cruciamentum to kill the "weakest" (least adaptable, least resourceful, etc) Slayers?
No, because those get killed off before their eighteenth birthdays anyway. The strongest are the ones the Council would have had a harder time controlling.
Yes, but Slayers aren't necessarily extremely young in the first place. And what about the Slayers that pass the Cruciamentum? Are those the uber-Slayers then? The ones that need to be taken out.
What happens when the Slayer passes the nigh impossible task/test? Buffy did, and hey, Faith's about the same age... unless of course she went rogue before being tested.
I really did think Twilight was going to be Giles but obviously Giles knows somethin', so maybe I wasn't so far off anyway. As far as this issue goes, I'll reserve my judgement of Buffy or Angel. The issue was very compelling and big and these 2 are obviously stoned on some kind of crazy, so who knows WTF is going on. No need to bash them just yet. Need more issue now!
It's honestly disgusting to me that anyone has read this issue and think Angel comes off with a morally clean slate.

I haven't seen evidence of that in any of the comments I've read here. I've seen people try to explain Buffy's actions, that they make some kind of sense, in terms of the story. There's more to learn about her reasons for giving in to the glow. In the past, Buffy has bedded an unrepentent murderer (Spike) for specific story reasons (existential crisis, depression, a desperate desire to feel alive). Season 8 has offered a few -- her desire for connection, her basic biological needs, her passionate history with Angel -- with the promise of more to come.
how disappointing would it be if Buffy/Willow/Xander/Giles/Angel never made drastic missteps? Again, I'm not trying to pick on you, but I think that some of these rather large character flaws in the Buffyverse represent the kinds of things that many of us have witnessed in our own lives.


Oh, I'm all in favor of drastic missteps--after all, characters need to fail occasionally if we're going to have sufficiently compelling drama. I just don't like missteps that represent cop-outs on the part of the writers (Spike raped Buffy but it's okay that she wants to have sex with him now because he went out and got a soul, Willow is suddenly "addicted to magic" because the writers need a silver bullet explanation of her selfishness and her need to control everything around her and they didn't want her to have to actually face the immorality of what she had done to Tara) or fundamental misconceptions of the characters' core identities (Xander has no problem with the fact that those people all burned to death because of him.) My main problem with season 8 is the fact that it continues the baffling storyline of Buffy the Selfish Bitch which was introduced in season six, expanded upon in season seven, and has now reached its pinnacle, with her having sex with the guy who attacked and killed her friends while her friends sort of just have to wait around until she's done because her ego and her need to get laid are apparently more important to her than they are. She used Satsu even though she knew the girl was in love with her, she latched onto Xander because he happened to be available and no hot vampires were around. She told Faith that Giles never trusted her, a despicable thing to say not only because it was a lie, but also because Buffy knew it was exactly, precisely, the best way to hurt Faith. In season seven she threatened to kill Robin Wood when he had the gall to try to kill the vampire who murdered his mother and took her coat as a trophy. In season six, after a hot sex session, she giggled at Spike's touching story about killing an interior decorator. But that's okay because Spike is hot. So what if he murdered a guy. It was a funny story, and the guy he murdered probably wasn't even hot.

When she was first introduced, Buffy had a big heart. She went to the mat for her friends; she went to the mat for people she didn't even know. In season one, when Buffy first met Amy Madison (Amy who, for reasons which escape me, became a moustache-twirling villain--oh wait, maybe it was "magic addiction"), Buffy was slowly dying because of a spell cast by Amy's mother, and by the end of the episode she was helpless, and moments from death. But she spent what might have been her last moments on earth consoling Amy, a girl she didn't even know, rather than feeling sorry for herself--and this was the first episode after the premiere, when she still hated the idea of being the Slayer, hated the responsibility, hated the unfairness of it. The girl who relegates her friends to second-class status while she makes time for her vampire lovers isn't the girl I recognize and it is a girl I find to be, frankly, so selfish and self-obsessed as to be repugnant.

So, with regards to "Buffy hate"? I don't even acknowledge that this character we've been saddled with since season six is Buffy Summers. If it was revealed next issue that Buffy really did "come back wrong" from the season six resurrection spell I wouldn't be surprised in the least--in fact I would jump for joy at the canon explanation for her bewilderingly selfish behavior since then.

Given all of that, and their history, and Buffy's constant support of Angel's never-ending path toward redemption, and the months and months of stewing juices, the kiss and f#@%ing make all the sense in the world.


I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. It certainly makes sense for the Buffy Summers character we're presented with now--this selfish, vain girl who never fails to put herself ahead of her friends. Not so much for the Buffy we got in seasons 1-5.

Stop acting like anyone owes you anything


A straw man argument if ever there was one. No creative work is above criticism, as I'm sure Joss would be the first to admit.

I think you're misrepresenting Hellmouthguy's chain of thought. It would, in fact, be just as morally reprehensible for Future Xander to do what Twilight has done. The comic-book aspects of Twilight's villainy would, however, be more in character with Xander than Angel.


BAFfler, you've argued these points so eloquently that I find there's little more I can do than say, "what BAFfler said." With regard to Future Xander, I might not have been as clear as I could have been. He was my pick for Twilight, not because I believe for a second that Twilight being a member of Buffy's inner circle makes any real sense at all--none of these characters make sense to me anymore in fact. But I thought he fit the clues very well, and Twilight's dialogue, at least, seemed more like Xander dialogue than Angel dialogue. Also, being a Xander from the Future would have given the writers some leeway to present more compelling reasons for his betrayal--who knows what catastrophes might have come about over the next couple of centuries because of Buffy's foolish and reckless actions?

And that's why the Council has always controlled them so closely, even why they used Cruciamentum which, on its face, seemed likely only to kill off the strongest Slayers


Actually for me the Cruciamentum spell is a classic example of how the Buffy writers room seemed to work: they wanted conflict between Giles and Buffy, a way for Buffy to come to see Giles as perhaps not trustworthy. But unfortunately, while giving themselves a great character moment and a great episode (with a wonderful performance from Sarah Michelle Gellar by the way--I may think BtVS went downhill toward the end and the character of Buffy Summers has been irretrievably lost, but I never for a second blamed Sarah for any of that) they failed to consider the logic of the device they used to get to that character moment. The Watchers have to be blithering idiots to put Slayers through that test. What's the point of it? By age 18 the average Slayer has already proven herself against scores of threats. Taking her power away will most likely just get her killed, and then you have to break in the next girl, who isn't any more statistically likely to survive the Cruciamentum either. If a Slayer isn't strong or smart enough you'll know soon enough when some vampire kills her, so why bother with the test at all? It was a plot device to get us to some Buffy/Giles conflict, but it was poorly thought out.

Still, at least Buffy Summers was Buffy Summers then.
Glad they acknowledged After the Fall. I wonder if that has anything to do with how Angel found out about this mystery thing that Giles has known about.
Since I think it ties in here, has anything been said as to the canonicity of the current ongoing Angel series? Anyone know if it'll tie into this? And sorry if this was already brought up. I just don't have the time to read through some 100+ messages right now.

