This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"I am riding a monsters nostrils. I really should concentrate."
11973 members | you are not logged in | 01 October 2020


August 18 2010

(SPOILER) For the discussion of 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Riley'. The tagline for this Jane Espenson penned Season 8 one shot is "Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin".

I won't have my copy until later today but

No need for the invisible tags. Didn't expect Whistler to make an appearance.
That's assuming it really is Whistler...
Or his mother?
This issue left me with more questions about Riley/Sam than answers, and unfortunately I don't think they will be addressed. Regardless, it was a fine portrait of their marriage. Also, it was nice to see Whistler again although I wish we could have gotten a little more out of him and his scenes.

[ edited by marvelknight616 on 2010-08-18 17:16 ]
Glad to see that Whistler is back. Hopefully he will show up in Last Gleaming
Or his sister, "Hummer"?
@project bitsy
bahahaha...I love it!
Can I just say once more how much I hate having to wait until the weekend to try and find an issue? :)

So, if we're not spoiler-fonting, could someone give me the skinny? Why is Whistler back? What's that have to do with Riley?

What's the deal with Angel? Is he insane or can they salvage the Twilight storyline?

And please tell me Riley/Sam are still alive, well and happy.

(editing because I can't seem to spell today)

[ edited by menomegirl on 2010-08-18 18:12 ]
Anyone read the last page? The Angel comic book returns to Dark Horse in late 2011!!!
So there's a buy back?
On Scott Allie's "Horsepower" page at the end of the Riley one-shot, it says to expect "...the return of the Angel series to Dark Horse in late 2011, in tendem with our Buffy Season 9 relaunch".

[ edited by Riker on 2010-08-18 19:17 ]
Buying back the license could be the only way to kill for good some characters (not very thrilled about the perspective, to be honest)
Angel going back to Dark Horse......oh no....please no....that sounds terrible.
So... are they going to honor the Angel series by IDW, or simply call it another universe and don't worry about continuity? Either way would be fine with me.

I have to say I haven't really gotten into IDW's treatment of Angel. The artwork is inconsistent and sometimes downright bad, and the stories have been somewhat confusing. At least for me they have been. You guys may have differenty opines.

Anyway, I enjoyed this issue. I was wondering what had happened to Sam, because hey, I thought she was a class act. Nice to see Riley has a partner who will talk with him about stuff, really communicate. Buffy kinda treated him as "part time boyfriend".
Maybe they're just reprinting their old Angel comic books.
I'm excited about Angel returning to Dark Horse. It should end those pesky continuity debates. I'm sure DH will consider "After the Fall" canon but I'm not sure if whatever came after it will "count".

As for the one-shot, I liked it. Was nice to see Whistler again (wasn't he supposed to appear in the Angel tv series but couldn't so they created Doyle instead?). Riley and Sam's "portrait of a marriage" was nice. 'Twas a nice "fill in the blanks" issue.

P.S. I hope IDW either got a lot of money or some other sort of goodness out of this deal. Wonder if this means Spike, Illyria, etc. transfer with it.

[ edited by Riker on 2010-08-18 19:35 ]
Well goodbye Spike series...goodbye flashback comics...good bye mini series.

I missed the Angel 2011 comment. That is fantastic news! IDW has been too wishy washy with Angel and I haven't been able to get into anything after After the Fall.
Hm, with what IDW did to angel lately that sounds not so bad. On the other hand DH did not really do better by him...

We'll see, I hope they keep Brian Lynch on and decanonize the rest.
We would not have had ANY Angel comics for the last 5 years if it wasn't for them.

No After the Blood and episode adaptations. Over 80 Angel comics in the last few years that we would not have had if it wasn't for IDW and their love of this universe. I hope people do not forget that.
That's great news about the Angel book. I hope it's true.
Yet only After the Fall can truly be considered canon, angeliclestat. So technically they only published 17 issues that actually count. The rest is fanfic.

[ edited by Riker on 2010-08-18 19:54 ]
Off 1st read, this issue falls into the "fine" category. I enjoyed reading it, but it didn't really tell us much of anything. We get to see Riley do pretty much what we already know he did. The Whistler appearance was probably the most interesting part for me; it makes me think that there might be hope for Angel, seeing another "Good Guy" behind the Twilight plan.
I have my Buffyverse comic(the Riley One-Shot and Angel #36) and yes it's true.It's in the back of the Riley-One Shot on the HORSEPOWER page.A big column by Scott Allie about the upcoming Whedoneverse books.The last paragraph.

