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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"See how I'm not punchin' him? I think I've grown."
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August 18 2010

Joss talks about his work writing on Captain America. Hells yeah. I just made that expression up. This confirms the rumour from April 15th, fact fans.

Very cool! Makes me even more excited for Captain America.

Side note -- where did they get that pic of Joss from? It's approximately 12 years old. Wow.
Excellent. I love a cohesive story.
God, I would love to get a look at the before and after. *salivates*
This franchise just got vastly more promising.
Joss's involvement makes me feel invested in this part of the Marvel universe. So I've been itching to catch up and watch the Iron Man movies and The Incredible Hulk.

At first (not having knowledge of comics) these vastly different Super heroes in the same movie sounded like a little much and a little cheesy. Whedon's involvement made it a must watch though. Every time I here news about these movies I get more excited. And the more I learn about Iron Man, Captain America, Thor and the Hulk; the more I can't wait.

I'll almost be as excited about the Captain America movie as The Avengers. It'll definitely keep me sated on my wait for the Avengers. Then there's Thor of course, which naturally I love the themes revolving around his character. I might become a huge comic book fan soon enough.
It makes me very happy to know that he's working on connecting what comes before with what comes later. That'll make the whole thing more enjoyable, I reckon.

Question, though, to all the comics fans and/or folks who know more than I do: How exactly is it that the eponymous superhero from a film set in the forties can co-exist with Iron Man and Hulk, who definitely exist in the now? I mean, I know *how* that can happen. Obviously, Captain America *could* be a ninety-something year old man in The Avengers, but I suspect Chris Evans isn't co-starring in a huge movie all olded up, so...? Also, while I'm clearly outing myself as the dumb and uninformed guy, is Thor actually, well, Thor? Like, the actual, y'know, *Thor* Thor? If so, why is he here and joining a group of human and scientifically-altered human superheroes?

Like I said, I really don't know what the what is, so please be kind with your explanations. Thanks.
XanMan, in the comics Cap gets frozen in ice and is revived in the present day.
Wait a second... in Speed Joss changed it so the patient lived?
XanMan, from what I understand, Thor is Thor, but Thor is not what people think Thor is.
Thor was sent to earth by his father Odin as punishment. He was placed into the body of a human and had some of his memories taken away. Eventually he rediscovered who he was but had fallen in love by that time and decided to stay. Later he joined with the Avengers, and if I remember correctly, spent most of his time fighting alien menaces.

Captain America was created by the U.S. military in WWII using a super soldier serum. He is stronger and faster etc... but theoretically only to the limits of human ability and endurance. He is deeply patriotic and very much the goody goody like Superman or Spiderman. Near the end of WWII he went down in an experimental plane and was frozen in ice. Later he was revived by the Avengers and became their leader. He was able to survive because of his exceptional serum-induced physical abilities.

(In real life, after WWII ended, the character lost popularity and was discontinued. The ice thing was how they explained his disappearance and unaged reemergence when they brought the character back in later comics)

Also, I believe that after several scripts going back and forth for WWII vs. modern era vs. some sort of hybrid, the studio finally decided to keep the movie entirely in WWII.

I imagine that the movie will end with Cap falling into icy waters as the Allies declare final victory. Then after the credits, a modern era Tony Stark expedition will find a frozen almost recognizable body in a block of ice somewhere. Gives the kind of teaser Marvel likes and provides an easy path for character exposition at the opening of The Avengers as disparate team members look upon the legend that could unite and lead them.
So Cap's the leader of the Avengers right? Do you think he will be the leader in the movie? That will seem pretty odd. He wakes up after 70 years as a popsicle (now I'm imagining an Austin Powers type montage of Cap re-discovering the world once they defrost him ;)) and then starts telling Tony Stark and Nick Fury what to do?
Is he actually the leader now though ? I thought it was more Iron Man.