Real excellent issue btw. Spuffy fans must be up in arms (all in good fun ladies and gents).
Regarding the comments upthread about Angelus v. Angel--I definitely think it's Angel. As Angel, he has certainly acted in morally reprehensible ways before. Yes, he faked that whole bit about "allowing" the death of Fred and the return of Illyria, but he really, truly did kill Drogan. Additionally, if you'll recall, he went off the deep end a bit in Angel, when Darla was haunting him. Sure, they maybe deserved it, but locking up the entire Wolfram & Hart upper management with Darla and Dru wasn't something anyone saw "Angel" doing. But it definitely wasn't Angelus. So, no I don't think he's Angelus here, but I do think he's under some mystically glowy magical whammy. I'm willing to suspend disbelief and wait and see how Joss goes about answering my questions.

Regarding the complaints about "selfish Buffy," eh...I can see how you got there, so no disrespect to you is intended. She certainly does behave selfishly in a lot of ways, but I also see her as a very lonely tragic figure and I actually have quite a lot of sympathy for her character. Sure, she was different after she was brought back. She didn't want to come back-the world seemed like an ugly place compared to where she'd been, and she was just empty. I can see how her character would have logically progressed to where she is now.

I trust Joss. I'm happy. And I'm loving this discussion. Smart Whedon fans!!!! You guys are awesome.
Re: Faith: Angel does seem to show concern after he hurts her, I didn't notice that on the first read. That doesn't explain why he did it in the first place, or why he's being a dick in general, though. Other examples from this issue:

-He basically taunts Giles/Faith/Andrew after he kidnaps them, instead of explaining what's up. A simple "Ok, I know I just kidnapped you, but there's a plan, yeah?" would have been better than "Who wants to die first?" Telling someone you're going to kill them, as they're waking up from being kidnapped by you, is just an unneccessarily dickish move.

(Especially to Giles. The last time he saw Angel acting like that it was when Angelus murdered his girlfriend. Just seems like something that Angel would never ever joke about, especially to Giles, and something that Giles wouldn't find funny in the least).

-Calling Buffy "Buff". That's something that, as far as I remember, only Angelus ever did. I just can't imagine Angel ever saying it, considering how unfunny the events it's a callback to are.

And those are just from this issue. He may have good reasons for all of it, but what's rubbing me the wrong way is mainly how he's going about it.

I'm with the folks who think that he must be possessed/hopped up on magic. If he's not, then, I really just don't get it. The character of Angel as I know him, after watching 12 seasons of TV, just wouldn't go about it that way.
(Spike raped Buffy but it's okay that she wants to have sex with him now because he went out and got a soul,

Hellmouthguy | March 04, 16:27 CET


You know, I appreciate the effort and thought you put into your posts, Hellmouthguy, but could you at least get your examples right? Spike attempted to rape Buffy. It's just as bad to me, but I still feel it's an important distinction.

Also, this is the thing I have the hardest time dealing with in Season 7. My least favorite development in the entire series is the aftermath of that attempted rape.

On topic, really enjoyed this issue. Am very curious about how they're going to explain this.

ETA: topical comment.

[ edited by guidedby on 2010-03-04 19:10 ]
You know, I appreciate the effort and thought you put into your posts, Hellmouthguy, but could you at least get your examples right? Spike attempted to rape Buffy.


Good point. I knew that--my bad.

Also, this is the thing I have the hardest time dealing with in Season 7. My least favorite development in the entire series is the aftermath of that attempted rape.


I think the "Spike battles for a soul" thing was simple expediency on the producers' parts. Marsters was a series regular and they needed to find ways to keep him without having to resort to Buffy trying to kill him and failing every week. Spike as the final Big Bad of the series (in place of the laughably inneffectual First Evil and its buffoon of a helper, Caleb) would have been something to see. I would have loved it if he went through all those battles not to have his soul restored but instead to receive one wish, and his wish was to get his chip removed. And maybe the demon granting the wish could have offered to restore his soul, and Spike could have thought it over, and said no, and refused a soul, and had his chip removed, and gone back to being a happy vampire, drinking and killing and getting into scraps to his black heart's content. Instead we got Spike The Romance Novel Hero, making really tiresome speeches about how neat Buffy is.

I really do like Spike, though it may seem at times from my comments that I don't. I just think that he was completely mishandled once he became a series regular--made into comic relief, and then a "champion", when he really would have been better off as a villain. And the rest of the characters suffered for it, none more than Buffy.
You know it would be nice if we actually chatted about the issue instead of getting sidetracked.

And having read the issue, does any else think that Angel is now insane? Cause those aren't the words of a rationale man.
@Hellmouthguy

It's my personal belief that Spike has never and will never have it in him to be a big enough or bad enough big bad. That plan would maybe a nice fanfic but would have fallen flat a couple episodes in.
I think that Dawn has got quite the pottymouth. I mean, "nutwads"?! That's a great description, though. :)
I'm not sure if Angel is insane, but I do think he has let himself become kind of delusional (feeling that getting super powers is the fulfillment of his attempts at redemption?).

And I understand that it is important to discuss the actual comic book, but these past issues always crop up.... And so I would like to just mention that Spike is not the only one who ever tried to rape Buffy, Xander (under the influence of Hyenas) tried it first, and was mainly forgiven because he claimed to have no memory of any of the stuff he did or said. Everyone here has a history, good and bad, there is plenty of guilt to go around.

I wasn't that shocked that Buffy would give in to her 'glowy' feelings for Angel, she has always been impulsive and felt that following those impulses were a good thing. She is not the type to have her entire body glow with power/desire/whatever and just ignore the feelings and follow her logical mind.
dispatch, Xander has called Buffy "Buff" a few times.

I do think Angel has gone insane. Either that or this is not him. I can't imagine the character I watched for 5 years on his own series doing or saying the things he does in this issue and that's coming from someone who thinks he's evil and can't be redeemed.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2010-03-04 20:48 ]
i reaaaaaally had hoped Angel was the big bad. Meh.
I'm not convinced Angel is crazy, because... I'm not convinced this is THAT far out of his moral reach. He was not a "good" guy by most objective measures in Season 5 of his show. And he's obviously not a good guy right now, and in many of the same ways. As I discussed, the actual plan he's carrying out is pretty much exactly the plan he carried out in part and only pretended to carry out in part in Season 5 in terms of getting in with the Black Thorn. Back then he lured Drogyn to his eventual death and simply let people think he'd stood by and let Fred get infected. In Season 8, he's lured people to their deaths, sent people to their deaths, *and* idly stood by and let them die. He has even ordered at least one execution, with the hench-scientist in "Retreat".

Honestly, if he wasn't so damn *peppy* would anything seem even that abnormal about his choices? I don't think so.

One of my current pet theories is that the guy has just made peace with the whole "gonna end all that is good" prophecy and just wants Buffy to be the superpowered bikini babe at his side when it goes down. The theory I really have trouble buying is that something else is controlling him, because it seems so late in the season to introduce such a thing. Although... I dunno, the blurbs... hmmm. It's tricky.

My biggest concern here is that Joss really does think Angel's load of crap explanation actually succeeds in absolving him. He is, per his own explanation, responsible for a lot of death.
I like the conjecture, but the judging already kind of rubs me the wrong way. Can we wait to see the full thing before we start deciding anything.

Anyway, loved the issue. LOVED funny Angel. Angel isn't always with the funny, but when he is, he IS.
135 comments, and *nobody* comments on Buffy's snark at Edward Cullen?

Come on, it's like there was some major, game-changing event in the issue or something...
I'm not being judgy, Pretty_Hate_Machine. I'm willing to wait-and-see before I get that way. :) I can, however, speculate all I want and that's what I'm doing.

