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April 05 2010

(SPOILER) MTV Splash Page Buffy Season 8 interview with Brad Meltzer. Talks of 'the final taboo' in the Buffyverse. Includes (NSFW?) preview panel from this week's issue #34.

Major spoiler warning, Batman.
Uh-oh, Spaghetti-Os.
I think it and you magically type it out for me, The Dark Shape.
I'd love to know what Jeanty thought about sketching that *snort*
Thats quite the picture
Huh...higher? oh my...
Assume crash positions.
I'm going to read this issue in a dark room. If anyone knocks, I'll scream at them to leave me alone.
Yes get ready for what happens After The Fall.
O_O

Uh. Well. I hope that answers the body parts question. *cough* Looks like it's a good thing I'm sitting in the very back row of the classroom. My inner militant Buffy/Angel shipper just needs a moment to recover from the shock before she can start roaring in triumph, and I shall now take advantage of that moment to flee so that the inevitable profusions of glee will happen at a more appropriate elsewhere.
Okay,I think we are very clear now on why Meltzer wanted a mature readers warning.
Buffy and Angel are going to play Spartacus: Blood and Sand. (Not the fighting bits).
There's no glow! YAY
Buffy and Angel are going to play Spartacus: Blood and Sand. (Not the fighting bits).


They're going to be pleasured by others while having a political discussion?
That is a very very disturbing panel. And no offense to Brad but i don't think that he's that in touch with the fandom. Most fans weren't happy and requesting Angel and Buffy to be together even though Angel is the bad guy. Most fans were angered,disturbed,puzzeled by issue33's ending. And this issue seems like it will be a 100 times worse.

I think Buffy as a female icon/rolemodel for so many is about to come to an end. I'm gonna make my final decision with this issue but as it stands now, i think it's only going to reaffirm my views.
May i speak on behalf of the Meltzer poll...I'm happy...and so were lots of others...he said many will hate and many will like...loads on the boards i was on were loving it...guess he was filtering his responses!! And as a female role model...she's allowed to slip...it's part of being the role model...how she deals with the situation and the repercussions is the part people look to...let the woman have her churros and sex when she must!!!
I think this is exciting! I love how they are going to have them together. I don't know what this will lead to, or what will come of this but whatever it is, it's extremely exciting. I can't wait for Joss to be on this and for the next couple of issues, I hope they don't disappoint with this Buffy Angel thing, I just love it! Will be getting the new issues as soon as I possibly can.

Vergil - I don't recall most anyone who was "angered, disturbed, puzzled" I sure has heck wasn't, I love what they are doing, I trust them. Plus I love the idea of Angel and Buff being back, in any sense.

And "I think Buffy as a female icon/rolemodel for so many is about to come to an end"... yeah I don't think so. Whether they look at her being with the "bad guy" as a mistake or not, they understand that icons and rolemodels can make mistakes. And that doesn't shy from all of the amazing aspects Buffy brings to her fans. This will do nothing of the sort, well maybe for you it might, but I doubt for "Most Fans". I'm not sure that it is Brad that is not in touch with the fandom. But then again, maybe someone is waiting for Spike to show up and save her from this disturbing panel. Who knows.

Obviously it's pretty hard to go and speak for everyone else.
Put me on the side of "Happy" as well. Although that happiness is tempered by the thought that this is Joss and how many happy endings have we seen from him so far???
I’m also happy – but it seems for very different reasons as to others here.

I see this as a dark act and one that’s going to lead to Buffy’s fall from grace. Nothing in the text seems to say this is a positive development at all, quite the opposite, and Allie’s comments in the Q/A also say we should be worried that will betray her morals and ideals because of who Twangel is. So no good can come of this, me thinks. But I find that exciting because I’ve craved a Buffy-goes-dark storyline since early on into S8 and it seems like it’s finally being delivered.

Buffy's my girl, my favourite fictional character ever, but I'm really excited to see an arc where she fucks up badly. Still not sure what to make of people thinking this is a positive development for either character though, but m’kay. I love Angel and I'm quite fond of B/A but I'm not getting why people think this is a positive development for the ship.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-04-05 23:18 ]
I see this as a dark act and one that’s going to lead to Buffy’s fall from grace. Nothing in the text seems to say this is a positive development at all, quite the opposite...

That's my reading too, vampmogs. And like you, I think it's setting up a dark but potentially awesome storyline.
Vergil - I don't recall most anyone who was "angered, disturbed, puzzled" I sure has heck wasn't, I love what they are doing, I trust them. Plus I love the idea of Angel and Buff being back, in any sense.


The biggest boards(Slayalive,Buffyforums,ect) were filled with angry,disturbed,confused fans. Not every Buffy fan is an Angel fan. Even if they are a Buffy and Angel fan, it still doesn't mean that they are bangel fans.

And "I think Buffy as a female icon/rolemodel for so many is about to come to an end"... yeah I don't think so. Whether they look at her being with the "bad guy" as a mistake or not, they understand that icons and rolemodels can make mistakes. And that doesn't shy from all of the amazing aspects Buffy brings to her fans. This will do nothing of the sort, well maybe for you it might, but I doubt for "Most Fans". I'm not sure that it is Brad that is not in touch with the fandom. But then again, maybe someone is waiting for Spike to show up and save her from this disturbing panel. Who knows.


Making mistakes is human, if Buffy's doing this under her own free will then it's much bigger then a simple mistake. Angel's explenation for doing what he did was weak and lame. Buffy simply accepting it and forgetting that this guy has been terrorizing/killing/torturing her slayers and friends this past season is far beyond a simple mistake. No, i don't know about Brad but i do know about myself and i've been following Buffy since the beginning on tv and have been on the net since almost that long. I doubt that Brad has had so much time to waste on boards and such as i did. And yes Buffy as a female icon is under threat, what sort of message does it give of willingly having sex with a massmurdering psychopath. They will probably whitewash Angel(as they usually do with him), but for now he remains the evil bigbad.

With this development i don't want Spike anywhere near season8 or 9. It seems pretty clear now that Buffy made her choice, i don't see any need for Spike to come back and be second fiddle again for the 100th time. Spike was freaking out when Buffy kissed Angel in season 7. You can just imagen what them fu"king would do to him, he would go beserk.

No i don't really mind that Buffy has chosen. I am a bit peeved of being led on for three years that there was hope for spuffy while it now seems that there never really was any. But the thing i'm mostly angry about is the appearent destruction of Buffy as a female icon. Shipping doesn't compare in anyway to that.
I don't like this direction. At all. Buffy and Angel are dark enough for me as they are. This is more going into a character destroying territory. For both of them.
If Buffy goes dark post coitus then it is a nice role reversal...and if Angel sends her to hell...well then it's kinda poetic...or unimaginative vengeance...i never saw the difference!!
Most fans were angered,disturbed,puzzeled by issue33's ending.


That wasn't my read on the fandom at all, at least not "angry". I myself would probably fall in the "puzzled" camp, not because Buffy and Angel were back together, but because the situation itself was so weird. And seemed to happen so fast. Neither character seemed to be themselves, and there was speculation that either the writing didn't get their personalities quite right, or that they were under the effect of a spell or something.
Wow, oh wow that panel! I'm in the happy camp too. It's a great development storyline wise. I'm going to enjoy the goodness while it lasts until Joss brings the pain, lol. And for me, what's going on now in no way ruins her female icon status.
I'm happy with the development as well, things are getting very interesting again after a somewhat boring and messy 2009.
I'm thrilled with the upcoming developments and I love the interview. I love how Meltzer nailed the fandom reaction. Some will love it, some will hate it.

SOOOO can't wait for this. Gah.

-Luc
They're going to be pleasured by others while having a political discussion?


Bwah! I burst out laughing when I read that. Thanks, The Dark Shape.

Oh, and color me worried about Buffy's stance as a feminist icon. Sometimes a dark story offers great drama at too high a price. Buffy losing that? Yeah, not happy.


ETA: Vergil, YES. I'm right there with you. I'm more worried about what this is doing to Buffy's character. Sigh.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-04-06 00:18 ]
The biggest boards(Slayalive,Buffyforums,ect) were filled with angry,disturbed,confused fans.


And they were also filled with people who were quite happy with the developments. You're projecting your feelings on to everyone. My read is that it was a pretty solid 50/50 split.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-06 00:18 ]
Want to put another happy vote out there! Yes, there are questions left to be answered. Yes, Angel still has some 'splaining to do. I'm sure all of that will come in the next couple of issues. In the mean time, it's Them F&%#ing!
Yes, the 'splaining to do. Yeah, that. Would've been preferable if it had occured before Them F&%#ing.

I don't think I can adequately express how preferable that would be.
You know that moment of clarity that sometimes comes after sex? Imagine a particularly vigorous Angel/Buffy session. A few seconds of calm, then...

"YOU KILLED 206 OF MY GIRLS, YOU MOTHER&%$#ER!"
Heck, I figure if Buffy didn't lose her feminist stance in season 6 and 7, this won't do it. Because this is no where near that level of dysfunction, imo.

I think the potential for awesome here is great and I say that as someone who views Buffy as her favorite character ever. Plus, I love how Meltzer talks about how he and Joss (and everyone involved) are sensitive to the characters, relationships and readers. I guess in this one instance I have more faith in them than others. Which is odd for me cause it's Joss - the man who brings the pain better than anyone I've ever known.

-Luc

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-04-06 00:27 ]
No need to sign your posts, Imblack21.

The fan reactions always seem really mixed to me. I suspect if there was one of those highly scientific internet polls it'd be all over the place.

Buffy and Angel are going to play Spartacus: Blood and Sand. (Not the fighting bits).

I dunno it IS Buffy and Angel. Unless you mean they kinda did that part already in #33.
I'm with Vampmogs in reading this as all very dark -- which makes me find the reaction of half the fandom disturbing, to say the least. Angel left Faith behind crumpled, bleeding and unconscious; Buffy is reeling from the news of 206 of her girls brutally butchered. And it's all about the Big Happy Sonic Boom? I suppose Forever would have been better if the curse weren't a problem and Buffy and Angel could have sonic boomed on Joyce's grave rather than sit there and offer each other comfort.

Really puzzled. People see things so differently. I thought Forever was nice. To see this as happy romantic strikes me as bizarre.
The fan reactions always seem really mixed to me. I suspect if there was one of those highly scientific internet polls it'd be all over the place.

I agree, I think Meltzer has quite the right temperature of the general fandom. This board and many others are quite split into "loving" and "hating".

-Luc
I´m weird. I´ll let them tell the whole story first.
I'm totally down with seeing how the story goes. The reaction that puzzles me is "ooh, hot sex, yay it's about time".
You know that moment of clarity that sometimes comes after sex? Imagine a particularly vigorous Angel/Buffy session. A few seconds of calm, then...

"YOU KILLED 206 OF MY GIRLS, YOU MOTHER&%$#ER!"


Okay, making me die laughing is nice in theory... ;-)

No need to sign your posts, Imblack21


Heh. Sorry. Habit. ;-)

I´m weird. I´ll let them tell the whole story first.

I'm weird too then. Cause I'm right there with you.

I'm totally down with seeing how the story goes. The reaction that puzzles me is "ooh, hot sex, yay it's about time".

But not unusual for this or any fandom. There were plenty of people who had that reaction when Buffy and Spike had sex.

