This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"See Vera? Dress yourself up, you get taken out somewhere fun."
11945 members | you are not logged in | 01 November 2014




Tweet







August 18 2010

IDW to address Dark Horse's Angel series. More on this news as we get it.

News about the Dark Horse series was first revealed in the last page of the Riley one-shot. Update: CBR has some coverage, including the full column from the comic.

VERY excited!!!

This is the equivalent of if Buffy had moved back to the WB in Season 7. Love it! Love it for Bangel reasons, love it for continuity reasons, love it for quality reasons.

The IDW Angel series hasn't been very good since After the Fall, and ultimately I dropped the series last December. But with Angel returning to Dark Horse, I'll be back on the Angel train.

[ edited by Riker on 2010-08-18 20:49 ]
VERY depressed!!!
Bad, bad news. I dread to think what Darkhorse will do to this line. :(
Always nice to see a fresh burst of Allie-flaming bile, gotta love the really substantive, rational arguments against a change in publishers.

If there is even going to *be* one -- Ryall certainly didn't say so yet, and Allie could have been talking about Angel omnibus trades.
Had a feeling IDW might relinquish the Angel license after the events of DH's Buffy Season 8. The fact that Buffy 8 happens after IDW's storylines means the character IDW thought they bought isn't the character they ended up with.
Allie could have been talking about Angel omnibus trades.

No, I don't think so. Not with the way it's phrased. No need to promote old issues of Angel with the launch of the new season of Buffy. And from Ryall's response, it certainly sounds like a new Angel series is coming from Dark Horse.
I have never mentioned Allie KingofCretins. I dont care about him - he is the editor. He will have no say over stories etc.

However I do not like the idea of Angel moving to DH because of what has been done to the character in Season 8 i.e. back to being Buffy's b*tch.
I love Joss Whedon, obviously, and if he's going to be working closer with Angel, I should consider it a blessing, but...

IDW is made up of my favorite writers and artists. The Angel creative team have reached out to fans in ways I've never seen before, and I've befriended and talk to a lot of them on a regular basis. What IDW has done with Angel has been one of the best parts of my recent years, so to say this is devastating is an understatement. I need more information.
Apart from wishing this whole mess didn't exist to begin with. I also wish that IDW and DH would get better publicists to tell them how to break news.
Riker, Buffy and Angel were back to crossing over with each other that year anyway. I'm not sure I see how being on the same network would have made a difference.

Given what Dark Horse intends to do with season nine, though, it seems smart to bring Angel back into the fold. (I know Allie has stated repeatedly in the letter columns that he regrets Dark Horse letting it slip away in the first place.)

[ edited by daylight on 2010-08-18 20:55 ]
I do wonder why IDW weren't ready with a statement on this or did Dark Horse forget to mention to them that they'd be making this announcement now?
The way they break news is fun and gossipy. I'd be so bored without these mini-scandals!
@patxshand

Me too - IDW's Angel has meant so much to me over the last few years. Given me so much pleasure and enjoyment.
Re: Anti-Allie bile -- I read the linked thread, that's what I was reacting to.
fun and gossipy. ya that's professional.
daylight, because it makes no sense for a spinoff to be on a different network from its originating series. If I were a Grey's Anatomy fan, I'd be annoyed if it remained on ABC and Private Practice went to NBC. Shows that share the same fictional universe should remain under the same network, and that goes for comic books, films, and novels as well.
@KingofCretins

Ah ok - but for most of us that has nothing to do with it. Just want Angel to stay at IDW.
Don't really know what to make of this. I didn't like what either company did to the characters lately.

Glad to hear BL's Spike series will be ok, but both Angel and Buffy comics need to improve wastly.
I don't really care what happens with the "Angel" title since the IDW title stopped entertaining me, and the Dark Horse character has stopped entertaining me. Combine a title I don't read and a character I no longer respect, it's hard to worry about what company's logo might be on it.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-18 21:00 ]
Wouldn't we have heard officially that IDW lost the license? Based on nothing, I'll say that this is a one-off miniseries that deals with Angel's guilt as a result of his actions in Buffy season 8.
I never really much liked the Angel: After the Fall comics anyway (I only read the 'canon' ones though, so -shrug-), but I am enjoying Buffy Season Eight (well I'm not entirely caught up with the whole Twilight arc yet, but so far, anyway), so if this IDW to DH thing means that the Angel comics will start looking a bit more like the Buffy ones, I'm all for it!

Such an odd way to release the news though. Seems like IDW and DH are really not so good at working together on these things, judging by this and the last few *scandals* about these issues.
Simon, I think you're jumping to conclusions. Why would we have heard about IDW losing the license? That's something that would have happened behind closed doors. Sounds to me like that's what happened, but maybe DH jumped the gun in making its announcement.
Also, I think Allie wouldn't have said "Angel series", he would have said "miniseries".

Oh well, Scott Allie is me hero now!
You see that's what I would love to think Simon. This would be huge news...not to be announced in a flippant way at the end of a letter column.

Oh I would jump for joy if that's all it was.

Literally

Seriously I would take a video of it and upload it onto youtube for all to see I would be so happy.
Well I loved 'After the Fall' and thought that out off all the coimcs released so far (yes including the lumbering wacky epic that is season 8) and thought that it was the one that at least felt a litle like a natural continuation of the verse.
He would have said "a new Angel miniseries", not "return of the Angel series" if that's all it were.
Why would we have heard about IDW losing the license?


Because news that like that gets reported in the comic book world.

but maybe DH jumped the gun in making its announcement.


Given the lead time for this issue, Dark Horse knew about this Angel news at least three to four weeks ago.
*sigh* Why am I not surprised to hear that. :(
I don't see why we're speculating. Scott Allie says the Angel series is returning. He didn't say an Angel miniseries is debuting. Sounds pretty definitive that Dark Horse has the license back. Why would anyone wish for something else??
@Agnelic from the last thread: When Buffy and Angel shared a network, how often was Angel "all about Buffy"? Especially post first season?
To say that Angel is in it's own verse is...that's a difficult argument to make. It's a spin-off, to begin with. Beyond that, their inherent/overall mythos stayed consistent for the most part and the crossovers/references to one another held it within the same verse.
Also there's the fact that about half the main cast of Angel has a large part of their history on Buffy so....


Overall, this is the best thing that can happen for the stories. They can remain separate while still keeping within the same continuity and not royally screwing up plans for future crossovers and such. Character developments will be explained before said characters appear out of nowhere and seemingly different, and that's just the start of the perks.
Frankly, I'm not seeing anything in terms of a positive argument for the two remaining in separate hands. Scare-tactic level speculation isn't doing it for me. People crying about how "Angel will be all about Buffy" or how "Allie's gonna kill Spike/Angel/a smurf/etc" are...HUH?! What's the basis for this stuff, if not simply hate for a company in general, or just a knee-jerk reaction to the news?

How about we relax till we hear some press over what's happening? Frankly, I'm still holding out for there being some kind of compromise between IDW and Dark Horse (What can I say, I have my optimistic moments). If there's not, then I'm wondering how this came about exactly and how IDW really feels.


Wait, so we know Lynch's Spike series is still a go? If that's the case, I wonder what that means. Does Spike officially have his own license now? I can't imagine that's the case. Likelihood of Lynch working under Dark Horse?
Allie's announcement seems a bit triumphal to just be a miniseries, though I'll admit his public persona regularly puzzles me so I could be wrong. My bet--also based on nothing--is that IDW chose to reinquish the license because their hero has suddenly become a supervillain who killed hundreds of people and then tried to destroy the world, along with, presumably, all the supporting characters he is supposed to respect and love from his IDW book (like his son, for example.)

I honestly don't understand why IDW's contract didn't have a clause preventing Joss and Dark Horse from using any of the Angel characters for the duration of IDW's license--it would seem a standard enough clause for this sort of thing. Instead IDW got completely blindsided by Buffy season 8 and on top of that had to endure negative publicity when one of their writers--a damned good writer, not a hack--had a public temper tantrum over it. As far as Buffy and Angel in comics go, there is more interesting drama in the behind the scenes machinations of the creators than in the actual stories.

One other observation: Dark Horse isn't exactly a pauper but they aren't Marvel Comcis either and they frankly can't afford a decent publicity operation, so snafus will happen. I would call this lack of a coordinated announceent with IDW a snafu.

[ edited by Hellmouthguy on 2010-08-18 21:11 ]
Because they like the IDW ANGEL comics?
Well I would I'm afraid, because I can't stand what they've done with the franchise over in Darkhorse land. And don't get me started on how they've managed to bugger up Angels character for me....

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-08-18 21:09 ]
There sure have been alot of heated topics lately on the W.
Apparently Spike's series says "part 1 of 8" on its cover. Obviously it's not an ongoing. Now we know why.
It was always meant to be a short run I thought? Also aren't you jumping the gun here with your speculations?
So, Spike will be around in Season 9...and Angel will have his own series @Darkhorse ?
@trunkslayer "Also there's the fact that about half the main cast of Angel has a large part of their history on Buffy so...."
Not anymore. Everyone that had links to Buffy is dead (technically that includes Angel and Spike)!!

What about Gunn, Illyria and most importantly Connor? Angel didnt seem to give a damn about him in recent Season 8 stories. His own son!!!! The most important thing to him in the whole world. Joss just wanted to use Angel as Buffy's love and conveniantly forget all about the most important thing to him in the world.

And you ask why I am worried?!
trunkstheslayer, I definitely agree with all your points. The Covergate scandal and the Willingham thing wouldn't have occurred if Angel were under Dark Horse.

Hellmouthguy, I definitely agree with Allie's triumphal tone, as well as this being a PR snafu. Simon mentioned stuff like this getting reported...well, this is Dark Horse reporting it!
Mariah said that 1 of 8 is wrong. It is on-going.
I still find it hard to believe that someone likes a spinoff character such as Angel better than Buffy. Without Buffy, there is no Angel! He's not a standalone character!

[ edited by Riker on 2010-08-18 21:14 ]
Don't worry angelic I share your concerns. :(

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-08-18 21:14 ]
When IDW announced that they were taking over the Angel franchise several years ago, I was very happy. They had the vision to continue the Angelverse then, and I dearly hope that they are going to continue to produce Angel comics. I'm crossing my fingers that this announcement doesn't mean what it would seem to do.
Riker, Angel *became* his own character. Angel isn't called "Angel, which is only a side-story, so remember folks, Buffy is more important." That title would be clunky.
What I don't get is how can Dark Horse reacquire the rights to the Angel series without IDW knowing about it(or rather relinquishing them). This doesn't make sense to me.
You do realise that Angel split off and got his own shw? I mean there were five seasons, and everything. *g*

Angels world doesn't just revolve around Buffy anymore. He's one big grown up Vampire. *g*
I still find it hard to believe that someone likes a spinoff character such as Angel better than Buffy. Without Buffy, there is no Angel! He's not a standalone character!

So Buffy has to be everyone's favourite character? I think you'll find plenty of people disagree with that contention.
Doesn't matter---Angel wouldn't exist without Buffy. And if anything, it's been proven that Angel works best WITH Buffy. I am glad their books will be published by the same company again. I am ecstatic!
Well me for one helcat! *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-08-18 21:18 ]
Angel works best with Buffy? Good lord. And Buffy being better just because it was first? Double good lord.

[ edited by Wyndam_ on 2010-08-18 21:19 ]
Actually, yes, helcat. If Buffy's not your favourite character, you really shouldn't be reading a book called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I didn't watch Veronica Mars and liked another character more than Veronica. That would be illogical.
"Doesn't matter---Angel wouldn't exist without Buffy. And if anything, it's been proven that Angel works best WITH Buffy."

In your opinion, not everyones.

Huh, free will, who would have thunk it. *g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-08-18 21:20 ]
Oh Riker....really? Really????!!!!!!!!!

THAT is your argument.

'jeez guys hes just a spinoff character'

I am very much having to watch what I type here...but it aint pretty.

How fricking insulting. How DARE you! What about those people that love Spike, Wesley, Willow,Illyria,Xander, Gunn,Giles, Connor. Are they wrong too? Just cos they are spinoff and/or supporting characters?

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 21:20 ]
Way to rudely dismiss Buffy and Angel fans, Wyndam_.
So if Angel can only work when the character is WITH Buffy then surely the whole thing got messed up when they decided to spin the character off and give him his own show. Maybe what you should be holding out for Riker is the end of the Angel comics and the return of Angel full-time to the Buffy comics.
Simon, you're needed!! *g*
We're all forgetting the OTHER good news: with Angel coming to Dark Horse, the chances of Brian Lynch coming to DH and writing some Buffy stories now seems much more likely than it would have a year or two ago.
"If Buffy's not your favourite character, you really shouldn't be reading a book called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I didn't watch Veronica Mars and liked another character more than Veronica. That would be illogical."

Dude. What.

Is there a mod somewhere here, maybe?
So it's not actually been said that IDW has lost the rights to Angel, right? I mean there's the whole thing about DH being able to use all Buffy characters, and IDW being able to use all Angel characters plus the Buffy characters who appeared on the show (eg. Faith, Willow, Darla). Isn't it entirely possible that DH could be giving Angel a miniseries as a Buffy character, in the same way IDW is giving Illyria a miniseries as an Angel character?

Either way I won't mind. I've always enjoyed S8, but apart from 'After The Fall' and the 'Boys and Their Toys' arc, most of IDW's series has been pretty bad. I'm buying out of loyalty, not interest. =\


@Riker - I think you'll find that most fans of 'Buffy' (the show) wouldn't rank Buffy (the character) as their favourite by a longshot.
Nothing against Bangel fans. Bangel is a fun relationship. Angel as a character and a series works infinitely better when he is allowed to do his own thing and flourish as a character.
Simon, you're needed!! *g*

Excuse me? You're the one attacking me!!!
No Riker - you are the one who is rudely dismissing Angel fans.
Angelic, it's hard for Season 8's Angel to show concern over characters he is not actually allowed to name-check, especially when two of the mentioned are not characters anyone in Season 8 that Angel has spoken to would even know, other than Faith (who also wouldn't know Illyria), and in Connor's case would mean opening yet another completely tangential can of worms since it would mean addressing textually whether Buffy even knew he existed.

Unreasonable expectations are unreasonable.

Let's keep in mind here that it's Joss Whedon that people are basically deeming unqualified to "Angel" stories here.
"I think you'll find that most fans of 'Buffy' (the show) wouldn't rank Buffy (the character) as their favourite by a longshot."

Mine would be Angel, Giles, Spike and Wesley. :)
Buffy was never my favourite character during the show, it's good to know this means I am not a fan of the TV show. I wonder why I'd never realised it while rewatching my DVDs.
The "who does Angel work best with" thing simply doesn't matter--because on his show it was demonstrably proved that he works just fine *without* a romantic interest. In fact I found one of the most refreshing aspects of Angel the series to be the lack of "who's boffing who this week" overheated teen melodrama. Buffy (the show) often came off as Peyton Place crossed with Dawson's Creek; Angel Investigations, by comparison, always struck me as grownups trying to do a job.
I think in a few years' time, if some of the people who are taking sides here were to look back on what they'd typed in this thread, they might deeply regret some of the things they are saying... I speak from experience.
Riker I'm giving you some time to cool down for a while as your behaviour is very OTT and disruptive.

Now if we could get back to endlessly speculating about this news then that would be lovely and I could actually get round to playing Fallou 3.
Well, I never cared for the majority of Angel comics to begin with, and I doubt that's going to change if/when it's going to DarkHorse (and frankly, I'm not nearly as emotionally invested in AtS as I am in BtVS), so, I shrug.

