Agree. oh, and, um...is Eve still trapped in the elevator?

BoomerBuffyFan | November 13, 10:41 CET

Disagree. Besides Mr. Denisof's great performance this was the worst episode of the season. I know this is supposed to be a Wesley centric episode, but that doesn't mean they can't give Angel anything to do besides yelling at Wes and then lying on the floor moaning and groaning because some Ninja kicked him or a mystical staff stole his free will. And I hope they'll stop turning Spike into a clown.
Disappointing, really.

Elo | November 13, 13:13 CET

Agree. Best ep of the season so far. If I wasn't already Drew Goddard's Minion #300 I'd be rushing to throw myself at his feet. There are reasons Wes is my second favorite Whedonverse character, and this episode highlighted most of 'em.

And Spike's "report" about "Head Boy Percy"? Priceless. :P

Haunt | November 13, 13:20 CET

Best so far. The show is also starting to get it's 'look' back. I guess they're finding a way to do it with less money.

herb | November 13, 13:39 CET

Agreed...I good episode.

Loved Spike's Buffybot reference.
Though one thing I didn't like too much was the somewhat forced Wesley bashing by Angel and Fred.

protector | November 13, 14:01 CET

Spike's always been a bit of a clown, that's what he's good at. He's more believable like that then when he's the tortured soul - well, in my book anyway. I enjoyed this episode a lot. Especially when Wes shot his da. Hmm, issues, lovely.

Caroline | November 13, 14:15 CET

Absolutely the best in a couple of years if you ask me. This was the first one this year that really "got" me. I've been telling my Angel-watching friend that I haven't been feeling the show so far this year, but Ultimate Drew really kicked this one's ass.

I actually yelled out loud when Wes shot his father, I was so surprised that it happened so quickly.

Ultimate Drew ROCKS!!!!!

Cris | November 13, 14:52 CET

It gripped me and I was sucked right in. Also the characters seemed dead on and so many issues were touched upon. I like the way this season is going and can hardly wait for next week.

Linda | November 13, 15:01 CET

The best episode of the season...agreed. This ep is definitely on the right track of bringing back the look/feeling of AtS. Loved the Buffybot reference, more talk of the amulet...(cannot wait to see how this turns out)...and more in depth character dissection. However, I also have to agree with Elo in that the Angel that we are seeing is so far off base. He seems to be sitting at the desk constantly...and please, enuff with the suits. I am under the presumption that this is leading somewhere too, but I'm not buying Angel as big honcho guy and not out there in the thick of it. He may be, but lets see more of that on camera...not just suit wearing, desk babysitting...do nothing Angel. Yikes...ranting much? I'll shut up now.

Coll | November 13, 15:05 CET

I agree that this episode was the best so far. Loved the reference to the buffybot and the way Wesley reverted back to the Wesley of Buffy season 3, when he bumped into the door and the woman in the hall. We haven't seen Wesley that clumsy and weak in awhile. It was interesting that his father could bring out that side. I'm so glad that Angel mentioned that Wes doesn't remember taking Connor but I was confused when Wes mentioned that the last girlfriend he had he chopped up in pieces. What exactly does the fang gang remember? I would assume they remember everything except the parts that included Connor. I hope and it seems that they will explore that in the future since they acknowledged it in last night's episode.

Great episode, great moments!! Wesley killing his father without a thought....scary... Can't wait to see where that action leads him...

lala | November 13, 15:07 CET

... and they can leave Eve in the elevator.

Caroline | November 13, 15:12 CET

ahhh...yes...lala...I forgot about the "don't remember Conner, but does remember the Lilah beheading." Hmmm...what is going on there...??? LOL...and yes prolific...I'd be game for forgetting Eve and letting her be elevator bound for eternity!!!

Coll | November 13, 15:22 CET

agree. Best thus far. Someone (not me) in my household even cried at the end.

Also agree that Eve can stay in the elevator. God I hate her. Like seeing Spike as the comic fool foil. Don't trust Knox one bit.

Love the perfect irony of Dadbot counseling Wes to tell Fred how he feels and then by killing Dadbot Wes does just that.