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-04-06 00:32 ]
Yeah that's a good point lmblack21...season 6 and 7 did destroy her for a while...like all the self hate S&M sex and the I can forgive you for trying to rape me cause you're really sorry was a world of worse compared to hooking up with your ex who has similar weirdnesses to you...also...she was really whiney back then!!
Okay, wow. Whiny? We should all be so stoic and forebearing as Buffy considering the hell she's gone through. Or was that sarcasm? 'Cause I can get behind it if you were mocking the stance that Buffy was whiny in those seasons.
also...she was really whiney back then!!

I think she was just so sad back then. I never got whiny from her. I felt so bad for her my heart nearly broke every episode.
As a Spike fan who remembers many arguments of the past I find it almost ironic to see people saying that "the appearent destruction of Buffy as a female icon" is being caused by her willingly sleeping with a mass murderer.
To see this as happy romantic strikes me as bizarre.


Exactly. Something is not right with the good ship Buffy right about now.

Also is it just me, or does the whole 'Them F&%#ing' title come across as incredibly crass? I mean when did Buffyverse humour become this infantile?
No i was serious...i mean i get the whole oh i'm pissed my friends dragged me out of heaven bit...makes sense...but like they thought they were helping her...big mistake and let's face it, it's not easy to get over...but at the same time move on!! harsh assessment yeah...but when she got demoted in season 7 in favour of faith she went and sulked about it til she could save the day! When they tried to kill spike cause they couldn't trust him(yeah i wouldn't either) she basically shut everyone out to the detriment of the mission and calling it her effort to carry on the mission! She was deeply selfish and whiny during that phase!! Sorry!
Okay - A) I agree with the fact of the 50/50 statement. But I, myself, was not overwhelmed with the sight of replies of anger and disturbed on slayalive. and B) It doesn't matter how long you have been watching or surfing the web, I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. C) Buffy didn't loose her fan following the FIRST TIME she had sex with a "massmurdering psychopath", because if you haven't forgotten he was a massmurdering psychopath since the show's beginning and yet the fans were rushing in, for him and Buffy. And no one said anything about Bangles either, or the fact that the mistake she would be making would be "simple". I think her fan's aren't going to freak more so the second time around based on the pure fact of what he means to her.

PS - I'm pretty sure Spike is suppose to rear his ugly head sometime in this, at least that is what I thought. Shipping aside.
sueworld2003, there's been a lot of infantile humor along the way in this Verse. Off the top of my head, Xander's Master-bater comment in Buffy vs. Dracula. "Them F&%#ing" is sort of an is what it is kind of thing to me, lol.

And lmblack21, I have to agree with you. There were a lot of people back in season 6 that were questioning her female iconic status. It wasn't a good sexually liberating storyline for her back then. What's currently going on doesn't tarnish her to me. Although her image wasn't tarnished for me back then either.

[ edited by maje on 2010-04-06 00:48 ]
As a Spike fan who remembers many arguments of the past I find it almost ironic to see people saying that "the appearent destruction of Buffy as a female icon" is being caused by her willingly sleeping with a mass murderer.

I find that very ironic too. ;-)

Also is it just me, or does the whole 'Them F&%#ing' title come across as incredibly crass? I mean when did Buffyverse humour become this infantile?

They've played this kind of crass humor for a long time, are you kidding? "What else would I want to pump you for?" "That's probably the best thing I've ever had in my mouth", etc, etc, etc...
PS - I'm pretty sure Spike is suppose to rear his ugly head sometime in this, at least that is what I thought. Shipping aside.


If you mean Spikes character is meant to make an appearance at some point, then, yes, he is.....
sueworld2003, they were limited in tv on what kind of humor they could use. But I imagine without the network arm it would've got pretty R-rated comedy. Just look at Dr.Horrible, "the hammer is my penis". Which is still hillarious by the way.
I think she was just so sad back then. I never got whiny from her.


I think she was tiresome back then. Speech after tedious speech about "sacrifice" until I just started tuning her out. As for this: can't judge until I see the issue obviously. But judging based on the end of last issue and this preview panel: it looks like Buffy is perfectly in character to me. Having sex with the guy who killed a bunch of her Slayers while she makes her friends, who fought a war against this guy, wait outside as if they're an afterthought? Yep, sure seems like season seven Buffy to me. Hoping I'll be proved wrong. Don't think I will be. And I wish someone from a non-comic book site would interview Meltzer so he could get the perspective of a reader who doesn't think his constant comic book in-jokes are just the bestest thing ever.
"the hammer is my penis". Which is still hilarious by the way. .


I'll just have to take your word for that then as I'm afraid I've never seen it. *g*

And I wish someone from a non-comic book site would interview Meltzer so he could get the perspective of a reader who doesn't think his constant comic book in-jokes are just the bestest thing ever.


Oh hell, ditto!

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-04-06 00:49 ]
I'm pretty sure Spike is suppose to rear his ugly head sometime in this, at least that is what I thought. Shipping aside.

I would appreciate it greatly if this thread doesn't become different shipper factions sniping at one another. Put the shipping aside for real.
I can honestly say that this is the first time I've been hyped about the buffyverse since the show ended. Yeah I've been buying the TPBs(stoppped buying individual issues after #3 cause its better to read them all together) but i didn't feel the same excitement that I did when watching the show. I like this storyline turn cause its pumped some adrenaline into the fandom. Made me care again.

[ edited by eddy on 2010-04-06 00:59 ]
Here's the thing; I am sure that in the end, Angel will have a very good reason for doing what he did, one that will make sense, even if his tactics do not. Coming after the end of Angel S5, where he had to go fight the dragon knowing that he could never end evil in the world, whatever the reason he is doing what he is doing will "make sense." Which no one should take solace thinking that means I like where this is going. I cannot fathom Joss throwing them together sexually, since Buffy has not seen Angel in years and that would be utterly stupid on her part- and on his, since he cannot be sure what might happen. Given they already showed us the page here, I cannot believe it means what it appears to mean. So I am waiting, though my take on this entire series is one of fatigue and ennui about it. I care less and less and Joss seems hellbent on deconstructing everything he has built over the years; this seems to be the fear I think I hear others expressing, such as Vergil (Sorry if I read you wrong). I will not speak for the fandom, since I and no one else here can know what it thinks, but for myself, this has been a significant downer of a comic run.
Well, such everyone has pretty much said everything already I'm just gonna keep it simple and say "HATE". Yup.
LEt me rpeface by saying CS Lewis once wrote about how most of us have seen or even been in a group (school, fofice, regiment,e tc.) where "the tone is bad." So, for soemone in that group, just sayign you were being normal is no defense against any charges.

So, as a shipper, I should be ecstatic. But I can't be. See above.
Well, Meltzer was right about one thing - this arc is certainly dividing the fans.

My two cents: I agree with what others have said about this heading in a very dark, very disturbing direction. Even when my imagination runs wild, I can't think of a reasonable explanation for Angel acting the way he has. And Buffy's willingness to have sex with him (probably) is a very dark twist - darker, I would say than her with Spike in S6.


All that said, the fact that I can't imagine what is going to happen mixed with my almost absolute trust in Joss makes me ravenous for more. What's more fun than speculation and being surprised? Same thing draws me to Breaking Bad.
I really hope this Buffy/Angel thing doesn't last long. They were exhaustingly melodramatic when they were together...
I wish I would stop looking at these. Made me a little queasy. The internet circles I mostly inhabit are very unhappy with the whole thing, so it's quite strange for me to read Meltzers opinion. This quote: "Looking back on it, what I am amazed by — and I say this with nothing but love — is just how much people want to see these characters together." is very confusing to me. As is the quote about Joss being sensitive. How is them f@$#ing in any way sensitive when such a large part of the fandom is upset by it? It's just ew!
put me in the "love it" group. I guess we're being divided into very clear groups? This is cool and so interesting. I prefer story over ship and the backstory leading up to this so far is twisted. We haven't seen something this twisted since....oh..when Buffy slept with Spike (another mass murderer) for months in season 6. It was also a very interesting time! Surprised more Spuffy fans aren't more intrigued by this current plotline considering that. Ironic, no?

Point is: "They're F&%#ing!" It's twisted, intriguing and an all around good time. I say roll with it!
At least the comics are giving us something to talk about, unlike most of 2009. Was there a lot to say when it came to the PoP arc? Or the one shot after that? And Buffy sleeping with Spike was twisted as well. It's like people are forgetting and are surprised by Buffy's actions.
I also love it. I haven't been this excited in the Buffyverse in years.

I wonder if Joss still loves Ho-Ho's!
I'm still on the wait-and-see train.

But that's quite the image.
Count me in the love it group. I have not been this worked up (pardon the pun) since Buffy slept with Satsu. Buffy's sex life has always been a source of controversy and I love it. Her sleeping with Angel does not strike me as out of character. Does that make me disturbed? She forgave him after he killed Jenny and tortured Giles. She slept with Spike and he killed two Slayers! Yes, Angel has gone overboard with the badness but I trust that Joss is not going to make his Twilightness a throwaway situation. Perhaps this is about Buffy going dark. All the other supers have done dark why not her?
from sueworld:

"Exactly. Something is not right with the good ship Buffy right about now."

"Also is it just me, or does the whole 'Them F&%#ing' title come across as incredibly crass? I mean when did Buffyverse humour become this infantile?
sueworld2003 | April 06, 00:36 CET"
------------------------------------------------------

Crass, vulgar, disturbing - if this is the writer's idea of sensitivity for the characters - I sure would hate to see him not being "sensitive."

Reality check - this is their young woman primary character that was sexually using another male and who perpetrated a brutal attack on him and then just left him in that alley. Just where is he getting all this need to be sensitive to the character and their love. Hell, Buffy tried to sacrifice Faith, who with full premeditation planned to have Faith drained as a sacrifice to Angel's cure.

I personally can't stand the idea that we are going to have yet another "clean-up treatment" for Angel yet again. How many times is he going to be allowed to kill people and get the Free Get Out of Jail Card? Flawed Heroes I understand, but Angel's path of redemption he can do no wrong is now going into crazyland.

[ edited by nmcil on 2010-04-06 04:18 ]
Wow, such strong negative reactions, aside from one place that I visit, which has some vocal Spuffy and Bander fans, the reaction has been positive. Different strokes and all that but I love this twist. Angel just brings something back to Buffy that's been missing for a long time, imhv.

I have always viewed Angel as a hero, even when making choices that were incredibly hard for him to make. I never saw a "clean up treatment" for *this* character but I sure did another, but I digress. It goes without saying that the fans of Buffy and Spike or Buffy and Xander, would not appreciate this arc. I think that's why the PR department have went out of their way to issue so many warnings. Which is really kinda nice and respectful in itself, imo.
I feel nauseous. Or is that nauseated? I can never tell the difference.
I'm loving the apparent darkness and the wrongness ("apparent," given that there's so much we have no clue about here). And I loved S6 too.
You could just say that you are suffering from nausea, Redeem. Hands you a bucket and wet wash cloth.
I just feel weird about exposed skin in that image. Its hot, but not sure we should be watching what is going down. If this were a scene on the show I'd be resolutely not looking at the screen. It'd be like walking in on your sister or something.
I never saw a "clean up treatment" for *this* character

O_O

You didn't? Wow, we really must not have been watching the same two series.
I really can't wait for the season to be over, so that the speculation can be over. I say this with no criticism for all those doing the guessing--I'm doing it too. But ye gods, frustrating having to wait.

One person's "clean up treatment" is another person's "atonement," but, in the case of Angel, I tend toward the former, with the caveat that I think his arc is very well written and deliberately much darker than the surface. Every single major Buffyverse character has done some terrible things and in almost all cases there are some that they haven't fully owned up to--such is the 'verse, and, indeed, life. But Angel's Twilight acts are very extreme, and I am concerned how they'll be handled. I don't see how fans of the character (and IDW) can be left satisfied in a way that also satisfies me.