But geez? This is one of the more ridiculous threads I've seen in a while. Whew.

ETA: Buffy is my favorite character. ;-)

[ edited by pat32082 on 2010-08-18 21:27 ]
@KingofCretins.

Well technically since the Angel licence was at another company he should not have used Angel (especially in such an important role) without at least having the courtesy of letting the company which is releasing Angel comics know.

If he did that he could have mentioned Connor.

But it seems that when Angel goes back to 'Buffy' nothing else matters except his love for Buffy.Example A being how he was all chipper and happy and jokey in 7.22 when he had just lost his son to take over Wolfram and Hart, and was all spoiled bratty about Buffy and Spike. Is that what we hav to look forward to?
Huh? Riker, did you also like no one better than Sarah Connor on TSSC? And then if you watched the movies you'd have to switch to liking the Terminator better, because he was the title character.

Or can you just like the Terminator best because he was in the title first?

The shows we are talking about are ensemble shows, you can like best whoever you want to. I thought Angel was a boring piece of furniture on Buffy, but I was pleasantly surprised how great he turned out to be on his own.

To see him cast back into the tool role on S8 was very dissapointing and I do hope that whatever DH does with the rights they let him act as a his own lead.

ETA: Sorry, slow typer, didn't see the later developments in the thread.

[ edited by Changeling on 2010-08-18 21:28 ]
@Angelic: A: you missed my point about the characters. The two series are connected and there's no denial for that. To say "It's Angel's verse!" is...wrong. Simple as that, unless you entirely ignore Buffy as a series, which would be massively difficult given how FIVE main cast members (Angel himself, Cordelia, Wes, Spike, and Harmony) all have a large amount of their character development in the 'parent' series.

B:Given everything else that's happening with "Twilight" right now, it's entirely possible that Angel has more pressing issues in mind. Accusing Joss of anything here is ridiculous, especially given the surrounding circumstances.
And that's all I'm saying on the matter of Angel's characterization. I'm beyond sick of this debate because, quite frankly, it's too early to have it. We don't have the full story, yet people keep acting like we do and freaking out at the lack of explanation...that they may well get if they settle down and wait to see what comes. There's still ground to be covered.
That said, Angelic, you're talking about Angel in Buffy's title. That in no way says how he'll act under his own title at Dark Horse. At all. I'll point to "End of Days/Chosen" as the key example there. Buffy comes first in her own title. Similarly, Angel came first in his own title when Buffy showed up in season 1.



@Riker: Wow dude, just keep digging that hole. I mean...really, wow. Your argument keeps getting weaker the more you stick to this "Buffy is the best, everyone else comes second!" garbage.
Buffy and Angel are separate series, the second's status as a spin-off is only relevant for two reasons: One, it and the other series are tied and thus share a mythology that can't be denied and two, overall continuity. It has NOTHING to do with liking any particular characters or storylines.
Buffy's far from everyone's favorite character. By your logic, Angel has to be equally your favorite, or damn close, given that his name's on a title rather than say Wes or Gunn or Fred.
The name of the show has nothing to do with...well, anything other than that that character will be at the very core of the story. It doesn't mean the other characters aren't just as important.
Would you really like BtVS as much without Willow, Xander, Giles, etc?
@pat32082

Because you have no interest in 'Angel' you may find this thread ridiculous. But for those of us who deeply love 'Angel' and are deeply invested in it - it is quite important.

Actually, yes, helcat. If Buffy's not your favourite character, you really shouldn't be reading a book called Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I didn't watch Veronica Mars and liked another character more than Veronica. That would be illogical.


You can't possibly be serious Riker. It is not uncommon at all for the main character to not be the most popular character. Is Peter your favorite character on Family Guy? Homer on The Simpsons? Jack on Lost? Ted on HIMYM? Heck..Angel isn't even the most popular character on Angel. I could go on and on.
@ Changeling

That's what I want as well. If DH has reacquired the license back, I hope they do justice to Angel the SERIES and not just the CHARACTER. I hope they aren't just doing this to use him in Buffy Season 9. What about L.A.? What about Connor, Gunn and Illyria? Wolfram and Hart? AtS's own themes, concepts and story arcs?

There's so much up in the air with this news. I hope we hear some definitive plans soon on what this news entails.

[ edited by Wyndam_ on 2010-08-18 21:30 ]
trunktheslayer, changeling and eddy: Riker has been dealt with. If we could get back to the matter in hand then that would be lovely.
@trunktheslayer

Yes you may think that everyone is over reacting. But the way that DH released this news lends itself to overreacting. I am basing my first thoughts on this based on how Angel has been portrayed in DH. And I dont like it.

So ya...gonna over react until we get some more concrete news.
That is my major worry as well Wyndham.
You might wanna see what the plan is. Maybe DH will pick up Lynch to write it, for examps.

[ edited by gossi on 2010-08-18 21:34 ]
Angelic, as has been well documented by now, Angel is licensed concurrently to both houses. Meaning he didn't owe them a phone call, a candygram, or a cup of coffee. True, he could have sought permission to use those characters that were not licensed together, but if his aunt had nuts she'd be his uncle, too. In the story he had a right to tell without asking anybody's permission, he couldn't get into it.

And even if he could, as I've pointed out, it would have only been a lot of extraneous dialogue. The only people Angel could have even talked about *any* of those character too without *also* having had to explained how they were were Willow and Faith. And the only time he was around either of them to get into it, they were still concealing his identity -- so the complaint here is... what, that they didn't structure the entire season around some exposition that wasn't actually plot relevant?
I do, however, think it's rather illogical to like anyone better than Veronica Mars. In fact I think it's illogical to like characters on other shows better than Veronica Mars.

Trunktheslayer: fair point about how people are up in arms about Angel without giving Joss and his writers a chance to fully explain his actions as Twilight, but:

1. His actions as Twilight were so outrageously beyond the pale of anything previously established as part of his chaarcter that they strike some of us as risible, and

2. Comics aren't TV shows. They come out monthly and sometimes not even then. Whatever explaation we're going to get for Twilight has been a good number of months coming. That's a long wait.
King: When Angel has stated that Connor is the most important thing in the world, and Season Eight has him ready to let the world expire for him to have a Twilighty honeymoon with Buffy, I'd say that some "Where is Connor" exposition is more than relevant to the plot. It's essential.
Good gods, no fandom knows how to lose its cool better than ours.

KoC: Excellent point in regards to Season8-Angel not mentioning characters from LA....actually, that's a huge point. How did I not catch that before anywhere?
It also adds to why putting the two series in the same house is for the best (or at least changing the licenses enough to make that sort of thing a non-issue).


@Angelic: "If he did that he could have mentioned Connor."
What makes you so sure about that? Sorry, but I really don't think that's the case. Add in that hindsight is 20/20 for that matter. Whedon and the few at DH who knew who Twilight was wanted to keep it hush hush. Should they have filled IDW in? Sure, but again, hindsight.
Chosen isn't a fair example, and even Whedon indicates that. A: Buffy's title. B: Buffy's FINALE! There wasn't nearly time to explain all of Angel's stuff like we would have maybe liked. C: from a strictly in-verse reason: He knew what Buffy was about to face. Why in the world would he dump his problems on her and be a downer, given that scenario? I mean, Angel may be petty but he's not a total dick.
Dark Horse didn't announce this in any big way. Hell, they probably did it subtly hoping to avoid this sort of thing (stupid them on that one). I don't see how this lends itself to overreacting unless you think freaking out at the drop of a hat is a good plan.
I can't stress this enough to all sides: Wait till we have the details before making a judgment. There's no reason to be losing our heads over this, regardless of what happens.

That said, those who are bashing Dark Horse as a title are forgetting something: That's where Whedon's based right now. Are you honestly saying that he isn't qualified to plot out his own characters?
I don't see why this is causing such a stir. Joss is at Dark Horse, if he wants to have an Angel title there, then so be it.. he's the creator of the character. I bet this is just a mini-series anyways and won't be affecting IDW. As long as Franco Urru doesn't do the artwork, I will be happy. Nothing against the man, he's put a lot of hard work into his Angel/Spike artwork. But his artwork doesn't agree with me and prefer someone with a little cleaner artistic style.
@KingofCretins

The man was going to give up everything to be in a magical sexland with Buffy.

I'm sorry - but giving up his son should have been a major thing. But with Angel being on 'Buffy' it wasn't. So ya - I think there should have been time to deal with it considering how important Connor was to Angel. The most important in fact.
Great. I hope more Joss involvement this time.
"After the Fall" was ok (didn't love it, but I take it as canon). The rest of the series-multiple spinoffs... not interested in them.
He may be based there, but It doesn't mean what their producing is any good imo.
Here's my hope, that the Angel series is a collaboration between DH and IDW. How that will work I don't know, but hopefully, it allows both continuities to gel in a way that doesn't negate the IDW stuff after After the Fall.

Also, a Whedon-related news that is threatening to tear apart the fandom, it must be a day that ends in "Y".
About Connor: Angel was trying to get Buffy to side with him, and to do so quickly....
Does anyone believe that telling her about Connor would do anything but impede that plan? Come on, if she heard he and Darla went at it it'd fully destroy his credibility for her...Of course he'd also have to explain how Darla was even alive....Christ Connor's just a void under the Buffy title. Given how much would need to be explained, I wonder if that'll ever come up between the two characters x.x
It's a fair point to say Connor should have been on his mind but it's also fair to point out that something's clearly up with Angel and influencing him so he may well believe that "Twilight" is the answer to all the relevant problems it seems to spark.

@Sue, I get that you don't like it (how could I not?). That doesn't change the point though that the two function better within the same room where both titles know what's going on with the other.
Trunktheslayer: I don't think anyone is saying Joss "isn't qualified to plot out his own characters". (Though let's keep in mind that, especally with Angel and his cast, lots of other cooks were in that particular kitchen.) But--speaking for myself--I am also not willing to stipulate that every storyline Joss touches automatically turns to gold. Twilight, for me, is the Cordelia/Connor level giant mis-step of the comics iteration of the shows.
Everything will be fine, especially if Joss is back at the wheel. You're all gonna have heart attacks, though, if you keep on worrying.

Also, angeliclestat: how do you know Angel didn't deal with any Connor issues before he became Twilight? Maybe this will be explored in the future, in some flashback or mini-series or whatever. I also think it's safe to say that Angel isn't exactly himself as Twilight.
eddy, maybe the contract was up and Dark Horse outbid them in renewing it from 20th Century Fox. Or maybe something else. We'll find out soon enough.

Riker, folks're free to like whichever character they like regardless of status in the Buffyverse franchise or who came first or whatever. You said, "Without Buffy, there is no Angel! He's not a standalone character!", but to be fair, he kinda was for a year there. When Angel Season 5 aired, no Buffy running alongside it. The character, and the series, stood fine on its own (and during concurrent seasons where there was little mention of Buffy characters or crossovers, like the bulk of Angel Season 4). I was with you on the enthusiasm over potentially seeing the franchise back under the same roof (although mine's a little more guarded, dependant on what Dark Horse does with the Angel--and Spike?--comics and what's "counted" from IDW's run, how they incorporate all that), but you've kinda gone off the rails when you start attacking other folks' opinions, IMO.
Also, a Whedon-related news that is threatening to tear apart the fandom, it must be a day that ends in "Y".


Nice to see humour isn't a casualty of this yet ;) I'm starting to envy the browncoats. Sure, they only had one season and a movie, but none of this drama.

I guess Joss is too busy with Avengers to comment on this mess.
For reals. Was there ever this much fandom drama when the shows where on air? I mean apart from shippers I can't think of anything that would have caused such controversy, but I wasn't online back in those days.
Pat, if you think bringing up -- for the very first time, textually -- the subject of Connor to Buffy was relevant to the plot of him trying to explain he isn't evil to her (which, let's face it, already was falling flat on its face with a lot of the audience, if not with Buffy), then we're not going to be able to find much common ground on the definitions of either "plot" or "relevance". Could it have been shoe-horned into 8.35? Maaaaaaybe, I suppose, but it really didn't belong there either. Try to approach the scene like you would if you were an actor doing improv -- "your goal is to convince her to abandon her world and everyone she knows in it to start a new reality with you -- GO". Are you going to work in the teenage son she's never heard into that pitch? I'd love to hear how.
@trunktheslayer

You are understanding me. I am sayin that I cannot accept the Angel would do something like this without hugely thinking about leaving Connor. But it is never referenced...never shown...it is such a huge hole in the story for me.

it works for the bangels and for the buffy lovers. But for those that want Angel to stand alone from buffy (apart from the odd crossover), it just does not work.
Not saying he should have told Buffy. I'm saying it should have been addressed. Allie said we'd know why Angel was doing what he was doing by #35, but... no. No, we don't. We have no idea, besides Meltzer saying that it's the power of love that made him choose Buffy over the world.

I liked the issues and I like Meltzer a lot, but it's not enough. It *has* to be addressed in the "Last Gleaming" arc for the sake of consistency in character and suspension of disbelief.
I hate to call out individuals, but I feel like Riker was removed but angeliclestat is more calmly fanning flames of paranoia and negativity, and they carried their argument into this thread together. Not that either of them is more right, or that angeliclestat should be removed, it just seems like Riker was overreacting to a feeling of being ganged up on, which I can understand reading this thread.

In my opinion Lynch truly captures the spirit of Angel the series and Spike the character, and anything he's done before or after Joss's involvement matters to me. The writer after Lynch introduced real angels (something I believe to be antithetical to the entire universe) and completely misrepresented Kate (one of my favorite characters that no one else likes), threw in a werejaguar, and turned Angel into a Sookie Stackhouse novel without Sookie in it. Which actually isn't a bad idea. Willingham has been mediocre at best, but then I don't get the whole Fables fascination, either, and his tantrum didn't help.

None of this matters, however. The series share a universe, and I have been frustrated now for 6 or 7 years as two heroes in the same universes continually fought separate APOCALYPSES, which made no sense. It was particularly apparent in S7 of Buffy and S4 of Angel, when the First had begun in Buffy by trying to get Angel to kill himself. It should have been the same Apocalypse. I am excited to see both series under one banner, and think much of the character inconsistencies and continuity issues will be resolved. I also don't think it means IDW can no longer publish anything with Angel and the gang -- what if it means they get to start publishing things with Oz or Willow or what have you?

Joss has said multiple times that this is all leading toward a shared universe again, part of the motivation behind Twilight was to get the entire gang back on the same network. Angel was a separate show from season 2 on, long before Buffy moved to UPN. The comics can coexist without interfering with one another, but it would be nice for them to be able to mention one another and what is happening in each other's books again, not to mention have repercussions for one another when something is massive.
So..who else can't wait to see Jo Chen's Illyria covers?


For reals. Was there ever this much fandom drama when the shows where on air? I mean apart from shippers I can't think of anything that would have caused such controversy, but I wasn't online back in those days.


I didn't come into the fandom til season 6 and there was alot of Marti Noxon drama back then. The Scott Allie bashing is eerily similar.

[ edited by eddy on 2010-08-18 21:55 ]
Wow, step away from the computer for a few hours and fandom explodes.

