Um, SPOILER! At least until tonight....

fraying | November 20, 03:16 CET

Fraying, I have to agree with your point there.

400lb_Gorilla | November 20, 03:22 CET

It's a bit early for the thread, but we do this so people can post straight after watching the show and we have one thread for it.

... anyway, I watched it earlier and enjoyed it start to finish.

Caroline | November 20, 03:25 CET

I wish I got wildfeeds.

400lb_Gorilla | November 20, 05:11 CET

OH. MY. GOD. I have to say i didnt see that one coming. thats all i can get out now.

400lb_Gorilla | November 20, 07:00 CET

Um. I. Um. It's. Um. Wow.
I NEVER saw that coming and I'm SO glad I was unspoiled for it. I screamed so loud I woke the kids. Repeating myself from a previous post, I'm really starting to feel like these eps are written for the long-time fans and it's about time.

Aside: Willowy often posts that they should bring Lindsey back. Bet she's dancin' tonight!

meredith | November 20, 07:13 CET

It is a funny thing that I was a little spoiled for this
episode, however I was still blown away. The history
and the interplay with Angel and Spike couldn't get any better.
Then to see Lindsey come back at the end and to wonder at what
complexities he will add caused me to turn off the TV. I really
didn't want the WGN news at nine with likely a Michael Jackson
headline to spoil the moment.

pesoto74 | November 20, 07:22 CET

Hmm according to IMDb, Christain Kane has returned to Angel, but not as Lindsey. His character is suppossedly called "Sean". I know Buffy has done this before (with Zachary the psychotic vampire, then Rack, the Magic dealer) But Lindsey was a recurring character so I'm curious about how this pans out.

Hell, maybe Lindsey just changed is name...

Some posts have been edited to change text into invisible text because of spoilers. If you like to be spoiled - highlight them with your mouse, if you are unspoiled then don't -Simon

[ edited by Simon on 2003-11-20 09:39 ]

protector | November 20, 07:24 CET

Oh boy. Count me in as someone who did not see that coming, and I'm so glad I wasn't spoiled for it.

Good episode. I think I need to watch it again before I can really understand what was going on under the surface, though.

witless | November 20, 07:26 CET

don't know about this "Sean" business, but I think it's clear from the way he was saved for the surprise ending that we are definitely meant to recognize him as our Lindsey.

[ edited by Simon on 2003-11-20 09:34 ]

melsta | November 20, 07:37 CET

As one who doesn't like spoilers I try not to read things that will spoil something for me so if Lyndsey really is Sean I feel that it was just spoiled. Obviously the way the show ended with us seeing who Eve got into bed was was to make us all think it is Lyndsey (and I hope it is and this "spoiler" is wrong). This is the thing that totally pisses me off. People read the title of the posting, it doesn't say "spoiler" so we think it's safe and someone feels the need to just blurt out their info. I thought I was coming to a safe spot to discuss the episode that I just saw but I guess I was wrong.

[ edited by blwessels on 2003-11-20 05:58 ]

[ edited by Simon on 2003-11-20 09:35 ]

Firefly Flanatic | November 20, 07:56 CET

On the sean thing, the end credits ran to fast for me, did somebody record it? Christian Kane had to be in the end credits, and they would of listed him Christian Kane as (whoever) If it's Sean, it's not a spoiler, if it's lindsey, then I dont know, it could be just a rumor(IMDB is often wrong). I gave the episode 4 out of 5 stars. The actual review is at my blog.

[ edited by Simon on 2003-11-20 09:36 ]

400lb_Gorilla | November 20, 08:18 CET

My point was, someone thinks they have information that no one else knows and they just blurt it out without any warning. That is a spoiler to me and we all know that not all spoilers manifest into actual facts but that still doesn't make me want to read any when I feel I am in a safe place that shouldn't have any. The posting was about Herc's review of Destiny and if we agreed or not - it is not about what someone read on another website that the character is actually not who we all assume he is but some other person. If that's not a spoiler than I don't know what is. Also, not all of us get to read the closing credits because quite often the next show either squeezes it so small to showcase something else or just doesn't show it at all.