As for teh sex: I am not quite sure what they're doing. I mean Meltzer & Whedon, not B&A where not all that much is left to the imagination.

Also note: re: season six. There is a difference between sleeping with someone who murdered many people, and sleeping with someone who just moments ago murdered a bunch of people you are supposed to be protecting, and has been making your life miserable for the past year. Just sayin'.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-04-06 05:37 ]
I'm a fan of the character, William, and I'm not afraid for Angel's long term status. I am pretty darn excited about seeing this all unfold and what all these changes will mean by the end.

Memomegirl..care to elaborate? Without citing every thing that Angelus did.
I just want to see where this is all going.Everything.We've got six more issues after Wed. and the Riley one-shot.Wish we didn't have the long break after #35 though.
I'm not talking about Angelus, cheryl. I'm talking about *Angel*. I don't see how you can say any of his morally dubious actions in LA haven't been 'cleaned up' or simply brushed aside as if they were of no consequence.

There is a difference between sleeping with someone who murdered many people, and sleeping with someone who just moments ago murdered a bunch of people you are supposed to be protecting, and has been making your life miserable for the past year. Just sayin'.

Ditto.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2010-04-06 05:48 ]
I just can't see how Angel won't have a good reason for doing what he has done. He's a leading character that Joss and Co make money off of. (Unless they plan to kill him which could be interesting although kind of already done). It's that "knowledge" which allows me to enjoy this what ever little "real" Buffy&Angel that we are given. I will cry like a banshee when it all falls apart though. I'm used to that being a Joss fan. I just hope it doesn't lead to a Dawn, Willow, Xander or Giles death.
Also note: re: season six. There is a difference between sleeping with someone who murdered many people, and sleeping with someone who just moments ago murdered a bunch of people you are supposed to be protecting, and has been making your life miserable for the past year. Just sayin'.

LMAO. There is? So it's a matter of how soon you sleep with a murderer that makes one worse than the other?

Also, point of clarification, Angel himself said, "I didn't kill anybody." Juxtapose that next to Spike joking about the people he'd killed while he and Buffy were post-coitus and the two of them LAUGHING about it.

And I could go on about how Spike had been making Buffy's life miserable for years prior to her sleeping with him and how he continued to do so WHILE they were sleeping together but that would just further a descent into shipper discussions.

So instead I will simply say that EVERYONE involved has told us we do NOT have all the information we need, that Angel as Twilight is not the biggest reveal to come and even hinted/implied that Angel is NOT the bad guy. Hell, even Meltzer has "bad guy" in quotes, strongly hinting that he is NOT, in fact, a bad guy.

Which is why so many of us feel this is not as bad as the sexual relationship Buffy had with Spike who WAS an unrepentant mass murderer at the time of her sexual relationship with him. That and because we are happy to wait and see BEFORE we judge. Which some people are clearly not willing to do. And that's cool cause different strokes and all but...like you said.....just saying. ;-)
I think we're all kinda being played with here. They have been sooo secretive about everything, even the issue's are just full of never-ending questions and no answers. We have been given NOTHING so far, so why would they all be suddenly like, "yep, this is whats happenin next ish." I think there about to Plan B us.
I guess I agree with Lucinda here, Menomegirl. As far as behavior for Buffy, this is way more in character than some of the things that came before, imo.

I don't know why people aren't more willing to wait this out and give Angel, a hero by his own right, the benefit of the doubt. I am and that was even before we were told he didn't kill her slayers, etc..

You could be right, Kaan. I LOVE Joss's twists and turns, I can't wait to see what it is.
Well, I'm willing to let the story go on--I didn't mean to suggest I wasn't going to read the next issues. I know there's more to the story. I should clarify what I meant by my comparison. Time does change the story to an extent morally, but most of all it changes them pragmatically. Angel still represents a clear-and-present danger which from Buffy's perspective and to her knowledge, Spike didn't. Buffy did not sleep with Spike when he was killing people, or, if you want, ordering people to be killed in battles as part of a grander scheme, which is the way Angel's argument comes across in #34. Buffy has to accept with Angel that he is telling the truth, when evidence is stacked against Angel.

The evidence is that he was commanding (at least advising) an opposing army during a war waged against Buffy's people, and helped create a situation where slayers were hated. Buffy personally took charge of the army of slayers. Twilight also came in and personally beat Buffy up and injured Satsu (in "A Beautiful Sunset"). These aren't unforgivable and Angel might have very good reasons for them. The question is: has Buffy been given any information to decide, reasonably, that she should trust Angel, against all the evidence? That it's okay that Angel deceived her for months (how long is this in comic time?), "pushed" her to become a new woman, etc.? I would say, based on the few lines of dialogue Angel and Buffy have together, "no," and I think it's very unhealthy for Buffy to go for the fracking.

Now, compare with Spike. Spike had tried to beat up/kill Buffy before, but times changed: Spike helped Buffy, protected Dawn, etc., and the "Smashed" fighting was a response to Buffy hitting him. He had been spending the past few months as the only person Buffy could talk to because of her trauma. I think that sleeping with an unrepentant mass murderer, a serial killer in prison if you want, is wrong, but Angel is very potentially a serial killer on the loose, and that's problematic in a whole different set of ways.

P.S. I'm not saying season six B/S is healthy! There are big problems with Buffy laughing about Spike killing an interior decorator. But the bottom line is there was a 0% chance that Spike would go out and kill an interior decorator at that point. (Buffy does break up with him after his demon egg wheeling-and-dealing comes to light.) The chance that the war that Twilight apparently started would kill more slayers is about 99%.

This isn't about shipping, btw. I'm actually not a shipper. (Well, I might ship Giles/Anya because of "Tabula Rasa" and "Grave," but that's neither here nor there.) I'm just comparing the two stories and what I see as the fundamental differences.

P.P.S. Angel is a hero in his own right, in many respects. But I think he's more interesting as an anti-hero, bordering on a villain. Hence my hope that Angel won't be proven 100% right at the comics' end.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-04-06 06:31 ]
cheryl, I am in the wait-and-see club. But I'm also not wearing rose-colored glasses when it comes to the character of Angel; I've always viewed him as an anti-hero and nothing will change my mind.
Buffy did not sleep with Spike when he was killing people

Except the first time they had sex was right after he TRIED to kill someone and was stopped only because of the chip. But you're right that Buffy didn't know about it.

But the bottom line is there was a 0% chance that Spike would go out and kill an interior decorator at that point.

But again, only because of the chip. We've seen, in the past, how dangerous he can be even chipped - season 4 and 5 proved that, and season 6 proved it again with the attempted rape of Buffy and the demon eggs.

Angel has said (and this was confirmed by someone - can't recall off the top of my head if that was Jeanty or Allie) that he was trying to stop it from being so much worse. The story hasn't told us why it was this way and I would say it's probably safe to assume that Angel won't be absolved 100% nor be proven 100% right OR wrong.

I do hope that the story will continue to portray him as the hero I've always viewed him as just as I hope that for Buffy. I don't think it's Joss' intention to destroy either as a hero. But I also didn't STOP seeing her as heroic in season 6, so there's that.

But I appreciate you clarifying your thoughts on the matter.

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-04-06 06:46 ]
lmblack21:

THANK YOU! You expressed my thoughts so much better than I could. Like you said, we do not know what the World-with-no-Shrimp is going on! It is almost pathologically naive to assume that Buffy was suddenly struck by nostalgia for Angel and decided to have sex with him.

Also, I feel like situational ethics has suddenly overrun this message board. For example: when Buffy sleeps with Spike, he was *currently* a mass murderer, unrepentant, and quite literally evil. He just happened to be infatuated with a piece of tail.

Now, Buffy with Angel is a big black box. We don't know if they sleep together, what Angel has done, why he has done it, or anything! Without any explanation, it's impossible to pass judgment on the character of Buffy.

Also, do we really think that Joss Whedon is going to turn his girl into Miss Abused Housewife in the long run? Even if it goes that direction, this is Buffy we're talking about! It makes me sick that people are not even giving the story its chance to play out!

And, yeah, I apologize for getting emotional, but I care about these characters, and I trust in Joss, and I reaaaalllly believe that we don't know anything yet.
Thanks William and Menomegirl for the answers.

William, I guess I haven't taken it at face value that we aren't going to get a conversation before Buffy does more than just kiss him, unless we were meant to take Willows declaration seriously, which I guess I really didn't. The way I understand to this point, which I will admit, I don't have a lot to go on, is that Angel actually stepped in the reduce the damage to Buffy and her army. We will see how this plays out I guess.

I'd also disagree that Buffy having a sexual relationship with Spike was harmless or less evil than Buffy falling into Angel's arms now , Spike had pitted against the gang for the entire series run practically and the eggs proved that he could be pretty evil despite the chip. Before people rush in and go off the deep end, I don't think he stayed evil after he got a soul, IDW comics withstanding. It's just a difference in perspective and I don't mind admitting that I am partial to Angel.

I also like Angelus a lot but I prefer Angel as the selfless hero who makes the hard choices with the occasional lapse into humanity and selfishness.

Menomegirl...I'm not trying to change your mind and I'm glad that you are waiting to see. I think everyone will enjoy this before it's over.
Yeah, I made sure to point out about what Buffy knew. She didn't know about the girl Dru killed for Spike in "Crush," either.

I don't actually disagree with what you're saying in your reply, lmblack21. Again, my concern about the B/A in the issue is less about whether what Angel did was actually right or wrong, and more about what Buffy knows and the decisions she makes from her p.o.v. And obviously there's still more story to be told there.

And thanks, I'm glad I came across more clearly.

cheryl: To be fair, I don't consider Buffy evil for sleeping with anyone. I think it's a matter of poor judgment in both cases, but I think the immediate consequences of sleeping with/approving of Angel to people around her could be much worse. This is just based on the information that we--and, importantly, Buffy--have thus far. No criticism of different perspectives intended.

And so far, I'm taking Willow's comment at face value. But that doesn't mean anything in the long run, and there are lots and lots of ways this story could go.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-04-06 06:55 ]
Wow, it's like Fandom's fallen into some kind of time warp and gone back in time ten years. Bit like Buffy's character at the moment.

Oh well. There's always the DVD's to remind me of how great the show used to be. *g*
Perhaps, but I wasn't in fandom ten years ago :P
WilliamTheB: Thanks for that last comment. I think you also summed up my concern that we as fans, with very limited knowledge, do not understand what and why Angel has done what he has done. The question of what Buffy knows is now a very interesting one!
I don't actually disagree with what you're saying in your reply, lmblack21. Again, my concern about the B/A in the issue is less about whether what Angel did was actually right or wrong, and more about what Buffy knows and the decisions she makes from her p.o.v. And obviously there's still more story to be told there.


Absolutely but as we all know, the fallout always comes after the sex - *especially* with Buffy/Angel. I mean, hello Surprise/Innocence and IWRY! (And that's not including fallout after the reunion sex between Tara/Willow! And the fallout from the B/S sex sessions.)

So fallout is coming, I just don't think it's going to be in a way that will make Buffy and Angel black hats. I'd even say badness is coming but at the end, there will be light...because that's also Joss. ;-)

Also, I feel like situational ethics has suddenly overrun this message board.

I know, right? ;-)

Now, Buffy with Angel is a big black box. We don't know if they sleep together, what Angel has done, why he has done it, or anything! Without any explanation, it's impossible to pass judgment on the character of Buffy.

