March 30 2010
Good character development includes the all-important "F*@% Yeah" moment.
io9 takes an in-depth look at one of the key elements behind what inspires character investment in an audience. Multiple Firefly and other tangentially Whedon-related examples cited.
You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.
Emily.G | March 30, 06:14 CET
Buffy tends to have smaller moments, but my favorites are Giles'. When he saddles up after Jenny is killed. "I'd like to test that theory" (probably his best, shining moment). Funny how kick-ass lines tend to be six words.
ern | March 30, 12:01 CET
Niels van Eekelen | March 30, 13:02 CET
I think there were a lot of "fuck yeah" moments in both Buffy & Angel, not just for the heros, but the villians as well. It's one of the things that made both series so interesting.
menomegirl | March 30, 13:03 CET
Agree that Crichton's "space walk" was a great FY moment because I loved the times when we were reminded that John Crichton was an astronaut and astrophysicist - he'd know it wouldn't kill him but he'd also know it'd be hella dangerous which is why it fit perfectly as a last ditch "balls to the wall" escape attempt. The best "fuck yeah"s (like the best action scenes) flow from the character.
Also, IMO Sulu's best FY moment is in "Undiscovered Country" as they're racing to Kitomer to assist the Enterprise and one of his crew says of the ship (something like) "But sir, she'll fly apart" and he responds without hesitation "Well fly her apart then !".
(and though BSG was full of them, the hot jump wasn't a fuck yeah moment for Adama IMO, that was all the Galactica herself. Tough "little" ship ;)
Some faves that spring to mind (TV and films):
- "Chuck" and "Guys ? I know Kung-fu".
- Xander's "I like the quiet" moment from "The Zeppo".
- Al Gough's last run (and more pertinently, jump) from "Flashforward" (don't agree with the article that it's had none though I do think some have been unearned). In your face pre-destination. Fuck yeah.
- as mentioned, River's "My turn" from 'Serenity'.
- Buffy stands in the face of evil and the tide turns from 'Chosen'.
- "Let's go to work" from 'Not Fade Away'.
- the entire rest of 'Not Fade Away' ;). Poetry slam (and particularly 'effulgent'), Gunn's ten minutes, Illyria's wish to do more violence. Perfect, near as.
- the end of the Batmobile vs Joker Lorry chase when the "Bat-bike" rolls up the wall, flips and comes back down in 'The Dark Knight'
- same film when Old Long Ears KNOWS for a cast-iron fact that "There aren't going to be any fireworks".
- "I'm The Doctor and you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up" from 'Forest of the Dead'.
- and every other time the end of all hope is suddenly punctuated by a slightly elderly, rhythmic wheezing sound. Another tough little ship (but only on the outside ;).
And no doubt loads of others that don't (spring to mind that is).
Saje | March 30, 13:05 CET
I agree.
menomegirl | March 30, 13:11 CET
Sunfire | March 30, 13:22 CET
Mileage etc. as always.
(and from this distance i'd live there, even if i'd probably regret it in reality. They have spaceships, I can put up with a lot of dystopia for spaceships ;)
Saje | March 30, 13:40 CET
Simon | March 30, 14:13 CET
"I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. And you are?"
Paul_Rocks | March 30, 14:31 CET
I'd even go so far as to say big comedy moments could be included in the category. For example, Harmony loading a body into a laundry bag and having it bank off the dumpster below. "Oh, crapola!"
CrazyKidBen | March 30, 15:51 CET
Farscape was actually full of FY moments. I vividly remember Chrichton's speechifying while he's got a thermonuclear device hanging around his neck. There was actually the time he asked for a "hell yea" after kicking the Scorpius neural clone's arse. Still, interesting list. But as I said, subjective.
[ edited by azzers on 2010-03-30 16:09 ]
azzers | March 30, 15:58 CET
Oh my God, Simon, you're kidding?
I hate that line. It's one of the worst lines Angel ever uttered. (IMO, of course).
Mine is from "You're Welcome" too. Only mine is Lindsey throwing Angel across the room. :)
Edited to add: my favorite ever FY moment is from season 4 of Xena, when Gabrielle picks up a sword and uses it after Callisto strikes Xena down.
[ edited by menomegirl on 2010-03-30 16:29 ]
menomegirl | March 30, 16:25 CET
Simon | March 30, 16:28 CET
menomegirl | March 30, 16:31 CET
"Well, when you're talking FY moments, everything is subjective. One person doesn't like the Mal moment, I don't particularly care for the River moment. You know, that moment in which multiple enemies suddenly forgot that they had guns and decided to attack black ninja style? I liked the thought of the River moment and the emotion was definitely right, I just would have liked it better if it hadn't become some ridiculous to me that I was nearly laughing the first time I saw it."
