Huh. That was very interesting. Learned a few things I didn't know about Buffy and this was a pretty entertaining interview as well.

Nicole | July 01, 17:13 CET

This is awesome. He is absolutely right about that storyline inverting the cliche and expresses it very well.

Sunfire | July 01, 17:16 CET

Yeah, the "inverting the cliche" is probably the most interesting sound byte from this interview--I'd never really thought about it that way, as I'd always more or less thought that this plot development existed independently of the dead lesbian cliche, not in ironic response to it. Something to ponder.

And anyway, good interview. DZG is not my favourite writer on the show, but he's written two episodes I really love--"Smashed" and "Entropy"--and "The Killer in Me" has its moments.

WilliamTheB | July 01, 17:44 CET

Good interview. I'm not sure that the plot was intended to invert the cliche or if it just did, in typical Jossian fashion, but either way this is the best answer to that I've ever seen.

Lioness | July 01, 19:00 CET

Nice interview! I love to read about how other writer's make choices. I can't wait for more.

RE: the concrete

Well, you know the military loses stuff all the time. Big stuff. Heck in this case, they didn't even know that Adam had a whole secret lab/headquarters. I'm sure a missed batch of concrete by the lowest paid contractor is reasonable. Of course it could just be that two years later, the job was still up before the committee and none of the bids had as yet been accepted.

BreathesStory | July 01, 19:40 CET

I never worried about the concrete, it is very easy to say 'fill it in w/concrete and salt the earth' (or whatever) it is another thing to get funding to do all that for a failed project which will never produce any benefit to anyone. Look at all the empty missile silos the military has left out in the desert!

embers | July 01, 21:41 CET

I don't know, I think it would've been cool if Joss had started bringin' the rhyme. ;)

The more I hear about it, the more I'm glad I wasn't around at the end of season six. It sounds like it was way more volatile than I'm used to in a fandom. Then again, I was also around for season three of Torchwood, so I've seen more than a bit of nastiness in my time. I'm just glad that Joss and co. were able to stick to their guns, no matter what the backlash was from the fans.

deepgirl187 | July 01, 21:59 CET

Great interview. I really like how Greenberg responded to the Dead Lesbian Cliche complaint, especially how he described Tara and her role on the show. I still think her death was shocking for all the right reasons.

Saturn Girl | July 01, 22:04 CET

Daaaaamn, what a closing comment from DZG on that particular post-'Seeing Red' Willow/Tara fan conniption, the 'Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche.' In a half-decent mediasphere his explanation would pretty much close the book on that laughable reduction. Then again, in a half-decent world 'BP' would stand for 'Billionaire Problems' and I WOULD HAVE THEM.

waxbanks | July 02, 03:11 CET

Excellent (part of an) interview, i'm hoping 'Clone Wars' will come up just because i'm curious as to how involved with that Drew Z was. And I must admit, I hadn't particularly noticed enough lesbian characters dying for it to have its own cliche but yep, his answer pretty much sums it up for me. Guy talks sense.

I'm not sure though, has TV got better at depicting casual drinking of umbrella drinks ? I mean sure, there's been progress but I think there's still a long way to go (they're still often used for a bit of visual comedy for instance, with the umbrella going up a character's nose).

Then again, I was also around for season three of Torchwood, so I've seen more than a bit of nastiness in my time.

Didn't everyone pretty much love 'Children of Earth' ? It was a big success over here anyway.


ETA: Nevermind, my morning addled synapses have made the (fairly obvious - stupid morning ;) connection. It's the Ianto thing right ? Yeah, fan response to that was fairly ridiculous (so much so that it became hilarious IMO - the funniest accusation I saw flying around was that Russell T Davies was homophobic ;).

[ edited by Saje on 2010-07-02 07:34 ]

Saje | July 02, 07:26 CET

I think a lot of flak was directed at how they portrayed Jack as well. There was a lot of outcry about the seemingly OOCness of it all.

Simon | July 02, 09:23 CET

I dunno, to me any darkness within Jack seems pretty reasonable now, given his experiences (I mean, if you don't end up a bit twisted after being buried alive for, what was it, 2,000 years ?! then i'd say you're basically untwistable). And there've always been two Jacks anyway, Who Jack is lighter and more happy-go-lucky than 'Torchwood' Jack (partly, i've always assumed, because he doesn't have the weight of the world on his shoulders in 'Doctor Who', he's not the place where the buck stops because there's, y'know, a Doctor in the house ;).

Still, makes me glad that I basically ignore most fan responses to most things i'm a fan of.

Saje | July 02, 10:30 CET

Same here. Especially once you become apart of multiple fandoms; there's only so much emotional energy you can give. I can certainly understand why people would be outraged that a character who they loved and symbolized something so important would elicit such a response, but there has to be limits as well. Everyone should just recite the MST3K mantra and chill out. ;)

deepgirl187 | July 02, 14:06 CET

I was around at the time but I was only on UPN's Threaded Bronze and we had more of a dynamic of "a bunch of friends sitting around the living room talking about it" than any really emotional stuff. (I miss that bunch, *sob; .)

I like Drew's take on the matter but I'm sorry, it doesn't close the book in any real sense. The simple fact that the Willow-Tara relationship wasn't "business as usual" as per old Barbara Stanwyck movies made the ending of "Seeing Red" feel like an outright, well, betrayal, which ended a lot of people's capacity for remaining fans. And despite the prior subversion of the cliche, this devlopment played back into it, and with it beign stilla new thing many folks couldn't help their reaction. (I admit I stuck around a while longer but not more than a couple years, and neither the comics nor Dollhouse have changed my mind.)

DaddyCatALSO | July 02, 17:48 CET

I vaguely remember reading about an old civil rights activist standing in a reception line a few years ago and having a folksy younger southern politician greet him using his first name. The politician was doing this with everyone in the line. The man was horribly upset by the incident and said the politician should have known better, because using his first name was a form of humiliation. He had lived through the time when southerners always used blacks' first names as a way to denigrate them, while being more formal with whites they didn't know as a sign of respect.

So, even though the southern politician was inverting the old way of doing things and treating the older man equally by using his first name (for which I don't fault him at all), his benevolent intent couldn't overcome the raw,visceral pain his greeting provoked. And it never did, as far as I know.

I don't think anybody will ever be able to reason the "Joss betrayed us" people out of their response either, as much as I think Joss did the right thing and that Greenberg is correct. As DaddyCatALSO said, folks couldn't help their reaction. Time plus social progress is the only way out of this kind of no-win situation. I do think ten years from now, first-time viewers of the show will rarely have the sense of bitterness that some people had at the time. And still have, obviously.

shambleau | July 03, 08:18 CET

Word. Or. This.

Simon | July 03, 09:21 CET

Word. Or. This.

That just doesn't sound right coming from you, Simon. :)

menomegirl | July 03, 16:58 CET