August 12 2010
SFX Magazine poll - Who is your favourite Vampire of all time?
And while you're at it, vote for your favourite anti-hero too. There's Whedonverse choices galore.
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Sigfodr | August 12, 16:13 CET
| August 12, 16:26 CET
These polls are impossible! It's like trying to cast your fantasy fiction team. ARRGH! (Face? Meet desk. You two are going to become very good friends.)
BreathesStory | August 12, 16:27 CET
BrendaHB | August 12, 16:33 CET
PS: Float your cursor over 'nod'.
brinderwalt | August 12, 16:38 CET
DaddyCatALSO | August 12, 16:47 CET
My votes were Han Solo, Buffy, Batman, Death, Bender, Spock, Giles, Rorschach, Darth Vader and Mitchell.
NotaViking | August 12, 17:10 CET
That one was dead easy until about half-way down. Avon and Gully Foyle ? And then Rorschach and Slippery Jim his own self ? And then V ? How choose ? Went with Gully in the end cos if I didn't he might kill me filthy and I wouldn't want that (being named after one of my favourite book shops doesn't hurt either).
Vampire was Darla because the other Whedonverse entrants will be getting plenty of votes from their respective contingents and Jessica's too new a character to really judge properly yet.
Saje | August 12, 17:13 CET
NotaViking | August 12, 17:29 CET
Hero: The Doctor (love Wesley & Mal more, but if I were in trouble, I'd definitely call The Doctor)
Heroine: Buffy
Robot: Data (should've been Cameron, but I spent so much more time with Data...)
Vampire: Spike
Anti-hero: Rorschach
Superhero: Batman
Sage: Giles
Alien: Spock
Villain: Gaius Baltar (smarmy for the evil win!)
Monster link isn't working for me.
jcs | August 12, 17:45 CET
I don't usually care about these polls, but the anti-hero category sucked me in...
... and then I stayed for a few others.
Vamp: I havered between Spike and Dru, and went with Dru. She just tickled me so much.
Monster: I went with the Cybermen for a sorta twisted reason - I hate them so much, but mostly 'cause of the awfulness of Torchwood episode 4. (And Aslan was a monster? Really? Oh, I don't know about that... and Lorne was a stretch, too. I don't think monster means what you think it means...)
Superhero: Gaiman's Death
Alien: Spock. Hands down. I'll always love you, baby.
Sage: Giles. This one was tough, and I almost hit Dumbley-dore, but... he annoyed me more than Giles did, though I love them both: so Giles won out.
Villain: Baron Harkonen (Dune). Unredeemed and unredeemable. I love Baltar, but... he's closer to, though not exactly, anti-hero for me. Gaius gets a bum rap from folks, but I've always thought that seeing him as nothing but an out-and-out villain kindof missed the point. I almost picked Voldemort. Note: I think Her Imperial Majesty, Jadis, Queen of Narnia, Chatelaine of Cair Paravel, Empress of the Lone Islands should have been on that poll.
Hero: Our Captain Mal (tho, yeah, jcs - for a big apocalypse-y problem, I'd definitely want Dr. Who on my side.)
Heroine: Our Buffster
QuoterGal | August 12, 19:11 CET
jclemens | August 12, 19:14 CET
Well, Wesley's great and all, but he usually has really, really bad luck. Also, when the pressure's on, he starts thinking about the big picture and begins to see people as expendable assets. While I can appreciate that, I'd rather rely on Mal and his 'leave no man behind' attitude. Oh, wait - Mal would probably just shoot me and save himself the trouble... *sigh*
You know what, I'll just vote for the Doctor. Sure, he would probably be more concerned with saving the entire universe than just little ol' me, but I'm sure he would try his darndest.
Egghead | August 12, 19:25 CET
Vampire......Selene (Because she was Just. So. Cool.)
Hero.........Mal (Because he keeps getting back up, even when emotionally battered)
Heroine......Emma Peel (Absolute torture, that one)
Superhero/comic book character....Death (Because Storm wasn't available, dammit.)
Anti-hero....Tank Girl (She just does it for me.)