Has it been confirmed that Dark Horse has reaquired the rights to the Angel characters?
Oh my god.
eddy, I am salivating at the thought of Jo Chen doing a cover of Illyria.
It would be awesome.
Re: Connor. I think the issue here is not that Angel has forgotten about him or doesn't care; or that it's a plothole created by shoehorning a standalone character back into his parent series - it's just that they haven't gotten to addressing it yet. It's been a long few months of reading the comics, but in the actual comic timeline it's only been, what, an hour or two between issue #32 and #35? It's a bit unfair to attack the series or the people behind it when we haven't been given the full story yet... and I say that in regards to Connor as well as the entire Twilight concept.
menomegirl, nothing is confirmed.
I was wondering that same thing Kris (about a bidding war landing in DH's favor). For a few reasons, I hope that's not really the case: Namely because it'll turn whatever healing there's been since Covergate(is that really what we're calling it?) between the two companies into an even worse rift. Of course, in terms of Buffyverse material, that wouldn't really matter but it would still fall into the category of 'dick move'.


On a totally indirect note: If Angel is, in fact, going back under Dark horse that'll mean all of Whedon's original series will be back under the same roof. (and that includes Dr. Horrible and Dollhouse), so that's pretty nifty.


@Angelic: Please don't speak for other people because I'm neither a Bangel shipper, nor someone who wants Angel to be anything other than his own character. That doesn't change what I've said though: Bringing up Connor, in the scenes Buffy and Angel have shared thus far in season 8, would have been a bad move. It would have detracted from what he was aiming to do with Buffy to the point that he would have failed his apparent mission. If you take context into account, it works fine. Maybe not for you, but it works for some clearly so let's not go pretending that's a universal fact.
We're not in Angel's head. Connor may be crossing his mind, he might not. Don't know. But verbally, there is NOWHERE in the issues so far where he could have brought Connor up. If there is, then please show me where that would have made even a lick of sense.
We don't know what's up with Angel. He's obviously been influenced to some degree and convinced of the inherent good and power of Twilight. He may well believe that he could bring Connor or whoever up onto that plane, or use that plane to protect Connor. Or, like others have said, Connor may already have been handled as an issue in some form that we just haven't seen.
Again: You're expecting Angel's backstory to take precedence in Buffy's title. That doesn't work. Under his own title, then you'd be justified here but as it stands, it's not the time nor the place.

And I'll say it once more: Five more issues. Let's not pretend the game is already over.
Surely it isn't too soon to have hoped for any explanation of Angel's bizzare behaviour in Buffy season 7 episode 22? That was just ignored so I tend to think similar issues with season 8 will also be treated in the same way.
WOW and wow. This would be all kinds of awsome. ALL KINDS. Having Buffy and Angel on the same station again, so to speak...wow.

Brian Lynch can write for Buffy and Angel after Spike, that would be amazing too. What incredible news to come home to.
@Matt7325: agreed. I think part of the problem is the amount of expositional explaining Giles has been doing basically in the span of a few seconds because comic book timing is different and the concept behind this villain and this apocalypse is more complex than any of the others and not cut and dry in the least. The only villain I can think of that was this multifaceted was Glory who was Ben who needed a key which was Dawn who is Buffy's little sister that everyone remembers except us oh and she's not a demon she's a god. Everyone else has just been really old vampire, evil Angel, evil Slayer and evil Mayor, evil Willow, and the First Evil. Complex characters, maybe, personal stakes, sure, but relatively easy to explain in a few seconds, motivation and character wise.
@PuppetDoug.

I am not fanning any flames. I am stating how worried I am based on the way that Angel has been portrayed in DH comics. I think rightly worried.

Riker wasn't being ganged up on. He just had a lot of people disagreeing with him. Which shows I am not the only one upset at this news.
You're not, angeliclestat. I'm outright devastated.
@trunktheslayer
"You're expecting Angel's backstory to take precedence in Buffy's title"

No...but I am expecting it to count. Which it never has.

And I wasn't speakin for you re:bangel and buffy lovers being most happy at this. But it does seem to be the case, no?
You see I am one of those that believes Buffy and Angel's story together was over ages ago. He had his own life in LA. I have no objections to him having contact with her, or to be a part of her life. But not going back to being just in her life.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 22:06 ]

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 22:08 ]
About the only thing that really gets me excited is the idea of Jo Chen doing an Illyria cover--that I would like to see.

Ultimately, until there's more deets I don't really have much to say. I don't think season eight is an unmitigated disaster, but Angel's characterization has been (probably) the weakest point so far. I don't have any particular interest in the IDW line but without knowing that DH will be doing, I don't really know whether to expect anything different at DH. Will Joss be working on the project? (It's not that everything Joss does turns to gold, but I'm interested in him as a writer.)
Thanks, gossi.

Well, then. I see no need to get my panties in a bunch over this until I know something definite.
Joss Whedon is doing "The Avengers." He's busy, to the point where Scott Allie, who previously said he wasn't right for the tone of Buffy and didn't get the characters' voices, had to jump in at the last minute to co-write the last arc.

And now "Angel" is moving to Dark Horse.

What?
Exactly Pat. I doubt Angel will be getting much Joss attention still - which is what people seem to be most excited about.
Great thread!
I (kinda) love it when people get excited about this sort of thing...very few specifics, massive assumptions and no facts! Woohoo! (I hope this isn't going to be a return to the great canon wars of '07!)

Lets remember we're all in the same Scooby Gang here!
@angeliclestat: I can understand your concerns, I was just saying it takes two people to fight and I can understand him freaking out about everyone disagreeing with him at once. It was less about you being wrong about anything and more about people still arguing at someone who'd already been taken off the thread. Sorry if it came off differently.

But I also don't get being devastated, other than being a fan of Angel and hating Buffy which as a fan of both for completely different reasons, I don't get, either. But as I said, I think they can coexist without constantly interacting, but I would like it if two characters who are not just in the same universe but the SAME STATE who fight world-ending threats could acknowledge each other's threats or the fallout from each other's fights, if not fighting them together.

Hopefully some of the IDW teams meld with the Dark Horse teams and we get the best of one world. Remember that while an editor has power, the creative teams and Joss have more power because these are licensed characters, not characters owned by Dark Horse or IDW. The problem then becomes talent contracts.

But I would love some Jo Chen Illyria, or Molina drawing Lorne, as much as I want Lynch to write some Buffy issues or Frank Urru to do a Ripper series. We'll just have to wait and see.

[ edited by PuppetDoug on 2010-08-18 22:15 ]
PuppetDoug: I'm devastated because the team I love most in comics (made up of the most down to Earth people and, in my opinion, the best writers and artists in the business) won't be working on Angel anymore. Because Joss is already too busy (rightfully so, the Avengers gig kicks ass) to finish a story he'd been scheduled to script since 2007. And for many other reasons.

So yes, very, very upset. And confused.
Urru to do a Ripper series


oh god yes
Urru to do a Ripper series

Oh, God no.
@PuppetDoug
"I think they can coexist without constantly interacting, but I would like it if two characters who are not just in the same universe but the SAME STATE who fight world-ending threats could acknowledge each other's threats or the fallout from each other's fights, if not fighting them together."

This we agree on. But this was the way of things even when the shows were on the air, why should things change now. And anyway there aren't in the same state anymore. Buffy is half way acorss the world - and Angel has sworn to protect the people of LA, back to helping the helpless.

Also we would not have been talkin about this if Joss hadn't used Angel as Twilight. Which would have been nice.
Ok so I haven't read all the posts... there's a LOT of them. But has anyone considered that there may not be a licensing conflict? See, Dark Horse has the rights to Buffy and all its characters. Angel is technically a Buffy character. If none of the characters on Angel are featured in the Dark Horse series, there may not be an issue.

And that could play out in many ways. The IDW series could continue down its current path, while the Dark Horse series may explore his transition into Twilight. Or what comes after that. The IDW series might be building up to the events that could be what the Dark Horse series ends up being... The possibilities are endless.

I'd say we can't really be sure until either Dark Horse or IDW clears it up.
@Mitholas

Well I hope you are right.

And a proper announcement from Dark Horse which is not just a little throwaway line at the end of a letter column would be nice.
Everyone DOES realize that the Angel title going over to Dark Horse doesn't mean it's being absorbed into Buffy...right?
Cuz I'm seeing a lot of fears like that and it's odd to me. I think it's a safe bet that the two series will remain as separate entities, just with far easier access to one another than when they were at different companies. Angel is going as a title, not just a character. That makes it clear that the Angel series is going to continue on, just at a new place (like how Buffy went from WB to UPN...oh god knows what kind of insanity that statement is gonna spark).
Again, look at when both shows aired on WB. Was Angel all about Buffy then?
I think Brian Lynch writes Angel the best but since he wasn't set to continue, I am seriously excited about the move. More Joss involvement is a very good thing, imo.
And the fact that neither has isn't reflecting well on either of them. I guess in time IDW will clarify their position and we'll find out if Dark Horse had had the decency to tip them off that they were releasing this news today. If IDW knew ahead of time it's very poor show that they didn't have a statement ready to go as soon as the news broke.
I'm still holding my breath about Twilight. I'm waiting for Joss to cap off the season before I decide whether they've explained it enough. I still remember Joss and Allie saying this wouldn't interfere with IDW's continuity, which still strikes me as an odd statement. Is this even the real Angel at all, or has something possessed him in an attempt to get Buffy to abandon the world? Something is going on here that has yet to be elucidated.

Some do not like Frank Urru. Some love him. I love him, but I think a real inker (one who does not use a wide brush to black out everything he does not like) would seriously clear up his art, something you could count on at DH. Either way I hope no one is suddenly excluded from working on these characters.

I like the series writers, but they haven't been able to get a handle on comic book pacing. I like comics writers, but most of them don't have the characters' voices right. To me, only the people who have written TV and comic books before are really getting everything right -- Joss, Brian Vaughn, and exception that makes the rule: Brian Lynch. Every time anyone else writes, something feels off -- either timing, character, or the story itself feels wrong. I'd like all three of those guys to be able to work together.
@trunktheslayer

You may be right. But 'Angel' the series had a lot of writers (Minear, Bell, Mere Smith, Elizabeth Craft and Sara Fain etc ) who didnt write on Buffy and were able to give Angel his own world and mission.

if Joss is totally in charge then I am worried that he will just turn Angel back into Buffy's love and ignore all that has happened to him on his own show and comic, and ignore the characters that have become so important to Angel.

That's what worries me.
There are a lot of separate issues all being mushed together here and it's not helping. I get that people don't like the way that Angel has been characterised when he's returned to Buffy, on TV and the comic (cause I agree), but that's not what we're talking about here. He'd have his own comic at Dark Horse. There's no reason to think that he'd be playing second fiddle to Buffy.

We don't know what's going on anyway. Hopefully facts aren't too long in coming.
@helcat

Well considering that Ryall posted that:

"We'll be addressing this soon, so please bear with us. Thanks, for your patience and your support. Back soon. "

it sounds like they were caught off guard.
That's how it sounds to me too, so it looks like another black mark to Dark Horse in my book but I'm trying to be fair and considering the option that IDW are just terribly disorganised.
@angeliclestat I have a hard time believing people on Whedonesque of all places, are questioning Joss's capability to keep Angel a standalone comic series. It's Joss. If he's not helming the project, I'm probably not going to consider it as canonical. And while I like certain things that aren't canonical, I'm a lot less patient with other series runners than I am with Joss, because I know that Joss will almost always come through in a way that I will like.
So if Joss makes an Angel series on DH, I trust he knows what he's doing.
I'm very curious how TPTB are going to address the questions flying right now.I've enjoyed what IDW has done but I do admit that like the idea of BTVS And ATS at one company again.

But we really have little info right now and a lot of speculation.

I'm in wait and see mode.If we only have one more year of IDW books than I plan to enjoy them while we have them.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2010-08-18 22:38 ]
@Angeliclestat: He didn't do that on Angel's show, he won't do it in the comic. Why people are debating whether or not other people - fans and creators alike - are able to recognise that Angel can hold his own story is beyond me considering it was proven true eleven years ago. No offense but you've been running on this train of thought for the entire post and several other posters have already pointed out again and again that it's a fear unfounded.
Interesting.
@Mitholas

HAHA - ya it might not be the place to do it - but I have always stood by my opniion that Joss never really knew what to do with Angel after the B/A romance reached its apex at the end of 'Buffy' Season 3 - the fact that all of his appearances on Buffy (and now Twilight) after he left prove that.

It was the other writers (Greenwalt,Minear, Fury,Bell, DeKnight, Smith etc) that turned Angel into the epic amazing show I know and love. Not Whedon.

So ya..I am doubting his ability to keep Angel a standalone comic, since his only interest seems to be having Angel as Buffys love.
@Marr7325

See my post above for why I think it is a fear very much founded:)


Anyway - you are right. I have said my say. I will be back when there is more concrete news.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 22:45 ]
So..who else can't wait to see Jo Chen's Illyria covers?

That sounds amazing.
Joss didn't know what to do with Angel after the Buffy/Angel romance ended? Um, what about that one time that Joss spun him off into his own show, which lasted for five years, established its own very distinct mythology, and brought in people as fans who had never seen 'BtVS' - or even disliked it?

It's a bit silly to say Joss has no concept of Angel outside of being Buffy's boyfriend. Fair enough he wasn't as hands-on with 'Angel' as he was 'BtVS', but he was hardly sitting in the corner, twiddling his thumbs and saying "no worries Tim, do whatever you want. Great script Steve - I didn't bother reading it but I'm you did okay!"

Come on. Joss is hardly flawless and it's no secret that 'Buffy' is his baby, but if there's any writer in the Mutant Enemy staff who has proven they don't just see Angel as Buffy's love, it's Joss.
@Angelic: I quit. That last one (at me) made it pretty clear you're either dodging what I say entirely, or just aren't getting it.
What I said had nothing to do with the writers themselves. It had to do with the fact that they interacted and could thus keep each other informed on what was happening.
Your fears about Angel being usurped by Buffy, simply because they're in the same house, are ridiculous at best. That's been explained as clearly as can be. Angel will remain it's own series. That's almost a given. Angel has been it's own series on the same network as Buffy before and, guess what? It wasn't all about Buffy. Why should it be now?
Please stop acting like Angel the Series going to Dark Horse means that it will be assimilated into Buffy and cease to exist. THAT is the situation you're describing. If Angel's title will simply be done under Dark Horse now then there is absolutely no basis for your claim that it'll become all about Angel being Buffy's love interest. By your logic, Angel in seasons 1 and 2 of his show should have simply been whining about Buffy the entire time.
Your claims about Joss not knowing what to do with the character don't work either. There will still be other writers. Just like on the show, Joss will be the one handling the overall plot most likely, but that's always been the case. This comic is NOTHING NEW when compared with the televised seasons.
Sorry I am upsetting you trunktheslayer-but I have my fears and until proven otherwise by the company I am going to worry about it.

I am not the only one who is worried so don't put it all on me.
@angeliclestat: Totally agree that the portrayal thus far in Buffy, both live action and comic book, of Angel has been to subdue him to a supporting cast member of Buffy -- but Buffy, in her two appearances in Angel, became nothing more than Angel's love interest. Not to mention, Spike had grown into a 3 dimensional character capable of holding his own series over the seasons on Buffy but when he showed back up on Angel regressed to the character that he had been the last time we'd seen him on Angel. Though the fights between them held all the facts of the character's progression, they did not have the heart of it -- but psychologically, people tend to regress to the last point at which we saw someone upon meeting them again. Ever been to a class reunion?

