This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"Pain. Death. Apocalypse. None of it fun."
11944 members | you are not logged in | 21 August 2014




Tweet







April 27 2010

(SPOILER) Five page preview of Angel #32. It's in stores tomorrow.

As more vampires start running around Hollywood, Connor and crew must figure out a way to stop the carnage and deal with his little merry band of demon girls. Meanwhile, Angel has it out with his captors, before learning that things really can get weirder than he thought."

:D Beware, it's the incredible Angel Hulk!
Good preview.I like the call back to Dracula.
Yeah, I wasn't keen on that 'Hulk Smash' panel either I'm afraid. Nasty. I hate it when comic book artists do that, even for dramatic effect. It comes across as visually so OTT as well as rather ugly to me at least.

The cover art looks wonderful though, but the inside excepts...neh, not so keen on how the dialog reads so far.

Where's this rivalry coming from with Gunn for example. Spike actually seemed to like the man going by the series.
hehehe... I was so about to post ANGEL HULK SMASH before opening the comments, and someone already had.

I tend to grimace before reading when seeing a 5 bubble dialogue for Illyria -- the only time she ever really would get going with the talking was if she was idly commenting on things. Pertinent information/exposition does not flow from Illyria, never has. She cocks her had and stares balefully.

As per usual, everything seems... off. I have no (or little) trouble with Spike going with 'Colonials' (although shouldn't this be subject to the same Lady Genevieve criticisms?), but when the hell did he start having glib conversations about what, if anything, other men have named the unit?
I didn't get Gunn or Spike's attitude in this preview. What was with Gunn lashing out at Connor and calling him just a "dumb hormonal kid"? I canít even imagine early S1/S2 Gunn being that nasty for no good reason. And Spike agreeing with him just seemed odd as he and Connor had a good rapport in AtF.

I also agree with King that Illyria was way too talky and it didn't sound much like her at all. I understand that Joss wrote most of Illyria's dialogue on the show but Willingham doesn't seem to have a handle of her character. She just sounds like some watered down version of Anya.

Connor's just... meh. I'm the first to admit that I don't have a really great handle on his character but I can't hear VK when I read his dialouge, but it doesn't totally sound OOC either. Weird.

The art is good (except for the HULK SMASH and the cover which I find bland and dull) but other than that it still seems as bad as the other issues.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-04-27 14:25 ]
Oh I don't know - I thought it all read ok. Illyria's speech wasnt a speech....just a long sentence.Gunns comment was because they were playing 'Good Cop/Bad Cop' with Connor (she says so herself) And Spike was just joking bout naming the unit...not sure how that can be criticised.

I have a feeling that from now on every single issue of Willingham's run is going to be bashed, even if he writes the greatest Angel story ever. It's like no matter what some people are going to be predjudiced against it.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-04-27 14:28 ]
Willingham had a lot of support before any of his issues actually came out. Granted, his "repugnant" rant didn't do him any favours but I know of many people who were very excited to have a writer of his 'calibre' working on Ats. People's dissatisfaction with the story is because it doesn't really work on any level. He has neither a grasp on the character's voices or behaviour and it's not as if the story is really thrilling or anything.

I'd think even the most ardent S8 haters would admit that the characters at least SOUND like themselves but the voices are so off in this title that it's really hard to get over. The Buffyverse -- more so BtVS than Ats but still -- is pretty much known for its quirky dialogue and the character's distinct voices and Willingham fails badly at capturing that. They all sound and behave very 'off' and if they're totally unrecognisable than it's no wonder the story is receiving such a negative reaction. He has Spike and Gunn hating each other for some reason, Spike sleeping with a woman whilst planning to torture her afterwards and Illyria asking Angel for his permission to do something. And, um, Angel was "bored" for the past 2 issues...

If you want to chalk it all up to fans just 'bashing' the story for the hell of it that's your prerogative but I think it's pretty warranted. If you want to see a IDW comic that is actually working right now read Barbary Coast Issue #1 which was very well written and captures Angel's voice perfectly. This is just dismal.

EDIT: Thanks for pointing out the good cop/bad cop routine which at least explains why Gunn was so rude to Connor. Still, Gunn and Spike aren't exactly being subtle and I just find all the talk about Connorís penis to be weird. Meh.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-04-27 14:51 ]
vampmogs - I have the same complaints you do. Things did seem off the last few issues. But here is a 5 page preview that had nothing of great merit wrong with it...and its ripped to shreds.