Villain......Scorpius (Because though Lucas brainwashed me early, Scorpius truly creeped me out)
Monster etc..Death (I can't believe they made me choose between Death and the Aliens!)
Alien........Chiana (Because Alien Resurrection Ripley wasn't available. Forget the rest of the movie. Sigourney Weaver was amazingly other.)
Robot etc....HAL (Because the know-it-all AI prickles my spine.)
Sage etc.....Alfred Pennyworth (Because he's always on your side, compassionate, tells it like it is (politely), and doesn't keep information from you for your own good.)
1. These polls definitely needed a sidekick category, if you ask me. (I want my Zoe!)
2. I surprised myself by the lack of Whedon verse characters. I think it's because their true power for me, is the chemistry of how they rub up against each other.
3. Now if I was really going to cast a fiction team, I would try and balance out the personalities and capabilities a little better. Also, that's an awful lot of alphas. (Joss has my sympathies with the Avengers gig.) And I really wouldn't need two incarnations of Death, after all. One is plenty. ~_^
4. You know, there probably ought to be a fantasy fiction league with positions to be cast and missions played out. I can't quite envision how the point system would work though...
5. Just so you know, I'm trying mightily to keep the cork wedged in the plot bunny bottle... ...I don't think it's working.
6. If you can't access the monster/creatures/supernatural beings poll via the link, I got to it from a site search using the words "monster" and "poll."
BreathesStory | August 12, 19:27 CET
All over the map, that. I have pleased myself with my own geekery. Most fun I've had today!
Kairos | August 12, 19:34 CET
That makes sense of some of the inclusions (like Rincewind and Lister), but it's still an odd mixture.
Rincewind's the hero of (most of) the stories he appears in and yet he's a coward, he's selfish, he's incompetent in more or less every way (except not dying which, granted, is a very handy skill to have ;) and he's not big or strong or particularly kind or noble. That's pretty close to the definition of an anti-hero in my book.
For me, of the characters I know on there, the least fitting are Gene Hunt (he's just a hero IMO albeit, these days, not a very PC one - so to speak ;), Snape and Zachary Smith (who's pretty much just a villain, albeit a fairly ineffectual one - from my distant memories of the original 'Lost in Space' that is). Lister fits anti-hero (or hero or certainly slacker/accidental good guy) as does Rimmer, Doctor Horrible's an anti-hero, as is Jayne (albeit with a heart of gold and great taste in hats ;). Vila could fit anti-hero I suppose but he arguably shouldn't be on there (it's only just occurred to me but isn't he the only male character from "Blake's 7" that we know by his first name ? Kerr Avon, Roj Blake, Del Tarrant and Olag - yes I did have to google that - Gan. And yet all the women were known by first names - Dayna, Jenna, Cally, Soo-Lin. Coincidence or profound cosmic conspiracy ?).
Saje | August 12, 19:36 CET
[ edited by Deanna_Lynne on 2010-08-12 20:13 ]
Deanna_Lynne | August 12, 20:12 CET
I'd better start working out more. And maybe take up tumbling and target practice, while I work on getting either one of those invisibility cloaks or a ticket to the next solar system.
Well, there is all the sir-ing and defer-ing, not to mention the following... So yeah, maybe it really is more of a command chain relationship between an officer and their chief NCO, which strictly speaking, isn't exactly a hero/sidekick relationship. I figure sidekick's probably the closest category in terms of voting though, so it can match the hyper accuracy of the other category titles. ~_^
*holds up hands* No offense intended, Zoe!
ETA: sarcasm
[ edited by BreathesStory on 2010-08-12 20:44 ]
BreathesStory | August 12, 20:38 CET
This is Zoe we're talking about. Get both ;).
True enough, you could probably have a category "Best Second in Command" or some such (Zoe, Riker ... ?) but "Sidekick" seems more in keeping. It's just like that short Star Trek skirt from last week in that I can imagine her expression.