For now I'll withold a "classic" designation for this ep, but it definitely rates a "significant"

jeebs | November 13, 15:34 CET

lala, I'm right there with you on the subject of Lilah.

I loved the buffybot and percy references.

This, I think and agree, is one of the best eps, if not the best, so far. I haven't really been spoiled so I was very very surprised many times throughout the episode which was just awesome! I really really liked the ending as well. :D

lyn | November 13, 15:34 CET

Leave Eve in the elevator, and bring back Lilah and Lindsey (Maybe if I say it enough times, someone will listen).

Prolific, I agree with the Wes shooting RoboDad. That was a huge Indiana Jones moment! It was so sudden. I love that stuff.

Also, didn't I read somewhere that Boreanaz has a knee injury right now? I guess that's why his stunt double is so bloody obvious in this one. May also be the reason for the desk-sitting.

I still miss the big season long story arc, but this episode went a long way towards soothing my gripes.

Wes & Fred: I love how he sent her off with Knox. She looked so baffled, it was great. I'd sure like to see Wes get over her. He needs a real kitten-with-a-whip kinda gal to love him. Like when Riley went off and found Sam. She is perfect for him. Wes needs someone like her.

Willowy | November 13, 15:46 CET

One reason for Angel being such a desk-jockey so far this season is that DB just had a pretty significant knee surgery and for a short time was confined to crutches. I think now they're just keeping him off his feet as much as possible until everything's healed up. That's why he hasn't been QUITE as active in the fight scenes lately too.

Then of course there's the whole "questioning his place, second guessing his decision, feeling guilty for making the decision FOR the others, and just basic overall ennui" angle that the character is taking right now... so I'm not surprised he's been acting the way he has been.

Edited to add: Willowy beat me to the punch with the knee surgery thing. What she said. ;)

[ edited by Haunt on 2003-11-13 16:50 ]

Haunt | November 13, 15:49 CET

Okay, knee surgery, got it. That makes more sense. Thankfully.

Coll | November 13, 15:53 CET

I also think this was the best episode so far this season. It had a lot going for it. I can't wait to find out though just what they all remember. I don't see how Wesley can remember Lila being his girlfriend but not what led up to her becoming his girlfriend. It was his estrangement from the group that led him into her arms and he was estranged from the group because he kidnapped Connor. I was glad to see Angel finally realize that Wesley did all that because he thought it was for the best and I was glad that Angel told Wesley that he was the one that had to always make the tough decisions and he always did what was right. I also loved how both Spike and Angel tried to cheer Wesley up by telling him they too killed a parent and Wesley's reaction to both their comments. I also got a big chuckle out of Spike's mention of the Buffybot (without actually mentioning the name) and I loved it when he saved Gunn. The conversation with Eve in the elevator was getting good and Spike definitely seemed to be finally getting some answers when the power went off. Was the amulet meant for Angel or Spike or someone else and if they had wanted someone else, who could it have been? Buffy? Dawn? or even Willow?

Wesley was great and it was nice to see him finally confront his anger and his feelings for his father. His quick response to shooting him when he grabbed Fred was shocking and his reaction was great (his vomitting). I personally would like to see Wesley finally get the girl he wants. I wanted him and Fred together from the beginning and the sparks were really starting to fly before the memory loss thing. I don't want to see yet another guy fall for her though (Knox).

As for Eve, I didn't think she was so bad this episode. Maybe I'm getting used to her but she just didn't seem so smug and obnoxious this time. I too, though, would prefer if Lila was back.

Firefly Flanatic | November 13, 16:33 CET

I'm with the overwhelming majority here. This was (finally) a great episode. We over here were wondering when this season would finally hit its stride. Characters were clicking, Lorne was WAY over the top again, Wes was a klutz when flustered, Spike was the wise-ass we all know and love, Eve was left in the elevator...hopefully indefinitely, and the references to previous events like the Buffy-bot and Lilah were fantastic. This episode really felt like it was for the long-time fans.

meredith | November 13, 16:35 CET

I agree - best ep so far this season. The writing is finally "on".