Perfectly stated, especially the last statement. *g*

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-04-06 07:10 ]
Illyria: "Your leader has been corrupted. It always begins the same. A ruler turns a blind eye to battles from which he cannot gain...As his strength increases so does the separation between him and his followers..."

And of course, we were proven wrong in NFA. Just food for thought. Illyria's words seemed pretty wise at the time...
Sorry, who were proven wrong in NFA? (This isn't snarky, I am genuinely not sure what believe was disproven.)
Wow, has the guy seen the same show, I have? Because it really doesn't sound like it.

I don't think, I'll buy the rest of the book, if the series means to substitute feminism with twilight (the meyer variety).
I just wanted to say I really have enjoyed reading your posts, WilliamTheB. You’ve articulated yourself very well and I agree with pretty much all of what you’ve said. It’s funny people bring up the interior decorator joke in Dead Things because that used to be Buffy’s worst moment for me, I was so disappointed with her in that scene, but I think fracking Twangel will probably easily surpass that now.

I agree that we don’t know the full story yet and Angel has two more issues to explain himself better, but the point is Buffy still jumped his bones *before* hearing that explanation fully, which is a bad sign.

I’ve went into this in more detail elsewhere but I’m not seeing anything in the text or covers that portrays this as a good thing. The Twilight TPB cover has Angel putting a stake to Buffy’s heart, the issue #35 cover has Buffy crumbling under the weight of her friends and Angel, and Jeanty’s variant shows her segregated from the Scoobies and they all look massively pissed off with her. Allie also said we should be worried about Buffy in his Feb Q/A, Angel refers to the glow as "unholy", and I don’t think it’s very ‘Joss’ to portray this as a good thing. I’m really not worried at all that they're trying to sell this as a positive (Buffy's actions, not the story) and I'll always trust what the text is telling me over interviews, anyway. Colour me intrigued.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-04-06 10:45 ]
Heck, it seems like old times with the discussion on here! Whatever side of the fence you're on, its clear Joss & the gang knew what they were doing when they started this crazy arc.

What's interesting to me is the 'debate' over whether Buffy sleeping with mass killer Spike in S6 is worse than her sleeping with mass killer Angel. On this particular point (character differences aside), arent they pretty much similar shades of grey? (This said as someone completely devoted to the Spike character and who loved B/S). I dont hate on Buffy for the insane choices she's making at the moment with Twangel, or for any choices she's made in past Seasons. I believe the fallout is going to be spectacularly awful, as is Joss's way.
For me, the best thing about BTVS is that none of the characters are black and white, all good or all evil, even Buffy herself. They are always evolving, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad.

I even kind of understand the need for Joss to re-visit the whole Buffy/Angel thing again, even though the cynic in me would suggest that they want to stir up the fanships again to a fine frenzy (which seems to be working). My only hope is that whatever happens Buffy/Angel wise, this is it. Them done, either way, for better or for worse. I can't be doing with a Season 9 full of B/A angst again. They need to fish or cut bait with these two. Personally, I felt they were done with each other several Seasons ago, and I enjoyed watching each of them move on with various characters. Buffy's 'Dawson' comment too Angel in Chosen pretty much summed them up for me, but that's just my OP.

I do sometimes feel that the comic verse BTVS is a tad OTT, but I suppose that's the beauty of comics. The writers can pretty much get away with anything they want and take the characters in directions they, perhaps, wouldnt have gotten away with on TV. I take the comic-world BTVS as an entertaining side-arm of the show, but not gospel and not what I would necessarily wanted to see had they done a Season 8 and Season 6 of Buffy & Angel. So I'll enjoy the ride and look forward seeing how they deal with the consequences of Twangel/Buffy, them frakking, and to the return of Spike!
What's interesting to me is the 'debate' over whether Buffy sleeping with mass killer Spike in S6 is worse than her sleeping with mass killer Angel. On this particular point (character differences aside), arent they pretty much similar shades of grey?

No, i don't think that they are the same. It would be the same if Buffy jumped Caleb's bones after he had just killed and hurt her friends,potentials in season 7. Or say in season 2 if Angelus had killed Joyce or one of Buffy's friends and Buffy says to hell with it and just boned him for all times sake.

Soulles Spike was also not the bigbad of season6, he had helped Buffy,the scoobies plenty of times in season 5 and 6. And even then he was still chipped but most importanly we were given a reason why Buffy started to sleep with him. Wanting to feel something, being ripped out of heaven,ect. She has no such excuse now. At the very least she felt disconnected this season, still Willow but more importantly Xander have supported her this whole season and have been her rock.
Having sex with the evil monster because one of your best friends rejected you in what to me appeared the most gentlest of ways isn't a valid reason. Twilight is the evil big bad this season, he's brought nothing but pain and misery to Buffy's doorstep. And now as if Buffy is nothing more then a simple reward, he gets to f"ck her. And yes it's crass,rude and disrespectful but that's exaclty how they are portraying it.

And i have no clue were Brad is getting this "all wanted Buffy and Angel togheter" idea. Last time i checked, all other fans(fans of characters,other ships,the show itself) far outnumber bangel fans, it's not even a contest.
Wow, has the guy seen the same show, I have? Because it really doesn't sound like it.

I don't think, I'll buy the rest of the book, if the series means to substitute feminism with twilight (the meyer variety).

I agree Changeling, i'll make my final deciscion with issue 34. But as it stands now, i'll only watch season 1-7 with my daughter when she's older. But no way am i going to let her read season8 until she's old enough not to be influenced by it in a negative manner which i feel season 8 is as far as the messages that are being given by it. Which is a real shame, the Buffy show truelly was one of a kind. Nowadays every other show is trying to copy Meyer's formula, i didn't expect Buffy to be one of them.

[ edited by Vergil on 2010-04-06 10:24 ]
NICE post shazzam - and I am right there with you on the "whatever happens Buffy/Angel wise, this is it." Be done with it, to me it's just feels like a story that had already happened and passed on.

I'm tired of all the Shipper POV heated discussions - each viewer and reader has a right to bring their own interpretations and perspectives to the series. At the end of the day, it was not the love relationships that made the series
connect so powerfully with the viewers and now the readers.

I love a post that I read on another board - wish I remembered it exactly, but the gist is:

It's been years, get over it!
Well said, Vergil. I completely agree. I am not a Bangel or Spuffy shipper, I am more like a fan of Buffy's character. Even understanding Joss' need to invent new and new kinds of pain, this looks like going too far.

I also agree with you about the overall assessment of Season 8.
Thank you Lince, frankly i think those are the fans that will be hit the hardest. Those that view Buffy as a female/feminist icon. For them the Buffy character transcends shipping and such. It's not about who she's with, it's who and what she is as a character.

I agree, that Joss's way, no story is worth telling if there's no pain involved. The thing is it's starting to make the story unrealistic in that Buffy isn't allowed a shred of happyness, not with her lovelife,slaying,friends and family,ect. It is just as unrealistic as having the perfect happy life. Real life can be painful,messy,depressing but it also has happyness,light,pure joy,ect otherwise there is nothing really left to fight for. Just like how fans were starting to expect that whenever a couple are happy together tragedy will strike, which is what people are expecting now with Dawn/Xander.

edit:Yay,100th post.

[ edited by Vergil on 2010-04-06 10:55 ]
Yay 100th post!

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2010-04-06 11:21 ]
I believe there's no such thing as going too far when it comes to pain.

[ edited by gossi on 2010-04-06 11:32 ]
Oh I dunno. IMO If a writer pulls that card out too often they're in danger of having their audience get hardened to it and thus having it loose it's impact somewhat.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-04-06 11:37 ]
Also thanks 5x5 and vampmongs! It's nice to get a shout out now and again. :)

I'm with you vampmongs--the story seems to me to be showing that this (teh sex) is Not a Good Thing. The PR, Meltzer's interview, Scott Allie's statements...they're all playing up the B/A-ness, and how fans want to see them together, but ultimately the interviews aren't the story.

I've talked about why I didn't think this and B/S s6 are really comparable, but, let's throw it out there: the end of OMWF seems to me to be one of the biggest inspirations on the final panel here. And it's played as a happy ending with the rising music, and the rising...music, but it's also melancholy, sad, Buffy and Spike kissing against a deliberately fake backdrop and the Scoobies singing plaintively "Where do we go from here?" There are fans who cheered and fans who wanted to give up on the show but I think the story was basically telling us to have MIXED FEELINGS. Joss likes to do that. We're all going insane over this because he wanted to create controversy and stir things up. I feel still like we won't know until the end of the arc how we're supposed to feel about the whole thing.

(Plus, OMWF is to musicals as the "Twilight" arc is to comic books, what with the fourth-wall breaking and the overloading on tropes.)
I thought overall Buffy had been far more ‘upbeat’ this season than she has been since at least S5. She’s certainly been allowed to laugh, smile, and crack jokes with her friends. I agree that overall she’s sadder than most people and feels disconnected from those around her -- “Where the army, she’s the general, and that’s never going to change” -- but she’s a vampire slayer so I don’t think it’s ‘unrealistic’ because we have nothing really to compare it too. Given all the crap she's been through over the years it'd be a little weird if she wasn't weighed down by it all. And Buffy forges strength and love through her pain so it’s kind of an essential part of her character, yeah?

I just don't really see how you can build to an exciting conclusion if there isn't any pain involved. I’d be all for a hopeful, optimistic ending (Chosen, Graduation Day, Prophecy Girl) but you have to have the pain to earn it first.

WilliamtheB, I'm with you vampmongs--the story seems to me to be showing that this (teh sex) is Not a Good Thing. The PR, Meltzer's interview, Scott Allie's statements...they're all playing up the B/A-ness, and how fans want to see them together, but ultimately the interviews aren't the story.

Yup I totally agree, and we actually have got interviews where they've hinted at this being a bad thing, anyway. I think they're playing up the story (obviously they're trying to get people interested in it) but I can't think of a single quote where they've said actually this is meant to be a positive moment for Buffy's character.

I would prefer it though if they cut back on advertising the shipping angle. MTV’s article was totally exploitive by including that panel. Jeanty’s marvellous issue #37 cover was a lovely reprieve from it all and was nice to remember that the point of S8 is not Buffy's love life. It's easy forget that given what the higher-ups, fans, and current story arc have been so focused on. But I'm sure this too will pass.

I've talked about why I didn't think this and B/S s6 are really comparable, but, let's throw it out there: the end of OMWF seems to me to be one of the biggest inspirations on the final panel here. And it's played as a happy ending with the rising music, and the rising...music, but it's also melancholy, sad, Buffy and Spike kissing against a deliberately fake backdrop and the Scoobies singing plaintively "Where do we go from here?" There are fans who cheered and fans who wanted to give up on the show but I think the story was basically telling us to have MIXED FEELINGS. Joss likes to do that. We're all going insane over this because he wanted to create controversy and stir things up. I feel still like we won't know until the end of the arc how we're supposed to feel about the whole thing.

Yeah, great example with OMWF and the B/S kiss at the end. I wasn't a part of online fandom at the time (kinda grateful for that as I imagine S6 would have been a tough slog, tougher even than S8) but I can imagine there'd have been very mixed reactions to that final scene and their relationship in general. I've been told by B/S shippers in the past that they wanted it to happen since as early on as Becoming, so I can't help but think a part of them would have been ecstatic seeing that relationship play out, even if on some level they understood it was meant to be an unhealthy development. And that first kiss between them was presented as a huge epic moment and I have no doubt Joss knew some fans would be squeeing with joy, and I’m sure other fans reacted to that in disgust.