You mean the reavers? Did they have guns? Even if they did, I doubt that's the way they prefered killing. Besides, it was one girl, I doubt they thought they needed guns.
Skytteflickan88 | March 30, 16:37 CET
Well, they'd already shot three people either with a ship cannon or darts by that point so I'm not we can make the claim they didn't know how to do it. And after reaver #10 bites it, I'm sorry but I just don't believe one of them doesn't pick up a gun and end it.
My problem with the Buffy-esque approach is that in Buffy we are presented with vampires and demons having some sort of moral qualms about killing her in such a simple way. Something that was actually brilliantly higlighted with Warren when he realizes out of desperation, "wait a minute, *I* can do this." The reavers seem to be opposite, they just want to kill and they don't seem to care what manner they choose. Wash would be the perfect example. They didn't need to fire into the cockpit, there was no reason. The ship had crashed. They may want to eat you alive, they don't have to.
So within that movie we had these two different ideas, "reavers will kill anyone at any time" and "reavers have to kill you in hand to hand or not at all" working within a roughly 30 minute window. I'm not saying it has to bug other people, it just drove me batty.
azzers | March 30, 17:25 CET
"Big damn heroes, sir."
"Ain't we just."
"There's just one thing you forgot about. Sunrise. [...] It's in like nine hours, moron."
Cordelia's tearing apart Harmony at the end of "BBB."
"There are three flowers in a vase. The third flower is green."
Besides "I'd like to test that theory," "Two to Go" also has the (to me anyway) delightful, though not awesome in the "good" (moral) sense: "Jonathan. Andrew. You boys like magic, don't you? Abracadabra."
"You're not in my gorram mind, you're on my gorram SHIP!"
"What can I say? I'm the best actor in the world." "Second best."
The rocket launcher.
Every Dominic/Adelle scene, really, but: "Bitch. I'd rather die." "I'd rather you didn't."
This is more a moment of awesome for the show than for the character, but I get chills every time I think of: "We're the only thing standing between you and real darkness!" "I know. You're all fired."
Wesley shooting his "father." My stomach clenched.
The "Checkpoint" speech to the council.
Dawn screaming at the "ghost" keeping her from her "mother" to die in CWDP.
"I walk. I talk. I shop, I sneeze. I'm gonna be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out, and I don't sleep on a bed of bones. So GIVE ME BACK MY FRIENDS."
"You're a dead man, Finn." "No sir, I'm an anarchist."
"You are NOT going to kill those people." "Why not?" "Because it's wrong."
Basically *all of* "Out of Gas" for Mal, but especially drawing a gun on the people invading his ship right after being shot, giving them instructions by name, giving himself an adrenhaline shot....
[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-03-30 17:40 ]
WilliamTheB | March 30, 17:31 CET
clubsilencio | March 30, 17:31 CET
"Shepherd Book once told me, 'If you can't do something smart, do something right'." Jayne, Serenity
Vera_Samuels | March 30, 18:22 CET
Reavers absolutely had guns. They had regular guns (Jayne and Simon were shot with bullets), some kind of dart guns, and, of course, they had poop-balls, which were presumably fired from some kind of gun or device. However, it had been stated more than once in the movie that Reaver prefer the upclose kill. They like to get their hand and teeth into their prey. They are psychotic, cannabalistic monsters, not trained soldiers. Sure a few of them used guns against the crew when they were in good cover and shooting back, but most of the Reavers suicidally charged into the room. With River that close, their insticts would would have been stronger than whatever intelligence they had left that might have told them: "Hey there's an easier way to do this."
You are also underestimating the difficulty of using guns in an enclosed space. With River moving quickly, hacking and slashing, even if one thought, "Hey maybe I should just shoot her instead of suicidally charging her like the last ten guys," (which a Reaver would certainly never think in such a situation) by the time he actually brought his gun up, aimed and fired, the psychic killing machine, who started off four feet away, would have chopped his head off. And even if he got a shot off he would be more likely to hit his own guys rather than the single tiny ballerina tearing them to shreds.
You are also underestimating the effectiveness of using a close-quarters weapon in . . . well . . . close quarters. Especially in the dark.
And lastly you are underestimating the badassedness of River, who is a psychic assassin with a major grudge. "My turn" indeed.
In short, I find nothing unrealistic about that sequence (except the whole psychic assassin-trained teen-aged girl vs. an army of space zombies thing).
Fuck-Yeah
icallitvera | March 30, 18:36 CET
Point 1: That scene alone tells you that, "yes, they are in fact capable of some tactical thought." Unless your case is they just fire randomly and got lucky twice and there were not tactics involved. We don't have to claim they are smart, or logical. We DO need to be consistent from one scene to the next though. The fact that they use cover tells you they may not all be smart, but they're not all stupid either.