I'm with blwessels - it'll be great finding out what their memories now hold. I don't see any contradiction at all in their apparently selective memory. People can make up all kinds of "motivations" for their actions. In experiments with people whose right and left brains are disconnected, you can give a command to the right side of the brain (such as WALK) by keeping it in the part of the visual field that only the right hemisphere can see, and the person will comply and start to walk out of the room. But when you ask the person's left hemisphere why they got up, they will say something like "To get a Coke". They never say they don't know, or some unknown urge came over them or anything. They always have a reason. (From "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, citing Gazzaniga.)

My point (and I do have one) is that when they removed Connor (who is really now the Anti-Dawn) from everyone's memories they (whoever did the removing) could easily have inserted some other reason for all the other events that occurred, but it wouldn't have to be anything very substantial. People will rationalize their actions on their own just fine. It'll be interesting to see how well everybody's "memories" match up with one another's or if there are discrepancies. There are lots of examples in the Buffyverse (and in fiction in general) of people acting under some sort of mind control and making up their own explanations for their actions, although I can't really think of any offhand. Gunn certainly did not follow this pattern when he failed to come up with a reason for peeing all over everything.

Anyway, I hope this episode is a sign that they're finally hitting their stride this season and the quality stays high!

melsta | November 13, 17:22 CET

A great ep. They better actually do something with the Wesley/Fred/Knox triangle.

Random Question: When did Wesley stop wearing glasses? He didn't have any on this episode. Of course, the last time I remember him wearing glasses was the second season.

Invisible Green | November 13, 17:22 CET

Agreed! Loved it.

And people, can we please get over the Connor thing? It's totally 100% clear that in this universe, magic can alter people's awareness in inconsistent ways. ("Ben is Glory! Ben is ... what?" / "I'm under your spellll.") It's totally understandable that Wes would remember Lilah but not Connor. At least until some big palooka opens his mouth.

Agreed on the Angel thing, though. He really hasn't been himself this season. It's kinda the Buffy curse: After a while, the side characters are so much richer than the title character. I hope he breaks out of it.

[ edited by fraying on 2003-11-13 18:33 ]

fraying | November 13, 17:32 CET

I liked the episode. The best, though, was the scene where Wesley shot his "dad"- awesome. It was a single moment that brilliantly summed up so much about the character. Well done.

kishi | November 13, 18:49 CET

I thought it was brilliantly done, and to my mind, it's an instant classic, for both performances and writing. But then, I'm a huge Wesley fan, so this was like Christmas in November for me. It was emotional (the uh, member of your household was not alone in tears, jeebs), tied into the history of the show, funny, and moved story forward in an engaging way. No complaints here.

I think I might need to become a minion of Ultimate Drew now.

keever | November 13, 19:00 CET

Extroadinary ep. It's a Goddarsode!
I wouldn't say it was necassarily the best ep this season, but it's right up there. But then, I've been liking this season.

I was thrilled to see Wes mention Lilah and what he had to do to her; this was ME letting the audience know that the characters do remember what happened last year, just sans Connor. It also seemed to me a suggestion that this lack of info will lead to problems (eg. Wes not knowing why Angel doesn't trust him) that may lead to Angel telling his friends what he had done to their memories.

Also loved the Spike-Eve confrontation in the elevator. I enjoy wiseass!Spike but I like to see him looking dangerous as well. And his having to concentrate to punch the cyborg choking Gunn. Hee!

But Wes shooting his father? I gasped. Its suddeness and lack of hesitation made it incrediblly powerful and shocking (so glad I was unspoiled!) AD was amazing, as usual when given the opportunity.

And now we know why the promo pics were all yellow-y!

Joss' bitch | November 13, 19:14 CET

I must agree with the general consensus.. it was a GREAT ep!!! The best so far. I loved the buffybot reference as well as Spike making fun of Wes, although I am a Wes fan, its still hysterical. And Eve in the elevator! YES, LEAVE HER THERE!!!!! :D And Wes shooting his father, very well done--i liked how he had no hesitation, all it took was Fred. -sighs- Praises galore for Joss & Co!!

buffyfanatic18 | November 13, 19:24 CET

Is it just me, or does the Dad-shooting have the very same rhythm as the Wash-choosing (by Zoe, in Firefly ep "War Stories")?