With the latest developments in S8 I have no issues with B/A fans just being happy to see new developments for their favoured ship, that's perfectly understandable, but I'd hate to see all the complexity and darkness of this development 'whitewashed' because they’re having fun with it.

I hope I haven't stepped out anyone's toes, that really wasn't my intention. I just think OMWF really was a great example as the way it was presented was very similar and I’m sure people had conflicting feelings about it too. I’m not trying to slam either shipping group.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-04-06 12:12 ]
I'm interested to see how it all plays out but this whole "Angel is Twilight" storyline hasn't worked so far... for me anyway.
Vergil, thank you and I agree with your assesment a lot. I presume Meltzer doesn't know the fandom all that well, but I find it mildly insulting to be told that bangel is what a majority of fans is interested in.

It's just nor true an it diminishes all the fans who really love the show, in all it's complexity, not just the ships.

And the feminism is a very important part of that to me. There is very littleon tv that one could truly call so and even less in comic books. And to turn Buffy into a starry eyed teenager, to reduce her to Bella, it really feels bad.

I presume that this is a personal low that she will rise from during the next arc, but the way they described it in the interview was quite off putting. If all of this is seriously meant to be taken without a grain of salt when all things are told, the comic might very well end up best forgotten.
I believe there's no such thing as going too far when it comes to pain.


Drama has to be about pain, struggle, sacrifice. But there is such a thing as manipulation on the writer's part that can eventually make drama ring as false as the worse contortions of hysterical soap opera theatrics. I'm not referring to season 8 specifically here, it's simply the continuation of a pattern. If you look at all the romantic couples Joss has portrayed in the Buffyverse, the unremittingly negative consequences for literally all but one (Willow/Kennedy--a supreme irony in my eyes as the actresses had zero chemistry together and I never for a moment believed them as a couple) have become a cliche. With all the constant break-ups and betrayals and deaths, it all comes across as manufactured and unnatural after awhile. Like a writer is simply yanking us around from shocking reveal to shocking reveal, rather than charting a natural, believable course for real, three-dimensional people. Xander had a potential girlfriend in season 8? Well of course she had to die. Par for the course. And of course Buffy has to have sex with Angel now. Because even though the series said everythihg that needed to be said about these two (and then some, in fact) years ago, Buffy can't just move on like real people do; she has to go back to this well because it's shocking. Except it actually isn't shocking. It is, in fact, the most typical course Joss could have possibly taken, because he has done this time and time again.
I don't see people who are "happy with these developments" making so subtle a distinction as Vampmogs is giving them credit for, that they are just happy to see new and dramatic events centering around these two characters in each other's company. No, I see many who are happy for no reason more compelling than that the presented page exists, that the end of 8.33 exists, and that the title of 8.34 exists. There are many of whom who I personally think would consider obtaining this state of play a worthwhile trade even if it was the cause in fact of literal events such as those on the new 8.37 cover, too.
Buffy knows this is Angel. She always lets herself be in the moment with Angel and then returns to the real world. We just have to wait it out. But for me since I was a huge fan of Ats I can't see what Buffy's doing as bad. This is Angel. Now it's clearly not good for her to lose herself into Angel at this moment but I can understand it. There is a part of me that will enjoy the smooches+ because I adore the uber happiness the two bring each other. Though because this isn't the end happiness comes with pain. These two bring uber sadness too. And since Angel and Buffy comics are on different publishers I think we all know this isn't going to end happy ever after.
What people don't realize is that this panel isn't Angel. It's Andrew with a dark rinse.

[ edited by redeem147 on 2010-04-06 15:16 ]
It's not the different publishers that make it hard to hope for happy ending, really,it's Joss himself. We all know that when his characters get into ships, it usually ends badly LOL
Going off what Hellmouthguy said for a personal reflection: Is it sad that I'm actually kind of loving the way Willow/Kennedy is being handled in season eight? I say this to provoke discussion, not angry disagreement and reprisals. I feel a little like Wash in Serenity: "Can I make a suggestion that doesn't involve violence, or is this the wrong crowd?" So here's a random thought off the Angel subject: W/K is actually a fairly delicate story: Kennedy loves Willow, Willow...well, she's fond of Kennedy. And Willow simultaneously doesn't want to hurt the woman who loves her, and doesn't want to lose her, but also doesn't really need her, and flits in and out of Kennedy's arms. The thing that's interesting is that while Willow is lying to Kennedy and deceiving her, there are parts of the power dynamic that Kennedy, I think, accepts: Kennedy is a mega-brat who always got her way but she's basically accepted not-getting-any-gamy for someone who doesn't really love her back.

All this reflects fairly terribly on Willow, of course, and I think you could read into it some fairly uncomfortable gender things. But it's not presented as healthy, and the weird scary thing is that I almost feel like this barely-there relationship works for them. The lack of chemistry in season seven, in retrospect, doesn't really bother me, because I don't think there was any real attempt to portray them as being a forever thing. Kennedy is...she's proof that things don't have to be the end of the world.

I don't know where my mind goes sometimes. (I haven't slept in over 24 hours, and am highly caffeinated, so that might help.)
WilliamTheB, the lack of chemistry in season seven was, to me, simply a product of the interaction of the two actresses: Alyson Hannigan is a wonderful actress and I had no problems with Inari's performance either, but some people just don't have that "spark" together. Not every onscreen couple can be Mulder and Scully. I think Willow/Kennedy works better in the season eight comics because the actresses are no longer a factor. I think the fact that this is comics instead of live action is also why Buffy/Xander could have been presented as a possibility.

Some interesting points you've raised about Willow/Kennedy in season eight. Their relationship in season seven always struck me as a by-product of Willow deciding it had been almost a year since Tara had died and so she wanted to have sex again, while Kennedy, on the other hand, was fiercely loyal to and protective of Willow almost from the beginning.
Well, there are a lot of fans who disagree on the Buffy/Xander sparkage, and early season seven had a strong domestic vibe with the a mini family unit of the two and Dawn. To me, the last time I saw real sparkage between the actors was "I Was Made to Love You"...but then, there were still hints of it in their scenes in "Seeing Red," come to think of it. I didn't find any of the Buffy/Xander developments implausible, at any rate; I've had romances blindside me, and the amount of time Buffy and Xander spent together, with him the only male and relative power-equal around, made it believable for me. But your mileage may vary.

I think it's not so much Willow wanting to have sex again, as wanting to "move on," and those air quotes are intended. Kennedy is the first person Willow was with whom she didn't obsess over, in comparison to Oz, Xander (fluke-age), Tara, and even Buffy. That it's possible to have a relationship without defining herself by it is in many ways a forward step. Sex is part of that too. The execution is mixed, at any rate. (Many would argue "mixed" is too generous, but there are some S7 W/K moments I genuinely like.) I think that the lack of chemistry is unintentional, but because of the nature of the relationship as I see it and as it's been followed up on in season eight, it's not as damning (to me anyway) as if there were no chemistry between Aly and Amber or Seth.
First reaction: SQUEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!
Second reaction: *fear*
I love Buffy.

I hate the situation in which she's sleeping with a person who conspired against her and who caused many deaths - because he says to her that it's okay.

I'm baffled by people who think it's a positive development for Buffy.
I'm not referring to season 8 specifically here, it's simply the continuation of a pattern. If you look at all the romantic couples Joss has portrayed in the Buffyverse, the unremittingly negative consequences for literally all but one (Willow/Kennedy--a supreme irony in my eyes as the actresses had zero chemistry together and I never for a moment believed them as a couple) have become a cliche. With all the constant break-ups and betrayals and deaths, it all comes across as manufactured and unnatural after awhile. Like a writer is simply yanking us around from shocking reveal to shocking reveal, rather than charting a natural, believable course for real, three-dimensional people.


I've been saying this for years.
Moscow Watcher said:
I'm baffled by people who think it's a positive development for Buffy.

If you are referring to what they think of the actual character, I haven't really gotten that impression. Sure the Bangel's are excited for their 'ship, but even they're worried about what's coming. But I haven't really read many people saying this is a positive development for Buffy. Some are excited by the potential in the story, other's aren't. A lot of speculation is that this is a bad move for Buffy, that she's on the path to the dark side. Most are taking the wait and see where the story goes approach.

If your talking about Buffy as the entire comic, well I think the excitement comes from there being something to actually talk about and put their emotional investment in, which a lot of people have found it difficult to for a really long time.

Other's just don't like the comic and seem to have to continually say that they don't like the comic. So it goes.
I'm in the wait-and-see section of the fandom right now, and have been since Twilight's identity was leaked. Allie said many times that we should expect to be confused for quite a while so I'm willing to reserve complete judgements of Buffy and Angel until the end of the arc, or even beyond if need be. I agree that Joss and co. want us to have mixed feelings about all of this and create controversy, which they've succeeded in doing. I'm fine with them playing up the B/A because I know that's not what it's ultimately going to be about and because it's a good way to get the fans talking (or arguing). It's also something which was going to be an issue anyway so they might as well bring it to the forefront now.

I both love and hate this arc atm. I love it because we have Angel back and the story has great potential: it could become very interesting and dark considering the #37 cover. And yet I hate it because it's got me worried about everything. Initially my inner B/A shipper squealed with joy to be able to come out of hibernation, but then very quickly became confused, anxious even, due to the ambiguity surrounding Angel and is now putting on the ever-ready crash helmet. I agree that there has to be pain but I also agree that there has to be some happiness, otherwise it does become unrealistic. I want these characters to have even just a little happiness after all the pain they've been through. A happily ever after doesn't exist in the Jossverse and rarely exists in reality but neither does a life of continuous pain and breakups (unless you're really unlucky). I think Mellie's death on Dollhouse really did show how the shock value just isn't there anymore and Joss needs to play a diffreent card. I'd like to see just a little bit of joy on the side for the characters. But this is Joss, and it's Buffy and Angel so it's unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever.

For the moment I have faith in Joss to maintain Buffy as a feminist icon. I certainly don't think that this is a positive development for Buffy: it's likely that she's going to fall and since this is Angel she'll probably fall even harder, and it's going to be difficult for everyone to see. However, we've seen time and again that she gets back up and is even stronger for it. It is ultimately about the character and not the shipping and I don't think Joss has lost sight of that. I think it's best to just hang in there and see how it goes: we've already been warned that we should be worried about Buffy, but I'm going to try not to freak every time she makes a wrong move.

I am quite worried about Angel however. I think it's too soon to go with the 'he's an evil mass-murdering psychopath' idea (besides, I think Angelus reserved that title a while ago). Whilst he doesn't seem entirely sane and his arguments seem untenable, he doesn't appear completely evil to me. But I am concerned about how the whole Twilight thing will affect his path of redemption and the Shanshu. I know some people believe that he is irredeemable but I'd hate for that to be the case in the end, after years of watching the show and wanting there to be some hope for him. But again, I think 'wait-and-see' is the best policy.

Most of the talk has been about the 'Them F#@%ing' part of the title, but I'm concerned about the 'true history of the universe' part as well. I'm worried that the mythology is going to be screwed up with some silly vampire-slayer connection thingy related to the glow and it just won't be believable.
It looks like Joss still knows how to jump start his fandom, lol. I'm not going to start worrying until I know exactly what I am worried about. We should all just enjoy this while it lasts because more than likely, the angst will come.

I am WAY more fearful for what will happen to Giles this season, than any fear of Angel morphing into evil incarnate. It would just kill me if something happens to him.