KoC, I agree with everything you said in the 1st paragraph-and it's that peppiness that bugs me. I know it's been confirmed that this is Angel, it's just... I dunno. The way Angel's acting is just off somehow. It's kinda like ... The First's "impression" of Angel or something. *shrugs* It's just not the character I know.
I knew it was Angel and I still let out some weird scream-squeak!

I have this horrible (but probably quite accurate) feeling that things are going to end up horribly wrong. But at least this will be interesting. I'm incredibly confused about Angel's motives, but I did expect to be. At least it seems like Angel hasn't gone all out evil while still soulful but I'm intrigued as to his use of 'Buff' instead of 'Buffy' - I didn't think it could be Angelus: there's no way Angelus would have worn that and it's not like him too go all supervillainy. At the moment, it seems like Angel did his pretending-to-be-evil-in-order-to-do-good thing but his motives are far from clear. There is certainly an air of insanity about him in addition to the glowy. Even in the series when Angel went all for-the-greater-good he was still dark, broody guy. Here he seems kind of ok! I agree, he's weirdly peppy - 'Things got very funky.' 'Funky' is definitely not Angel-speak (Or maybe he's just high on superpowers or upon seeing Buffy again). As much as I love a B/A kiss, there can be no denying the oddity of Angel: how is over 200 slayers keeping the body count as low as possible? And what's with his destiny, 'there's a reason...' speech? It's just not the Angel I know and love, or any aspect of him in fact. There are the slight undertones of his awkward-dorkiness but that's about it really and it's not in the endearing way either.

I'm intrigued as to how the Shanshu prophecy is affected by all this and rather worried about the slayer-vampire mythology: I do hope that Buffy and Angel's love doesn't turnout to be the result of some ancient slayer-vampire connection whammy. I think it would be an insult to their relationship and to the masses of shippers. I also think it just wouldn't make sense in relation to what we've seen in both T.V series'.

And I just realised it's daytime and Angel isn't going poof! Which means he could be human, which means they could actually be having sex - weird floating in air sex. Which also means things will go terribly wrong and there will be pain leading to tears and the using up of my entire tissue supply.

I loved Buffy's Twilight mention though - it's what I've been telling every deluded Twilight fan (sadly, to no avail).

I can say that I cannot wait for the next issue but I'm going to wait until the end of the Twilight arc to come to a verdict on Season 8. I'm intrigued, excited and concerned about what all of this means for the Buffyverse mythology in general and Buffy and Angel. (Please don't ruin Angel's character!) All I'm saying is what everyone else is really (and probably what Joss and co. are expecting) - splainy, please?

[ edited by Shep on 2010-03-04 23:50 ]
Oh, I agree with your right to speculate, menomegirl. I think there's just some people who have already written of entire characters and storlyines before they are finished. I will assert my right to disagree with such premature conclusions.
135 comments, and *nobody* comments on Buffy's snark at Edward Cullen?


Considering the relative popularity of the franchises, I don't think BtVS really gets to throw stones; it comes off as "Stay off my lawn you kids!" (And no, I have not read any of the Twilight stuff or seen the movies.) I've heard some bad things about Twilight--Modern Super-Writer Stephen King hurled a lightning bolt of critical disapproval at Stephanie Meyer in the press recently when he said that she was a terrible writer--but you can't argue with Twilight's reach. Also, as to all the "but Twilight has shiny vampires!" carping I've heard in various places--vampire lore is almost infinitely flexible. Joss himself kept certain things, discarded others, and added in his own bits. The "vampires don't have souls but they can be good guys if they happen to have their souls given back" idea that the series has been operating under since season two is a Joss invention that strikes me as just as much a departure as shiny vampires who walk around in the daylight and are apparently too gentlemanly to drink blood.

I like the conjecture, but the judging already kind of rubs me the wrong way. Can we wait to see the full thing before we start deciding anything.


It's a weakness of the comic book format that we get stories rolled out in bits and pieces. Pacing is difficult, especially with a property that started its life as a one-hour television drama. On the other hand though, the current issue is what's in front of us and people paid money for it and so that's what they have to judge. And the break-point it ends at wasn't chosen at random. If it wasn't meant to be able to stand on its own merits to some degree it should have been issued as a complete graphic novel.
Hellmouthguy, I don't agree with that. Just because there are long breaks between parts of a story, doesn't mean you have to judge the parts as a whole. I think it's okay to say that you don't like the way things are progressing, it's however another thing to say that it is doomed before seeing the end of it.

I agree that parts of it can stand on its own merit, but that doesn't change anything about the story overall. And many of the greatest graphic novels were series that were published over months, if not years. That does not mean a single issue of those wasn't able to stand on it's own, but it does mean a single issue doesn't tell a whole story and shouldn't be judged as one.
dispatch, Xander has called Buffy "Buff" a few times.


I know, and Willow has too, and possibly other characters. But I meant Angel. That was something that Angelus specifically did.
Hellmouthguy said:

So, with regards to "Buffy hate"? I don't even acknowledge that this character we've been saddled with since season six is Buffy Summers. If it was revealed next issue that Buffy really did "come back wrong" from the season six resurrection spell I wouldn't be surprised in the least--in fact I would jump for joy at the canon explanation for her bewilderingly selfish behavior since then.


You know, I'd kind of like something like this to be said. It was even implied/foreshadowed in the season six/seven credits. Every season prior, the credits ended with a shot of Buffy. Seasons six and seven ended with a shot of the Buffybot and the First, respectively.

I've always held to the theory that the Buffy that was brought back wasn't exactly the same as the Buffy that died. Her molecular composition changed just enough to allow Spike's chip to consider her non-human, but she's still human?
On the whole "Buff" thing--could it be that maybe Brad Meltzer just sort of goofed? I suppose we could expect Joss to not make that specific dialogue error but I think it's within the realm of possibility that Meltzer did.

Of course, if Angel starts calling Faith "Faithy", then maybe something's up.
I'm leaning toward thinking "Buff" is intentional, significant in a way yet to be revealed. It got my attention when I first read the issue, but I didn't know what to make of it. I still don't, but it does raise suspicions.
Just saying...I am glad Buffy acknowledged that Angel is WAY better that the other Twilight...and I'm kinda shocked that Angel got the reference...how very pop cultural of him...
I suppose we could expect Joss to not make that specific dialogue error...

Maybe. But then again, Joss did apparently forget that Warren died in season 6 so....

I'm just saying. :)
"I'm leaning toward thinking "Buff" is intentional, significant in a way yet to be revealed. It got my attention when I first read the issue, but I didn't know what to make of it. I still don't, but it does raise suspicions."

The way I read it that as he started to say "Buffy", but she interrupts him. I didn't see anything sinister in that exchange....
The way I read it that as he started to say "Buffy", but she interrupts him.

That's the way the transcript I read had it. Since I haven't read the issue itself, I thought perhaps he'd called her "Buff" in another panel.
She's not interrupting him. The use of the "Buff" appears in mid-speech bubble. There's even a two panel speechless pause before Buffy answers that "you don't know me like you used to know me".

Worth mentioning? While she's already glowing at this point, this is actually the last thing she says in the issue. After this it's just him speechifying and then she kisses him. Doesn't do much to hurt the argument that free will left the building somewhere in between, that her last speech or thought text in the issue was still disagreeing with him.
There was another moment when he did start to say "Buffy", but it was shortened to "Buff-" because he was interrupted in the middle of speaking.

Hence confusion.