I just think that people will never get past the so-so beginning, and will open every single issue with the eye to criticise it, even before they read it. I go into every issue with an open mind. Some things work for me...others dont. But I dont scan every page,every panel, every word for something to complain about....which is what seems to happen with a lot of fans of the Angel comic now.It's like "Let's see what I can find wrong with this issue"


And yes Barbary coast is excellent.

And no not all the characters sound like themselves on Buffy....I cant hear Boreanaz say those lines...and Willow sounds 'off' sometimes as well. But we dont have the actors saying the lines so it is down to how good a mimic we are in our heads:)
But here is a 5 page preview that had nothing of great merit wrong with it...and its ripped to shreds.

Well I guess thatís up for each individual reader to decide. Compared to some of the other pages in Willinghamís run, no, this isnít the worst of it, but I agree with others that it still feels very Ďoffí and unsatisfactory. The characters still aren't acting like themselves and their voices are just passable, at best.

We still have Gunn and Spike feuding for some inexplicable reason and Spike with his frat boy, juvenile humour (why oh why is he talking about Connor naming his penis?) which is tired by this point.

I just think that people will never get past the so-so beginning, and will open every single issue with the eye to criticise it, even before they read it. I go into every issue with an open mind. Some things work for me...others dont. But I dont scan every page,every panel, every word for something to complain about....which is what seems to happen with a lot of fans of the Angel comic now.It's like "Let's see what I can find wrong with this issue"

Iíll happily concede that I read these preview pages with the expectation for them to be bad. I will admit that. But I didnít read those pages to look for flaws, I read them to look for any signs that Willinghamís writing was improving. So I actually had the total opposite intentions.

And yes Barbary coast is excellent.

Yay! We agree :)

I think it's a pity the guy who's writing that isn't the one writing the main title for IDW. And I feel really bad that I can't even remember his name right now because heís someone I want to remember it for all the right reasons and not for how they're screwing up the characters.

And no not all the characters sound like themselves on Buffy....I cant hear Boreanaz say those lines...and Willow sounds 'off' sometimes as well. But we dont have the actors saying the lines so it is down to how good a mimic we are in our heads:)

Hm, guess we disagree about Willow as I've never had a problem with her dialogue. The only time I find the dialogue jarring in S8 is when the characters swear but that's mostly because we never had that in the show except for a few occasional 'near' slip ups like in Life Serial when Buffy starts to say "What the fuc-" before we cut to another scene.

I do agree with you that Angel doesnít sound totally like himself (Iím talking about after he removes the mask as we have a magical explanation for how he previously spoke) but I think heís supposed to be fairly crazy at this point so it makes sense.
Fair enough - to all the above (am running out the door so dont have time to respond to everything!:))

My view is this - I really dislike Buffy Season 8. But I dont go into every Buffy thread and repeat it ad nasuem. I dont see the point of it. I don't try and get it into every Buffy convo 'Look how much I hate Season 8....let me count the ways' every time I see a preview page printed.

This is what I see every Angel thread. It just gets old.

So maybe I should start doing that. Become one of those people who makes it a point to complain in order to reiterate how 'sucky' things have become.But I just don't have the will, or feel the need to. If people are enjoying it....fair fecks. I am glad to leave em off.

Maybe I have the wrong view?
blech ... nothing here to make me change my mind and start buying this title. I still think it should be named 'Everybody but Angel'. Makes me sad. I miss my Angle comics.
The Angel:Barbary Coast writer is David Tischman.
I didn't sit down and look at the preview thinking "what will I find here that sucks" -- I didn't jump to conclusions, someone once said, I took a tiny step and there conclusions were. Characterization is shaky, conflict (like Gunn vs. Connor? The hell?) seems unmotivated, and Illyria in particular continues to bear little or no resemblance to herself (with the caveat being nobody writing IDW's book seems to have decided how much Fred they are using there).

Bottom line is, it's no accident that you can tell which book Joss is working on.