Firefly Flanatic | November 20, 08:29 CET

Fair Point.

400lb_Gorilla | November 20, 08:32 CET

I loved it! But I'm just waiting for the ballywho from the diehard Lindsay fans complaining that he's been brought back as a "bad guy". We don't know that he's a bad guy... he could be back to destroy his eeeeevil former employers and has discovered that the formerly heroic Angel is now working with/for the firm.

Anyways, I'm sure there will tons of people upset by what they think is going to happen, but I think there's a lot of potential for some great stories here.

Oh, but let's not forget... Mutant Enema is forgoing the arcs this year. Yessir, no arcs here... *rolling eyes*

Haunt | November 20, 09:07 CET

I just rewound my tape, and, interestingly enough, Christian Kane is completely uncredited. The plot thickens.

And we have to wait two weeks for a new episode too, damn it.

keever | November 20, 09:39 CET

When was Lindsey ever anything but a bad guy? Just because he may have felt a pang or two of conscience towards the end doesn't make him a reformed soul.

melsta | November 20, 10:30 CET

Just to clarify. If info about a character is not revealed in the episode or in the end credits then it is a spoiler. I've edited some posts and parts of posts to turn the spoilers into invisible text.

Anyway what were the historical flash backs like?

Simon | November 20, 11:30 CET

If it is Lindsey, how'd he fix his arm?

fraying | November 20, 11:37 CET

... wouldn't a Brit say 'Moutain DUE' instead of DOO?

That's annoying me.

Caroline | November 20, 13:26 CET

I was certainly not expecting to see Lindsey, but it was great. I'm officially loving this season now. Great ep. Great confrontation. (Both mental and physical) I always said a fight between Spike and Angel could go either way and I'm happy that it showed.
(So tired of all the boards with people going "I like Angel so he should kick Spike's ASS!" or "Spike is the coolest so Angel doesn't have a chance!" etc etc.) But it was a cool surprise to see Spike have the edge this time.
I hate shows where the title character can do no wrong and lose no fight. It's why I consider Hercules or Xena and the like more for kids.

Also I think the shanshu-ending won't be as simple as "Oh so Angel was the one after all" or "Oh, so it was Spike". I hope for yet another twist that will turn that whole dynamic on it's head! Hey you know Joss and ME are good at that.

As for the "DUE" vs "DOO", well yes, a perfect BBC english-speaking Brit would probably say "DUE". But in a cockney accent?

EdDantes | November 20, 14:12 CET

Even in a Cockney accent. I don't think any British accent would use 'DOO'.


"To be a true Londoner - a Cockney, you have to be born within hearing distance of the bells of St. Mary Le Bow, Cheapside, in the City of London."

Spike doesn't have a Cockney accent. JM modelled his accent on Tony Head IRL. Head's real life accent is North London. (Though his speech is affected due to the fact he grew up speaking 'posh', going to a grammar school and getting the shit kicked out of him for being posh... and so he tried to blend in with the other kids more. Etc etc etc.)

Cockney is East-London, though some linguists say 'cockney' is any working class London accent.

Caroline | November 20, 14:31 CET

So what's wrong with Mr. Photographic Memory? Why can't he smell Lindsey all over Eve?

fraying -- As for how Lindsey fixed his arm, that episode actually airs next Tuesday on TNT.

[ edited by Robo-Ritter on 2003-11-20 13:17 ]

Robo-Ritter | November 20, 15:16 CET

Oooooh - good point! Maybe all those symbols amount to an anti-smell charm?

melsta | November 20, 15:55 CET

Melsta: I was thinking anti detection spells too, but not only from Angel, but also the Senior Partners. Looks like Eve is playing a dangerous game, since any of the three parties involved would kill her if they felt they were being played, and who knows where her loyalties really are.