But yes, he did call her "Buff" just once in the issue.
I posted this at StayAlive, but Angel is essentially playing Professor Snape now. He's doing awful things with the knowledge that if he doesn't, worse things will happen.

He's keeping it balanced. Under Twilight, all of the forces that want to wipe out the Slayers are united -- under Angel's leadership, where he has control. There have to be casualties or the groups would splinter. All the Slayers would be attacked, most (if not all) would die.

Angel attacks a few and makes the evil (tm) groups feel they are making progress, but at the same time he's stopping an all-out massacre and giving Buffy time to power up and learn how to defend herself.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-03-04 23:55 ]
The Dark Shape...good point...I was kinda confused about how he was helping... like "yeah Buff it's only 206 girls...could've been worse...like it could've been all of ye!!!"
He's doing awful things with the knowledge that if he doesn't, worse things will happen.

Yeah, see that's where it doesn't work for me. You can't do good by doing evil. That's a thing Angel should have learned in spades during his tenure as CEO of Wolfram & Hart. Which is the main reason why this whole thing is very bewildering to me.

What was it Faith said in S5? The definition of insanity is performing the same task over and over and expecting different results?

Hmmm.
If by doing evil you save hundreds, if not thousands of people, how is that not by some virtue good?
Because it's just not. Two wrongs don't make a right.
So Angel should have just let all of the Slayers be attacked on all sides and wiped out with no hope of defending themselves?
So Angel should have just let all of the Slayers be attacked on all sides and wiped out with no hope of defending themselves?


He could've chosen to help them, seeing as how he's supposed to be their friend and ally. And we don't know that they would've all been wiped out. If Angel had brought whatever it was he knew about the opposing forces to Buffy's attention, and then had joined her himself (and maybe even brought Spike, Illyria and Connor along), who knows what would've happened? Angel and Buffy have already fought off about a dozen apocalypses between them, what makes this one so much different? (And maybe it would've been helpful if Buffy didn't stupidly rob Fort Knox.)
And what if Angel was just playing his "role" in the Apocalypse, like the prophecy said.

In After The Fall, we learnt, after a vision, that his role could be in the "wrong" side...
A "bad" Angel could play this role to reach the Prophecy...

( I so want to have a connection with Angel comics specially ATF !!! ) ;)
So. I thought it was interesting to go back two years and see how relatively accurate I was (that this would be a morally ambiguous big bad) and wasn't (by downplaying the possibility it was Angel/us). In fact, I may have been the first to propose some of the more interesting but ultimately wrong guesses (e.g., Hank Summers), but again, missed the obvious and eventual answer.

So, if they are indeed doing the deed... what're the odds Buffy is going to be pregnant? Angel already has more kids (1) than any other recurring character (except for Joyce... sorta) :-)

Angel has gloves on the entire time we see him out in the sunlight. He could have another Gem of Amarra on underneath, but something tells me what's going on isn't that.

Agreed that it doesn't look like Angel knew that Faith currently has no slayer powers. Your average young woman takes damage a lot more easily than a slayer, such that I don't think it's Angel underestimating his strength, so much as overestimatiing her toughness.
Who made him (Angel)God to make such decisions?

[ edited by baxter on 2010-03-05 01:16 ]
You guys must really hate Snape, too.
Snape, Snape, Severus Snape...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
I haven't seen anyone here say they hate Angel. We're discussing what happened in the story. Why do you assume that?
Ho-lee crap. AMAZING issue. So glad I avoided the spoilers.
I don't see Angel hate either. What I see is a disagreement on ethics. There is the contention that if he does evil to prevent greater evil, he's still doing evil and should be judged as such. This is set against, "yes he's doing evil, but his choice is to see greater evil done if he is not in control."

Those are just individual moral distinctions and are far from universal. If we polled Whedonesque, you'd see a pretty significant split I'd wager.

Although the Snape analogy would be appropriate if that's what Joss is doing with Angel.

Re: the train of thought that goes Angel could do MORE good by directly helping Buffy. IF the story is being spun this way, then I'm inclined to say that no he couldn't. That makes him a soldier in Buffy's army. Powerful, yes. As effective, not even close.

There is no soldier that can be as effective as a general. A general can intentionally destroy his forces through "poor planning." A general can let opposing forces regroup by "accident". A general can be oblivious to obvious spies. And a general can send his best troops to the wrong places at the wrong time.

For the record, I don't think Angel is going to turn out to be good in this. BUT, the logic would be sound if that was the direction he was going in. He's had to make hard, pragmatic command decisions before. If that's the direction they go in, then to me he is not evil but he IS compromised. No person forced to do that kind of work is the better for it.

[ edited by azzers on 2010-03-05 04:33 ]
Who's judging what's good and evil here? Killing a person is evil, right? Then what about killing an evil person? Still evil or is it now good? What about killing vampires?

Angel's never been a pacifist, so he seems to believe in doing some evil to do some good (as I think do most people really - you'd lie to make someone feel better if necessary). This is really a question of scale. He's gone pretty far and we don't know why yet, but I've never regarded Twilight's actions as necessarily evil and that's why I've found him interesting. I really enjoy characters like Snape and (Watchmen spoiler ->), so personally I hope that's the area we're in.

On the issue itself, I really enjoyed it up until and including the reveal, but I agree with those saying that it went a bit wrong after that. I'd managed to stay unspoiled, which was great and I paused for a good ten minutes before turning that page. I just wanted to enjoy thinking about who Twilight was for the last time. Given the dialogue just before the reveal, I was pretty sure it would be Angel, but I never thought it was him before then.

I'm having some trouble reconciling Twilight's previous actions with him being Angel, but a bigger problem is that it just doesn't seem at all like Angel even after he's unmasked (dialogue-wise, but the art's not great either). We'll see what the real explanation is in the next two issues, but reading Angel's cryptic ramblings in the issue was pretty anti-climatic. I wish an issue had ended with the un-masking. Instantly revealing that he's not really a bad guy (at least not an immediate threat anyway) takes away quite a bit of the impact of the reveal. And a kiss, or more, under ambiguous circumstances doesn't do anything for me either.

There's a lot riding on the following issues. This really needs to make sense and not have any big holes/mistakes like we've seen previously. Fingers are crossed.

[ edited by NotaViking on 2010-03-05 06:01 ]
If anybody finds themselves not understanding just what Angel's doing wrong, I invite you to follow me on a thought exercise.

Think back to Season 3, the episode "Doppelgangland". In this episode, Willow goes undercover as the badass vampire version of herself to save the lives of the people in the Bronze. The crux of this plan was that, since she was in charge and they would do what she said, she could make sure nobody got hurt until there was a chance for Buffy and the others to get in.

Now, let's imagine it went differently. Let's imagine that, while in the Bronze, Willow decided that the plan wouldn't work if the vampires didn't believe she was villainous enough. So, when one of the henchvamps asks "can I eat this one?", she says "okay, but not those four over there, I might want those for myself". The henchvamp kills the person it requested. When Buffy and the others come in, Willow explains that "she stopped the worst of it" and "it could have been so much worse". Now... imagine that, while making those decisions, Season 3 was actually Dark Willow and could have stopped anyone that challenged her with barely a thought.

Once you've imagined that, you've imagined exactly what Angel's been doing this whole season and just how flimy his excuses really are. Angel became leader of these people, and whether he was pretending or not, he becomes responsible for the things he willingly allowed to be done in his name. The people that died in Evil Plan A that he decided didn't qualify as "the worst of it" and therefore didn't do anything to stop it. Despite all the powers he had.
I like that analogy KoC.