I agree with NotaViking that Angel continuing to have his own series will mean that in his series, he will take precedent, and vice versa.
The problem, Angelic, is that you're ignoring the fact that Angel will still be in his own series. You're using how he's shown in Buffy to complain about how he'll look in his own series. History and logic both demonstrate why that doesn't work.
The reason he's pushed to 'side character' in Buffy is because he IS a side character there. His past characterization counts but not if it isn't relevant which, thus far in season 8, it hasn't been. Especially in any way that he would have a chance to verbalize it.
In the Angel-title he's the main character and that's where you'll get what you want.
Look at seasons 1 and 2 of Angel. Stop ignoring their existence, simply because they drive a stake into your worries. The two can, and have, coexisted under the same title without committing the offenses you fear, at least within their own stories.
psychologically, people tend to regress to the last point at which we saw someone upon meeting them again. Ever been to a class reunion?


Associative regression. Or "revertigo", if you prefer ;)


Also, trunks is saying everything I want to say but aren't.
My fear is because Joss will be the one giving the storyline-and I simply do not trust him after what he did to the character in Season 8.

I am not ignoring seasons 1 and 2 -they had Greenwalt as showrunner.I just do not trust Josd with the character because I think Angel Is not a priority for him- he is not Buffy.I want someone in charge of the series that *will* put Angel as their priority.

I do not believe Joss will.
@angeliclestat: Well I think there's reason for your fear -- he's stated overtly that he's basically a Bangel shipper. Greenwalt was the last person other than Joss I truly loved in charge of Angel, unless you count Lynch. But I think it's remiss to say Greenwalt was doing everything that was right about the show and Joss was doing everything that didn't work even though the show seemed to flounder without Greenwalt. I think that it would be safe to say that since the beginning of Angel, Joss is ultimately responsible for each project, but that the second head writer or showrunner he chooses helps to define what makes that title different. Tim Minear helped define Firefly, Greenwalt defined Angel for me and his departure didn't sit well until Angel hit S5 and Ben Edlund joined the staff. With Buffy, Marti Noxon began to define what post-high school Buffy was.

Oh, and Jed and Maurissa help define both Dr. Horrible and Dollhouse.

[ edited by PuppetDoug on 2010-08-18 23:42 ]
He wrote and storylined the character all through five seasons of Angel's own show, which you've ignored. Greenwalt may have been the showrunner, but it was still Whedon in the driver's seat. He's the one who got the final 'yay or nay' vote. If Angel weren't a major character to Whedon, then we wouldn't have gotten the spin off in the first place. If Buffy was all there was to Angel, then Joss would never have thought "Hey, let's give him an entirely different show that doesn't have her".

And again, you're ignoring the disparity between "Angel" in his own series, and in someone else's. That's a major factor. Of course, we're also back to the fact that we DON'T KNOW what he's "done to the character" in season 8. There are still numerous gaps to be filled in, so that's a completely unfair piece to go after. We don't have that story yet, so we can't use it to praise or bash Joss yet.
If there is someone as good as Brian Lynch who will be 'show runner' for DH-then fine.But not Joss.
I might be a little slow but I'm not quite sure what all the fuss is about.

Angel is already in the DH comics. Spike has arrived there too. It's a fait accompli.
@trunktheslayer

He is making him into a masked villain responsible for the death of a lot of people, but it's ok cos it was for love-giving ip his mission and his son to go into an alternate universe to be with Buffy.

If there is more to it than that then I will come back and sat I was wrong.I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.but I don't think I will have to do that.

And what you are not inderstanding is that I just do not trust Joss to do right by Angel and his friends and universe. I just don't.you can shout at me all you want-but it's what I think.I would prefer the character to be away from him and in the hands of someone who will make him their priority.Which Joss never has.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 23:59 ]

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-18 23:59 ]
Huzzah! IDW Angel was good, but clearly non-canon. I do of course respect the writers and their work. B8t I was never much a fan of the art of After the Fall... I did like some of the other stuff, like Blood and Trenches, and some of the Spike miniseries.

I am glad that all the Buffyverse stuff can be under one roof, so to speak. It will be nice to have more than one Dark Horse Buffyverse series. And maybe it means we will have some Whedon alums writing for Angel again?
I have no investment in this issue at all, but my thoughts go way back to when the S8 Buffy started and there were concerns about how the Angel series- which was at another publisher- would harmonize with the Buffy series. All this says to me is, they decided to address this by bringing it all back in house; this way they manage to keep control over both series so that conflict in canon going forward never arises. I would be interested in seeing how this was all worked out: what kind of arrangement was made, etc. I have never been much of a fan of Angel, never made it past the first few eps of S3, so don't see that I will read any book on him. Given my increasingly unhappiness with the BTVS series, I guess this just means I end up no longer following the story, but that's just me.
Have you seen Angel kill anyone? Let alone 'a lot of people'? There's also his point about "Had I not done this, it would have been worse".
This is my point. It isn't just that we don't know why he's done what he's done. We don't even know exactly what it is that he's done.

So basically what it comes down to is "I'm worried that Joss'll fail here because I'm worried that Joss will fail here". That's...something. "I just don't" doesn't really help anyone to understand why though. What went wrong with Angel in his own series that you can peg on Joss? Your only example so far is how he's acted in a separate title, but nothing that actually explains why he'll be mishandled in his own.
Angel was, and remains, the priority in his series (which was run by Whedon overall). To expect that to translate over to the Buffy title isn't fair.

You're welcome to believe what you want, but I like to see a person's reasoning. "I just don't" isn't reasoning, it's the very lack thereof. It comes off as worrying for the sake of worrying, and not actually having any solid reason behind it. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm dogging you on that, or if I'm being mean. I don't mean to be. I just can't wrap my head around your logic, all things considered.
The only thing I would miss about IDW is their great hardcovers. I own all the After The Fall ones and I really love them. Pretty well done.

And I need to say this, even if it's not popular. Angel's End Of Days behavior apart, if Angel is not showing any interest in any of his IDW characters on his S8 run is because Joss doesn't care for them. I'm pretty sure he even doesn't know what's hapenning once After The Fall ended.

So I hope that if the "new Angel series" is going to be "Joss-supervised, all this things will be adressed.

I'd love to see a definitive take on Illyria, i.e.

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2010-08-19 00:14 ]
Comicbookresources has mention of this on their front page:

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2010/08/angel-returning-to-dark-horse-late-next-year/
I think it's a bit of a leap to assume that Joss will be finding the time to oversee the Angel comics even when they are at Dark Horse. I mean couldn't Joss have done that with the title at IDW had he wanted to? Yes the Dark Horse editors can keep the storylines in line but that wouldn't mean Joss was directing the comic line.
Generally, I like the IDW comics better than Dark Horse. Perhaps I'm about to save a lot of money by only buying Superman and the Fantastic Four.

Cause I'm on the verge of dropping TV spin-offs.
I am VERY happy about this news. I remain on the fence about Angel’s characterisation in S8 but at least he’s got a story over at Darkhorse. Angel has been sidelined in his own title since AtF ended and I for one expect Angel to be front and centre of his book. I don’t mind the focusing shifting to the other characters occasionally but Angel has been a background character in his own story for way too long. It’s become apparent to me that IDW are only interested in Spike and Illyria and I want the title to be with a company who are interested in telling stories about Angel too.

Like I said, I remain undecided about Angel's characterisation in S8 because we really don't know the full story yet. So I can sympathise with why people may be concerned how Angel will be written over at Darkhorse but personally I think this is the best thing for the character. I have full confidence that he'll actually get a decent story again and will be given the kind of material the character deserves. I'm also thrilled this is meant to coincide with S9 as it probably means Ats will get a canonical continuation which it was never going to get with IDW. I hope this means DH has secured the rights to *all* the characters again as it'd also solve the problems present in S8 where Whedon has been limited about what characters he can include into Angel's story.

I have been very disappointed by the quality of writing over at IDW and think ALL characters will benefit from this move. That may be a bit presumptuous as we don't know who will be writing the Ats comics but so far DH have had a much better track record with their writers than IDW have had. Armstrong, Williams and Willingham didn’t have a feel for the verse at all and I think we’re much more likely to get better writers working on the Ats title under DH (possibly Joss and other writers from the TV shows) than we did under IDW. I've talked a lot about Angel benefiting from this move but that's also true of Illyria, Gunn, Connor and Spike as well who have all been written very poorly for quite some time. I hope this means we'll also ditch all those boring new additions to the cast and focus on the TV characters again.
Thanks angeliclestat. I added the CBR coverage to the entry.
If there is someone as good as Brian Lynch who will be 'show runner' for DH-then fine.But not Joss.


Maybe I read this out of context when I was skimming this entire thread, but are you suggesting that anyone would be a better fit to write for the ANGEL title than Joss Whedon? o_0

Imma make a list:

- City Of
- Sanctuary (in which Angel kicks Buffy to the curb to be his own man)
- Judgment
- Waiting in the Wings (in which Whedon pushes forward a Angel romance with someone other than Buffy)
- Spin the Bottle (hands down one of the funniest AtS episodes ever)
- Conviction
- A Hole in the World
- Not Fade Away (in which Whedon rejected Sarah Michelle Gellar being available for a cameo because he didn't want Buffy stealing the limelight)

When did Joss suddenly become unworthy to write for this character? Huhwhatnow? (As for Season 8, I'm still expecting more story development here so that's not really in play since it's not finished yet.)

And let's not forget that Lynch's After the Fall was created with Joss (plotting out the arc and some detailed script feedback for the first issues). I'm sorry, but unless Tim Minear or David Greenwalt (both of whom have written some of the greatest AtS episodes ever) speak up and say they want to run an ANGEL comic, Joss is always gonna be at the front of the list for me (especially over an unknown 'cause... seriously?), not only for his writing ability and vision and sheer unmitigated talent, but because he has one of the best eyes for recruiting great writing talent.

Considering the trainwreck that was Armstrong's arc and that in Willingham's run Angel has been pushed to the sidelines and rendered what? impotent? boring? ineffectual... considering all that, I'd think folks would be thanking Baby Jesus for a closer connection to Joss.

Let's run an ANGEL comics draft pick. I'll go first: Joss Whedon. After, that I predict Lynch would be drafted as #2. #3 John Byrne. (If Minear or Greenwalt were actually into writing comics, I'd say one of those two would go as first and second picks.)

If IDW's ANGEL title was a sinking ship that'd just hit an iceberg, I'd put in great effort to get these three creatives on a life boat: Brian Lynch, John Byrne and Franco Mantovani (the brilliant colorist for the final issues of After the Fall)--if only to save their fingers from getting frostbite so they could continue their craft without delay. Everyone else... the frostbite interference would be a reprieve and in some cases an improvement for the ANGEL story.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-19 01:48 ]
Oh wow, is this topic intense. Sometimes I wonder if the amount of fan-intensity is in indirect proportion to how much information is available.

Going to step out of the lurky shadows to give my 2 cents for a change.

The comics in general have been interesting. Both at DH and IDW. When Joss first announced the BS8 comic, I was pretty thrilled. Although at the time, I didn't really understand the sheer commitment that would be. I mean, that was four years ago. That's insane. And since then, Joss has had so many other projects happening. Dollhouse. Dr. Horrible. Cabin in the Woods. Now The Avengers. I feel like, while he does care about the comics and these characters, they are simply not on his radar as much as some of his other stuff is.

I liked Angel: After the Fall. I thought it was really well done. It was clear that Joss had involvement, although clearly not as much as we would have liked beforehand. But I think that it turned out great as Lynch really seems to be a great writer and definitely has a handle on those characters. But as soon as ATF ended, the IDW books all seemed to go downhill for me. When Kelley Armstrong came on, I really stopped caring for it.

She really tried to make it her own, which can be a good thing, but in this case I think it was just to much. It is important for a writer to be able to bring something new to the table but also to be able to understand and respect what came before. I think Armstrong ended up doing things too differently, to the point where it just didn't feel like Angel anymore. I don't know that she ever really understood the character of Angel (at least how I understand him, but again, that's a matter of opinion). She also brought in a lot of new characters. I'm not saying new characters are bad. In fact, I would say that a series that has been going on for as long as Angel could use some new characters to keep things fresh. But, to me, the angel, the were-cat, they just seemed... odd. Like, the idea was there, but they didn't really have any substance to them. Very 2-Dimensional. And when you add in a bunch of 2-Dimensional characters that take away time from the characters we already care about, we will only resent them. I'm not trying to fault her here. I'm sure she was a great writer. I just don't feel she was a good fit for Angel, and the book suffered in my eyes.

Several times, I considered no longer reading Angel, but I kept forgetting to cancel my hold at the comic shop, so I ended up getting them anyway. (I know, pretty wishy-washy, huh?) Willingham seems to be doing better than Armstrong did, but still I feel like the Angel comics haven't felt like Angel since Lynch left. I realize that that is my own opinion and other people might disagree. So I feel like Angel going over to Dark Horse could be a great thing. Inject some new life into a series that I still feel has a great amount of potential.

However, I also am not sure how I feel about Dark Horse. It's clear that Joss has had a lot more involvement with S8 than he ever did over at IDW, even with ATF. But still I am hesitant to loudly proclaim the quality of S8. I have definitely enjoyed a great deal of it, but at the same time, I have this sinking feeling that its just not "Buffy" anymore.

And I hate that. It reminds me of that blog-post a few days ago about when Buffy ended and about how things need to change to stay alive and fresh. I would agree. And so I'm worried that maybe I am just reacting to how different the comics are to the show. That the quality hasn't changed, just the setting, and that's all that's throwing me off.

At the same time, though, I do feel that they have faltered a bit with S8. I think for a good long time, they got so wrapped up in the lack of obstacles in a comic as compared to TV show that they lost something about what the comic should be. They were so busy doing awesome things that they could never have done in the show that they didn't stop to think about whether they should do them at all. So it feels, to me, as though the comic has lost the emotional center that it had in the show. That the writers got so wrapped up in the epic-ness of it all that maybe they forgot that the thing that has always made Buffy great was it's focus on characters. The fact that I can't tell you about what Buffy's Journey or Willow's Journey has been about this season is very telling. I'm not saying that stuff isn't there. It just seems so scattered and lost in all of the plot. Dawn has been a giant, a centaur, and a doll, because her boyfriend was a demon that she betrayed. And I'm not sure what any of that is supposed to MEAN about her or or her character. Maybe I'm just stupid, or maybe I'm just not seeing it for whatever reason. But that kind of stuff was all so clear for me on the show. Not so much here.

I should make a disclaimer in that I don't reread the issues. In fact, the most I do is read them, come to the black and read about people discussing them here, making the occasional comment. Then I stop thinking about it until the next issue. Lather, rinse, repeat. So it might just be that I am not seeing the cohesiveness of the story because my own intake of the story is scattered, and maybe I would benefit from a massive reread. For this reason, I am ultimately waiting until it ends and I can reread the series as a whole before I pass final judgement.

So now we get to Angel, which is what this whole post was meant to be about in the first place (sorry about that.) His portrayal in Season 8 IS inconsistent with what we have seen of him before. But I do think that it is very clear that we DO NOT know the whole story yet. It could be that Angel has, if not a good reason for doing what he has done, at least a believable reason that is in character. We don't know. We don't know why he became Twilight. We don't know where Connor is, or anyone else from AtS for that matter (Except Spike). And we haven't really gotten a chance to find out yet. It could be that this Angel really doesn't square up with the Angel we know and love, but I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and wait and see how this turns out.

If, in fact, Angel does get his own series at DH, then I will also wait and see what happens with that. At some point I might find that the Angel they are portraying is in no the Angel that I have come to know over the years. And that is the day that I will stop buying the comics (or be wishy-washy and get them anyway because I forget to cancel my hold). Until then, though, I'll give it a shot. All I can say is that I hope that, wherever Angel's at, Brian Lynch gets another crack at him, because he was one of my favorite Angel writers.