What's next for the Whedon clan ad Drk Horse?How about a Dollhouse comic written by Jed and Maurissa,who wrote key episodes of the show,and the return of the Angel series to Dark Horse in late 2011,in tandem with our Buffy Season 9 relaunch?I can't wait to hold these comics in my hands.

Scott Allie

Yes,I also am wondering what this all means.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2010-08-18 20:08 ]
Oh don't give me that Riker. There have been over 80 comics with Angel on the title - thats all that matters to me.

It all counts to me.
Angel going back to Darkhorse? Oh dear god no. I can't think of anything worse. :(
Pretty disappointed, I'm sorry to say. Two reasons --

1) the ever expanding hot mess that is Twilight rationalization. It's now gotten to the same point that they got to in "Heroes" Season 4, when they and then... by no coincidence, IMO... got cancelled. That's the exact same basic stunt that Whistler is here to pull -- to announce by writer fiat that Angel was right, couldn't have done anything else, so NYAH! Where, really, he only comes off all the more wrong because of this issue, to me anyway.

2). This was supposed to be about Riley, right? There was very little to the Riley part of the story that will actually illuminate anything. It's sort of the Season 8 version of the how-Jack-got-his-tattoos episode of "Lost", since the origin of his scar is really the only part of his story that we couldn't have reasonable guessed. I mean, Jane's mastery of the adorableness of banter continues, but there's not much that really shows us anything we hadn't guessed. I'd have rather they have bagged Angel's stuff and just given us more about Riley's involvement -- a flashback to Buffy contacting him, maybe some flash-fore-back-ish stuff to his early work for Angel.
I don't understand how people can think this is bad. If Angel the Series had moved to UPN in Buffy's final season, I would have been jumping for joy (and so would you).

It's really great to have BOTH series under the same publisher once again. Angel will finally get some respect, and the new Angel series' continuity will mesh better with Buffy's because they'll be under the same roof.

And angeliclestat, it's neat that they all count for you, but the fact is, your mind can't make things canon that simply are not canon.
Chris Ryall just posted on the IDW board that they will be addressing the Angel back to Dark Horse news soon.
I thought his recent twitter message about talking with Mariah, Chris and Brian would be the start of a period of reconciliation between the two parts of this fandom. Seems now, we're once again on the (flame)warpath... 'tis sad.
Riker -

Angel has always had respect from IDW.

And when some people do not respect what is being done to the character in DH...ya we think this is bad.

And I never said anything about canon. I don't care about canon. I care about Angel. These comics count to me.
That's nice, but what's canon is important to me. That's why I haven't read IDW's series since December.

But you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be buying every issue of the Dark Horse series!
Let's not turn this into the Buffyverse equivalent of Marvel vs DC. And the canon issue got old years ago and I may have to make it a dead topic again if it gets out of hand.
There's no way to discuss Angel moving to Dark Horse from IDW without the topic of canon coming into play, Simon. It is an important question: Will post-ATF stories be rendered moot, or will they count? I'd be miffed to find out dozens of issues of my favorite comic no longer "counted".
Angel going to Dark Horse is seriously some of the best news I've had in a while. Color me excited.

The issue was pretty decent I thought. Even though I agree that more Riley would have done the issue good, I kind of like the parallels drawn between him and Angel in the issue. Although Riley's making the better choice for Buffy.... unlike that other guy.
Riker, it's not at all the same.

I've been more excited for the fandom than ever of late... but this is horrible, horrible news. What is going on? Why?
I like my Angel in relation to Buffy. I like them "together", whether it's as a couple, on the same network, or published by the same company. So I'm glad that they are "reuniting", and I have to say, I love Angel's role in Season 8 moreso than any of the Angel books published post-After the Fall. So for me, this is thrilling news.

It bothered me that Buffy's spinoff was on another network. It bothered me that Buffy's spinoff comic book was published by another company. This is the sound of things being made right.
I'm glad for you Riker.I hope they are good then!

Simon - I dont want to talk bout canon...but its something that is brought up again and again. When I think the supposed 'canon' is terrible why would I care?

Anyway...that's not the point.