That's not a bad thing, mind you. I loved when Zoe interrupted Nizka to choose, and I loved when Wes interrupted his pa to shoot him.

Knock knock. Who's there? Interrupting plot point. Interrupting plot po... BANG!

bogu_salias | November 13, 19:52 CET

I, too, thought that the ep was the best of the season, and liked how Angel said that Wes made the tough choices that had to be made. I also was shocked and amazed when Wes shot his father and then uked in the corner.

HOWEVER, I think that he is a complete _____ for not doing anything about Fred and compounding it by not only allowing her to go with another man, but ENCOURAGING her to do it!?!? WTF! After showing himself to have big cojones throughout the episode, he shamefully gave them back at the end. Yuck. I loved it last season when Wes went after and kissed Fred, consequences be damned. Now she's not even attached and he can't do anything.

If you can't get off the pot for the person you like/love, you don't deserve them. Simple as that.

brother_grady | November 13, 19:59 CET

I thought it was pretty week too when Wesley told Fred she 'should go.' 'Self-pitying child' is what Fred called him and that's how he seemed in that scene- like he wanted to send her away so he could feel sorry for himself that he didn't have her. Fred was there, willing to talk about things! And he just sends her away?! What was that?

forcorreo | November 13, 20:10 CET

I think Wes knows he's deeply disturbed and would probably cause a lot of damage to Fred if they hooked up.
Loved the episode, things are really gelling.

vpecoraro | November 13, 20:27 CET

I thought it was a great episode.
I have a question. Is it okay to post a link to our own website on the message board, or is that in bad taste too?

400lb_Gorilla | November 13, 21:07 CET

Okay, I really liked Melsta explanation on the memory loss answer and it being replaced with other memories. Because, yes a persons life and things that happen to them make them who they are and it wouldn't have made any sense to me for Wesley to be how he is and remember Lila but not Connor without a good explaination. I think Melsta's explanation makes sense and would tie into the story really well. I think it would be interesting if they don't have shared memories and that some of them remember things differently.
As for Wesley telling Fred to go on the date. Well, he just murdered his father. Yes, it wasn't really his father but he didn't know that until after he did it and obviously the fact that he didn't hesitate to shoot him, and shoot him repeatedly, until he was dead was an indication that he has major issues. He also did it in front of Fred and he can't bear that he showed her that side of him. But is it me, or does she seem to get turned on by Wesley more when he shows his darker side??
I also made a comment earlier about the amulet and who it was meant for. If it wasn't meant for Angel then who was it meant for. I think it could only have been Spike or Buffy. If it was meant for Buffy was the reason to have something to keep Angel there forever? He'd never leave Buffy if he knew she was trapped at Wolfram & Hart. And if it was meant for Spike, what is the reasoning behind that. I hope that wasn't just a teaser that they don't intend to answer.

Firefly Flanatic | November 13, 21:08 CET

Also in defense of poor wimpy Wes, he was told by quasi-drunken Fred a couple of episodes that her real interest was in Knox. For Fred,he's apparently not even really on the radar screen. He might have good reason to believe it's essentially a lost cause, esp. after their earlier altercation. (C'mon guys, how many of us would pursue a woman we have good reason to believe was not interested, hours after being called a self-pitying child in front of their father? That many? Well, okay.)

Best episode in some time, BTW. And, yeah, I was concerned that a non-evil Spike meant a boring Spike -- but I think they've found a way around that. He's evolving into a really cool antihero.

bobster | November 13, 21:09 CET

Self links are against the rules here, however if you would like something posted email one of the admins or mods.

Simon | November 13, 21:12 CET

Ok, Thank you.

400lb_Gorilla | November 13, 21:14 CET

In response to "why would the amulet have been meant for Spike?"... I've speculated (not spoilerish, just random wondering aloud) if perhaps W&H took advantage of the OTHER vampire with a soul for the purposes of "robbing" Angel of his rightful destiny, i.e. the Shanshu Prophecy. I'm not sure what they would gain by that exactly, but perhaps they orchestrated events in such a way so as to guarantee Spike got the amulet, stopped the apocalypse and thereby earned Shanshu... thus preventing Angel from getting it.