Regarding close quarters. If her range is 4 feet, you stand back 5 feet. We've established they possess basic tactical thought even if it is more instinctual than intellectual. Hell, they are fighting ship to ship combat earlier. And I doubt they care about inadvertantly killing their friends either, they seem perfectly willing to die for killing something else.
Meanwhile the room did look like it was a choke point but looked much larger than 10x10 with an open doorway and cover in the room. They figured out the doorway previously, I can't agree with your supposition that now that she's in the room, the Reavers are no longer allowed to use cover. I love a good ninja brawl as much as the next person, I'm just realistic enough to know that they don't actually happen in real life when people aren't sparring. The reaver's aren't trying to score 10's with the judges, they're trying to kill a person.
Re: badassedness - Funny. If she were using her brain to kill them, or at some point she gave some explanation that she was using her brain to prevent them from thinking clearly I would have bought it. We weren't given these explanations. Justification then becomes a matter of fanwanking a theory to fit something so our end result makes sense. Yes, I can CREATE a theory to explain that scene, but I can't say that using basic logic and the facts we have seen up until that point can get me there.
And that's my problem. It irks me a little when TV shows vary their rules episode by episode, but not nearly as much as when a motion picture does it in the same motion picture. And that said, I'm only justifying *my* reaction. Your milage may vary.
azzers | March 30, 19:25 CET
LKW | March 30, 19:34 CET
hacksaway | March 30, 19:55 CET
And yes, mostly because "it looked frickin' awesome."
icallitvera | March 30, 20:18 CET
my source of contention: his mention of the wolfman in such a way that assumes that everyone who reads his article will agree with him that it is a forgettable film. just because the film does not have what he needs that doesn't mean it doesn't have what some people need. and i think that it's safe to say the same about a lot of the works he does and does not mention.
the wolfman is one of the only films i've seen lately that i cannot wait to watch again. in fact, the only other (recent) film i even have the patience to sit through again is harry potter and the half blood prince, due to its several draco FY moments.
tjbw | March 30, 20:30 CET
flakbait | March 30, 20:45 CET
Saje | March 30, 20:48 CET
Even if I let you have the 10 x 10 argument, which I honestly think was larger since I'm sitting in a 10x10 room at the moment and you couldn't fit that many people in a line across it without being shoulder to shoulder, that still doesn't explain why someone isn't firing a gun. Again, they were doing it before. Yes, they are getting into the room but they're not taking it. So what has changed?
And thanks for insinuating that my problem with film elements stems from my need to have a problem with the film rather than something I'm actually seeing. That's just swell. I do ever so enjoy armchair psychoanalysis of people making points about story construction. I find that very respectful. What's my response to that supposed to be?
Should we throw out anything else that could cause me to have problems with film construction like, "you hate Joss Whedon" or "a psychic female teenager must have killed your dog?"
Perhaps I should restate what I said.
And stated very simply, I do not understand from the logic of the movie how the reavers go from "space-faring scourge capable of battling the Alliance" to "mindless cattle in an abattoir." Especially since when initially taking the room, they seemed capable of some degree of tactical thought.
azzers | March 30, 21:23 CET
Willow, "She's with me." I cheer every time.
Also Angel at the end of Season 2 "Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends...No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?" Buffy, "Me."
And this is a more general FY moment for the entire Buffy series, but the First's montage at the end of S07E01. Dude. It's about power.
I'm getting all nostalgic from this post.
Kio Rustleweed | March 30, 21:43 CET
Saying "why didn't the Reavers just not be stupid" is assuming that Reavers think like normal people. It's true that we don't know anything about Reaver society. Do they have some kind of hierarchy? Are some Reavers smarter than others? Certainly the Reavers that suicidally charging into Jayne's minigun's field of fire didn't seem smart enough to pilot a space ship.
But, the Reavers didn't launch an organized attack on the Alliance, they just, individually, chased Serenity into the middle of an Alliance fleet. Maybe when Reavers are only around other Reavers they sit around drinking chianti and discussing Sun Tzu. Or maybe not. We don't know. What we do know is that when Reavers are around normal people they tend to charge with no regard for their own lives and only use guns when they are physically incapable of reaching their prey with their own hands. It's the classic banzai charge. Horribly wasteful in terms of lives lost but capable of breaking the lines of even better armed and positioned enemies. Nowhere in the film does it say that Reavers are capable of sitting back and considering whether it would be best to use a gun or an axe in this particular situation. It really bugs me too when creators completely disregard their own mythology but as the mental acuity of Reavers has never been established most people will give the film the benefit of the doubt. My view has always been: why poke holes in something if you don't have to?