The point is is that Dark Horse never cared about Angel. IDW did. That is why I want it to stay at IDW.
It's absolutely the same, pat. It makes no sense for Buffy's spinoff to be published by a rival company. With them both under the same publisher, continuity will be streamlined and we won't run into the mess we ran into earlier this year with Covergate.
There's no way to discuss Angel moving to Dark Horse from IDW without the topic of canon coming into play, Simon.

Not if people are being aggressive about it. If I see anyone trying to score points they're be booted.
@Riker, definitely on the same page. I'm thinking this move is going to finally make the Buffyverse feel whole by including more of the Angel stuff.
Riker- Ah then that it explains it all . You see I do not care about Buffy...when Angel is at IDW he is all about his mission and him as a character. At DH he is gonna be all about Buffy again.

This is why I havn't liked his role in Buffy Season 8, and why I do not want him at DH. He had his own identity away from it is going to all brought back to that again.



And if Joss and DH hadn't been so secretive with IDW then continuity would not have been a problem. IDW would have been delighted to work with DH....DH did not want to work with IDW.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 20:38 ]
Other than a trivial mention in the lettercol, what does that subject even have to do with the issue discussion anyway? Just throwing that out there.
@Buffyfantic: Good to hear. I didn't even notice this bit of (explosively huge) news till people here mentioned it. I wonder what the story there is. Joss realize he wanted to get back into that story? Allie realizing he made a possible mistake by selling the title? Some sort of compromise deal between the two companies in order to mesh the continuities?

@Angeliclestat: Glad they count for you. Regardless of if they count or not, they've been far from good for a long time now so it seems to work out better for them to at least be grounded within the same verse/zone again. Even when the two series were under different channels they at least had the same staff to hold some level of consistency. That's gone now and it's showing more and more.
Saying we should be thankful for 80+ issues doesn't work for me. Quality over quantity and all that. If you've thought they were high-end then great, and I mean that. I can't agree though for various reasons. I think IDW as a company may have respect for the Angel series, but if that's the case they're showing it in, again, a quantity over quality sort of way which is sad.

On a vaguely related note: it's interesting that, from what we know about season 9, it's going to take a similar vein in having a handful of running titles all at once, much like how Angel's been as of late.
Angeliclestat, Angel is a spinoff of Buffy. There would be no Angel without Buffy. I cannot understand your attitude simply because Angel is part of the Buffyverse and deserves to be further integrated into it, not kept in his own little bubble.

I hate to say it, but it was easy to drop the Angel series once Joss' name left the covers. I felt no connection to them. They were essentially disposable fun like the original Buffy and Angel comics: authorized but didn't really count.

I see this development as allowing Angel's adventures to matter in the grand scheme of things once again.
If people want to chat about this news, I've created a new topic. So let's get back to the discussion of the issue.
@trunktheslayer We will just have to agree to disagree because I have enjoyed 90% of the Angel comics from IDW, and that includes the latest ones. I loved how they expanded the universe with flashbacks and minis. Angel will just be an extension of Buffy now, and not its own comic.

@Riker I cannot deny that Angel comes from Buffy. But like all spinoffs needs to work seperately from the show it came from. This way it will just be Buffy v2.0 again...and not the seperate amazing thing it became. I don't see it as part of the's in its own Angelverse. Now its gonna be All About Buffy again. After everything that happened in the show and in the comic that is hugely depressing to me.
@Simon - fair enough! This is too important not to discuss.

EDIT - I had that posted before I saw that you had made a new topic, wasnt ignoring it;)

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 20:47 ]
So now that we've had three Buffy one-shots in Season Eight, which did you like best? Tales of the Vampires, Willow, or Riley?
Willow > Riley > Tales for me. In part because I love Moline's art (though his Angel was...odd) but that's how relevant each felt to the overall story.
Was the Willow one shot included in the trade paperback?
For me, Riley has the edge over Willow simply because Willow felt more like the first issue of a three- or four-issue miniseries. But ultimately I liked Tales the best because it showed us the "everyman's perspective" of the big changes caused by Harmony's "great revelation".
Are the one shots going to be included in the trade paperbacks?
I just hope the one-shots, along with the Myspace Dark Horse Present material, are included in the forthcoming Season 8 hardcovers.
I've been waiting for them to put together a massive Omnibus or a series of larger hardcovers or paperbacks -- I've never been a fan of small, three-issue trades. I kinda want the entire season, like my DVDs, and hopefully the one-shots will be put in as interludes when they came out.
I liked "Riley - Commitment Through Distance, Virtue Through Sin." I have some thoughts but will mull it over.