Great ep.

herb | November 20, 16:35 CET

Good Points by RoboRitter and Melsta. I was wondering the same thing. As for Eve...Herb is right...who knows where her loyalties really lie. She did tell Fred, pretty convincingly I might add, that she was not the bad guy. Hmmmm...my minds gears are turning...Welcome back AtS...and welcome back "the arc".

Coll | November 20, 16:54 CET

Geez is there a party on this post or what? Even though I haven't seen the ep yet (I recorded it and an out-of-town friend and I are watching tonite), I already know all about it, (big spoiler glutton) so I just had to come and see what you all are saying.

I really think this "Sean" is our Lindsey. Why else would they bother with the big reveal? And meredith, you were oh so right about me dancin when I found out. Think we can get Lilah back now?

Simon, good job with the invisotext, and don't worry about those few pouters who nag. You're doing the best you can!

Robo-Ritter, melsta, good call on the tats. I think they are some kind of protection/anti-detection thingy too. Time will tell I guess. Think Lilah has anything to do with Lindsey's return? Maybe little Evie is getting too big for her britches and Lilah (watching from hell) don't likey. (wank)

[ edited by prolific on 2003-11-20 15:27 ]

Willowy | November 20, 17:06 CET

I think that it was Lindsey at the end of the episode, but I also got from his comment "it's a start" after Eve told him that Spike had only beaten Angel up means that he still wants Angel dead and sees Spike as a way to do it.
Which would give him good reason to give Spike a fake name when he meets him in a few episodes, he won't exactly want Spike saying he had a chat with a bloke named Lindsey because then Angel would go and track him down.

[ edited by prolific on 2003-11-20 15:27 ]

Ghost Spike | November 20, 17:23 CET

I absolutely loved this episode and came on last night to state that but was annoyed by the spoiler issue. I'm glad to see that at least that has been addressed even though it's too late for me. As for the episode. It was absolutely fantastic. I think it was the best this season and is definitely one that got the story moving along. I have always thought it was a great idea when Spike came on the show and I always thought the possibilities for potential stories would be much greater with the history of Spike and Angel. Both actors play off each other so well and they seamlessly move from flash back scenes to modern scenes where both their characters are so different. It was nice to truly see the birth of Spike and that Angel is his true sire - even though it was Dru that turned him into a vampire, it was Angelus who made him the killer he became. The dynamics are just so fantastic.

As for no one being able to detect what Eve and Lindsey have been up to well, the whole room that she entered was covered with symbols and so was Lindsey, I'm guessing they are some sort of masking spell. Although Eve apparently doesn't have the same symbols painted all over her body - I think Angel might have noticed that. Having just re-read some of the other posts, others have pointed this out too.

What I love that the writers are doing is showing us how much Angel and Spike have always been drawn to each other and have always felt competitive. Angel has always been the one who has always bested Spike until tonight but Angel's heart just wasn't in it enough to fight for the alleged reward. It will be interesting what they do with that.

Also, I know because these flashbacks would've been from Buffy, but wouldn't it have been great if they had shown the scenes between Angelus, Spike and Dru when Spike was in the wheelchair and Angelus was having a blast tormenting him? They implied back then on Buffy that Angelus and Dru had had a history as well and it was nice to see them confirm it.

I also absolutely loved the banter back and forth when they were fighting regarding who did what with Buffy, and Spike not killing Angel because she'd never forgive him. With all this talk off Buffy this season I do hope it is an indication that SMG is truly scheduled for a guest appearance. My guess if it happens will be at a time when Angel and Spike are actually starting to bond and work together and in comes Buffy to stir everything up again.