Also, no one said you had to keep debating this with me. Personally I was enjoying the back and forth, and did not mean to offend you on a personal level with anything I wrote.
The short version is this: at the beginning of the film it was entirely possible that you were right; that Reavers were in fact smart enough to know when to use a gun and when not to. It was also equally possible that I was right and that Reavers, when faced with prey in easy reach will charge regardless of the tactical situation. Since they did the latter my theory proved to be correct. And since their actions can be rationalized I don't see the harm in enjoying the scene for its own sake. Now maybe you wish Reavers were smart enough to know when to use guns (which I'll concede might have made them more interesting and scarier in the long run), but that's a whole other discussion and this post is already way too long.
icallitvera | March 30, 22:36 CET
Buffy kicking Angelus in the balls at the end of Innocence.
Pretty much any time Wesley has a gun.
And the article is right, you don't always get a FY moment in real life...but then again, there's Joss himself:
"So, why do you write these strong female characters?"
"Because you're still asking me that question."
Fuck. Yeah.
heinouslizard | March 30, 22:42 CET
hacksaway | March 30, 22:57 CET
Del | March 31, 01:55 CET
No, it's not really that strong of a moment for me, although I am really fond of it. I just see how it could be despite being dark and grisly.
Sunfire | March 31, 02:35 CET
azzers | March 31, 04:03 CET
I'd also like to add two personal favorites, one which may not even have a line attached: Spike standing up at the end of "I Only Have Eyes For You," for starters, and of course "I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm..."
And, lastly, "Are you ready to be strong?"
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | March 31, 05:58 CET
I also love;
-Buffy marching towards the school in Prophecy Girl with Angel and Xander following her and the BtVS theme playing in the background. Yeah it’s totally cheesy but I love it.
-Buffy kicking Angelus in the balls
- Buffy facing off with Spike in Schoolhard - "You shouldn't have come here"
-When Buffy gatecrashes the Acathala ceremony and greets Angelus with “Hello lover.” She’s so badass in that scene.
-Buffy and Faith sizing each other up before their big fight in Graduation Day - "You ready to cut loose?” “Try me”
-Buffy beating the crap outta Sunday and all of the Scoobies charging in to help her - “In the three seconds it takes for you to turn to dust, I think you’ll find the mistake was touching my stuff!”
-Buffy and Faith’s face off in This Year’s Girl - “To me, mostly, it means you still like to mouth off about things you don’t understand (hears sirens) Uh oh, looks like somebody knows you’re here!”
-Willow brain blasting Glory in The Gift - “She’s with me!”
-Buffy hitting Glory with the troll hammer - “Ah, Glory? (BAM!) You’re not the brightest god in the heavens are you?”
-Buffy killing Razor’s gang
-Buffy and Willow’s square off in Two to Go - “Six years as the sideman now I get to be the slayer”
-Giles’s return – “I’d like to test that theory”
-Faith attacking Caleb in Dirty Girls (Yeah I have no idea why because she gets her arse kicked, but I love her attitude here and when she gets one good lick in)
- When Buffy and Satsu come through the portal in The Long Way Home - "Sound off! Who’s hurt? Stay calm, dammit!" "No. Panic"
For Ats;
Angel dusting two vampires at the same time in City Off
Lilah chopping Linwoods head off at their board meeting in Deep Down
Gunn hurling the axe into the Senators head in NFA
Anytime Angel punches Lindsey in the face!
Illyria punching Vail’s face so hard that it explodes – “Take your best shot little girl”
Team Angel VS Holtz’s men in Lullaby
For Dollhouse;
Mellie attacking Hearn
Echo turning on Alpha in Omega
Adelle squaring off against Mr Ambrose and Boyd shooting them all dead. LOVE IT.
When Adelle tells Topher “she runs the house” and that she won’t let anyone challenge that and then Echo walks back in all slow-mo and badass
Echo VS Whiskey/Clyde – “I will scrub the floor with you”
Sorry long list! I think the shows have lots of great moments. Outside of the Jossverse I'd say BSG probably had the most 'Fuck Yeah!' moments for me.
vampmogs | March 31, 12:06 CET
I loved that moment too, vampmogs. I wasn't expecting it at all. I also liked another Lilah moment, when she shot the bad guy in the episode "Billy".
Lilah was pretty kick-ass, even if she was evil.
menomegirl | March 31, 12:15 CET
Someone should really write a Lilah VS Adelle fic.
[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-03-31 12:34 ]
vampmogs | March 31, 12:18 CET
Someone should make a list.
menomegirl | March 31, 12:39 CET
Nos | March 31, 15:28 CET