So, yeah. That two cents kind of turned into a billion cents. Sorry about that. I will probably go back to lurking now.

ETA: vampmogs and Emmie both said a lot of the same things that I said while I was busy writing this ridiculously long comment. And they said it more succinctly. Woops!

[ edited by Giles_314 on 2010-08-19 01:33 ]
I'm curious:
If this hadn't come up, if IDW still held Angel for the forseeable future, and Whedon went over to IDW to run the Angel comic there, would we be seeing this same explosion? Or at least something similar?
Those who don't like this shift: Is it because of Dark Horse itself (or at least, that Angel won't be under IDW) or is it because of Whedon?
Interested to see how all this plays out from both artistic and business aspects. Don't give a crap about canon or whether under one roof - anyone who thinks that Joss is actually going to be spending any time on this in the time of Avengers is nuts!
Re: Person who I feel is most qualified to deal with his own creation: So much word, I'm juggling both the Merriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries right now, Emmie. :)

[ edited by wenxina on 2010-08-19 02:15 ]
...So, I have a question, and it has to do with the Angel series, but it's a bit off-topic, but at the same time I really don't know where else to go with this.

I want to read "After the Fall" but to save money, I've been buying the trade paperbacks for volumes 1 and 2, and Spike: After the Fall. I can't seem to find 3 and beyond in anything but hardcover. Were these volumes ever released as trade paperbacks?

And just to make this comment a bit more on-topic: I think that the Spike monthly, spinning out of the Angel ongoing title, makes everything that happened post-AtF canon, since the Spike monthly will tie in to Buffy S8. So I highly doubt that Angel's move to a different publisher will "negate" the canonicity of it all. Thoughts?
Thoughts?

Yeah-just one.

Han Solo shot first.
Giles_314, great post. I was nodding along the entire way.

Merriam-Webster's and Oxford? Color me flattered, Xi. ;-)
@menomegirl: That's a great title for a genre porno. :)
@Emmie: Well, I'm very good at flattery.
Emmie, I think you meant "nodding OFF the entire way." :)

Waterkeeper, I don't think they ever released any of the Angel trades in anything other than hardcover.

ETA: Clarification.

[ edited by Giles_314 on 2010-08-19 02:21 ]
Epic post, Emmie, especially the laundry list of proof that Joss may actually know a little about this "Angle" fellow.
Ha!

"Did I fall asleep?"

"For a little long while."

;-)
She also brought in a lot of new characters. I'm not saying new characters are bad. In fact, I would say that a series that has been going on for as long as Angel could use some new characters to keep things fresh.

This is an interesting quote. See, in the Buffy series, I think Whedon had little choice but to rely on existing characters and not bring in too much new- this is NOT TV and the basis for the series was the characters we know and love. Since comics are static and take forever to develop (4 years for Buffy!), the media differs but I am not sure I believe that this tory is using it well- or maybe I have it backwards: in an attempt to use the media, the story has been lost. In this I agree with Giles (nice lurking post, by the way- I otherwise agree with you in that the stories of our base characters have been subsumed into something we are not sure about- and Angel? Who the heck knows).
It's been a while since I posted here but this slightly heated topic has dragged me back out of lurkerdom to add a few thoughts to the debate.

I'm a little surprised by this move, although in truth I wish it had always been the case that one company (either Dark Horse, IDW or whoever else) had had control of the entire Buffyverse franchise. I didn't like it when the two shows were on different networks and it seemed even more of a shame to me that the comic continuations ended up in different places too. So many of the problem that have caused so much fuss could have been avoided if both BtVS and Angel had been under the control of a single company. For one thing, we could probably have had five or six thousand fewer appearances of the word 'canon' around here!

That said, I'm not sure which of the two (Dark Horse or IDW) I would have chosen to have that control. Of all of the recent Buffy/Angel material I've read I'd have to say that After The Fall was far and away my favourite. Lynch and Urru did some incredible work on that series. I've loved the writing on Buffy Season 8, for the most part, but the artwork has been just too cartoony for my personal taste in comic art style. I would have prefered to see a more realistic, perhaps darker, artistic style. In fact, I'd have loved to see what Urru could do with the Buffy cast. Some of the post-Lynch writing for Angel has been less than fantastic but the art has rarely let me down. Basically, a mixed bag. My ideal situation would be Lynch and Urru working on the Angel series for Dark Horse. That I could get behind, very easily!

What I like most about the idea of Angel going back to Dark Horse, along with the rest of the original cast, is that it feels to me like Buffy Season 9 is going to be the end of the road, most likely leading up to the point in time that sets up the history of Fray. As such, it seems appropriate to me that the two series are able to converge back into a single, although multi-layered, story. I doubt anyone here would argue that if there is to be a grand finale to the current era of the Buffyverse then it's only right that Buffy, Angel, Spike, Faith, Giles, Willow, Xander, Gunn, Connor, Illyria and all the rest should be standing together at the end. It's only fitting that all the threads of a tale that began in Welcome to the Hellmouth (or the movie, if you prefer) are brought back together at the conclusion.

So I don't know about the rest of you but I'm choosing to see this as a good thing. You can worry about all the unknown factors all you like but I reckon we should at least wait until we know all the facts before we freak out. In so many ways, this could well be what the Buffyverse has been waiting for since The WB let BtVS go to UPN. A chance for real story cohesion again.

All of that said, I really hope that this won't effect the Spike series. I've accepted that I'm never getting a Spike television series. This was the last hope I had of my favourite character ever getting his well-deserved leading role. Fingers crossed that this move won't prevent that from happening.

"If IDW's ANGEL title was a sinking ship that'd just hit an iceberg, I'd put in great effort to get these three creatives on a life boat: Brian Lynch, John Byrne and Franco Mantovani...'

Just caught sight of this while I was previewing my post. Emmie, my dear, you are a lady of impeccable taste! ;)
I liken the potential of Angel returning to Dark Horse to the what Marvel did with X-Men in the early 90's: they split them up into two teams that existed separately in 2 different books but could combine and crossover when needed. I like that possibility.
I didn't care for the IDW Angel books, so for me, Angel can only go up.
My bet--also based on nothing--is that IDW chose to reinquish the license because their hero has suddenly become a supervillain who killed hundreds of people and then tried to destroy the world, along with, presumably, all the supporting characters he is supposed to respect and love from his IDW book (like his son, for example.)


If you bet the farm, you would be farm-less. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how these situations work -- you're using your own negative view of a storyline to color a situation. IDW wouldn't ditch the millions of dollars they make on a license because they're unhappy with what another publisher is doing in a storyline they could easily retcon themselves.
Giles_314: Sometimes I wonder if the amount of fan-intensity is in indirect proportion to how much information is available.

; >

This. Is. Wonderful. There ought to be an equation. (If I wasn't mathically-challenged, I'd write it.) Will someone write this for me? Someone who's all mathy and stuff?

At the very least there ought to be tees.


ETA: Although I am not as I say, mathically-gifted, to say the least, shouldn't that be in inverse proportion? Or: am I just wrong about that?

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2010-08-19 02:53 ]
Yes, you are completely right, QuoterGal. Can't believe I made that mistake. I'm in Calculus! :)

How about the standard:

F = 1/I

where F is Fan Intensity and I is Information?
farm-less


Darkshape, I get the business end of it, I was partly just venting. But not entirely. A lot of the money to be made on an Angel series (certainly nowhere near millions though--no way in hell is the license that lucrative when the book sells maybe 20,000 copies) is made on the basis of the perception that this is a Joss-Whedon approved, canon Angel. But now, the IDW series has just been dragged--without the courtesy of any advance notice at all, by the way--into the Twilight arc at Dark Horse, a competing publisher. In order to remain canon (whatever the word means these days) IDW will have to produce "Twilight Angel" stories (or "leading up to Twilight" anyway, since Twilight takes place "after" THE IDW stories) which one of their star writers has already balked at doing. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it could be the IDW decision-makers decided it was too much of a hassle to be forced to write the Angel characters according to a secret outline they were never even shown but which is now the set in stone "canon" of the character's future. That isn't what IDW signed on the dotted line for when they purchased the rights to the character. They now have been severely curtailed in the kinds of stories they can tell with this character they have paid good money to license, because his future has been set for them, and at a competing publisher no less. Add the fact that Dark Horse apparently really wants the license back and is willing to bid high, and maybe IDW said "good luck with it". I'm just speculating of course and maybe I'm 100% wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time. But what isn't speculation on my part is the fact that IDW was blindsided by all of this, and that as much as Joss said in interviews that he intended to go easy with the Angel characters in the Dark Horse comics because a different publisher had the rights to them, he in fact did nothing of the kind with Angel himself at least, and instead used Angel as a major, major piece of a sprawling story, and in the bargain, seemingly altered Angel's character in a lasting way, which would throw a giant monkey wrench into any future plans IDW, or their editors or writers, might have had for him if it isn't somehow retconned back.

[ edited by Hellmouthguy on 2010-08-19 03:22 ]
I haven't read the whole thread, but if Angel is back at Dark Horse, I wonder if Joss will be able to bring back any of the old writers from the Angel tv show, the way he did the same for Buffy? Or even other top-tier comic book writers like Brian K. Vaughan. Although on the IDW side, Brian Lynch has been really quite great.

However, the point I wanted to make is that if Joss doesn't have time to write Angel, I think he is capable of bringing real incredible talent that IDW would have difficulty attracting.

As for why would IDW give up the Angel license? I doubt it had anything to do with creative control and everything to do with running a business. Usually licenses are given out for a certain timeframe and it's possible that Dark Horse out bid IDW. Or it's possible that since Season 8 and After The Fall, that 20th Century Fox determined that the license was worth a lot more money, more than IDW was willing to pay, as they are a smaller company compared to Dark Horse. Whatever the reasons, if this is what has happened, I still imagine that it is some sort of business reason.
Angel moving to Dark Horse, wow! I think this is great news. I love that Buffy and Angel will be under the same house now. I can easily see their individual stories still being separate but this just makes it even more likely for more interconnecting stories. Very cool!
A lot of the money to be made on an Angel series (certainly nowhere near millions though--no way in hell is the license that lucrative when the book sells maybe 20,000 copies) is made on the basis of the perception that this is a Joss-Whedon approved, canon Angel.


Some, I'm sure, but I think you overestimate it. Most people just buy it based on the name "Angel."

As for sales figures, the book was selling 40k copies an issue for the bulk of After the Fall. At $4 a pop, that does put the series in the "millions of dollars" category.

I'm just speculating of course and maybe I'm 100% wrong, certainly wouldn't be the first time. But what isn't speculation on my part is the fact that IDW was blindsided by all of this, and that as much as Joss said in interviews that he intended to go easy with the Angel characters in the Dark Horse comics because a different publisher had the rights to them, he in fact did nothing of the kind and instead used Angel as a major, major piece of a sprawling story, and in the bargain, seemingly altered Angel's character in a lasting way, which would throw a giant monkey wrench into any future plans IDW, or their editors or writers, might have had for him.


But they don't have to follow Season 8, that's the thing. The whole thing could be written off with one silly "Remember that Angel dopple-ganger?" line of dialogue if it went against IDW's storylines. Or they could just ignore that storyline altogether.

Frankly, it's much more probable that the license was up for renewal and Dark Horse, being the bigger publisher, had more to pay for it.
Dark Shape, 40,000 x 4 = 160,000 per month. That does get you over a million per year, but not into millions.

But that's also overstating things. The retailers take half, I think. There are printing and shipping costs. Salaries and overhead. Their revenue might have been between one and two million per annum, but their profits are substantially less than that.

Also, they haven't been selling 40,000 for some time. They've been selling just under 18,000. That takes them to 72,000 per month, and that takes their revenue per year under a million, and presumably their profits even lower since the drop in sales would raise their average fixed costs.

They aren't making a fortune on this thing. Not close. Why do you think there's been the mad scramble to replace editors and writers? Or Lynch beating the bushes for people to pre-order lest the series get cancelled?
Matt_Fabb, I'm perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that the whole "IDW might be relinquishing the Angel license for Twilight-related reasons" may in fact be merely a tempest in my own personal teacup, and that when IDW makes an announcement it may be something along the lines of "Yeah, it was a fun license while it lasted but all things end and Dark Horse made a bid for the rights, thanks for working with us Joss!" In fact I think that no matter the reasons for IDW losing the license, the announcement may go something like that.

Darkshape, if I wrote for IDW I might ignore season 8 in something like the manner you just described, but I think there is enough crossover between the people who buy Buffy and Angel that the doppleganger/dream/Bobby Ewing in the shower explanation wouldn't cut it for them.

And the $4 bucks a pop for After the Fall--IDW doesn't see that. They sell the books to comic shops for a deep discount on that $4 and the comics shops then turn around and sell them for $4 a pop to us. And let's not forget that writers and artists need to be paid by IDW, and books cost money to print (they cost a lot of money to print actually), to distribute, and to advertise. I'm sure at some point the Angel books might top a million in pure profit for IDW if they last long enough, but I don't think they're a bigger golden goose as a license than something like GI Joe or Transformers necessarily. (I could be 100% wrong though.)
I was so excited with all the IDW announcements after SDCC. Now, I'm not sure what to do. I might leave this fandom.
Firstly, I have to say that this bit of news made me exceedingly happy. If indeed the Buffyverse is converging with AtS to move onto the Fray future verse than having Angel series under the same roof as the Buffy series is the only approach that makes it work. I do have the feeling same as Highlander that S9 is going to be the closure -and merging Angel characters back into Buffyverse by virtue of running the S9 and Angel concurrent series - and maybe eventually these becoming one series - is the only way to do it properly. Secondly I find the idea of Joss being somehow not being the best choice of to finish the stories of his own characters somewhat strange. As the creator he has the ultimate right and privilege to do it. Not to mention that what IDW was doing to his characters (and his verse ) lately was beyond OOC. Vampire limbs dusting, immortal genderless demons emitting pheromones, etc etc. Scott Allie is my hero - and has been for a long while.

[ edited by dorotea on 2010-08-19 05:25 ]
This whole thread has been hysterically (in so many senses of the word) perplexing and ridiculous. Really? This matters? I say, "MORE STORY!" don't much care who or where it comes from. The rest is noise.
Here, here, TamaraC.

I don't see that this is anything to get crazy worked up over, especially considering we know almost NOTHING at this point.
I say, "MORE STORY!" don't much care who or where it comes from.


So then you spend as much time on Abramsology too? There's certainly more story, heck, there's an infinite number of stories to be a fan of online (and if "more story" is all we care about, allow me to direct all readers to fanfic ad infinitum). It just strikes me as disingenuous to essentially say "I don't care who or where it comes from" when we're holding this discussion on a site called Whedonesque. ;-)

Of course people want more story. People also want good story. Quality > quantity. And the who is where the question of quality gets answered. It's much easier to narrow it down in the comics world because it's the writer, the artist and the colorist who are bringing you the story.
Emmie, Hi, I'm TamaraC. I despise fanfic with every fiber of my being. Think it is universally despicable and just plain wrong. All of it. Every time. No really. Hate. It. All. This is not new info for most whedonesquers.

Now that we understand each other, any story officially sanctioned by Joss or his delegates is just fine by me. I couldn't care less if it is Bangel, Spuffy, or whatever floats your boat (and yes, I see this entire argument as a not so very subtle shipping war). If Darkhorse has the official sanctioned Angel series then Yay! If IDW has it then Yay! If Joss (who is way too busy) is telling the story then I'm all for it. If it's Tim (who is also crazy busy with 2 TV shows) then yay! Lynch, Espenson, Vaughn. Whoever.