I've been worried about Buffy ALL season, the thing with Angel is about the most "normal" Buffy thing she has done, imo.

Willow is high on my list to worry over, the green snake woman aside, she seems pretty powerful again.. and power and Willow haven't always mixed well.

Dawn, I even suspect that something is up with her at times. Truthfully, MOST of the gang is treading in some shark infested waters, it sure isn't just Buffy.

One thing I am not worried about, is that the mythology is going to be "screwed up" or that something will happen more unbelievable than vampires, monsters, witches and slayers are to begin with. I'm hyped to see how Joss wants to evolve this.
Kaan said: Sure the Bangel's are excited for their 'ship, but even they're worried about what's coming.

Exactly. This is me.
(sorry I don't know how to quote properly.)
Our super handy 'how to' page tells you to quote.

http://whedonesque.com/?read=howto
I'm just really disappointed that Joss has stooped to anything near the Angel/Spike, shipping element to get a rise out of people and sell comics. It's a little tired. And it's - petty somehow. Will a vampire go bad? Will Buffy choose one of them? I am paralyzed by not caring very much.
Oh I doubt that Spike will act as any serious rival. From what I understand he's not going to be in it long enough to serve any useful purpose.

And yes, I agree. God only knows why Joss seems to be in cahoots with DH in shipper baiting. But then If it sells more issues I suppose...

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-04-06 19:59 ]
Where was Joss baiting the shippers?
cheryl, I'm worried about Giles too. I don't think something will necessarily happen to him, but Angel's comments in the last issue, the preview pages about the "real" history of vampires/slayers has me worried that Giles might become a little bit harder to sympathize with/understand/love/trust in, and I wished by now he'd find a way to get in closer with the group, not away from it. It reminds me of what Joss (and other x-men writers) have done with Professor X over the years. In order to introduce new mythological elements, they've characterized Professor X, the one who basically sets up the rules (like Giles), as a deceiver. Professor X is just now starting to redeem himself, hopefully Giles will have his chance before the season is out.
I'm going to reveal a secret about writers:

They don't care about your ships.
That's shocking information, The Dark Shape (and I wish you luck in getting any shippers of ships not currently being serviced to believe you :).
Buffy bailing on her mission and the lives and safety of her friends and innocent people to get laid, especially with the guy who is most directly responsible for the danger, is normal for "Buffy"? Only if one is using "As You Were" as the template for what "normal" Buffy does. Isn't that right around where the "we've lost the hero" conversation came in? If we'd "lost the hero" then, we've lost it now for exactly the same reasons.
Re: baiting. To respectfully answer Simon, and it is respectful as I see you as an honest and fair sort of guy: Who would swallow a big hook covered by a picture of Buffy and Angel in an embrace? Not disgruntled me, or you and the browncoats. (Buffy and Mal maybe. Buffy and Jayne? I'd kind of like that.) The people who find things other than ships more compelling would be drawn by, well, things they find more compelling. So who is going to swallow that hook and buy that book?
Dark Horse's PR for Buffy season 8 has been interesting (that covers a whole myriad of sins). I've certainly been critical of their lacklustre attempts to promote the comic book about a year ago. Their best selling comic book and where was the efforts to publicise it?

And yes it is a sensationalist image but I guess that's why it's called a teaser. And it certainly does help MTV's page counts. You'd be surprised at how many entertainment writers need hits from sites like this to keep their jobs.

In regards to your point about shipping, a heck of a lot of people are interested in who Buffy ends up with. It felt to me that when the show was on the air that that was all people were interested in. I think that's the writers' greatest fear. Nevermind all the effort you spent on Buffy's journey or whether she's a feminist icon or that the story is epic and amazing, at the end of the day do the fans only want to know who is Buffy going to end up with?
Personally, I'd rather see her end up with no one at all, but happy and fulfilled by her job and her other relationships, back to making morally sound decisions and surrounding herself with people who both support her and challenge her to grow. I'd like her story to end with a smile. (Which is one reason I found the comics pretty unnecessary: I already got the ending I wanted for her.)

That said, I do think who she ends up with and--more importantly--how and why she ends up with said person (if indeed she does, which I'm skeptical about) will reflect on who she is as a person and also on her standing as said feminist icon. It's a tightrope walk.
I'm going to reveal a secret about writers:

They don't care about your ships.


I'd believe that a tad more If nearly all DH's press releases hadn't played so heavily in that direction. 'Yay Spuffy fans you're gonna hate the next issue', and 'Yay Bangel fans just wait till you see the porn!' *g*
That's marketing, not writing. As Simon said, "...a myriad of sins." :)
But they are aware of what story they're pushing here aren't they. What they all deem to be important? Unless Joss has totally turned his back on how his comic is being marketed.

You gotta admit DH has been playing the shipper card like crazy recently.
I think they've been pushing the Buffy/Angel aspect but seeing as the story seems to be about those two at the moment, it would seem somewhat apt.
They absolutely have, but I don't know how much control (he certainly has influence, but not sure about control as such) Joss has or would choose to exert over that. He wants them to sell comics and that sure seems to work :)
Maybe he should look at how some of this is coming across to certain sections of his readership.

But hey, at the end of the day I'm sure he doesn't give a fig what they think. As we've been told by DH these next few issues aren't aimed at the likes of us.

*goes off singing it "I'm a Bangel girl in a Bangel world"......*g*
You know -or at least suspect, I assume- that Joss is interested in the story and not how it comes across to subsets of readership; thus your frustration, I presume. Well, at least not so interested in the subset that it over-rides the story he has laid out.
Well as I'm expecting Joss to do a massive retcon concerning the whole Slayer/Watcher/Vampire dynamic, that's strangely enough the main thing I'm concerned about here, because If he buggers that up, well, he'll have more then just a few shippers gunning for him.

As to poor old Spike, well I doubt Joss can be arsed to do much with him as it would get in the way of the type of story he seems to be trying to lay down here.

It's Angel and Buffy who are the big hitters, and Spikes importance to Buffy's past life just doesn't seem to be worth a jot. Nice one!

But then maybe Spike could hold Angels coat for him whilst he's out having a good...hard....fly. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-04-06 23:28 ]
I decided a long time ago that Spike is more entertaining outside of a relationship. Spike is a better character when he's not castrated. Angel season 5 started off with Spike as comic relief sidejoke but by the end of the season he had become his own man. Love's bitch no more. I don't want Spike in season 8 if they're just going to regress him.
What makes you so sure that what's happening with the Slayer mythos is a retcon? The mythology of the Slayer lineage has been vague at best, with plenty of areas to embellish. Some would consider the introduction of Kendra a retcon, but if the given explanation is plausible and fits within the framework of what is known for a fact, then it's not a retcon.

As for the shipping bit... we've already been reassured that Spike's relationship with Buffy will be respected. No, they more than likely will not end up together, but that's not the only meaning of "respected". I've confidence that Joss will pull off another "Chosen" moment, where Buffy's past, present, and possible future with both men was dealt with sensitively.
"What makes you so sure that what's happening with the Slayer mythos is a retcon?"|

Because we've already have hints both in text and from DH thats the way they're gonna play it. I'm sure Joss will pull something outta his hat to make sense of all of this and to pull Angels arse outta the fire.

As to the rest, well lets say you obviously have more faith in him then I do.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-04-06 23:58 ]
But then maybe Spike could hold Angels coat for him whilst he's out having a good...hard....fly. *g*


You would be much happier in life, I think, if you weren't so concerned about what Spike was doing with his fictional existence.
You mean he's not real? OMG who would have thunk it!! *is stunned*

Thank you so, so much for your concern for my mental welfare. :)
Wow, The Dark Shape. I think that was unnecessary. Don't we all, as fans, get told all the time by outsiders that we shouldn't care about things so much? I always thought we'd be safe from hearing the same thing from other fans.

And if you really think we shouldn't care, then why are you on a fan blog talking about them?
It seems so odd to me that people are getting so bent out of shape over something we don't know about yet.

When in the world has Joss & Co. ever written a story that was exactly as it appears? Going back to the earliest of early Buffy, there have always been twists and turns and here you are, 13 years later, still loving that world. You may be aggravated by said world, but just give it time. I trust those writer peoples.

About Buffy's actions and how it affects her as a feminist icon - really?? Buffy is supposed to be a human being and as such, she makes human errors. (Granted, these new powers may change things a bit... but she's still a person.) When she screws up, it just seems more realistic to me because we all screw up. I tend to screw up quite a bit more than needed... but such is life. She cannot be a feminist icon if all she does is be perfect every second of the day.
I understand that icons are supposed to inspire, stay true to themselves and their beliefs and such. So maybe getting it on with 'the bad guy' doesn't go right along with that. But name ONE season where she didn't screw up and then in the end it was all okay. Name one time Buffy didn't come through. Seriously.

Personally, I'm just glad that season 8 is picking up some steam. I've enjoyed the comics but they haven't been exciting to me. Now I'm excited and I can't wait to see what happens next.
Enough already. Folks have, for the most part, done a good job of setting aside the shipping bollocks. But it's starting to seep out again. Talk about the comic books, not about Spike v. Angel, or shipping, under whatever guise you might want to conceal it. Nothing that happens in this fictional universe should be cause for people here to vent their anger--or snarkiness--on other members. Thanks.
Don't we all, as fans, get told all the time by outsiders that we shouldn't care about things so much?


Generally, no. And definitely not for getting hung up on where a character who's starring in another book is.

I don't care if it's Spike, Connor, etc. You're not judging something fairly if you witness an event and your first thought is about how it impacts characters who haven't appeared in this book.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 00:36 ]
Re: all this talk about shipping and how the writers don't care/shouldn't care/or are yanking us around:

To my mind BTVS was very much centered around romantic relationships. They were one of the pillars of the show and they were an element the writers always went out of their way to focus on even when there wasn't always an apparent need. Buffy season one was Romeo and Juliet; season two was Romeo becoming a monster, but still Romeo and Juliet. Buffy spent season three pining for her man and not being able to have him, but she went on pining and pining anyway. Her inability to this day to forgive Faith while she had no problem allowing Spike, Anya, Andrew and now Twilight into her life is due to the fact that Faith attacked Angel and slept with Riley (and then got close to Angel): love is the motivator here, not what Faith did with the Mayor. Meanwhile as the seasons went on Willow was obsessively focused on first Xander, then Oz, then Tara. And Buffy went around in circles with Riley, then tried to destroy herself with Spike. These weren't mere subplots or window dressing, these stories were prime movers of the entire series. In my view, BTVS wasn't a show about people who happen to be in romantic relationships having adventures: it was a show about the romantic relationships of people having adventures. The idea that the writers gave no thought to "'ships", as if the considerations of the fans who are devoted to that aspect of the series are beneath their concern, strikes me as ludicrous: if anything the writers seemed focused on that one aspect of these characters' lives to an unwieldy degree. For example: did Willow really need to be thrown into another romantic relationship right after losing Tara in season six? Did Buffy need to jump in the sack with Parker just a few episodes after Angel left the show? BTVS is, to my mind, more of a romance than an action adventure, and anyone who believes the writers didn’t specifically craft these “’ships” to provoke an impassioned response from the audience--yes, including outrage--is in my opinion not seeing the whole picture. Sure, Joss can’t and shouldn’t allow the outraged feelings of one particular faction of his audience to dictate his storytelling decisions. But a passionate audience response of bewilderment, outrage and consternation is a hell of a lot more appreciated by any writer than a deafening silence, and one of the points of all these romantic pairings BTVS has presented us with is to keep the audience engaged.
You would be much happier in life, I think, if you weren't so concerned about what Spike was doing with his fictional existence.