I guess it will all make sense soon.
Lets take your analogy and tweak a little more. Lets say just one of those vamps ISN'T a lackey there for plot purposes. Lets assume that this is a rational, evil, and not particularly spineless vampire. And this rational, evil, and independent vampire realizes that "Evil Willow" is just wasting time. She hasn't allowed a death, her explanations are suspect at best, and she looks unsure. How long before Willow is killed for being an imposter? If this vampire had been present in that episode, Buffy would not have arrived in time. Willow's vampires were ignorant, not particularly bright, and too few to behave like a mob.

Now lets assume that this charade doesn't get to last 10 minutes. No, instead Willow has to keep her vampires convinced that she's evil for several months. Can she still minimize the damage? Yes. Can she stay in this saintly box that we're assigning her AND convince these vampires to follow her? Only with an extremely active imagination on our part.

Again, let me be clear. I don't think Joss is actually going to have Angel turn out to be absolved in this fashion. It's a decent bait and switch, but it doesn't feel like Joss.

That said, IF we take Angel's words at face value, then one can make a logical case for him being correct. There IS value in his placement in this fight. There IS a need for him to allow death or he would have been killed and his value would be forfeit. There IS need to obfuscate his intentions from demons who (if he's running an army) we can assume are not all as dumb as those vamps from Doplegangland.

It's one thing to say, "you have control of an army, you can stop them." But it's another to actually do it. In the end, you can't. In a war, people want a fight. If you won't command them to, they'll find someone who will.

[ edited by azzers on 2010-03-05 07:00 ]
I have some art and a song for your viewing pleasure.

Buffy and Angel flying in the air, sing:

We are as gods! Insane, glowing gods!
We are F#@%ing gods! Sonic BOOM gods!


Don't let the Benevolent Ones frighten you. They'll only let you die if it furthers their own ends...

All bow down to the Great and All Powerful Twangel and His Goddess Queen, Buffy! They will rule this planet and sacrifice human pawns for our own good! We praise you, oh mighty ones!
Azzers, it's just rationalization, because where charisma and credibility start to wane in Angel's charade, the fact that he is powerful enough to wipe out most-if-not-all of the forces he's taken control of by himself if necessary takes over.
From what we've got so far, Angel looked at the situation and decided that this course of action was the best to minimise casualties. It's certainly an extraordinary thing to do and it will require a lot of explanation, but I don't think we can just dismiss his judgement as lightly as you're doing, KoC. He presumably has a lot more information than we do. The next issues will probably change our understanding of what's happened significantly.

[ edited by NotaViking on 2010-03-05 15:15 ]
There IS value in his placement in this fight. There IS a need for him to allow death or he would have been killed


Killed by whom, exactly? Angel was a tough out even before he got super-powered-up as Twilight, and he also has Connor, Illyria and Spike to help him if he asks. Looks to me like there's basicaly no one on earth other than Buffy right now who could stand against Angel in a fight. You really think Warren or Amy or some random demons could have taken him down?
To be fair, Angel did admit that it wasn't his only MO. The other point on his agenda was to get Buffy to where she is right now.
Look, I'm not rationalizing his stand, or character, or anything right now. I'm just saying that people who are focusing on agenda one seem to forget that he pretty much laid out agenda two for Buffy too. If something cannot be explained by agenda one, try agenda two. And possibly, the rest of the checkmarks down the list (if they exist).
Right or wrong, we'll see. Probably more of an in-between... despite its absolutist dichotomy, the show has found a ton of ways to inject relativism into its philosophy. Angel, Spike, Anya, Clem, even Harmony, are all proof of that.
The more the various things like the Meltzer interview of the Allie Q&A go on, the more I'm really depressingly starting to realize that Angel's rationalizations really were designed and intended to "clear" him with the audience. I'm very worried that they just honestly didn't think through the moral implications of what he *has* taken responsibility for.
After reading the Meltzer interview, and speaking as a comic fan who gets pretty much every single one of the superhero in-jokes this series has been peppered with so far, I think it has been an error to make Buffy season 8 into "Buffy: The Comic Book!". Using the comic book medium to its best effect by giving us great locations and cool-looking demons and expansive battle scenes is all well and good, but hitting us over the head over and over again with the fact that this is a comic book just takes me out of the story. We didn't get this many superhero references in the entire TV series and I'm thinking, enough already. (Though I will say I enjoyed Angel/Twilight's "Andrew, did you just hit me with a frisbee?" line when Andrew hits him in the head with--apparently--Captain America's shield. It's the first line of dialogue Twilight has said that strikes me as actually something Angel would say.)

And speaking of inappropriate comic booky stuff, did we really need Mecha-Dawn or Flying Buffy or Angel in a goofy outfit with a goofy supervillain code-name? I would have rather they limited themselves to the kinds of stories they would have chosen to do on the TV show, because Buffy is a TV show in almost everyone's minds. The comic may call itself season 8 but it seems less a true season of the show and more an adaptation along the lines of what the animated series might have been. In fact, Buffy riding a dragon in the animated series (remember how everyone was up in arms about that?) seems a lot less egregious to me than the bulk of what the comic has given us.
I think what really troubles me is Brian Lynch (with Joss) gave us a great tale with After the Fall that set up why Angel probably WOULDN'T go down the purely pragmatic path again. And now this....

Of course, there's scope for a VERY interesting story of how he got to where he's at....and if we don't get it in Season 8, then IDW are seriously missing a trick if they don't try and tell it.
One thing ya gotta admit, no matter what your opinion on the plot twist and the events immediately following, is that Joss's vision and Buffy's story still matter to us.

I'm still worried that this is the moment of getting airborne over the Selachimorpha.
I *KNEW* Dracula's sword was important. Glad I'm right.

Other than that, I would like to comment that the reason why Future Willow wanted Buffy to kill her, and the explanation of the prophecy from issue 10, point to there still being someone who Buffy is close to that needs to die. And Twilight is still the most likely-seeming prospect, no matter whether or not he turns out to Angel.
NOOOOO DON'T KILL ANGEL!!! that is just so mean...she always kills Angel....or at least tries...or threatens...or throws giant trees at him...


[ edited by azzers on 2010-03-06 03:30 ]
I remained unspoiled, and am so glad I did! I assumed it wouldn't be Angel (or Spike) merely because of licensing issues. So I was deeply shocked! I'm with the "wait and see" crowd on the events after the reveal. I have always loved Buffy/Angel, even in season 7 with the cookie dough conversation. But absolving Angel of all he's done as Twilight is going to be difficult for me to swallow.
I have no idea how to reconcile Angel in After the Fall with Twilight Angel. There is a lot of back story to fit in not a lot of time there... maybe the events of After the Fall are the final major event in Angel's existence that caused the Twilight transformation. How long was the downtime supposed to be between AtF and Season 8? Something like 8 months to a year, correct?
I think it's more like a year and a half but I was never really clear on that.
Finally got my issue and the time to read it. Definitely one of the best so far -- what I should do is go back and re-read the original fight scene between Twilight and Buffy.

What I do not like at all is this hint that the mythology is about to be expanded, again, with some major point that oh we just so happened to miss for about eight years. I hate it when they do that, it smacks of deus ex machina, and is one of the reasons why I think Season 7 is such a disaster (suddenly, there is an axe; suddenly, there are these women watcher-watchers ...). If this hasn't been at least hinted at, I'm going to be very upset. This is not a TV show, they had months and months to set this up. At this point, the major parts of the Slayer mythology should be fixed.