You see my point? I'm here for the ride. I don't bother getting upset with the petty silliness. If the story isn't up to my standards then I won't buy it. I doubt that will happen though. :) Nothing that comes in the future will at all affect my current experience. I'm a grown up that way.

I'll save my ire and diatribes for the next TV show that shouldn't be cancelled. The overwrought emotion in this thread is simply not worthy of the issue.
Think it is universally despicable and just plain wrong.


I'm glad Jane Espenson doesn't agree since she grew up writing fanfic. :) You know what's the bestest thing ever about fanfic? If you write it in script format, you get to call it a spec script which you shop around and maybe you'll get hired if you're any good at writing. Not that I'm trying to convince you of anything because you seem pretty staunchly in the hatehatehate column, so what would be the point? I'm just poking fun.

I couldn't care less if it is Bangel, Spuffy, or whatever floats your boat (and yes, I see this entire argument as a not so very subtle shipping war).


Uh, yeah really not. While shipping factors into it for some people (e.g. Riker was fairly vocal about the greater possibility of Angel and Buffy being under the same publishing tent, so to speak), the most vocal people on this subject don't fall down into easily defined shipper lines. I could give you a more detailed rundown of the regular Season 8/IDW commentators and how they identify. For example, Patxshand and Wyndam_ are staunch Wesley fans and ANGEL the series fans. Angeliclestat is an Angel fan primarily, and an anti-shipper. Sueworld and Maggie are primarily Spike fans. I'm a Buffy fan, a Spike fan, then a Spike and Buffy fan (the nuance of which I'd hope one can appreciate). Kingofcretins is a Xander fan, then a Bander fan, but mostly he's a LOGIC fan first and foremost. Hmmm, who else? Vampmogs is a core Scoobies fan, a Buffy fan, an Angel fan, a Faith fan, who also enjoys B/A but isn't diehard about it. I could go on, but I think it's pretty clear that all these individuals aren't coming into this discussion with their Shipper War flags flying.

You know, I hadn't realized I could boil down every individual fan's complex perspective by simply brushing them all with the label of "member of Shipper War faction, disregard as irrelevant. Dismiss. Dismiss. Dismiss." See, here I was thinking that people are more complicated than that. Maybe I've been giving everyone too much credit? Ah well. I guess I'm a grown up that way. I matured past stereotyping and broadbased assumptions a long time ago.

Mostly, I feel sympathy for the diehard Angel fans (both the character and the series) who were quite happy with the license staying with IDW. Pat for example has nothing to do with shipping (he'll take or leave a relationship merely based on how good a story it is and then move on), but I can tell he's very upset by this topic. So saying "this entire argument" is a shipping war... yeah, invalid. Just because there's shipper perspectives in a thread doesn't mean that the entire thing is about shipping. But again that requires one acknowledge that fans have more complex motivations and it doesn't jive well with the stereotyping mentality.

I'm actually kinda baffled by how you've described this as a not very subtle shipping war. How? Because while Riker is happy about BtVS and AtS both potentially being at Dark Horse and Riker's a B/A fan, I'm also happy about it and I'm a Spuffy fan. Maggie's happy about it and she's a Spike fan. Sueworld's unhappy about it and she's a Spike fan. So... huh? Kingofcretins is also happy about it and he's a Bander fan. Shouldn't King be threatened by the greater possibility of Angel crossover material that stands in the way of Bander? Maybe his Shipper War General has been giving him bad orders. It's the only way to explain such irrational alliances between opposing shipper factions. Or maybe we all fell down and hit our heads and that's why we're having trouble identifying the enemy camps and properly aiming to annihilate.

Man, we're really bad at this war thing. Really, Shippers. C'mon! We need to get better organized here. Chop chop, y'all! Everyone please meet in the War Room at 0900. I'll bring the muffins.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-19 07:16 ]
I've disliked IDW's Angel comics. To me, Franco Urru's artwork always seemed sloppy and incoherent, to the point where familiar characters were unrecognizable and the action was difficult to follow. The writers had a few good ideas here and there, but in my view the new characters were never fully realized (cat lady, angel-demon guy), the old characters seemed like square pegs forced into plot holes (Kate, Gwen, Groo), the dialogue was often stilted and clunky, and the issues were riddled with typos, as if they'd never passed through the hands of an editor. Nevertheless, I still bought and read all of them, out of devotion to the show. (I have trouble letting go of bad relationships.)

I realize that my tastes and expectations are different from those of many other people. But I see the move to Dark Horse as a good thing.
I'm glad Jane Espenson doesn't agree since she grew up writing fanfic. :)

His Purpleness doesn't agree, either. ;)

Joss Whedon: I love it. I absolutely love it. I wish I had grown up in the era of fan fiction, because I was living those shows and those movies that I loved and I would put on the score to Superman and just relive the movie over and over. I think it's kind of a glorious thing to be able to be carrying the torch. That’s why I made these shows. I didn't make them so that people would enjoy them and forget them; I made them so they would never be able to shake them.
The rest is noise.

The entire conversation is noise. This almost-200 comment thread (as of this writing) plus discussions elsewhere (IDW forums, SlayAlive, Buffy Forums, etc etc) are all based on a partial sentence. PARTIAL. As in incomplete. We have no context, no official statements, and nothing that can be considered concrete information. But magically, everyone has already chosen a side and has a very strong opinion.

"Appreciate the urge to smash, but that's not helping!"

Can I just ask the fandom to not strike up any more harshly worded conversations until we have more information? I've seen a lot of nastiness passed around, again based solely on partial sentences and very strong emotions. It's making me a very sad Jewish panda. :(
Yes, Zelikman, this whole thread is ridiculous and I laugh at the angst and energy over nothing. Seriously, people. This is nothing. There are wars and shit.
TamaraC,

If the story isn't up to my standards then I won't buy it.

Great. But what about all those fans who don’t consider any of IDW’s stories up to their standards? I’d love to read an Ats comic every month but I just can’t get through them because I find them to be so poor. Doesn’t it make total sense that I’d prefer to see the comic with DH if I have faith they can produce better stories? What’s so “petty” about that?

You act as if the comic will be exactly the same no matter which company produces it but that’s completely untrue. For a start, they hire different writers and artists not to mention that it’s far more likely we’ll get a canonical continuation of Ats under Darkhorse than we would ever again under IDW. And, yes, that matters to people like me who want to know what really “happens next...”

I don’t think it’s “petty” or silly that fans are making a big deal out of this. Those who like what IDW produce are worried what will happen to the franchise under a different creative team. Likewise, those who hate what IDW deliver are very happy to see it changing. It’s completely understandable and I think you’d have to be fairly ignorant to think it won’t make a difference either way.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-08-19 08:32 ]
"Yes, Zelikman, this whole thread is ridiculous and I laugh at the angst and energy over nothing. Seriously, people. This is nothing. There are wars and shit.
TamaraC | August 19, 08:11 CET"

This is the silliest thing on this thread.Yea Tamara there are wars going on...+floods+famine...and lots of other horrible things we all wish wrent going on.

But on a forum like this- we come to escape the horrors of the world in entertainment.So we are passionate about a fictional vampire and we are all getting worked up about this bit of news?Ya we are because it is important to us.It is something that means a lot to a lot of people.So ya we are gonna discuss it and get worked up.

If you want to get rid of all the 'silly things' that people get worked up about even though there is *war* in the world you may as well get rid of football(look at those fans that get worked up about when a player is moved from one club to another)...he'll just get rid of all sports.Cinema too- that's just silly isn't it.Let's just all concentrate on the horrors of the world cos to talk about something as silly as a fictional character is just silly.

Whatever.
Lasciate ogni speranza...

Yup. Definitely one of the more ridiculous and incomprehensible threads I've ever read on my site. Makes me wonder why I'm actually paying to host this shit. And if anyone wants to help me out with that, there's a Paypal button on the front page.
I'm with Emmie in that I find it frustrating that a very interesting discussion where people from all factions of fandom have expressed their opinions for and against the move is being dismissed as 'shipper talk' - especially since any kind of shipping has mostly been brought up only by anti-shippers. This discussion is not any more ridiculous than a thread discussing the mechanics of Serenity or speculation about Dollhouse storylines - we're fans on a fansite, discussing these things is what we do.

As for my opinions on the actual subject, while I loved Lynch's comics, I have been equally disappointed by both Season 8 and IDW's recent Angel storylines, but as companies go, I have issues with Dark Horse that go well beyond Buffy comics so I would have been happier with IDW keeping the Angel licence. And while I much preferred BtVS over AtS, I think that Angel as a character was much more interesting on his own show. Having Joss in the helm would make me feel slightly better, but I'm willing to bet his involvement with the comics will be minimal at best because of The Avengers.
Hmmm. A lot of people have had their say, and a lot of people have made good points. But ultimately, I think we really need to know more before we can make judgement calls. Like Zelikman said upthread a ways, this whole discussion is based on a sentence. I think things will become clearer as we get more news and I hope that things don't turn out as bad as some people are obviously worried about. I'm sure it will all turn out alright.

For my part, I think I'm just going to wait on more news to see how things go.
Caroline - with all due respect -I can think of many more ridiculous and incomprehensible threads on this site.And I didn't see any of those being mocked.

The fact that *so* many people are passionate about it should indicate that it is not something to be dismissed.

[ edited by angeliclestat on 2010-08-19 09:46 ]
angeliclestat, cool it.
I get the need to react to this news, hence why I 'reacted' myself with the post further up, but I would probably have to agree that it has generated an awful lot of passionate argument about a topic we actually know very little about.

I certainly don't agree with what TamaraC suggested about this being a shipper debate, however. I'm a Spike fan, first and foremost, and if I prefer any Buffy related relationship at all (which I don't, particularly) it's probably going to be Spuffy for the simple fact that it gives Spike more airtime (pagetime... whatever...) and therefore the possibility of Buffy and Angel being brought back together would not work in my favour, it would seem. Even so, I'm all for the Angel move back to Dark Horse. Who Buffy ends up in bed with as a result of the move never really crossed my mind. I just want to see a good story.

Besides, I prefer Spike with Faith anyway! (Kidding... not really... yeah, kidding... kinda...).

Anyway, I guess that what I'm saying is that I do think we need to wait a little while and see what this actually all means for the story before we freak out. Have an opinion, by all means, but I don't see the point in all the heated discussion going on, considering it's based, for the most part, on assumption and guess work. You can get all pissy and angry if and when Dark Horse actually does ruin the Angel characters for you! ;)
Personally, I'm just glad both titles will be under the same roof if only because they won't have to tip-toe around crossovers if they really want. Will hopefully make things easier on whoever is involved with Season 9 and on.
I suppose in a strange way that it's a good thing that Dark Horse and IDW haven't immediately reacted to it by tweeting, blogging etc.* Whilst the online Buffyverse comic book fandom is wondering what's up, I'd like to think that there's a calm measured response being drafted via the red phone.

*Cause that worked so well the last time.
Yeah, you're probably right, Simon. If this truly was the disaster in the making for IDW, Dark Horse or the Buffyverse in general that many are predicting then it's likely that we would have heard something from someone with actual factual-like information by now. The silence suggests that this isn't news to anyone but us and hopefully that means that everyone involved is okay with what has gone on behind the scenes.

Time will tell, I guess.
I actually wonder how long it HAS been in the works. Way back in the day of Season 8, Joss himself stated that Angel and Spike would be used only 'sparingly' as they belonged to another publisher, and yet we now know that the Twilight arc was planned from near the beginning. Hence, not exactly with the transparency. Maybe this too was known from way back and perhaps was even one of the factors in having direct Joss involvement in ATF. Just pure speculation, of course, but this thread has kinda trended that way.
I think once Joss decided he was going to use Angel as Twilight in Season 8, he knew there'd have to be a continuation of 'Angel', and cue 'After the Fall'. No way he could just have Angel reappear and not address how he got out of 'Not Fade Away's alleyway.
I suppose in a strange way that it's a good thing that Dark Horse and IDW haven't immediately reacted to it by tweeting, blogging etc.* Whilst the online Buffyverse comic book fandom is wondering what's up, I'd like to think that there's a calm measured response being drafted via the red phone.

But why wasn't it drafted already? The lag time between a comic going to press and being released isn't short there's been plenty of time for both sides to have a formal announcement ready to go, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened. Instead Scott Allie has thrown a boulder into a pond and people have got wound up in part because they don't actually know what's going to happen and are angsting about all possible connotations. This isn't an unintended leak it was an announcement and that neither side is ready with more details is pretty unimpressive IMO.
I agree with helcat - either their PR-sense is abysmal or they (one or both parties) are intentionally creating 'buzz'.
To be honest, IDW are probably working out the deets. Anything involving licensing involves multiple companies, multiple people, lawyers etc. Just the nature of the biz.

At a guess, Dark Horse has probably paid more for the licensing than IDW and scooped the license. It's almost like there's IDW and Dark Horse fans having a little brand war here, but ultimately all that matters is the story. The comic story. Not the business story.

[ edited by gossi on 2010-08-19 11:57 ]
Tell you what though, the business story has been fascinating. It kicked off with Twilightgate and every couple of months there's some new drama. It makes the Buffyverse fan in me uneasy, but I can't deny it's made for a pretty interesting year.
True enough, Matt7325. As much as I hate to see all the fandom division going on, in some ways the various comic related controversies have made for some interesting topics of conversation, if nothing else. I could have done without some of the fanboyesque sniping I've seen around here on occasion but for the most part it has been a fun ride.

Can't wait to see what Buffy Season 9 will bring!

"It's almost like there's IDW and Dark Horse fans having a little brand war here, but ultimately all that matters is the story."

Also true, gossi! Comic book brand wars are, at the end of the day, pretty much pointless as it only ever comes down to personal opinion. The quality of the story should always come first.

Except in regard to Marvel vs DC, obviously! Everyone knows that Marvel is sooooo much better! ;)
The 'deets' should have been sorted before Scott Allie announced that the comic was going to Dark Horse, you don't go around announcing such stuff when the details are still up for grabs, or at least not in any business I've come across.
Yeah, you do, if you want to generate buzz.
Buzz would have been announcing it at Comic-Con.
On the flipside, helcat, you could also argue that it's the fans that shouldn't be stressing quite so much until they know what the 'deets' actually are.

Again, not saying that you shouldn't have an opinion on the eventual outcome but it seems like you want to attack someone for the sake of an attack. We don't get to decide how this should have been announced and we don't need to be worrying about the fact that it has been done in the fashion that it has. Worry about the product and the reality of the sitution when you eventually see it. This is nothing more than a snippet of information about something that is in the pipeline. Does it really matter how we got it, when we got it or who gave it? I don't think so.
Well you do if you want to generate buzz and don't care if it turns out you're wrong - the devils in the details and they can kill plenty of plans that looked like done deals before they got into them. If this isn't already done and dusted then I think Scott Allie has been very stupid in making this statement now and if he wanted buzz should have been far more oblique in his comment.
Again, not saying that you shouldn't have an opinion on the eventual outcome but it seems like you want to attack someone for the sake of an attack.
Really? I don't actually care much for the outcome whichever way it goes as I can't abide either Season 8 or the IDW comics. I just think this way of riling up the fandom is deeply unimpressive. This comes with the caveat that it may all be IDW's fault for not being ready with a statement, I have no way of knowing why there's been no further clarification on Scott's piece in the comic.
"I don't actually care much for the outcome whichever way it goes as I can't abide either Season 8 or the IDW comics. I just think this way of riling up the fandom is deeply unimpressive."