That aside, I think the idea of them not having a clear leader, of all these alpha type personalities jockeying for position and establishing a pecking order (and possibly reaching a point where they realise they don't need one) is going to be one of the more dramatically interesting aspects of the Avengers movie.

Liking what Joss says about joining the dots, Marvel have certainly got the right idea in that respect IMO. One of the strengths of comics from the big two is their respective massive universes, the idea that this is a sort of persistent consensus reality with a life of its own and Marvel really seem to be embracing that (whereas DC seem to see it as only an encumbrance - which, in fairness, it also is. 70+ years of continuity makes for a lot of kruft).
I think it will be Nick Furry (played by Samuel L. Jackson) that brings them together and initially is the lead. However, I don't think he will be on the ground when things are happening and that Captain America eventually takes the lead. He might be out of his time, but he still is more of a natural leader. Iron Man as seen in the first two movies, isn't as much of a team player wanting to do everything himself.

Marvel did an Ultimate Avengers animated movie that was straight to DVD a couple of years ago. It starts the same way as it sounds like Joss' Avengers will start in finding Captain America. If anyone wants to see a different take on how that story can play together, go check out that movie. It's actually pretty well done animated movie.
It make sense to have Joss work on the script for Captain America since Captain America leads into his film.

Some set photos from Captain America just leaked yesterday too.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2010-08-18 14:21 ]
Saje, Iron Man was a second tier character before the movies (and the AWESOME "Civil War" books, where he's a total prick) so no, he definitely wasn't the leader.
It definitely will be interesting to see how they introduce Cap to the present and the Avengers, whether they do it during his movie or take the time during the Avengers.
So...does anyone know if you have to see all the "previously" movies in order to get what's going on in "The Avengers"? 'cause...that's a lot of movies to watch & process just so I can watch TA.
Saje, Iron Man was a second tier character before the movies (and the AWESOME "Civil War" books, where he's a total prick) so no, he definitely wasn't the leader.

Cool, ta E-Rawk (yeah, not a big Marvel reader so I was largely thinking of 'Civil War' where he was the main pro-registration character and Captain America was the sort of moral compass of the group. As befits the name and the character, he represented the ideal of America rather than the politically expedient pro-torture side - IMO anyway. Clearly he had to die ;).
So...does anyone know if you have to see all the "previously" movies in order to get what's going on in "The Avengers"? 'cause...that's a lot of movies to watch & process just so I can watch TA.


I don't of course know, but I highly doubt it because:

1. it's not in the studio's best interest to make it inaccessible to a potential audience
2. It's Joss and he structured "Serenity" specifically so that people finding the verse for the first time could enjoy it.

I do imagine that it would add to the richness of the experience though--and the studio's bank balance. ~_^
Thanks, everybody. It actually all sounds really interesting, the Thor and Captain America stuff. Seriously, someone should make a movie with these guys. :)

firexfred - My apologies if I'm missing the "wink-wink" sarcastic nature of your post, but just in case, I'll clarify. I believe what the author meant was that, with Speed as the "patient" for Joss' script doctor, the "patient" lived, whereas with Waterworld as the "patient," the "patient" died. Meaning Speed was good times; Waterworld, not to much.
Nick Fury already has a secretive gov't organization to run and Iron Man, well who would want him as their leader? They both exert great influence, of course, but they normally do so in a manipulative coercive way.

I was just picking Cap as leader because he is an legendary "outsider" to the current mix of heroes, and one with a solid resume as moral compass. That said, the push and pull of the different egos is quintessential to the success (and humor) of the movie. That is why Joss is perfect for the job.