My hope is that it will tie into the future episodes, because there are lots of loose ends there that are beginning to, uh, fray. As for Angel's motivations, I'm going to suspend my judgement until I know more. He has a lot to explain.
scotws, you're probably aware of this, but the Slayer axe first made its debut in Fray. It wasn't revealed until the final episode of Buffy that it had magical powers that could be unlocked to do Willow's spell, but the axe itself was in creative existence prior to Buffy. :)
I don't know what to make of this. I really don't. I can accept Angel being in the comic. I can accept some big mystical connection between him and Buffy. But what I can't accept is this apparent dropping of the people in Angel's life that have been so important to him in the last few year - mainly Connor. The person that means most to him in the world.

I will let Joss tell his story before I make full judgements- but there really needs to be a good explanation for how the Twilight thing happened. From the Q&A questions it seems that AtS characters will not be featuring...so once again Angel goes back to Buffys world and his whole life in LA seems to be forgotton...grumble grumble...


Oh and the glow thing....really?
First, kudos to me for remaining completely unspoiled all this time. I had no clue even with my local Comic Book Guy taunting me every time I came in for the last 2 months.

That said, I was completely shocked, I enjoyed it and I'm intrigued, but my big question that I can't seem to find in the pages of discussion is: Was Glowy Superpowered Angel born/explained in the last so many episodes of the Angel comics? I ask because I stopped reading Angel about 5 months ago, I just wasn't enjoying it (and was annoyed by there being all those short series that didn't seem related to the overall 'Season 6' storyline).

Trying to figure out if we have two completely separate story lines with Angel now or what. Thx!
archon: You might have been aware of the axe if you lived in the U.S. and read comics. For those of us who at the time were stuck in parts foreign where comic shops didn't carry Fray, it was a real deus ex machina moment. I still remember my disgust, especially because there was no reason for the bad guys to dig it out anyway (which still is a problem). It wouldn't have hurt to have Giles talk a little bit about "some axe thing" he is researching at the beginning of Season 7.

Oh well, water under the bridge.
So.... finally able to read my copy of 33 (had it since Thursday, but work and midterms stood in my way). And [as many have stated, (though I haven't read all the comments, as there are almost 200)] it was AWESOME!!!!!! Absolutely loved it. But I think my favorite line (besides the Twilight jibe) was the little end teaser: "Next issue: Them f#@%ing." I laughed for maybe three minutes straight. My mom merely stared at me before shaking her head...
Throw me in with the camp who won't decide until next issue

I have been so furious at this series. I loved all seven series of the show but just before after the end of the last arc I decided that I would no longer consider these stories as part of the real story. Not only have they been dull but they've done serious damage to a number of characters.

And then this arc started up and from the first issue the series has regained so much energy and humour. And the characters have started to speak like themselves again. Almost immediately Meltzer turned around my opinion on the series.

And then ... then Angel reveal. It was a stunning reveal but every page afterwards left me unsatisfied. It might turn into a brilliant decision and I'm reserving judgment. But if no great explanation is given then this will be a an even bigger fuck-up than the Boyd debacle which for me turned Dollhouse from a great show into one that I won't recommend to my friends. I have my fingers crossed.
I acknowledge myself completely thrown by the Angel reveal, particularly since I was sure I had figured out Twilight's identity from the previous issue. Did anyone else think Jonathon? It just seemed so obvious when Andrew recognized the villain headquarters - who else would have been so nerdish to want to build the X-men/Teen Titans crossover headquarters? Who else would say something like "Who wants to hear a really cool master plan?" Jonathon was someone who had a good reason for thinking getting rid of all magic would be a good idea - after all it destroyed his life. Using and then kicking out Warren would have been something he relished. Even not remembering Andrew's name made a kind of sense - repressing the memory of the "friend" who murdered him. Of course Jonathon is dead, but that just raised the issue of how he came back.

Oh well - much as I miss Jonathon as a character, I'm glad he hasn't gone evil again.
Did anyone else think Jonathon?


Earlier on in the season I did think it could be Jonathan. Even though Twilight is about 8 inches taller than Jonathan, Jonathan knows how to work illusions and that sorta thing. And if there's anyone who has reason to be bitter against everyone, it's Jonathan (if he was somehow alive).
Having lurked very selectively for the last several months and remained unspoiled through choice (and for the first time ever, since normally I don't mind spoilers but this was working up to such an epic reveal, and with this much backstory behind it)...

Holy........googly moogly.

Have to say, my jaw dropped. I may even have gasped, I don't remember. That's only happened once before in S8 (when we saw that Ethan had been executed). I had thought it was Harth, or at a pinch, future Xander.

This is one hell of an arc. I cannot wait for the next issue to get the sides and back on what we've seen.

(And the title of #34? Genius.)
did anyone notice angel saying to giles "every watcher wonders if his slayer is the girl" does that mean the one to end it all, the one who gets these odd powers? also angel says "unholy power" sp you know it's not good. my guess is Angel got the Shanshu and buffy got some similar reward for her "pure act"but either way...things are about to get crazy!
You know what this all reminds me of? Killing Fred to make way for Illyria. That is, destroying a well-established character with all their familiar plot connections to make way for an even awesomer being who can do things a 1000 times better and bring even more pathos. This is what Buffy & Angel's story is turning into for me, and whatever the "true history of the universe" is (clearly the true nature of the Whedonverse in Joss's brain for God-only-knows-how-long)it is positioned to be as gigantic, mythic and game-changing as Illyria herself. Or it was all just a dream and Buffy really is locked up in a mental institution. Either way, I can't wait for the next issue! :)

P.S. Buffy and Angel Forever (sorry Spike).
Well, I've finally read this issue (and caught up with this thread), and here's my take on this:

1. I loved everything up to - and just after - the reveal. Being spoiled, this didn't have the impact it should've, but it was still great to see Buffy's face as soon as she figures stuff out. The shock, horror and betrayal evident there is amazing and kudos to Jeanty, for making that frame speak like that.

2. Willow making the "f%^%6ing" comment: did not love. There's no real reason to assume that that's what's going on, and making a joke out of it seems out of character. Heck, we (as the readers) are watching the scene unfold, and other than Willow's words I see no reason to believe there's banging going on/being started.

3. The weirdness of glowy Buffy and Angel. I can't believe that most of the reactions here - apart from a few exceptions - seem to be taking this at face value first. Both Buffy and Angel are acting completely out of character, Giles seems to be thinking there's no winning now that this is happening, Buffy changes moods (from wanting to kill Angel to kissing him and-possibly-more) in the blink of an eye and both of them are glowing for frak's sake ;). I do not believe for one moment that this is Joss/Meltzer's way to have a big, lovely, romantic, happy ending for these characters, or that we're even supposed to take that as a possibility. That option would be so inconsistent with the way everyone involved with this usually tells stories, that I can't even contemplate it being that simple (and cheesy, and morally wrong).

4. Angel being Angel and acting like Twilight to 'minimize the damage'. This is actually something I was fairly certain they'd bring up, as it's the only way to have Angel really be himself and still doing this. It is totally consistent with Angel's character to behave in this way, especially if he knows more about what's going on than the others. It is also to early to judge on the morality of it all. Yes: he might have acted in an evil fashion, but I for one, refuse to believe the world is that black and white (you're either evil or good, and there's nothing in between seems a silly philosophy, as Angel - and others, and people in general - has/have quite regularly been 'in between') and am not ready to pass judgment until we hear the whole story.