(No. 1, XO or maybe more bosun ? Yeah, Zoe's like Harper to Mal's Sharpe I reckon - started as his sergeant, became his friend, willingly stayed his subordinate. Though technically, Mal was a sergeant too right ? So originally she must just've deferred to him because he was the one who ended up leading when their commissioned officers either died or had breakdowns at Serenity Valley. Interesting to know whether he stepped up because of seniority or just because he was most suited/willing)
Saje | August 12, 21:27 CET
NotaViking | August 12, 21:46 CET
So I'm going to put down the "sir" thing as an Alliance/Browncoat verse specific anomaly. It did express brilliantly in one word, a spectrum of complexity. Although... on third thinking, if their Officer died, Mal would become the de facto officer... So the "sir" thing makes complete sense! Yea! Sense making! *whew*
And yeah, I was definitely thinking of Sharpe and Harper as being the closest to the Mal/Zoe relationship.
BreathesStory | August 12, 22:14 CET
But the main reason i wrote a comment is to ask you to support Summer Glau in another poll.
On the EW.com Sexy Beast bracket game, Summer Glau managed to reach the semifinale and she will face Edward from Twilight.
She doesn't stand a chance without the Whedonverse showing some support.
The matchup should come out in 7 hours at this link :
http://popwatch.ew.com/
chris66 | August 12, 22:42 CET
quantumac | August 12, 23:22 CET
brinderwalt | August 12, 23:32 CET
Yeah, you might be right. May have to watch the pilot again but she might even be referred to as Corp or Corporal at one point (or maybe it's in 'The Message', with Tracey). So Mal was the sergeant and Zoe his corporal.
But I much prefer the commonly understood meaning to the dictionary definition. It's too wide - every central character that lacks the traditional heroic attributes is an anti-hero.
See, until it popped up on here (not this time, one of the previous times quite a while back) to me the dictionary definition was the commonly understood meaning (because that's, y'know, what it means ;). The reason some people don't agree with it (IMO) is that too many folk have seen TV/film anti-heroes and just assumed "Oh, it's being a bit dark and ruthless that makes you an anti-hero" because mercy for one's enemies is usually one of the easiest heroic qualities to ditch while still clearly being a hero (i.e. it's harder to get rid of courage or competence and still present a character as a hero because we're so wrapped up in the traditional heroic qualities). In other words anti-heroes in TV/film are very much limited by our conception of what a hero is. That's why Rincewind is indeed a more or less perfect anti-hero because apart from actually being the one that saves the day - i.e. the hero - he has virtually no heroic qualities at all. From the Discworld books someone like e.g. CMOT Dibbler would be just unheroic since he doesn't have heroic qualities and doesn't save the day.
It's a spectrum though I think, with Rincewind very close to the anti-hero extreme and e.g. Mal very close to the traditional hero end. And wherever there're arbitrary lines there's room for honest disagreement ;).
Saje | August 13, 07:48 CET
Actually Mal was a pretty easy choice, as well.
I totally disagree with Baltar being in the Villain category, especially considering the other villainous choices. I really think he fits more into anti-hero territory. So I went with The Joker. Since the pic was of Heath Ledger, I was voting more for the actor than the character.
I loved that they included the B5 aliens, G'kar is definitely my all-time favorite alien.
This "boffin" thing is making me tear my hair out. Who made up this word anyhow,when I wasn't looking and without consulting me, and how do they blend it in with sages and mentors? Topher in the same category as Gandalf and Giles and Dumbeldore? WTF??
I refuse to recognize the existence of this word, it makes NO sense. Which will possibly last even longer than my refusal to type "SyFy" :_)
So ... sorry Giles, had to go with Gandalf.
Since this is SFX, Dr. Who characters will probably win in every category they're in, anyhow. And yet, I can't resist voting in these polls. :)
Shey | August 13, 13:11 CET
DaddyCatALSO | August 13, 13:28 CET
Saje | August 13, 14:06 CET
The meaning of words changes over time anyway. For now, I'd just rather use the word "wrongly". ;)
NotaViking | August 13, 17:12 CET
Mileage varies though and 'anti-hero' will probably go the way of 'begging the question' ;).