Fair enough. Although I'd still have to say that if this actually has riled up the fandom at all then it's more the fault of the fandom than the announcement. We could have decided to wait for more information before assuming the worst, as a few seem to have done, but that hasn't been the case.

Trying to get this thread back onto a more positive note, anyone else have any other dream creative team wishes for after Angel moves back to Dark Horse? I mentioned further up-thread about how I'd like to see Lynch and Urru back together on the new series. Joss aside, I can't imagine a better writer for Angel, and I've always been a big supporter of Urru's work.

Also, a quick question for those maybe more in the know than I am but what are the chances of characters like Laura, Beta George and Eddie Hope making the leap to Dark Horse. Do they belong to IDW or are they now part of the Buffyverse proper?
To be fair, it's only been - what, 15 hours since the news broke? If that? I think we're all in agreeance that it'd be nice to hear some more from Scott or Chris about it, but it's not like they've left us in the dark for weeks on end or anything. I'd be very surprised if we make it to the end of the weekend without hearing something more substantial.

@Highlander - I couldn't say for sure but I would guess that IDW-originated characters such as George would be allowed to show up in Dark Horse's Angel comic, as the rights to the whole Angelverse are held by Fox, not IDW. I imagine that'd include original comic characters. If I'm right I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to assume that George would be allowed to show up in Season 9, too.
As for my opinions on the actual subject, while I loved Lynch's comics, I have been equally disappointed by both Season 8 and IDW's recent Angel storylines, but as companies go, I have issues with Dark Horse that go well beyond Buffy comics so I would have been happier with IDW keeping the Angel licence. And while I much preferred BtVS over AtS, I think that Angel as a character was much more interesting on his own show. Having Joss in the helm would make me feel slightly better, but I'm willing to bet his involvement with the comics will be minimal at best because of The Avengers.

Get out of my brain. :)
I don't know who has really dismissed this as a shipper-driven issue, this debate. I'm usually driving that bus. I have seen nerdrage, and this isn't really quite there, IMO. I think the shipper-driven elements of this are easily the least valid arguments on either side, though. IDW and Dark Horse = WB and CW.

For two seasons of "Angel", it was on the same TV network as "Buffy", but he managed, somehow, despite that proximity, to not be all about Buffy. It follows, from what I can tell, that two standalone titles under Dark Horse would prevent him from being "all about Buffy". If he was not going to *have* a title, if he was just going to be a character in the "Buffy" title, then, yes -- all about Buffy would be the pattern. But he obviously would have his own title, his own title would in fact be the only reason to get the license anyway, so... not really a valid concern.
You know, I'd have preferred it myself if this had come out as a press release with details instead of a simple one-line announcement.

But seriously?

Dark Horse has some exciting news about their upcoming Buffyverse comics, which they share with their readers in the 'News' section of their current Buffyverse comic. I'm really not seeing why that was such a terrible way to do it...

And presumably they've known about this for at least a month, since that's how long it takes for the comic to be printed and distributed. So unless FOX Licencing told Dark Horse they'd got the 'Angel' franchise from 2011 but forgot to tell IDW they'd lost it (if that's really what's happened) I don't have much sympathy for IDW not having a statement on this already primed and ready to go. I *can*, however, imagine IDW not really wanting to take the lead in announcing the bad news, and letting Dark Horse take the flak instead.
"I'm really not seeing why that was such a terrible way to do it...!"

Becuase they should have given IDW enough time to announce the changes at the same time. By pipping them to the post here It comes across to me as another 'Twilight' incident and smacks of being a tad unprofessional.

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-08-19 14:15 ]
Hint taken, Caroline (If you can have a large rubber troll-hammer of a hint. *g*)

I don't see the debate as ridiculous, simply because so many people feel so passionately about it. Which says something about the shows and the fans. (Where are the canon comics of Charmed or FRIENDS? Who still cares about other 90s/early 2000s shows?) But I do think it's a little unfortunate to become so anxious over something which is so far totally lacking in detail.

TamaraC, I'm really hoping I despise fanfic with every fiber of my being. Think it is universally despicable and just plain wrong. All of it. Every time. is meant in the American sense of "despise" meaning "dislike a lot". If it doesn't float your boat, that's fine. I may feel it's your loss, but that's just me and the world keeps on turning. But I'd be sad if it was genuine scorn and contempt that you felt for something which gives so much pleasure to so many people, actively encouraged by Joss at that. I'm sure we can agree tastes differ without actual contempt, right?
I don't have much sympathy for IDW not having a statement on this already primed and ready to go

I don't either if they were aware that it could be announced at any moment then they should have been prepared, if they believed it was going to be announced at a later date then its a different matter.
Becuase they should have given IDW enough time to announce the changes at the same time. By pipping them to the post here It comes across to me as another 'Twilight' incident and smacks of being a tad unprofessional.

Because this is the norm in... which area of business? Any business, really, but the entertainment business? I don't really remember this courteous ebb and flow with, say, the Norton/Avengers story, or Joss being off Wonder Woman, etc. A story breaks, press goes for reaction or confirmation, and the other side confirms. That's always how this works. Joint, or concurrent, press releases from Dark Horse and IDW would have been very weird.

I will say, though... I like Scott Allie, seems like an affable guy, broader fan access than we could have ever really hoped. That kind of praise applies to a lot of the pros involved in the "Buffy" and "Angel" books, at least by reputation. But if there were ever a bunch of people who were born without the public relations gene (if its genetic, and not a lifestyle choice?), it's the people who run these companies and these titles. Dark Horse should have actually done something sort of buzz-worthy to announce this -- full page ad in its comics, etc. So that was one mistake. But the next is that apparently nobody at either publisher thinks it would be a good idea to confirm it? Really? Would that have sounded sensible if we were talking about TV or movies? What's it take, a phone call to 20th asking *them* who is licensed?
I'm another one who came into Angel first, then Buffy...most of my favorites are also ANgel characters, except for Giles.

I'll wait and see how it goes before I give judgement, anyway.
Gill-I believe Zenescope is putting out a Charmed comic.
No one knows anything, as usual, and many comics companies are poorly run and [insert boilerplate about creative/business conflicts in editorial staff], as usual, so what is there to talk about? Other than the apparently widespread fear that our precious fantasy world will be taken away. About which: oh for god's sake, you'll survive.

A decent amount of money is being made off the people in this thread by two companies of inconsistent/questionable taste and seriousness. We're permitted to take a break and do, y'know, something else.
Where are the canon comics of Charmed or FRIENDS? Who still cares about other 90s/early 2000s shows?

Menomegirl is right. They're going to release comics for Charmed.
Who still cares about other 90s/early 2000s shows?

I do. I re-watch episodes of Charmed and Xena: Warrior Princess just as often as I do Angel and Buffy.
If this truly was the disaster in the making for IDW, Dark Horse or the Buffyverse in general that many are predicting then it's likely that we would have heard something from someone with actual factual-like information by now. The silence suggests that this isn't news to anyone but us and hopefully that means that everyone involved is okay with what has gone on behind the scenes.


On the contrary, the silence speaks to me of not knowing what to say. Especially over at IDW where it appears they're drafting a statement to this news. If there was no change in the works, then why wouldn't Ryall simply say they'll continue publishing their own Angel title?

The fact that this news requires a careful meeting behind closed doors... well, the fact that it even takes time to draft a response at all spells confusion to me. If there was no confusion, the response would be "yes, we are still publishing an ANGEL title. Hope you enjoy the next issue!"

This petty, ridiculous, overwrought "rumor" has got legs for a reason. I've been waiting for the news that the Angel title would be returning to Dark Horse ever since it was announced the license was up for bid for 2011. Reading Scott Allie talking about an Angel series launching at Dark Horse to coincide with Season 9 didn't surprise me. Especially after Dark Horse's very public airing of apologies to Whedon for passing on the licensing rights in the first place (if I recall correctly, Whedon came back with comics story ideas and was surprised to discover Angel was no longer at DH. Cue Allie's frowny face).

My impression is that Whedon likes all his comics toys at Dark Horse (Buffy, Dollhouse, Firefly) and that Dark Horse would work to bring back the Angel title as soon as humanly possible. So far, it appears that time is now.

The details of this are still up in the air, but I think it's clear Dark Horse is standing by the statement that they're publishing an Angel series in 2011. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that only possible if they hold the Angel license? Folks in this thread might be making leaps of logic, but that's because there's leaps of logic to make.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-19 15:38 ]
Where was it announced about the license being up for bidding in 2011. One of Allie's Q & As?
Simon- point taken. But still, the small comment made in the new issue indicates that they know what is up and rather than let us know what it is, are keeping it hidden- that generates buzz whether they wanted it or not. And yes, it could be that since the issue went to press a while ago they may have had to hold off on the release, but they also had to know what would happen when they made that comment. Right now, the smart thing to do is to get information out to the fandom.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2010-08-19 15:40 ]
"Smart thing" and "generate buzz" are sometimes at odds.
Gill, I may have used a bit of hyperbole to get across my point about fanfic. I've been known to do that from time to time. :) I know lots of people enjoy writing and reading fanfic, but I have an immediate almost physical negative reaction to it. Have never liked any that I've read. Think people should be creating their own playground, should accept the story from the real writer, etc etc. Doesn't much matter though (and I don't really care to debate the merits of it all) since I don't rule the world.

Yet.
The fact that IDW is taking awhile to respond is a bit strange. A competing company has essentially teased the idea that IDW no longer has the license to publish Angel comics: that demands an immediate reponse. If IDW still have the license, or if they were outbid for it and no longer have it, either way a business-like standard press release is all that's really required, with maybe a followup letter either thanking the fans for their support (if they lost the license) or reassuring them that great things are on the way (if they kept it.) But IDW's hesitation here feels like some aspect of this situation may have taken them off-guard. Maybe they lost the license but that doesn't take effect until sometime in 2011, so until then they want to revamp their Angel line and go out with a bang, hence waiting until they have their creative ducks (and teams) in a row to announce some new direction for the line.
The licensing question came up during one of the long discussions about canon, Season 8 and IDW. Talk about the license being up for bid again has been making the rounds for almost a year now. I think it might actually stem from the original license lasting five years, but that's before my time so I don't have a source (maybe someone else does?).

The one thing that's clear to me is that Dark Horse has said they legally cannot publish an Angel title without the Angel license. They've said that repeatedly. Angel can appear in Season 8 because he's covered by the Buffy license as his character originated there, but that an Angel title is out of bounds. So if Dark Horse says they're publishing an Angel title in 2011, then the question becomes is Dark Horse going rogue (which fits rather nicely with their name) or are they abiding by the letter of the law? Logic suggests it's the latter.

I don't know what that means for IDW (which is why more information is necessary), but it seems clear Dark Horse believes they'll be publishing an Angel title which requires an Angel license. And that's where the legitimate conflict of this topic arises. How can Dark Horse and IDW both hold the license?

Like I said, leaps of logic have been made, but they're still based on logic and a factual statement from an official DH representative. Clearly the whole story hasn't been revealed, but the tension and uncertainty of the situation and the upset reaction its spawned isn't all based on smoke and mirrors.
It seems clear that if IDW have lost the licence that won't kick in until 2011 or else IDW wouldn't be continuing to trail their upcoming books. Now they may well have concerns as to how the knowledge that the books go to Dark Horse at some point next year might put people off continuing to invest in this era of Angel comics. However, this can't be news to IDW so I'm again left wondering why they hadn't figured out how to deal with it publicly yet unless they had good reason to believe no announcement could be made yet.
"On the contrary, the silence speaks to me of not knowing what to say. Especially over at IDW where it appears they're drafting a statement to this news. If there was no change in the works, then why wouldn't Ryall simply say they'll continue publishing their own Angel title?"

See, I'm not getting that vibe at all, Emmie. Or, more accurately, I'm not getting vibes of any kind from this. Good or bad. It could be that you are exactly right and IDW are at a loss with how to deal with this announcement. On the other hand, it could also be that they simply decided to wait for Dark Horse to break the news and they'll make their own announcement when they are ready. It seems most likely to me that it was always going to be the company that had the "good news" to give that would do so first.

I really can't believe that either Dark Horse or IDW would be able to make this sort of announcement in any way, shape or form without all parties being aware of what was happening ahead of time (unlike the 'Joss using Angel as Twilight' situation, this deal would need to have been firmly hammered out) and so it follows that IDW could very easily have released this news first, or soon after, had they wished. Releasing news about a franchise you are about to lose, however? Not so much incentive there, I wouldn't think.

Honestly, if I'm getting any vibe from this at all it's one of slight indifference from IDW. If that is the case then I'd say that it is totally understandable, considering what is about to happen. Especially if they are now only able to keep the Angel characters in some kind of agreed holding pattern, in order to set up events for the Dark Horse takeover.

"The details of this are still up in the air, but I think it's clear Dark Horse is standing by the statement that they're publishing an Angel series in 2011. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that only possible if they hold the Angel license? Folks in this thread might be making leaps of logic, but that's because there's leaps of logic to make."

Oh, don't misunderstand my position in this. I absolutely agree that Dark Horse have made it very clear that they have taken the licence for Angel back. I'm not disputing that at all. My argument is just with those that have immediately assumed this to be a bad thing. The details I'm waiting for are more concerning what is going to happen storywise than anything on the legal side of things. Don't much care about the behind the scenes small print as long as we get a good story out of it all.
I don't get why so many people think it's okay to be utterly dismissive about this.

To me (my opinion, which, yes, matters in that it's mine), this is the worst news I've ever seen on the site. Worse than the cancellation of Dollhouse, worse than Joss not doing Wonder Woman, worse than how Ripper and Goners and so many other projects that were announced aren't happening, worse than Cabin being in limbo. Yes.

IDW's Angel was/is my favorite thing to come out of the Whedonverse after BUFFY and ANGEL the actual shows. I care about the stories that were told and the people that told them. Dark Horse... not nearly at much. I can only hope that Dark Horse respects the story that has happened thus far, but when you blindside IDW so many times, making such a huge announcement in the back of a letter column, I think I might be hoping for too much. But yet, I still hope. I wouldn't expect them to continue any IDW plots, but at least don't contradict.

I really, really can't wait to see Ryall's answer to all of this.

[ edited by patxshand on 2010-08-19 16:28 ]
Pat, I agree. This news is equivalent to rumblings that BUFFY wasn't being picked up by the WB and was moving to UPN. Or the entire year of angst when ANGEL was on the chopping block at the WB and all of fandom tried to save it from cancellation.

Maybe it's being dismissed because it's the comics? Who knows?

This is big news for fandom who cares about the comics. I really don't understand why we can speculate about Joss Whedon directing The Avengers in dozens of threads for weeks on end before it's officially confirmed, but speculating about an in-house press release that will affect a publishing company shift in who holds the Angel comics title is out of bounds.

Is speculation and flailing only apropos when it's about the biggest comics movie ever told? I care more about the BUFFY and ANGEL comics than I do The Avengers. So this is what gets my speculation engine revving.
I'm going to have to agree with you Patxshand. I'm feeling at odds with this whole thing. It's going to be nice to have Whedon back at the helm working so closely with Angel so things bounce evenly tween the two titles. But ... IDW's handling of the series was not bad. I liked their writers and artists. Fingers crossed that Lynch and Urru will be allowed to have contact with the work.

It's kind of like an awkward divorce and the readers are caught in the middle. Some like mom more than, some like dad more than mom and others still like both. I had really hoped the two companies would put aside certain issues, possibly even some legal ones, and work closely with each other for the reader's enjoyment. But I can see that it's not going to happen.