All in all, I liked the issue, but there's a lot going on here, and I'm not sure if I'll like this 'new mythology' or the direction the Buffy/Angel story is going, until we see more of it. For now, it could pretty much still go anywhere, from amazingly cool to incredibly sucky. We'll just have to wait and see :).

[ edited by GVH on 2010-03-10 22:08 ]
GVH, maybe Willow, with her magic, could sort of see/sense that Buffy/Angel were talking, then fucking. I was kinda confused as to where Twilight's hideout was supposed to be located. Conveniently on one of the Tibetan mountains ? Really ? Or did Buffy fly really far ? But it seemed like Willow, Xander, and Dawn were spectating from a distance at which they'd at least be able to see the small shapes of people in the air, in the distance.

One of the most interesting things this issue (and previous discussions after the Twilight reveal, and Dollhouse) brought about is the display of many fans' personal beliefs about what's right/wrong and everything in between. Personal morality is fascinating, especially from the perspective of someone who has no god/religion to tell them what's right and wrong, although I was in line with everything a predominantly Judeo-Christian society raised me to believe until the mid-teens and questioning it all really started. I mean there's things that're easy to come to conclusions about--causing pain and suffering/death to others is reprehensible, as is in any way infringing on others' inherent rights/chances as independant, sentient beings to live happy, comfortable lives--although some could probably justifiably argue all that away from a Darwinian perspective, I dunno if I'd wanna live in a world only ruled by that line of thinking-- basically anything you wouldn't want done to yourself, the Golden Rule, or one of its better-worded variations. Complications arise when you've put yourself in a position of power where you're responsible for the lives of others (or been nominated for such). Ideally, you will always make decisions that're fair to everyone, that don't hurt anyone, but that usually isn't the case for most presidents, prime ministers, monarchs, military top dogs, school board administrators, etc (anyone in control of anything constituting a group or institution of people).

Maybe Angel is a shanshu'd Angel (as others have suggested), but lets add that he's from the future. Or even just from after IDW's stories. Here's a thought--what if the human mind would go insane if it lived as long as Angel's lived. What if the nature of a vampire is the only thing that keeps them from going mental ? If Angel shanshu'd and became human, maybe those 200+ years catch up with him all at once (or fairly rapidly, or over many decades or centuries, if we're dealing with a Future-Angel who somehow remained immortal without his vampiric lifespan) and his suddenly-human-again mind can't deal with that many memories and experiences--and just plain years of existing--because we're not meant to last that long ? It would be a sort of sci-fi, but also very plain, Joyce-like way to die/waste away.

I'm not sure I want insanity to be the out that Angel is given (if he's given one at all), it might be way too easy (and the Buffyverse has already had a fair share of insane, or at least mentally compromised, characters), but it's a strong possibility.

Maybe Angel's face/mask is gonna melt off in a few issues and it'll be Xander or someone else after all. Yikes, the implications there, after just tricking Buffy into sleeping with him, plus all the murdering and deceit. Hmmm, I hope this ain't the case, I'd rather sacrifice Angel at the altar of character-destruction-for-plot-purposes than Xander (and I don't use "character-destruction" to mean a bad thing--Fred was a justifiable kill because the character had run her course and Illyria was fresh blood for the franchise, for example).

Gah, I have a load more I wanna post about, but gotta go out for a bit to help my great aunt shop for a photo printer and some other tech stuff.

It felt like so long a wait to get to read this issue after it came out and getting to join the discussion !
It all seems entirely in character to me. Especially the part where they drive everyone following along at home completely crazy with their special brand of epic kung fu soap opera apocalyptics.
GVH, maybe Willow, with her magic, could sort of see/sense that Buffy/Angel were talking, then fucking. I was kinda confused as to where Twilight's hideout was supposed to be located. Conveniently on one of the Tibetan mountains ? Really ? Or did Buffy fly really far ? But it seemed like Willow, Xander, and Dawn were spectating from a distance at which they'd at least be able to see the small shapes of people in the air, in the distance.


Well, it is conceivable that Buffy flew pretty far, given the awesome powers she has, but that would make Willow, Xander and Dawn observing be kind of... strange :). How I read that scene is that they were mostly just hearing the effects of the fight and all the rest, not seeing it unfold. I'll give you that there might be something going on there with Willow's powers, though. Still reads like a strange little scene :).

As for your points about morality, Kris, I agree. There's never an 'ideal' for anyone with power, it's always a balancing act. For instance: Buffy gave all these potential slayers powers, essentially giving them (possibly unwanted) new responsibility and leading them into a road filled with risk and danger. She leads many of these now-Slayers into Battle every so often, making them take risks, and getting some of them killed. Just to be clear: I don't think this is wrong, persé (although I've always had my doubts about the awakening of the potentials being a good thing).

As for the position of Angel, as we now perceive it to be: he has actively killed humans (or at the very least: condoned their killing/torture), for a 'greater good', which is quite a shade darker than what Buffy's doing. Let's assume for a moment that the rest of the Twilight arc will explain his reasons and make it credible that he was in a position to judge the situation and really know that he was making a bad situation a bit better. (Although one could argue that just believing that, would make all the moral difference already, even if that person was misjudging the situation, but let's not get into that for now :)).

Given that, I'm not at all sure that we live in a black and white world where we can say: "well, that's clearly evil". I don't think there's any moral absolutes to be had, ever. There's no "the ends justify the means", but there's also no "the ends never justify the means", as far as I'm concerned. Life and morality is complex and messy, and there's never an easy way out. This was always an aspect of the storytelling I really liked over on AtS.

On the other hand, if it turns out that a case can be made that there was no real reason for Angel to behave as he did - no credible reason, for instance, why he didn't just seek Buffy out and joined forces, bringing along his powerful LA friends, then we can start to wonder why he would choose a route that forced him to do evil for a greater good and we'd have good grounds to judge his actions on a moral basis (and I'm sure there's enough other examples to be had, that'd make our judgments go either way). We'll just have to wait and see, I guess :).

It all seems entirely in character to me. Especially the part where they drive everyone following along at home completely crazy with their special brand of epic kung fu soap opera apocalyptics.


Heh, Sunfire :). But, really, to me glowy Buffy and Angel kissing and having sex (at best) minutes after Buffy was trying to kill the guy with a giant stake, didn't make much sense. The entire scene seemed 'off' somehow.

Having said that: I can actually see why they'd kiss and maybe even have sex, in the heat of the moment. I mean, Buffy's reaction to (then still evil) Spike telling her she wasn't completely human anymore, was very similar ;). So it's not the act, perse (although the timing and the sudden switch between anger and - one assumes - lust, is still very strange), but the way it played, made (and makes) me very suspicious of whether or not they are themselves in that scene.