Firefly Flanatic | November 20, 17:36 CET

Hey, for future ref, what's the code for this loverly "invisitext"? I'm guessing it's just black text but me no know no html.

melsta | November 20, 17:40 CET

I'm still recovering from Angel last night!! There was one point that I didn't know who I wanted to win the fight. I have always been a true Angel fan but Spike brought up a point that I have been thinking about for awhile: is Spike more worthy of the prophecy since he fought to get his soul back whereas as Angel had his forced upon him? I mean, even though Spike did it for Buffy he still did it for love. Once again, everything is not black and white. Then seeing Lindsey at the end....priceless.... Again not black and white: what is Eve's deal??? She did seem truly genuine when talking to Fred so who knows. Maybe she believes she is fighting the good fight. I also have to add that I'm so happy that they didn't solve the prophecy last night. It is just too big to be taken care of in one episode. Another great episode. Gotta love Mutant Enemy stating that the season would be just stand alone episodes....hmmm.... another case of everything not being black and white???

lala | November 20, 18:22 CET

I would prefer if people hide text the following way (font tags are depreciated):

<span class="invisible">the text you want to hide</span>


oooh, hidden text!

Caroline | November 20, 18:32 CET

Cool! Thanks! And you can even see where something's missing!

melsta | November 20, 18:47 CET

Does anyone have actual quotes where ME said that there would ONLY be stand-alone episodes? My reading and understanding was that moving into the law firm afforded the opportunity to do MORE stand-alone episodes, not to exclusively do so, and that they wanted to move away from last season's emphasis where it was ALL arc, with no stand-alone episodes.

brother_grady | November 20, 20:44 CET

Best episode yet this season! I really liked the way Spike got his corporeal self back. Just a flash of light! I'm assuming it was Lindsay who orchestrated his resurrection but it couldn't have just been to try to get him to kill Angel. That would be dumb since he would know that Spike was ensouled and not likely to kill a "good guy".
I love when they fill in the back story(bummed they couldn't get Julie Benz) and all those scenes were perfect. I think this is the first time where they definitively stated that Angel and Dru were intimate, I think it's only been hinted at in the past.
This whole Buffy subtext is getting stickier every episode.
Loved the pop references, Spike listening to the DK's, Mountain Dew in the chalice, Gunn's toy robot collection.
Except for the scene at the beginning where Eve had some rather clunky dialogue to speak to set up the episode I would give it an "A".

vpecoraro | November 20, 21:41 CET

Loved the pop references, Spike listening to the DK's, Mountain Dew in the chalice, Gunn's toy robot collection.

Hee-hee - I saw pop and I saw Mountain Dew there and I was wondering what the heck the DKs and toy robots had to do with soft drinks!
Yes, I'm from Ohio. What can I say?

Oh, and about the flashback scenes: DB must be working with a dialog coach or something (that or I'm getting used to him) because his Irish accent hardly made me cringe at all, except reflexively when he first opened his mouth. Then I was like, Hey! What happened here? He almost sounds Irish or something.

But what do I know -- I'm from Ohio.

melsta | November 20, 21:51 CET

Thanks, Robo-Ritter! I have to say, it's been entertaining watching the reruns and the new season at the same time. The Lindsey overlap is just great timing....

fraying | November 20, 22:08 CET

Also, yeah, I assumed all the tattoos and wall doodles were some sort of invisibility cloak to keep him a secret from the Powers and the Senior Partners.

Plus, yaknow, badass!

fraying | November 20, 22:10 CET

I never was a big Lindsey fan, but it's always good to see a familiar face return after all this time.

I'm not from Ohio, but what have the robots to do with 'pop'?

Caroline | November 20, 22:33 CET

In the U.S. Midwest soft-drinks (like Mountain Dew) are known as "pop".

The original post was referring to pop-culture, melsta got confused.

ringworm | November 20, 22:35 CET

Yes, I meant Pop Culture, thanks.

vpecoraro | November 20, 22:52 CET

Soda is popularly called "pop" in Canada as well.

herb | November 20, 23:30 CET

Now that the pop issue has been straightened out, someone is going to have to explain to me the phonetic difference between DUE and DOO. I'm an American who wouldn't have the first clue about the subtleties of British accents, but I'm confused because I pronounce due, doo, and dew the same.