*shrug* Just a thought...

Haunt | November 13, 21:45 CET

It's ok to self link in the COMMENTS section, just don't post it on the frontpage.

ETA: if it's relevant to the discussion!

Caroline | November 13, 23:37 CET

I agree!! This episode reminded why I'm a fan of this show and just pulled me right back in. Loved it.

And to think I almost gave up on it too. *hangs head in shame*

nychick | November 14, 00:37 CET

"I think Wes knows he's deeply disturbed and would probably cause a lot of damage to Fred if they hooked up."

I think it would have been better for both of them, whatever the outcome, if they were to talk about it. Talking about it doesn't mean they're going to hook up. Instead, it looks to me like Wesley's playing the martyr, probably feeling sorry for himself. Ok, I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me.

[ edited by forcorreo on 2003-11-14 01:53 ]

forcorreo | November 14, 00:53 CET

thanks prolific, would you guys care to check out my blog, and tell me what you think, my review of angel is up there. the address is www.shawnmannon.blogspot.com your guys input would be really helpfull.

400lb_Gorilla | November 14, 04:07 CET

Excellent episode. It was time Wes got something to do. Alexis is great when his character starts to face some ugly truths in his life. I agree both Fred and Angel were pretty harsh on him in the beginning but then that was the idea. (Funny how Angel berated him for putting Fred in the field and Fred for suggesting she shouldn't be in the field.)
Nice touch with 'Father' there (casting in-joke. Nice) Some boards have people complaining that they 'copped out' by dad being a construct, but I disagree. Because on a physical level, that he's still alive, doesn't matter to us, since we've never seen him anyway. But the EMOTIONAL charge of the moment is largely still there since Wesley didn't KNOW it wasn't his father. Great line there: "No I was SURE it was him." Now if Wesley had said afterwards that he figured it out it was another robot, THAT would have been a cop out.

Oh and the moments where both Spike and Angel try to console Wes with their own parent-killing stories were priceless! As well as Spike's saving Gunn "Shh....gotta concentrate." Spike is still mainly comic relief but at least he's doing more as well, and his talk with Eve was a relief in the sense that at least SOMEONE is wondering about these issues.

And ah, poor Wesley...."No, it was because he was pointing a gun at YOU...." And there it is. In her face, in the first split second she realizes what he means. The answer he didn't want to admit he already knew.

All in all the show is getting on the road here! The trailer for next week looked great! Can't wait.

EdDantes | November 14, 10:02 CET

400lb_Gorilla, we're discussing Entertainment Geekly's review. If what you wrote on your site pertains to that, by all means link to it. Try not to use it as an excuse to get feedback on your site.

Caroline | November 14, 10:17 CET

Heck that was a brilliant episode. I wonder who this mysterious new group is.

Simon | November 14, 19:52 CET

Loved the comment at the very beginning, referring to Wes buying a collapsable sword from this guy - which we hear about earlier in the series. In Storyteller, Andrew tells Warren/TheFirst about buying the knife, and mentions other weapons being sold - including a collapsable sword. Nice chunk of tie-in going there.

Wes always having to make the difficult decisions, mostly for the sake of others... that simple theme was perfectly portrayed at the end when he told Fred to go. It was obvious that neither of them really knew how to handle it, but he took it upon himself to choose. Typical Wesley. Is he saving her the pain or playing the martyr? I'm not sure. But that's who he is.

It's obvious from Drew's first penned episode - Selfless - that he's an incredible fan and deserves to be writing for this show. His use of all the tiny moments in backstory, like the bit about the Buffybot or Head Boy and even nervous/clumsy Wes, is absolutely perfect. Being reminded about those sometimes insignificant things really helps tie everything together, and seem more realistic. It's those details that really allow you to get submerged into this world. And thus, Goddard has quickly become one of my favorite writers.

Obviously, I enjoyed this episode.

Greyflowers | November 15, 08:12 CET