Plus, did I mention the glowiness? ;)
Here's a thought--what if the human mind would go insane if it lived as long as Angel's lived. What if the nature of a vampire is the only thing that keeps them from going mental ? If Angel shanshu'd and became human, maybe those 200+ years catch up with him all at once

I don't think that's possible because Angel became human in After the Fall but he didn't go insane
GVH maybe this is a new thing: Angry Make Up Sex. But seriously, Buffy would so do this. When it comes to Angel she's self-serving to the core. When she killed him to save the world she proved to herself she could put the Ultimate Good over her own needs, but when she had him back in her life I think she rationalized that, having proved that, she now has the right to use him mentally as the "One True Happy Place" in life when things get rough. This would explain the sudden-rage-then-sudden-joy. She can't be rid of the only thing that makes her truly, purely happy (other than being back in Heaven and not bearing the burden of being The Slayer anymore)!
Well the first thing she did when she saw Twilight was Angel, was try to kill him. Do her Slayers mean more to her now?
GVH maybe this is a new thing: Angry Make Up Sex. But seriously, Buffy would so do this.


Sure. I could see it in a different setting. Buffy discovers Angel has done an evil thing, she goes round to his place and gets angry at him. They get in a fight, which lasts a while, and when there's no place to go in their argument, anger turns to lust and they have sex. Or variations thereof.

Superpowered glowy fight in the sky with the evil guy who's been making your life hell for a year, turning into glowy sky sex... more of a stretch. But still, just that fact: not a problem. It's the way the scene is played out. Let me specify:

First there's fighting and trying to kill. On page 20, Buffy's still in angry "why did you put us through fucking hell for the past year"-mode. Then, at the end of the same page, Angel starts talking about "You feel me, Buffy, you feel us." And as it turns out, she does. "I'd never tell him he's right. But as he says the words... I know he's right."

This is not some long-lost crush; the implication here is that there's something more going on. And if the sudden unexplained pull she feels isn't enough, Buffy starts glowing. "It's singing. It's joy, Buffy. You and I don't have a lot of experience with joy. But I feel it, being this close to you, I feel a connection even I wasn't prepared for." Angel even says: "there's a reason we're both standing here, flushed with this unholy power." And then Angel lays on the feeling, gets Buffy to care and they kiss (and possibly, if we're to believe Willow, have sex).

Now, this doesn't strike me as regular angry make-up sex. Heck, Buffy isn't even angry anymore. It's not that her anger finds a new escape valve in a sexual way, it's that one minute she's angry, then she feels this strange pull towards Angel, starts to glow, loses her anger towards him and then proceeds to kiss him and have sex. It seems to me that this feeling/pull towards Angel, with all its unholy glowiness, isn't just residual feelings she's been carrying around with her for all these years. It seems to me that there's more going on and that they're both(?) being manipulated by some force (very probably related to the knowledge Giles has, but hasn't shared. Giles: "regardless of what Buffy does, there is no winning").

And sure: there's quite obviously base feelings there already to work with, Angel is not someone to leave Buffy cold. But I'd say it's not as clear cut as "Buffy's mad, but then, well, it's Angel, and she decides to bang him in a romantic glowy manner." :)
GVH It's never as clear cut as all that with Joss & Co., to be sure. I agree that there is an underlying magical cause to all this that neither Buffy nor Angel truly comprehend. But I still think the scene was very much in keeping with Buffy's character (see my prior rationale of Angel being Buffy's constant...oops, sorry, Lost terminology). The magic seems to have just mutated that weakness in her and taken over her reason. For all we know, the very first panel in #34 is them going back to fighting once the smoke clears.
Nobody's going to read this, but I just picked up my issue. Bleh.

Maybe if I hadn't been spoiled I would have liked it more. Likely not.

I've always preferred Angel on his own show. This is no exception.
Same redeem147, Angel aggravated me in Seasons 1-3 because I found him to be far too one note and underdeveloped. I only grew to love him once he moved over to his own show. He's still not one of my all time favorites, but I do like him. I think that his gang, especially Cordy, had very a positive influence on him. However, he sometimes annoyed me when he guest starred on Buffy, just like Buffy annoyed me when she guest starred on Angel. I guess I just really like the characters much more separate.
To me, it feels like regression to put them back together again after all this time. They have both changed and grown so much since Seasons 2 and 3 and know so little about one another's lives.
Not gonna have time to read most of the posts here for a while but is there any chance that this is a corporealized First in Angel mode?

I'd posted and first thought that Twilight was Spike, due to, among other things, his need to cover his face during daylight. But, once he captured Giles, Faith, and Andrew, I thought he might be some incarnation of Caleb, as the four characters all had a season 7 presence, and I feel like I'm recalling something from the last issue that spoke to that.

Now the First comes to mind for the same reason.

[ edited by Brett on 2010-03-12 20:49 ]
Brett, I dunno if there was anything in the previous issue that spoke to Twilight being a Season 7 character, but there was a line of his in a previous issue (a ways back, if I recall) that pretty much cemented him as being one of the males from the last two episodes of Buffy, from that scene at the shrine where Buffy met the white-haired woman/sage(witch?) and killed Caleb. Twilight said/thought-boxed, "I know that move" when he saw Buffy do the from-the-crotch-and-up slice, which is how she dispatched Caleb.

I really hope Angel-as-Twilight isn't The First, unless they're planning on redeeming that lame-ass of a villain. Even then though, it would really remove the personal aspect of it being someone Buffy knows. The First is otherworldly, ancient (Angel and Spike are infants by comparison), and has little connection to Buffy and co.
Heh. Well odds are no one, including Brett, is going to read this at this point, but my pet theory about Twilight's identity was the First, since pretty shortly after that remark about the bisecting. (I posted it in one of the issue discussion threads, either for that issue or shortly after, but I spoilertagged my speculation and it was pretty late in the thread [though not as late as this!].) Really, it may be only all the hub bub after the spoiler came out about it really being Angel that's keeping me from still thinking that this is the First, made flesh after all despite the thwarting of its plan... as we understood it, anyway. Because Angel is acting very weird - and differently with Buffy than everyone else, even after he has no reason to keep up the charade. If the First has become the living personification of Evil, Buffy's new powers being her becoming a counterpart, sort of the living avatar of good - as foretold in some secret prophesy which Giles knows of but has kept close to the vest - I could see that making sense.

If it really is Angel, it sure seems like he and Buffy are basically under the influence of magic Rhohypnol (sp?) at the end here....
Finally got my hands on this issue and all I can say is: Andrew is the muthaf*ckin' man! What a get-up! What a "battle" between Twilight and Andrew!
I hadn't laughed so hard in a long time. Thanks to Joss, Brad and crew!
I read 32-33 today. Man! Angel became a douchebag! Dean Winchester would be so happy! Faith was right back in S3 when he was talking to her about killing someone and she said he needed professional help. He needs! He, in possession of his soul, killed people before, but at least we had the comfort that he did out of his mind (W&H people x Darla and Dru) or he didn't have other choice (Drogyn and Fred), but now... he KILLED when he could have avoided it all... and he beat Faith... I mean, he'd beat Buffy (he did, huh)... but I can't see Angel beating Faith. He is lying also because more the one time it was there for everyone to see that he was the one responsible for all the operation. He killed slayers and soldiers for his own personal vendetta against Buffy. As of now... Angel is a fucking delusional bastard! It is horrible that in the end both men Buffy loves, one lover and the other father, lied to her about something important. But then, Angel was stupid enough to follow the stupid vision Cordy gave him and sent the whole LA to hell just because of his personal vendetta against W&H... even though he gave his friends a choice he didn't give Buffy because he talked to them about it all. I wonder how the LA population would feel if they knew it. Seriously, no excuse give redemption to him. As of now... I really hope that the signing way his shanshu he did in S5 can hold because he sooooooooo doesn't deserve to be a human being... EVER AGAIN!!!

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