With regards to The Other Thing (DH/IDW): I offer a very Oz-like, "Huh."
This was a great issue to explain a little more about Angel's motivation in being Twilight and seeing Riley interact with Sam was kinda endearing, I like him a whole lot more now than when it was live, somehow he seems more layered and complex, not just commando guy. I also loved the Willow one shot.
Buffyfest has a review of the issue along with Angel #36.
I wonder if this issue gives us any insight on just what was happening with Dark Willow in the TYL arc. According to Whistler, an unlikely event took place: Buffy and Angel fell in love. This stomped out certain possibilities in the universe while creating new ones. It seems to me that the direction this is going is that Angel had to get Buffy to Twilight in order for her to reject it - things had to play out a certain way, and the decision had to be Buffy's alone. I'm not sure how I feel about this possibility, but it does make me reconsider Dark Willow's motivations in the TYL arc. Perhaps Dark Willow, after gaining similar insight that Whistler appears to have in the current issue, learns that death by Buffy's hand is necessary in order to avoid a potential terrible future.

Does any of this make sense? Or am I just flying off the rails?
So, I need some details. I won't be able to buy my copy till next week and I love spoilers.
Does this issue explain why Angel saddled up with Twilight? Did Angel know Twilight was bad from the get go? Inquiring minds want to know.
I thought this was a great issue.It's basically Riley & Sam and Angel & Whistler and all about Buffy.

I really loved the dynamic between Riley and Sam and thought Same had more depth as a character here then in "As You Were."

On the Angel front.We do get more answers here although some more blanks need to be filled.I expect Buffy #36 will hit those.But this issue gives more insight into Angel's mindset.

He's against creating the Twilight identity and he hates this whole deal.There is a specific reason why Angel takes this tactic.As some have wondered,why didn't Angel just talk to Buffy before hand about the forces mounting against her,Twilight and this coming war?That's the first thing Angel wanted to do.Warn Buffy and fight this coming war together as a team.The reason why Whistler says that is a bad move is because if they do that,they'll lose together.

At the heart of the whole issue is The girl(Buffy) or the World.

And it's pretty clear in the issue that Angel knew Riley was a double agent for Buffy.That was part of the plan.

Riley's loyalty is with Buffy while Angel's is with the world.It's almost an inverse of Becoming Part 2 where Buffy had to choose between Angel and the world and chose the world,sending Angel to hell.

But we still need more info.There are still some blanks to fill and the events of Buffy #35,and what we know about Buffy #36-38 and season 9 raises some interesting speculation.

Buffy #35 was called,"The Power of Love" and Brad Meltzer said that...

Q: Was Angel deciding to leave with Buffy his way of reclaiming control Twilight had of him?

BM: That decision had power.

So,in that moment,if Angel was choosing Buffy over the world,could this be why he's on the other side of the world in the Buffy #38 solicitation.Whistler warned Angel that in every other time-line that when Angel was upfront and chose Buffy(told her about Twilight and worked alongside her to win this war,they lost).

Are they being separated because Angel didn't stick to the plan(And now Angel has to answer for his failings as Twilight-willingly or not.) or are they being separated to fight this war on two fronts?

Lots of questions.We still need to know where Angel got his superpowers.I still want to know about Connor and the rest of Team Angel although I have thought now about Connor in light of this issue.

If the world ends then Connor dies.Everybody dies So Angel making this pragmatic decision even though he hates it,is in character.

But that also raises the the question.Isn't thew world ending now because Buffy and Angel reached Twilight?Was Whistler and TPTB info reliable or is there much more going on that we don't know?

Question,Question,Questions.Only have to wait two more weeks to get even more answers.
The Powers that screw you, lol, that's what I remember from the series ATS...wasn't it Fred who said that? The PTB were a little more helpful on Buffy than Angel, so who knows what will go down. Two weeks to wait isn't long at all, not after that last deal.
I really appreciated that Whitsler is involved and gave a few answers as to why Angel isn't evil incarnate but just his presence makes me nervous on the Buffy count. Last time he showed his face in Sunnydale, Buffy had to ram a sword through Angel's chest, to save the world.
Imma say it ... I liked Riley for Buffy. He was a good safe bet. An underdog. The one who got away. It was heroic they way he loved her when she didn't love him. By heroic I mean selfless, and willing to lay his life down for her. His love was an active choice, not something written in prophecy.