That strikes me as exceedingly unkind. I could have sworn all of us are posting on a message board thread devoted to a fictional universe in which a girl with superpowers kung fu kicks vampires. Glass houses, I say.
Yes, there are a lot of poeple who are excited, are disappointed. I'd just like to spead for people who have moved on. I suspect that a lot were like me. People like me ended the Buffy and Angelquestions in their own heads and fan fiction, and were at peace. People moved on and followed the projects of Joss, the actors, the writers. All of them happily posted about here: Firefly, Dollhouse, How I Met Your Mother, Lost, Chuck, V, Castle, Spartacus, Caprica, etc. David fans are Seeley fans, Spike fans watch what James does, Buffy fans follow SMG movies. The past is secure in our heads and we look to the future. So why in the frilly Hee Haw discomfit us by bringing up a (sometimes painful) past? Up until now the comics, which are the only onging Buffy/Angel stories, stayed away from controversial and divisive questions. I respected that. I'm not mad exactly, just kind of disappointed to be dragged back to the depressing part of the past where I just don't want to go.
But The Dark Shape, who defines what's fair? Why do you get to decide how another person reacts to a piece of fiction? We all relate to different things in fiction, and none of those ways are better than any other. If sueworld's favorite character is Spike and she views the world he inhabits through that lens, that is okay. She can do that. And she's free not to like things she doesn't like, as long as she doesn't make the statement that no one else can enjoy them either. (I don't think she has, but then, I haven't read every comment.)

Spike, Connor, Wes, Cordy, Gunn, Illyria etc.--they're all part of this universe. Just because they don't appear on these pages (and I'm pretty sure we know for a fact that Spike will indeed show up, correct?) doesn't mean they disappear from the 'verse.

And by the way, shipping aside (I don't want to go there), I'm concerned about Connor. Why shouldn't I be? His dad's decisions will affect him, and because I'm fond of him (and his relationship with his father), I'm concerned. I can imagine someone being concerned about how Anya's memory will be treated, for instance, and why should anyone tell them that is wrong?

There are no objective standards for enjoyment. There may be for technique, etc. (though those are heavily influenced by the kyriarchy we live in), but there are none for personal enjoyment. Period.

Also, Hellmouthguy, I have found a topic I agree with you on! Exciting!

[ edited by Lirazel on 2010-04-07 00:53 ]
I agree with your analysis, hmg, to the extent that relationships are clearly of paramount importance to this world we love. And feeling passionately is a good sign of the quality of the work, as you suggest.

To return to my warning: shipping is verboten on *this* board, because it devolves into factions slinging mud at each other, precludes reasonable conversation and, frankly, deters those of us who do not have a specific "ship", who, I strongly suspect, are the clear, if less vocal, majority, from participating at all. So, I repeat, no more. Or, people will start getting time-outs.

And I'm actively deleting posts that ignore this. Thanks for listening.
Make that two topics, Lirazel: we both like Connor. You should probably just admit that you secretly agree with me about everything. You'll feel better.

Also: I'm your father.
Yay for Connor love! There's never enough of it!

Also: I'm your father.

I have to give you the appropriate response: NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Why'd you have to chop my hand off?

Also, baxter, that was rather well said. I think I agree with you. I know I agree with your closing sentence!

[eta] Uh, did comments just disappear? I'm so confused! Maybe I'm clairvoyant and I'm replying to someone who will say something in the future! Maybe I'm Drusilla!

[ edited by Lirazel on 2010-04-07 00:57 ]
But The Dark Shape, who defines what's fair? Why do you get to decide how another person reacts to a piece of fiction?


First of all, looking back on that comment, I apologize. It was supposed to come off as teasing, not mean-spirited. So I'm sorry to you for that, Sue.

I don't judge what people like or dislike, or which characters they are attached to. But yes (perhaps unfairly), I do judge on the basis of people who look at the needs and resolutions of a single character (or perhaps two) as more important than the rest of the work.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 00:57 ]
Generally, no. And definitely not for getting hung up on where a character who's starring in another book is.

I'm glad others have already jumped on you for this. Can I add that for at least some of us who are interested in Whedon stories, the real characters are NOT off starring anywhere -- though you can read about them in oceans of fanfic if you just want to hear what other people think might happen to them.

I'm also really, really tired of people who think that the absence of a character who was last seen by Buffy burning up to save the world should just disappear into a black hole and have no bearing on the story or on anybody's thoughts about the story. He was, to quote someone who should know, "incredibly important" to Buffy, and as such is someone fans of the story could and even should be reasonably interested in. Moreover, he's a character who has been guaranteed an appearance. I'd add a that the thought that the beloved son of another major character is equally irrelevant and distracting is also rather bizarre.
But yes (perhaps unfairly), I do judge on the basis of people who look at the needs and resolutions of one character as more important than the rest of the work.

Well, I do think that's unfair. Why does it matter? If that character is the reason you're drawn to a work and the rest of it doesn't do anything for you, why wouldn't you value that character over the rest of the work?

I quit watching Supernatural when a certain character (well, two characters) were killed off. I just stopped watching. Now, of course, part of that was that this particular death was just the final straw in a long string of misogyny on that show, but I guess you could say I valued this one character over the rest of the show.

Why does that matter? I'm just so confused. So someone watches a show in a different way than you do. So what? It's as legitimate a way of enjoying a show as any other.
In that case, why discuss anything? After all, it's just a pot of different opinions and viewpoints. Every discussion should be, "I approve" or "I disapprove." Why discuss at all?

I judge harshly on that because it's incredibly unfair to the writer(s), which is no doubt influenced by the fact I'm a writer.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 01:06 ]
Lirazel. Not sure where my comment went - I didn't delete it and can't imagine a mod thinking it was 'over the line'. Guess I'll go back to quiet mode.
Regarding this "importance of one character" mini-topic:

I quit Battlestar Galactica--a show I had loved up to that point--once they made Tighe a Cylon. Bang, quit, finished. Sold all my DVD's. Never watched another episode, never looked back. Does that mean I think Tighe was more important than the entire show, than the entire rest of the cast? No, but he was my favorite and without him I just didn't care enough to keep watching. Writers are like gods in a way: they create characters and try to control them. But great characters, whether a writer likes it or not, have free will. If you yank them around and trample on that free will you can lose the character.

At least President Bartlet never jumped the shark.
Oh, I guess SNT deleted it. I see that my comment must have appeared directly after her 'warning', although I didn't see that warning before my post and don't believe I was 'shipping' in my comment. In any event, back to my lurkers' hole where I clearly belong.
I quit Battlestar Galactica--a show I had loved up to that point--once they made Tighe a Cylon. Bang, quit, finished. Sold all my DVD's. Never watched another episode, never looked back. Does that mean I think Tighe was more important than the entire show, than the entire rest of the cast? No, but he was my favorite and without him I just didn't care enough to keep watching. Writers are like gods in a way: they create characters and try to control them. But great characters, whether a writer likes it or not, have free will. If you yank them around and trample on that free will you can lose the character.


That's sad, since Tigh's status didn't rape his character. I'd have at least given the show a chance to address it before jumping ship.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 01:16 ]
It's always a matter of taste. I cyber-know someone who would have discarded all his BtVS tapes if Joss had really used the Newhart style ending I came up with as a joke.

I'm still reading these even though I no longer take them seriously, ie. even tho I'm apathetic.

My own eprsonal rpeference would be simply new charatcers in the Buffyverse with our old favroites retired. Heck, my main ficverse deals with them as ex-heroes.
You made an objective statement. "It's not fair that...." You didn't say, "I personally think a work should be judged in its entirety, and that's how I like to view it." You phrased it as an absolute. And that makes all the difference.

I'm a writer, too. I'm also a reader. And a student of literature and literary theory. And I'm pretty sure that since the 1940s, at least, the author has been dead. And I'm glad of that. As a writer. And a reader.

Sure, it's fun to discuss whether the writer accomplished what he or she wanted to--I was involved in a discussion on that very topic the other day on these boards. It's a legitimate discussion, and a fun one. It's also fun to think about, say, the way Keats' early death influenced his poetry. I like learning about writers and their intentions. But at the end of the day, the work stands on its own, and the writer's feelings just don't matter (though I think you should still be respectful to the writer as a human being, even if you say their work is a pile of garbage).

But to say flat out, "Everyone should look at a work in this way" is not cool.

Also, why is it sad that Hellmouthguy gave up on a show that wasn't doing it for him? Why should he waste his time on something he may or may not enjoy when there's an endless number of TV shows/books/movies, etc. out there for him to explore? I set down books fifty pages in if I'm no longer enjoying them or don't think they're going anywhere. Why should I waste my time in a world with a thousand other choices all vying for my time?

[eta]Also! Important point! This isn't a lit classroom. It's a fannish board. There's no accounting for what people will be fannish about. The whole point of such a place is to revel in the things we like and reject the things we hate. And that's okay!

[ edited by Lirazel on 2010-04-07 01:21 ]
That's sad, since Tigh's status didn't rape his character, and yet you didn't even give the show a chance to address it before jumping ship.


It felt to me like they threw some names into a hat to figure out who the next "shocking Cylon reveal" would be and I was getting that distinct latter seasons X-Files feeling of "these writers are making it up as they go along." Also, to me Tighe was the most human character on the show. I didn't want him to be a Cylon. I wanted him to be Tighe. Not Tighe the eternally unchanging--I had no problem with him mellowing out after they spent some time under that Cylon occupation on that colony world--but certainly not Tighe the unwitting Cylon either. I felt he was sacrificed on the altar of stunt writing. Also, I'm a writer too and my writing comes first: there aren't enough hours in the day for stuff like television, and I don't give my entertainment endless chances. Wreck my favorite character for no really good story reason and I'm not going to hang around hoping you make it better somehow.
You phrased it as an absolute. And that makes all the difference.


Because this is the internet. It's understood that everything's an opinion. If you expect everything to be prefaced with "It's my belief that...", you'll either break your fingers redundantly typing it, or have your head explode because people never actually toss it out there. It's implied.

Also, why is it sad that Hellmouthguy gave up on a show that wasn't doing it for him?


Because he gave up on the show due to his belief that it had lost the character, never giving it a chance to actually address the twist. Tigh is revealed in the final episode of Season 3, as I recall. And yet his character wasn't raped. It was Hellmouthguy's assumption that it irrevocably damaged his character, and yet it did no such thing. So he abandoned the show for a reason that really doesn't exist if he actually kept watching.

In short: it was every bit his right to give up on something not working for him. But I dispute his notion that it was bad writing on the grounds he never actually saw how it was related to anything.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 01:24 ]
Ack, I have to run out, so I'll summarize this way:

It's cool to love a character. It's cool to stop liking something because of how said character is treated. Nothing wrong with that.

But I think there's a very big distinction between "I didn't like it" and "that's bad writing," and Sue keeps insulting the series' writing, generally coming back to Spike. That's why I argue it's unfair to the writer. Not that she doesn't like the story, but because she's actually arguing that it's a bad piece of work because she doesn't like its handling of a character (who hasn't appeared). Or so it seems.

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 01:29 ]
It's understood that everything's an opinion.

That definitely hasn't been true in my experience. People make statements all the time about absolutes, and the mean it absolutely. Have you never spent time on a political blog? I'm pretty sure that I believe is not implied there. Almost everything I read on the internet, aside from fanfiction, is examining the world from a feminist perspective, even if it's fandom stuff. Trust me, when we say, "That's sexist," the "I believe" is definitely not implied. It's a flat-out statement.