Scott | November 20, 23:37 CET

Think Southern. You know how they always manage to add an extra syllable to monosyllabic words, e.g., they-ah for there, etc.?

Imagine my little old grandma in North Carolina talking about all of the "dee-oo on the gray-ass in the mo-ahning". That's sort of like how Spike should have said dew. But not as drawn out -- just one syllable.

Did that help at all? Or did that just "pop" us right back into confusion?

melsta | November 21, 00:10 CET

Popped me back into confusion and I looked and sounded real silly sitting here saying out loud the "dee-oo on the gray-ass in the mo-ahning" But thanks anyways for trying to clear it up! I'm from Massachusetts and we have our own way of saying things in what others might consider a strange manner ;^)

[ edited by blwessels on 2003-11-20 22:41 ]

Firefly Flanatic | November 21, 00:41 CET

djue...

I knew pop was soda was softdrink.
Still don't get the robots.
Oh I see, someone else got confused before me. Phew!

(I didn't get the El diablo robotico thing either. I now understand it's the title of a film. Or is it...)

Caroline | November 21, 01:12 CET

Soda is also called pop in Scotland from what I can remember from my Broon Family and Our Willie comic strips.

Simon | November 21, 01:16 CET

It's like everyone suddenly began speaking in about a dozen disparate foreign languages... :o

Haunt | November 21, 01:20 CET

I don't think El Diablo Robotico was a movie. It was funny (a) because the devil building a robot is ridiculous and (b) Wesley's reaction to the mentioning of said robot was almost reverential with nostalgia.

Gunn's toy robot collection is funny because (a) Toy robots were a pretty big part of the whole '80's childhood thing in America, and (b) It's kind of ludicrous that an African-American-vampire-hunter-from-the-streets turned big-brained-lawyer should own a toy robot collection.

ringworm | November 21, 01:22 CET

I really liked lasts nights ep. I was excited to Lindsey, I hated to seem him go to begin with, I loved his evil good, evil good thing. Besides he's hot. I also noticed that DB's Irish accent is better.
Sort of on the same note, I swear DB said "supposeBly" in season two, (can't remember what ep), but it's the one where they had brought Darla back as human and her and DB are talking to Wesley and Cordelia in the hotel telling them about Darla having TB. Someone else watch it and see if it's me. Not that it's a big deal, but it made me giggle

lisi | November 21, 01:27 CET

I've come across several big name webloggers who appear to collect robots. I didn't get it then, don't get it now.

Maybe I'm just too old and too not American.

Caroline | November 21, 01:48 CET

Is it just me, or do we get off topic incredably easy around here? And in what time zone is the times? wow did I just make that sentance.

400lb_Gorilla | November 21, 02:02 CET

The time is CET. Central European Time.

Caroline | November 21, 03:33 CET

Robots are kewl.

[ edited by fraying on 2003-11-21 01:41 ]

fraying | November 21, 03:40 CET

Ahhhhhhh, that's why it was confusing me. Thanks.
and on the subject of robots, they always creeped me out. Don't know why. Just do. Hmmmmmm

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2003-11-21 01:43 ]

400lb_Gorilla | November 21, 03:40 CET

not to bring up the spoiled subject again but... I think it is very possible that the IMDB lists the role as "Sean" because the show listed the role as Sean in an effort to keep Lindsay's return a secret. Obviously fans know Christian Kane's name, so it would be a weak effort to hide the spoiler, but the IMDB sources are notoriously inaccurate at times, and if the show had been listing the character name as Sean in early scripts and other material to keep the secret, that may be how that name became attached to Kane's in the IMDB credits.