So to see the way Angel exploits that to recruit him to Team Twilight is kind of a knife twister, no pun intended to those who've read it.

Also nice was Angel's "I'm a slave to prophecy" -ness. Cause you just feel like the 'verse is just dicking him all the time. But he takes it like a man in prison. It was really interesting to see their choices to "do you save the girl or do you save the world?"

And did you catch the very brief mention of the PTB (the Powers That Be?) Cause where the heck have they been all this time?

Side note? the art was kind of lacking on this one. Does anyone know how this issue will be collected? Will it be collected with the Willow one-shot?
Thanks for the recap, Buffyfantic. I'm more baffled by Angel than ever, but I'm blaming the comic, not you. ;)

Whistler warned Angel that in every other time-line that when Angel was upfront and chose Buffy(told her about Twilight and worked alongside her to win this war,they lost).

There are different time lines? What?!? When did this happen (and where was I)? Seriously, has this been established before in Buffy or is this completely new?

It seems like very lazy writing to me - You must believe what I'm saying even if it's incredibly implausible because I've seen what happens in all the other time lines. I mean, really? That's awful. In fact it just feels like an attempt to answer fans' complaints about Angel's actions, rather than a planned part of the story.

Not having read the issue yet, I'll leave it at that. What did people who have read it make of that section?
Different timelines, alternate realities... kinda the same thing, as in it follows the same linear timeline, but events are different. At least to the casual observer. I'm sure someone can pick out the nuances. But in terms of alternate realities, we'd previously seen that they existed in the Wishverse.
Well I found the issue to be kind of dull, and really sort of pointless. I didn't think it shed any real light on Angel's motivations in becoming Twilight, or Riley's in becoming a double agent. In fact the only new information I felt I got was that Riley's wife was cool with his answering Buffy's call for help. I found it disappointing that Jane Espenson didn't really manage to put in much humor, and generally I think this issue could be skipped completely.

NotaViking, I didn't really feel that Whistler's comments meant much... just more 'convenient' information that Angel 'had' to do these ridiculous actions that were completely out of character and made no sense in any time line. I still have hopes that Joss will have a brilliant pay off for this lame story line, because so far I don't think it is working.
I felt warm and happy after this issue, like I had just had a hot cup of chai and a chocolate cookie. Possibly because I read it while drinking chai and eating a cookie, but I liked the comic a lot too.

Whistler was a fantastic surprise: the character who always should have shown up in Angel's own series and never did. As the guy who brought Angel to Buffy and helped her defeat Angelus, he's got to be the most trustworthy source in the universe for guidance as far as Angel is concerned. That goes a long way toward explaining how he bought into the Twilight plan. It was great seeing the two of them converse so naturally, since we saw so little of their friendship in the show and it was so crucial to who Angel became.

Also, Whistler made a Heroes reference! Go him!

But you know what I missed more than I missed Whistler? Angel feeling guilty. I missed the Angel who wants to get off this path but can't because he has to choose the world over the girl. When he said he hates this, I said "Welcome back, Angel." We're still going to need some backstory to find out how he got from this to the Twilight we saw in #34 and #35, but I'm glad to see this confirmation that he wasn't putting on the mask with the intent of claiming Buffy and making a new world with her.

What did everyone think of the line "She has to feel powerless to gain the ultimate power"? (Sorry for the misquote; too lazy to go get the issue.) This could be the key to the mystery of Angel getting his superpowers before Buffy did, but more than that, why would Twilight need its subjects to feel powerless? Is the mentality of being helpless going to aid them in some way?

Added to that, Angel didn't display any of those superpowers in the issue, which makes me wonder. He had them in the first issue of Season 8, and this must have taken place after that because Buffy knew enough about Twilight to recruit Riley for the cause. Maybe he just doesn't like using them.

Not much to say about Riley and Sam, except that I completely believe in them as a couple and for this issue I really felt like there was nothing more important than their future together raising a family and growing corn. They're just so earnest, with the flannel and the dogs and the organic pesticide. The action-movie backdrop to their scenes didn't really add anything, but it didn't really need to.

Twilight's final exchange with Riley hit me kind of gradually. Permission, huh? And Sam's standing right there, and has already given her permission and more. But Riley understands at that point that it's not about an agreement between him and his wife; it's about the bond and the trust they already share.

Buffy never gave Angel permission to leave her, either.