Also, you used the word "judge." Which implies that something is or is not okay. It rings all kinds of warning bells.

So he abandoned the show for a reason that really doesn't exist if he actually kept watching.

Okay. Why not? He's not writing a book of criticism on BSG. He's just a fan (or not), deciding on how he'll spend his time. It's his time. If he was writing a review about why other people should or should not watch BSG if they really like Tigh, then I would expect him to watch all the way through before he makes such a statement. But he's just a fan. So is Sue. They have no obligation to the text at all.

Also, I think he's right that the writers were making things up as they went along, and that you could view the revelation of the Final Five as evidence of that.

BSG did not end well. In my opinion.

[eta]

Alright. But I think you're misinterpreting Sue's words (or I could be. Who knows? We won't, until she tells us). I think she thinks the writing is bad and is concerned about Spike. Not that the writing is bad because of Spike. Correlation doesn't imply causation. (I amuse myself greatly by using that phrase in this way in this discussion.)

[ edited by Lirazel on 2010-04-07 01:30 ]
Regarding this "importance of one character" mini-topic:

It was once suggested to me that I thought Angel the series should have been called Lindsey McDonald: Attorney at Law. I found that extremely amusing at the time and I still do.

Most everyone has a favorite character. It would be a boring fandom if this were not so.
That's three things, Lirazel. I'm counting.
--Dad
'Course they were making things up as they went along, every show does.

Okay. Why not? He's not writing a book of criticism on BSG. He's just a fan (or not), deciding on how he'll spend his time.


To which I say, 'see above.' (Which I guess is sorta high now, but my last post.) That's the distinction as I see it.

EDIT:

Perhaps, we'll see when Sue comes back. So I'll back off from this, bowing my head at the use of 'correlation doesn't imply causation.'

[ edited by The Dark Shape on 2010-04-07 01:34 ]
I'm going to reveal a secret about writers:

They don't care about your ships.

I really hope they don't care about the influence of 'shippers. The creators of the work should stay true to the original intent, imo. If it was ever confirmed that they deviated from a plan to pander to the fandom (especially a single section of the fandom), that would make me lose faith in the whole thing. Why should we get to control it?

I also am not really worried about a Slayer Mythos retcon. Moving that part of the story forward is probably one of the most interesting (and sacred) parts to Whedon, right? Like wenxina said, there are plenty of areas to embellish that lore without screwing it up. One of the final frontiers of this fiction, really.
But I think there's a very big distinction between "I didn't like it" and "that's bad writing," and Sue keeps insulting the series' writing, generally coming back to Spike. That's why I argue it's unfair to the writer. Not that she doesn't like the story, but because she's actually arguing that it's a bad piece of work because she doesn't like its handling of a character who hasn't appeared. Or so it seems.


Err no. Spike doesn't enter into it. I just think the whole thing so far has been poorly paced, and not very well written imo and some of the 'wackier' ideas far too distracting and quite frankly, don't feel very Buffy like to me at least.

'Horses for courses' though. :)

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-04-07 01:38 ]
You know what? I think that this post (which is one of my all-time favs!) should be the capping point of this discussion. It probably won't be, but I encourage you all to read it. The title is: Your Friends Are Not Watching The Same Show You Are (And That's Okay).

Also, thanks, Sue, for clarifying. I thought I was reading you correctly, but I wasn't sure.


Also, Hellmouthguy, I'm beginning to get scared! Do you sound like James Earl Jones?
It was Hellmouthguy's assumption that it irrevocably damaged his character, and yet it did no such thing.


In your opinion. The character was irrevocably damaged for me. And that's all that matters. Some things are just subjective; you can say it's great, I will go on obstinately thinking it's rubbish. Oh, and I also wasn't a fan of Starbuck the ace pilot/soldier/negotiator/sharpshooter/poker player/savior of humanity etc. etc. either. Toward the end I started thinking of Fonzie every time I saw her. And yet I have a friend who just loves her to death (yet who also thinks BSG went off the rails toward the end and actually made his opinion known to Ron Moore in a Q and A session.) It's kinda like this whole Spike thing: horses for courses, as Sueworld says.
Thanks for that link, Lirazel. I'll underline this part: "[A]s long as no one comes to blows or flamewars over which personal show is better . . .."

When you have thousands of members, 100s of whom participate actively, posting in the semi-anonymity of a community weblog, preventing blows and flames is actually a job of work. Made easier by people not being so strident in their opinions and, you know, following the site rules. Cheers.
In your opinion.


How did the reveal of him being a Cylon, with no other information other than he didn't know he was a Cylon, damage his character? Unless my memory's fuzzy (possible!), that's all I recall from the episode where the four were revealed.

Genuinely curious, not argumentative.
How did the reveal of him being a Cylon, with no other information other than he didn't know he was a Cylon, damage his character?


Um...because I didn't want him to be a Cylon? There is something Pythonesque about this BSG exchange. Dark Shape, do you mean to tell me that you do not, in point of fact, have any cheese at all?

Also because I thought by that point the writers were throwing darts at a board. How are we gonna shock people this week? Thwap! So and so is a Cylon! Which just goes to show that the old saying is true: Fool me once, shame on The X-Files; fool me twice, shame on me.

Lirazel--I sound just like Jimmy Olsen from the old black and white Superman TV show. I actually go around calling everybody "chief".
do you mean to tell me that you do not, in point of fact, have any cheese at all?

LOL - thanks HMG for bringing on the sanity.
Um...because I didn't want him to be a Cylon?


"You know, I sure did like that Riley boy, but the moment Buffy saw him as a commando in that tower... I was done with the show. I just didn't want him to be a commando. Does every one of her boyfriends have to be evil?"
Munster. Cheddar? Monterey Jack!
Venezuelan Beaver Cheese?
What? Twilight is Angel?
No, Glory is Ben.
Simon said:
Our super handy 'how to' page tells you to quote.


Thank you! I've bookmarked the page. :)
The Dark Shape -

Since you brought up Riley and many readers, including myself, are concerned with how this season will effect Buffy's character - I can't help thinking that Buffy is being damaged from her reunion with Angel. It's not so much that she will be connecting with Angel again, but what this will have to connect with all her actions starting from Parker and ending with Spike.

How does this Buffy connect with the Buffy that claimed she loved with all her heart and that she had never opened herself to anyone ever as she did with Riley? Was Buffy delusional or simply lying or was she utterly lacking in self-awareness? And what does all that use of Spike, time and time again, as little more than sexual gratification - what does that say about Buffy's character in light of this season and how she related with these other men and loves in her life?

There are a lot of fans that are very confused with all this. Granted, we have no idea where this is going and how Joss Whedon will conclude and change his Buffyverse and his prime heroine. Right now I can't help asking myself what was the whole point of the compelling and powerful transformation arc that she shared with Spike - what about all that love and opening of herself so completely to Riley treatment? I don't know what to believe about this Buffy anymore.

I'm just glad that we are finally getting to the end of all this - and it's a pity that after all these years of being such a devoted fan that what I am feeling most is a sense of confusion about the history of these characters in the TV era and the comic book season.
Maggie, you make a valid point here re the absence of Spike thus far:

I'm also really, really tired of people who think that the absence of a character who was last seen by Buffy burning up to save the world should just disappear into a black hole and have no bearing on the story or on anybody's thoughts about the story. He was, to quote someone who should know, "incredibly important" to Buffy, and as such is someone fans of the story could and even should be reasonably interested in. Moreover, he's a character who has been guaranteed an appearance.


I, for one, hope his reappearance is more than just fleeting as has been suggested, not because I'm holding out for a big Buffy/Spike love match, even though I'll be honest (hope this is okay to say here) and state for the record that I enjoyed watching that element of their relationship, from the bad initially through to the good at the end, I do believe Joss wont go there again, at least not to that extent. No, my excitement about the Spike return is simply because I think he's a flipping brilliant, conflicted, well developed, always interesting character and I've missed him in Season 8 and he did have an important role to play in Both Buffy and Angel's worlds, so his reappearance and people's desire for that seems perfectly natural I think.

Nmcil - I think being conflicted/puzzled over TV vs Comic book verse is understandable. I said yesterday that in comic book world the writers can get away with things they wouldnt perhaps have gotten away with on the TV show. For me, I enjoy the two worlds as completely seperate things. There is so much of the S8 comics that would have had me switching off if it had happened on the show, but at the same time I'm being entertained by the madness and extremes that comic world BTVS has gone to. I guess that make me a bit nuts, huh?
I really want to have Spike back too, though maybe not soon since with all the Buffy/Angel-ness, any attempts at discussion will likely turn into a 'shipping war. I would like to see him later on however. I miss his sarcasm and the humour he provided. I think we need a character like him who's going to be insightful yet brutally honest, who's just going to get to the point and tell it like it is and make us laugh as well.

At the same time, I'd like his appearance to further his own character development. Whilst he is linked to both Buffy and Angel's lives, I think more could be done for him as an independent character. I was heartbroken at Angel leaving Buffy in S3, but I was also appreciative of the fact that he was able to grow as a more independent character and find his own purpose, and now he's back as his story is intertwined with Buffy's again. I felt it was important for them both to grow separately and I want the same to be done for Spike. Although he has changed and developed over the course of both series, to me he seems very much linked to Buffy and Angel's stories at the moment. I want him to go off on and do his own thing, 'find his place in the world' so to speak and then come back. I don't think this can be done if he's going to be appearing in S8/9 soon but ideally, that's what I'd want to see.
Nmcil...yeah the Buffy and Riley "opening up ike never before bit" kinda struck me as like she never told any other lover she was the slayer nor had she the opportunity to invite them into that aspect, Angel was part of it, Parker was an ass and Scott wasn't really the type! Perhaps that's how she opened up, i mean the argument can be made that he was already aware of the dangers that were out there, but he never knew about her, about the 'real' aspects of what he was facing and the bigger picture of it all. I think that's what Buffy opened up to him, then she shut him out in S5...but hey it worked out okay for him...sorta...
I didn't read all the posts, but for me there is a big difference between sleeping with Angel in S2 and now. Back there he was really the good guy plagued by the evil twin bad deeds. However, now Angel (not Angelus), with a soul and with plenty of opportunity to send any warn to Buffy, just decides that it is really better kill (or witness the killing) 206 girls (to say the last) then talk to anyone that matters first. I can understand he had to kill Drogyn and Fred because there was not any way out... although in both case Angel's actions after You're Welcome were nothing but a big vendetta against W&H and ended killing those two. So, yeah, I feel Angel was wrong back there. The point is Angel and Buffy, while separated, did a lot of mistakes... but now was the top... Buffy and Angel shagging over 206 murdered girls is too much for me!! I'm Bangel and I am pissed with all this development... and with other Bangel who think this is a good thing "just because they are together". I'd rather see them forever separated that together over this. I think that it was not only Buffy's moral certainty that Twilight challenged... it was ours also. I'll ended up without a ship. Spuffy is not an option mainly because he used the woman he supposedly loved fears to get to her pants saying she came back wrong, she belonged with him... in the darkness. Hey... Buffy could be with Andrew???!!! Or go back to Riley?????

[ edited by Angeluffy on 2010-04-09 15:58 ]

[ edited by Angeluffy on 2010-04-09 16:00 ]


[ edited by Angeluffy on 2010-04-09 15:58 ]
Here's a crazy thought - Let Buffy grow up and rid herself of any clinging to boy friends needs - Let Chiron reign and let her be healed for all the boy friend muck -

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