Loved this episode!

sioux | November 21, 04:06 CET

This season is not going the way I thought it would go. Here's me thinking we would see less complicated story lines, more floaty light episodes with everything getting resolved at the end of the episode and a year zero approach to attract new viewers. Joss and his fellow writers' comments before the season premiere led me right up the garden path :).

In some respects, this season is turning out to be even more complex and epic than last season.

Simon | November 21, 04:36 CET

yeah, i'm completely at loss re: all those comments about this season being all light and bubbly. i was preparing for the worse. I SURE AM GLAD THAT IT"S THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE!!!

rsfayez | November 21, 08:13 CET

Again, I never quite got that from the comments -- it seemed that ME thought that the balance was out of whack between stand-alone and arc and sought to remedy that. I think they're doing a great job so far.

brother_grady | November 21, 19:50 CET

For what it's worth, IMDB now lists Kane's character as Lindsey McDonald. Since this has now already aired, I'm assuming that spoiler warnings and invisible text are no longer needed.

[ edited by prolific on 2003-11-21 20:17 ]

unreality | November 21, 21:58 CET

Still needed, unreality, the spoilers we're talking about pan out over various episodes.

Caroline | November 21, 22:18 CET

And I dub this thread, the second longest ever Whedonesque thread. But anyway. Finally watched 'Destiny'. Loved it :). Two minor quibbles though. Lack of budget so we don't see Gunn staring into the abyss so to speak and the bride in the carriage. Was she supposed to be dead or alive. As I assumed she was dead but she kept blinking an awful lot.

I want Christian Kane as this season's big bad.

Simon | November 22, 01:35 CET

simon, i figured the bride was alive, but too dazed w/ blood loss and fright to be able to do anything about her condition. i didn't think vamps liked their meals dead.

leenah | November 22, 01:55 CET

I must say, an excellent ep overall, WAY intense, just the way i like it, but the fight between spike and angel (while the choreography was good)i thought it was needlessly bloody. although i did read the spoiler, the ending was still great, the anticipation was killing me... things are getting interesting! :)

buffyfanatic18 | November 22, 07:24 CET

needlesly bloody? Were they to tickle each other till one relented?

Simpleba | November 22, 09:46 CET

I know I'm a deviant now. For the first time in my life, I found profusely bleeding noses to be sexy.

lalaa | November 22, 09:54 CET

ok, needlessly was the wrong word, perhaps just a little overly bloody? i mean, yeah, they weren't supposed to tickle eachother death, it was a fight that had been brewing for centuries.

buffyfanatic18 | November 22, 20:42 CET

Simon, I'm right there with you on the bride thing. I was like "huh?"

I just watched this ep and it was great. I think I built my expectations a little too high so I was slightly disappointed when first finishing it but now I'm coming off of that and loving the episode.

At first I was unhappy that the cup was a fake but then, as has been stated here, the prophecy is not something that can be taken care of in one episode.

Unfortunately I was spoiled about CK coming back... stuck my head in this thread after the ep aired ... and I wish I hadn't been but it was still cool to see him! :)

Great ep!

lyn | November 23, 00:41 CET

I just thought the bride was in shock.

lalaa | November 23, 00:54 CET

Yeah come to think of it, do vampires drink from corpses in the Buffyverse? And regarding the prophecy it's going to be fulfilled in such a way that we don't expect. I wouldn't expect anything less from Mutant Enemy.

And btw ladies and gentlemen this now officially Whedonesque's longest ever thread.

Simon | November 23, 02:28 CET

Me, I'd have been disappointed if the cup had been real - waaay too convenient.

[ edited by melsta on 2003-11-23 00:40 ]

melsta | November 23, 02:40 CET

Well, in a season 6 episode when Drusilla came back, they went to the Bronze and she killed a guy or girl or whatever so he coud drink from them... so... I guess it's dependent on the situation.

Yay longest thread!

lyn | November 24, 18:30 CET