No complaints about the art except that when Angel took off his mask, I only knew who he was by context, but I'm willing to blame that on the mask-hair. Cool backgrounds! And I actually bought the Moline cover. It felt weird to pass up a Jo Chen, but there was something way too appealling about the holding-hands pose.

Best part about the whole thing, though? Extra-short wait until the next issue!

About the superpowers bit - in the last scene with Whistler Angel takes off and flies away from the church's rooftop, I believe. So, yeah, he has them.
They might as well have called this issue "In Which There Is Much Exposition". That's not a complaint though; it was nice to get this before we plunge into the final arc. It almost feels like a pre-titles sequence. And, of course, who could ever pass up Jane Espenson's humour?

Also, I love how the actual title of this issue (Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin) applies to both Angel and Riley.
How did Angel get from "Twilight is a bad idea I want to warn Buffy" to "Buffy lets live in Pandora and forget the doomed world"? I totally buy him being skeptical and wanting to tell Buffy but I still don't buy his actions in the Power of Love.
I loved this to itty bitty pieces and I have to say that the idea that Angel had to CHOOSE between loyalty to the girl and loyalty to the world was silly. Why? Cause, imo, there is nothing MORE loyal anyone can do than choose to save the world that Buffy has died twice for (and sacrificed in so many other ways as well, including sending same vampire to hell).

Very well done. Riley/Sam continue to be adorable and Angel was very believable but OMG, Whistler return was BRILLIANT. There's a wonderful continuity to it all, a full circle from Becoming to now that I just adore. *squishes comic*

Plus - think about the title! "Commitment through distance, virtue through sin" - That is about Sam/Riley sure, but since this was more about Angel than Riley, it's also about B/A.

Angel is told they can't be together AND he can't even tell her about what he's doing - but he can still save the world. Commitment through distance. He has to make some not good choices, allow some bad things to happen to save the world - VIRTUE through Sin.

VERY happy with this.

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-08-19 23:59 ]
Oh just kill off the poor bugger already.
Finally got the issue!

I really liked it. Loved the dynamic between Riley and Sam, they have a good trust/partnership bond.

As for Angel, this sounds a hell of a lot more like our Angel. We now know why he didn't tell Buffy and why he went along with this plan. Questioning the plan, hating it is perfectly in character. After all the time he's been screwed with, by Big Bads and the Powers-That-Do-Sod-All I would expect Angel to be skeptical, at least at first, but seeing that Whistler was the one who set him on his path I can buy that Angel would trust him, wisely or not. Maybe we'll find out later if it is the real Whistler or if the poor guy is just being screwed with yet again.

Like people have already said, it doesn't fill in all the blanks, we don't know how we got to #35 Angel. Was that part of the plan - was he supposed to get Buffy to reject Twilight? He said when they arrived in 'Twilight' that 'they told me it didn't exist', so it's still confusing but at least we know Angel just didn't automatically turn to this, he was convinced that there was no other way.
Finally read this over the weekend. I can see why they asked Jane Espenson to write it, it definitely took a certain deftness to answer fan concerns within a solid standalone story. And overall it worked. It was nice to catch up with Riley and Sam and see Riley being a little more mature but still so true to character. It did feel heavy-handed and forced at times in Angel's scenes, but I think avoiding that entirely would take a longer arc than this. Ah well. The line about Angel's hair was a nice touch.
Liked it okay (though Moline's Angel is horribly drawn), but we still need more on how Angel came to the decisions he did and why he went about things as Twilight as he did. Yeah, it makes total sense that he chose the world over Buffy, since it came down to it. I can even buy that Powers-embodied-through-dogs-and-other-random-animals-and-people (or was it Twilight, pre-birth, speaking to him and influencing events to result in its birth ? Very Jasmine-style, if that), plus glowy universe energies, nudged Angel heavily.

I'm also thinking that Whistler may've been lying about the timelines he's seen where Buffy and Angel, united, failed. Remember when the man/demon that pretended to be faux-aged-Xander tricked Xander with the same gimmick in "Hell's Bells" ? This feels a lot like that. Get Angel to believe what they (Whistler and whoever he's working for--geez, this is looking more and more like the Jasmine arc, if it turns out I'm right, 'cause Skip turned out to be a traitor in much the same way) need him to buy into in order to get him acting the way they require, set him solidly on that path.

This thread has been closed for new comments.

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.

joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home