[ edited by lottalettuce on 2010-08-18 20:59 ]

[ edited by lottalettuce on 2010-08-18 21:00 ]

[ edited by lottalettuce on 2010-08-18 21:01 ]
Personally I think that while these may be stand alone stories/movies, they will still tie in together. If Joss is script doctoring 'Captain America' (as we know for sure he is) then I expect him to set up things that will pay off in 'the Avengers'. Probably not things you would have to know, but definitely things you would enjoy if you have the continuity. JMPO of course.
In the comics, the Avengers instituted an occasionally rotating chairmanship (among an entire charter and by-laws). While Cap may very well have held the most time in the position, Iron Man has also had stints, as well as the Wasp, Captain Marvel (the African-American Earth woman, not the pale-skinned Kree man); Hawkeye was leader of the West Coast Avengers for most of their existence.... (If anyone really wants more details about how the leadership has worked, I can go dig up some Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe issues.)

It'll be interesting to see how the movie will work the organization of the group - could be quite different, as Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D., while allies of Cap in particular, weren't really part of the traditional Avengers. (Despite going with an "Ultimate" styled Fury, the Marvel U movies so far have generally been closer to the traditional/regular versions of characters and concepts - the Hulk is quite clearly not the Ultimate version, and I would be surprised if Captain America bears much if any resemblence to what I've heard about the Ultimate incarnation.) I do agree that Fury might not be field leader, even if he is the supervisor of "the Avengers Initiative". I guess we'll just have to wait and see - less than two full years now, right?
I was just thinking how much I'd learned from this thread, and then I read your post LKW. Now my head is spinning. :-)
I wonder if Joss will be using any of the unseen "fish out of water" stuff he had in mind for Wonder Woman with Captain America. Wasn't she transported from the 1940's to the current day in more than one comic book (and TV) rendition of her story?
In the Lynda Carter TV show Wonder Woman buggers off back to Themyscira during the S1/2 hiatus and comes back 35 years later (she hasn't got older cos of *waves hands*). To this day she holds the record for longest essay version of "What I Did on My Summer Holidays".

Not sure about the comics though. She definitely appears in WWII in some incarnations and present day in others but I don't know if any of them actually transport her from one to the other or if they're just separate continuities. WW fans ?

(wouldn't surprise me if some of that "fish out of water" stuff made it into Avengers, it's a rich seam for character stuff, both comedy and pathos. Not sure how much of 'Captain America' itself is set in present day though, might not be too much time for it. And if it's e.g. 50/50 then i'd imagine the "fish out of water" element will always have been a part of the film, since before Joss' involvement)
Saje, I think your interpretation is spot-on. Plus, it seemed to me (me being not a big Avengers reader, the X-universe was my playground) that they seemed to prop up Iron Man a little bit more in the comics post-movies anyway. And Ta to you as well.
The cool thing to me is that each of the big 3 are total alphas/leaders in their own areas. Having them together will be electric and has always made the comics so much fun for me. It's just great to hear Joss confirm his hand in Captain America as well. (Thanks for posting this gossi!)

I was actually thinking anyone who came into comics in the last 5 years or so would be of your opinion Saje, as Iron Man was leading almost the whole marvel world of superheros for a period and Cap was "dead" and gone for a while and had his sidekick step up for the roll for a couple years. Not to mention in the films Iron Man came out first and Thor will come out a couple months before Captain America, which would puzzle people seeing the newest guy in the mix going k i'm in charge. I have a feeling they're all going to have that moment but I see Fury coordinating them and pointing them in the right direction.

Yay this is happening!
The article says this is his "first foray" into the Marvel movie universe, but didn't he do some script-fiddling for X-Men a few years back? I remember reading somewhere him being sheepish about being responsible for Storm's awkward one-liner with Toad, but insisting that it wasn't delivered the way he imagined it :)

(or maybe by "Marvel movie universe" they mean only the modern wave of Marvel Studios projects?)
Yeah he did a pass on the first 'X-Men' movie (and 'X-Men: Last Stand' has plot elements from his Astonishing run) and the "You know what happens to a toad when it gets struck by lightning ?" line is his (he apparently had a more flippant, Buffy-esque style of delivery in mind but it's not a great line however you slice it IMO).

(Wolverine's classic "You're a dick" response to Cyclops' identity challenge is also Joss' though apparently so on that basis alone, he's at least even re: his script contribution)

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