(except in this case there's very little reason for it. People getting "begging the question" wrong - through ignorance/laziness/an unfamiliarity with Google/etc. ;) - is annoying BUT totally understandable IMO, the "wrong" meaning - of basically "raises the question" - is actually more intuitive given the phrase itself, although we're still losing a subtle distinction between "circular reasoning" and "begging the question" it makes sense to me for that phrase's meaning to change in common usage. But "anti-hero" practically has its meaning built into the word - it's a hero who's in many ways the opposite of a hero, an "anti-hero". So that's harder to get)
Saje | August 14, 09:21 CET
I certainly prefer that definition, because I do think that anti-heroes should be a subcategory of heroes. (You get into the problem of who is a hero though. Rimmer, for example, is so lacking in heroic characteristics that I can't class him as a hero, so he can't be an anti-hero.) I just want to make that definition more specific. It is the abundance of "dark" heroes that has caused people to use anti-hero to describe them, but I think that's the same thing that justifies it. We could really do with a term for this pretty sizeable category (and not "dark heroes" cause that's terrible ;). I've never thought "I really need a word for a hero that lacks one or more unspecified heroic attributes, but I don't have one, damn", so I can't see the travesty in changing it's meaning to one that I've used plenty of times.
I think the fact that the category is called "Anti-Heroes, Slackers & Accidental Good Guys" is actually an acknowledgement that plenty of people don't see the latter two types as anti-heros. As I was saying originally, it's a odd mix of characters. They're very different from each other and I don't see the usefulness of having one category cover them all.
Anyway that's all I want to say on the subject (probably more). Last word to you if you want to add anything.
[ edited by NotaViking on 2010-08-14 15:45 ]
NotaViking | August 14, 15:41 CET
(pity, was enjoying the discussion)
But as I just said, the dictionary definition of an anti-hero doesn't require the character be a hero.
he·ro
–noun,plural-roes; for 5 also -ros.
1.
a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
an·ti·he·ro
–noun,plural-roes.
a protagonist who lacks the attributes that make a heroic figure, as nobility of mind and spirit, a life or attitude marked by action or purpose, and the like.
pro·tag·o·nist
–noun
1.
the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
Fair point, it doesn't require it BUT it doesn't preclude it either (the protagonist can be the hero, they just don't need to be). I've been using 'hero' and 'protagonist' interchangeably (as in 'hero' definition no. 3 above but non-gender specific) which is sloppy and confusing.
I certainly prefer that definition, because I do think that anti-heroes should be a subcategory of heroes.
Hmm, a subcategory of heroes that, somewhat paradoxically, doesn't have some/most/any of the qualities of a hero. To me that's different enough to be worth acknowledging and by making the distinction we highlight interesting questions about what it means to be a hero (the continuum rather than black/white nature of it etc.). Where's the line ? IMO there's an interesting tension between what we consider civilised behaviour (traditional heroes have many of the characteristics of "civilised people") with what we may actually want to see happen (legal justice is, at its best, a fine and noble thing but it's surely not as satisfying as the wilder kind that e.g. Mad Max metes out). And also between the heroic ideal and what's actually possible in the real world (I think most people would consider "dark" heroes to be more realistic for instance - to me BTW the abundance of "dark" heroes makes them just heroes, they're so common that you can almost say that's just what a hero is nowadays. As I say above though, the line between dark heroes and anti-heroes is fuzzy, as with all arbitrary categories).
I think the fact that the category is called "Anti-Heroes, Slackers & Accidental Good Guys" is actually an acknowledgement that plenty of people don't see the latter two types as anti-heros.
Well yeah, neither do I ;). I never claimed slackers and accidental good guys are the same thing as anti-heroes (I also mentioned the poor choice of category when this poll was first posted last week in relation to "Sages, Boffins and Mentors" - sages and mentors in one category I can buy but boffins are different enough that they shouldn't be lumped together IMO). There's some overlap but plenty of differences.
It means any central character other than a typical hero. It's so vague that I don't think we need a specific term for it.
Well, employing your reasoning above, i'd say that the fact that there's a separate "Villain" category shows that plenty of people see a distinction ;). I'd also add that without a separate word/sub-category then you're simply rendering the category hero as broad/vague as you see the definition of anti-hero (i.e. if "heroes" also includes "characters lacking heroic qualities" without in some way distinguishing them then what does it even mean ?).
Saje | August 15, 00:13 CET