And, y'know, if people *are* going through Willingham's arc looking for flaws? Sorry man. He basically asked for it when he all but explicitly said that he thinks has more say on who the Angel character is and will become than Joss does, and claimed some completely BS breach of courtesy between writers with the "repugnant" commment. If he didn't want the audience to play whack-a-mole with his work, he should stop making himself into a rubber gopher.
If he didn't want the audience to play whack-a-mole with his work, he should stop making himself into a rubber gopher.


lol KoC ... very funny. And I totally agree with the rest of your statement as well. Makes me sad for the franchise.
I'm looking forward to picking this up along with Barbary Coast and Buffy #35 next week!
I was one of the people who was very excited about Willingham, since I love Fables and I even supported him through the repugnant mess, but sadly, aside from the art (not the Hulk panel)the comics just don't do it for me.

The characters just don't sound like themselves at all and the plot mostly makes me think, now if someone who really knew the show would work with this, it would have potential.

Take that plot about celebreties using Angel's blood to sire themselves. That would be a perfect opportunity to bring up Rebecca, the actress who tried to get Angel to turn her in S1. It also would be pretty awesome if the mythology about how vampires that Angel sires with a soul turn out, would be extended. Lawson lacked something important for a vampire, a problem that these vamps don't seem to have.

Character voices, a love for detail and building on canon, that would sell it to me in a heartbeat, but as it is, it's just too far from what I love to read it and every time I read another preview I find it hasn't really changed from the first two issues.

[ edited by Changeling on 2010-04-27 19:35 ]
Now, I love IDW. I love what they did with Angel. I still love the minis. "After the Fall" is still my favorite comic, and I think Brian Lynch has translated the Buffyverse to comics better than any other writer. Yes, *any* other. But...

Angeliclestat, I'd love to be with you on this one. But... IDW's Angel used to be my favorite comic. I'd anticipate the Wednesday it came out more than any other book, any other DVD, any other release ever. I was in love with the comic. Even through Armstrong's run, I knew it would get better in the end, because we had the promise of Lynch coming back. But then... this...

Willingham is on for the long run it seems. Willingham doesn't get the characters. The fact that this series has gone down so much in quality is breaking my heart. I can hardly manage to read through an entire issue anymore. It's just... it's honestly just bad writing. Which is odd because Fables is usually decent, if not good, if not great. But this... this is just written with no care or attention for the dialogue or characters or the world or the fans. I hope Willingham starts caring more and, um, watches the show again. Or reads "After the Fall." Because as a fan of not only Angel, but also just good fiction in general, the carelessness with which this is written is almost insulting.
Pat - now that I have you....when are you gonna post up to date reviews man:) Looking forward to your take on the lastest issues!
I hope to get around to a mass review of all the recent Buffyverse comics sometime today. Life has been busy.
Ditto what @Changeling said. I feel like Willingham's story could be great if he actually knew the characters and universe and mythology well enough to actually write them.
I'm really sorry to hear you haven't been enjoying the Angel books, pat, especially since you've been very supportive of what Brian's done in the past. I wrote a long post about Bill today but I'll trim it down because I do want some people to reconsider.

Bill is the sort of writer who wants to be able to make characters his own. This is Bill Willingham's Angel, through and through. We're getting whole new takes on every character and, while that can be disorienting at first, it's also rewarding for those who stick around to see things play out. He's playing a long game with these characters. There is a reason they are each acting strangely. When you wonder why Spike is being so cruel lately the reality is that you are supposed to be asking that. You aren't supposed to know exactly why everyone is doing what they are doing. There are surprises coming, big ones that, if you knew about them, it would change your outlook on the book. You have to be willing to be patient though.

Bill's Angel story is all about people screwing up. Not only are our main cast of characters making mistakes, but the whole of Los Angeles seems to have come a bit unhinged as well. The story is also about what happens after everything goes to hell and back. While, physically, there was a reset, mentally everyone is still reeling. Everyone did things in hell they regret, they all lost something, and now most people are just searching for meaning again, for an understanding of self. In that way, it makes sense that every character is off. They don't know who they are anymore.

Some of you think that Bill isn't really a fan. I've never asked him so, honestly, I don't know if he obsesses the way some of us do but I can tell you that his editor, Mariah, is about as big a fan as they come so she wouldn't let Bill take these characters on such a dark journey if she didn't know it was going someplace that is interesting and makes sense for the characters.

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home