I know that Willingham stated that he was even shocked to find out that Twilight was Angel because he had made some plans for him in his story arc he was writing. Sure I thought he was kind of throwing a hissy fit about it but I really hope that they do work with the existing story so there are as few contradictions as possible. You know, out of respect.

Guess it's gonna be a wait and see.
I don't get why so many people think it's okay to be utterly dismissive about this.


Judging by what I see on LJ, most of the diehards don't seem to care about the comics anymore. And if they do write about them, it seems to be more in anger than anything else. If you lose the support of the most dedicated fans then that mindset filters down to the grass roots, and you're going to get more and more people not particularly caring about where the title ends up. Dunno what you would have to do to reverse that trend.
I don't know. Emmie, anceliclestat, and Wyn are the biggest, most passionate fans I know outside of some of the folks who work on the Angel comics, and they call care quite a lot. I just don't think it's very nice for people to be so flippant, not about the actual announcement, but the opinions of other fans. Different things matter to different people, and this matters quite a bit to some. So, so much to me.
I think Simon's point is right on; I think the comic is losing readers and interest so this move, at this time, is interesting. (Discolsure- I am a reader who has lost interest, so do account for my bias here). My own take on why no comment so far is that I would assume both companies have worked out, via contract, who says what when. IDW is not commenting yet, because, I am guessing, they legally can't.

However it is, right now, this is not good, not for the comic and not for the fandom. Information is good; silence is not. Silence allows speculation to grow, and if I were the prinipals here, reading all our comments and knowing this is the cream of my fanbase, I would act and act immediately. But that's me.
"This is big news for fandom who cares about the comics."

And that would certainly include me. Very much so. As I think I made clear in the first post I made in this thread. I enjoy the comics a great deal and in no way do I consider the part of the Buffyverse story that they tell to be less important than what we saw on television.

I really don't think it's being dismissive or flippant to suggest keeping an open mind, however. I'm not saying for a moment that we shouldn't be speculating. All I'm saying is that until we know something more concrete then what is the point of assuming that this is a bad thing? Speculate away, by all means! We'd be a damn poor fandom if that didn't happen. Just try and do so with a little bit of optimism that this might actually work out for the best.

It's not as if Dark Horse have announced that Rob Liefeld will be the new regular artist, right? ;)
I agree that simply dropping this grenade of information wasn't a smart or well executed plan. I wonder if it was all a timing issue with the comic and when an official announcement was supposed to be made. I mentioned somewhere else, but for all we know, there's a memo on someone's desk asking them to remove that sentence from the letter column, as an official announcement wasn't ready yet.

What a big ol' Slurpee Demon sized mess.
I feel like I should clarify my previous statement.

I am not saying that speculative discussion is inherently bad or good. I am saying that the incredibly divisive response to this one tiny statement is not doing an already-stretched fandom any good. Twilightgate is kind of what I imagine Hell to be like, at times, and this response has slipped through many different phases, including the old classic "Shipper Wars RAWRERAWARAWRA" and the always-fun "Buffy series or Angel series - WHO ARE YOU MOST FAITHFUL TO JOSS AND FANS RAWRAWRWARWERA". So it's kind of like Purgatory?

I just feel like we all need to take a deep breath and relax for a second. Information will come. In the meantime, this doesn't have to get personal. We're all friends here, right? :) <3

As for me, my heart is for whatever works best for the story and characters. I don't necessarily know if bringing Angel back to Dark Horse is the right move for that to happen. IDW has delivered many good mini-series (Only Human, Barbary Coast, the upcoming Illyria) placed next to a violently fluctuating (in terms of quality) main title, which was already rocked once by the reveal of Twilight. The use of Angel as Twilight, of course, has been the cause of much debate since the accidental spoiler in January, with many decrying Angel's actions as being completely out-of-character, and that being at IDW has made canon discussions between the two series... complicated.

Is it a good move? I don't know. I'll probably have actual thoughts when the deets hit the streets. Until then, I love Buffy, I love Angel, and I will accept any decision that comes down from on high.

And now I'm going to get off this website and go do something else. Right now. Seriously. Signing off now. OK bye.
I just don't think it's very nice for people to be so flippant, not about the actual announcement, but the opinions of other fans. Different things matter to different people, and this matters quite a bit to some. So, so much to me.


Absolutely, Pat. For my own interests, I've been unhappy with how IDW's comics have gone on since Whedon's name was removed and his involvement diminished seemingly to none post-After the Fall, plus I've always been bothered by the Buffyverse being divided between two rival companies, so I'm hopeful for a reunion of the 'verse. But I absolutely understand how this would be upsetting to folks who are very happy with IDW's work. You and Wyn especially.

People who don't care about the comics sometimes don't really consider how what they say in bashing the comics can be upsetting to comics fans. In discussion with one fan, someone once told me they hoped Buffy died in Season 8 so the story couldn't go on. As someone who loves Buffy's character to an intense degree and who thinks Season 8 is canon (with some quibbles and concrit attached), being told that was something to hope for would be like someone laughing at me for crying at the end of The Gift. It felt like a slap in the face and I imagine you all too well understand that feeling right now.
Just in case anybody missed it - Scott (Allie) tweeted about talking with IDW and Lynch a week ago: "Good talk with @chris_ryall @brianlynch & @tiredfairy Freewheelin' brainstormin' can be good times. 6:42 AM Aug 13th via web"

The fact everybody is silent about the moment should probably speak volumes.

[ edited by gossi on 2010-08-19 18:58 ]
Okay, question directed towards Pat but open to any who are (for now, at least) against this happening.

Let's say that tomorrow we find out that your ultimate creative team has already been signed up for the new Dark Horse series. A writer and artist pairing that is so exceptional that it makes the original Claremont/Byrne run on X-Men seem second rate. Would that be enough to change your mind?

I ask because right now, at this moment in time, all we know is that it is happening. Nothing more than that. I have really enjoyed the IDW stuff too but at the same time I have no reason to believe that Dark Horse won't provide an equally brilliant series for us. I'm just wondering if your distress is coming from your uncertainty concerning what Dark Horse will do with the characters and the series overall or just the fact that the move is happening in the first place.
Volumes that this announcement has been made in a poor way almost as if their primary intent was to upset a part of fandom with seemingly no concern? I'm really not seeing a positive spin on that. Also just to note that Brian Lynch hasn't been silent, he's stated he knows nothing about this development so it seems unlikely those brainstorming sessions were about this. At the time I was under the impression they related to the need to get the Spike story to line up with season 8.
Pat, lots of people like the IDW books, I understand that. But I don't think the Buffyverse canon will be any worse off for having Joss throw James, Dez, et al aside than it was for having thrown out the Immortal as Buffy's boyfriend. And I certainly think such a move would be no more disrespect to fans of that work than Season 8 itself is to fans of "Queen of the Slayers".

If what Dark Horse might do turns out to suck, that's when it's time to think about throwing in the towel. But that's about what they would do, not what they'd keep -- there is no ethical or creative obligation to canonize the IDW books, IMO.

Allie, Ryall -- time to settle this question. The only reason not to go ahead and explain this is if there is going to be a lawsuit. But if that's the case, say that then.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-19 19:45 ]
I'd agree with helcat about how the tweet about brainstorming prolly wasn't about this.

But in response to Highlander I'm slightly worried that, yes, Dark Horse might not treat the existing story lines with respect. I'd rather not see things get retconned (I'm really talking more about the things Lynch has done than anyone else, I love Beta George). At the same time I think it will be good to have it all in one house so every thing jibes, but I'm not sure which house I like the most. Thus my worry and stress. Frowny the face.
Well, Highlander, my own problem with this happening has nothing to do with the venue (Dark Horse), but rather with the fact that I find the Buffy season 8 storyline to be ridiculously bad, an embarrassing and implausible stumble by a great creator, and profoundly damaging to the already tarnished Buffy legacy. At least the Angel cast was separated from the debacle over at IDW, but now it seems the entire Buffyverse is about to be dragged into this bizarre parody of a fanfic story. If IDW lost the Angel license to BOOM! or some other comics publisher that isn't Dark Horse, it wouldn't matter nearly so much to me. But Dark Horse is where Twilight is, and Twilight is the stupidest thing since Vanilla Ice.
It's going to be nice to have Whedon back at the helm working so closely with Angel so things bounce evenly tween the two titles.

I'm not sure how much Joss will actually be involved in either the new series or the eventual BtVS Season 9. He's going to have his hands full over the next few years.

I for one will mourn the passing of the IDW series (which, in my opinion has been the better of the two series), but I hope that Willingham and co. are given enough time and grace to tie things up in any way they want.

OK, so it may not be canon, but it's been a damn good ride.
Hellmouthguy, does that mean you're happy with most of what IDW has done with the Angel license (especially in the main book) ? I can't recall seeing your comments in the Angel issue threads all that often, if at all recently. I know you've said you read Buffy in the store, but do you still follow Angel as well ?

Not to flame the fanboy publisher war or anything (and I know both sales numbers and number of commenters on Whedonesque does not = story quality, that being kinda subjective and all), but on this site at least, the Buffy comics appear to be more widely read than the Angel comics. I dunno if simply less people started picking up Angel to begin with, or if there was a steeper drop-off in readership with members of this site. That would appear to speak to a larger amount of dissatisfaction with the Angel continuation overall than Buffy's.
Kris, I could never get past Urru's murky art (though I'm not sure how much of that is ink and coloring.) However, I'm also not a fan of Jeanty's pre-adolescent/cutesy renditions of the characters either. What Jeanty has going for him is that his style is clear and readable, if unsatisfying. (Also the gorgeous covers by Chen don't hurt the Buffy books either.) With Urru's stuff, I often couldn't tell what was happening in a panel, so I dropped it. The addition of outside characters like the psychic fish turned me off as well; with all the really ill conceived superhero-y weirdness in the comics--Buffy is a flying space goddess at Dark Horse, Angel has been banished to a hell dimension and rides dragons at IDW--I didn't want to have to start dealing with non Buffyverse characters on top of it. For all I know the fish (Betta George?) and the other new characters might be awesome. I just didn't want to have to make the commitment.

At least the Guild comics rock.
This is a Joss site, Joss is actively involved in the Buffy comic, it'd be amazing if that didn't ensure that at this site at least Buffy comics didn't get the most attention. The Angel comics have never sold as well as the Buffy comic so there's a smaller pool of people following the Angel comics than the Buffy comics. I've not looked at the rate of decline though so don't know if it's similar for the two.
Yeah, the fan base seems a bit lopsidded. And between Twilightgate and Willingham's writting I think it's safe to say the numbers on either side have def dwindled.
A quick look and it seems that both titles have lost >50% of their sales since they launched.
Interesting, helcat. How about relative to each other, though?

Personally, I have been displeased with both the Angel and the Buffy comics. I continue to buy both of them however, and read and think about them. I like to think that I am still giving both a chance. Overall, I would say that the Buffy comics have suffered from a few very specific problems (lack of effective characterization, scattered plot, etc.) while the Angel comics since ATF have simply been unappealing to me. Although I want to make it clear that I REALLY enjoyed After the Fall and feel like it was better written than most of Buffy S8 has been. However, I also want to recognize that I read both comics only once per issue, and so my intake of them has been scattered, very possibly giving me a significant bias that could be potentially rectified by a mega-reread.

However, overall (excluding ATF, which, as I said earlier, was amazing) I have liked BS8 much more than the IDW Angel comics. For the simple and unquantifiable reason that the Buffy comic FEELS more like Buffy than Angel FEELS like Angel to me. I wish I could tell you why, but I really can't. And this is definitely a matter of opinion.

So in the middle of all of this, the only thing I am concerned about is the story. I feel scared that the real things that will suffer as a result of these changes are the characters and, as a result, the readers. So I hope that by the end of this, the characters that I have come to know and love are untouched. Not to say unchanged, because character development is awesome, but remain true to themselves as I know them.

And it would make me sad to see the Angel comics retconned, even though I am displeased with them. Because I hate unnecessary retcons. I was displeased with A LOT of Season 4 of Angel. And yet just because I feel that it was a poorly written and unclear piece of television, it doesn't mean that it was not an important part of our character's lives. I would say that Angel is a completely different person at the beginning of S5 than he was at the end of S3. And I LOVE S5 Angel. So I really hope this doesn't lead to a massive retcon, robbing our character's of chunks of their lives simply for convenience. Especially for those people who enjoyed those stories, although I do not count myself among them.
With the added note that IDW has put out other Angel-related titles other than the main on-going as well.
Hellmouthguy, you didn't like the fish?! I LOVED the fish! I want a stuffed plushie of the fish!

I was having a think about the whole Buffy comics on the way home from work. For me, the reason that Buffy (the TV series) was so emotionally satisfying was because it dealt with the life a girl (and then a woman) in a real place. There was school, there was college, there was work, there was death, love and repetitive tasks.

Moving the series into a comic book was always going to tricky. I mean, in my mind there was always going to be a story to tell as to how we got from Buffy to Fray in mythic terms, but what happened when Joss and Darkhouse got together was that Buffy became (for me) all about the medium and it's possibilities. Now, I suppose that's fair enough, much like the medium of TV affected storylines with people leaving or ratings/studio involvement, the comic medium was always going to influence the story told.

However, I think the balance is a little off, for me. I struggle to identify so emotionally with a Buffy in charge of thousands who lives in a castle. The characters have become more characters if you see what I'm getting at, rather than possible mes. Much like the medium itself really, I can't see them moving or talking, I feel like they are there, but not quite so in reach (which is a frustration in and of itself).

I actually thought that IDWs After the Fall actually sat better in terms of universe of Angel than Buffy season 8 did in relation to the TV series. It wasn't so much of a leap, I thought they had all the characters' voices pretty much spot on and I found it an easier read. However, once that run was over the voices were lost, just my opinion mind, and the artwork also was stilted.

I'm still reading both, I've been so invested with this verse for so many years I can't not get excited (still) just thinking about it. Regarding the news in the thread, reading Gossi's comment of Scott's tweet he used the word “brainstorm”, now that sounds more like a collaboration to me. Personally, I don't mind which publisher publishes what I'm just happy to have more stories. Although, I do hope that the people who have been working on IDWs Angel will not be without work if it changes publisher.

Regarding the reactions, I get a bit dizzy I must admit. I can understand those who like Angel to be stand alone and all about his redemption set in LA. However, I've always thought the endgame to the Buffyverse would involve all the players and I'm presuming that's where we are heading. With that in my mind, having the titles under one publisher makes more sense to me.
bubblecat, great post. I agreed with a lot of what you said. I also feel like the Buffy comic has gotten too lost in its scope and has forgotten that a high focus on characters as opposed to plot is one of the things that was such a strength of the TV series.

Interestingly, I feel like Angel After the Fall didn't really have that problem at all, despite its similarly fantastic setting relative to the series.

However, I wonder if we are in fact going to get an "end game" to the Buffyverse. I wonder if Joss would ever really end it. Not to say that that would be a bad thing at all. In fact, it might need it. But it just seems very final, you know? I find it hard to imagine the day when Joss says, "Hey. Here is the final and ultimate word on the Buffyverse."

[ edited by Giles_314 on 2010-08-19 21:18 ]
The Goose - "But in response to Highlander I'm slightly worried that, yes, Dark Horse might not treat the existing story lines with respect. I'd rather not see things get retconned (I'm really talking more about the things Lynch has done than anyone else, I love Beta George)."

Fully appreciate that concern because I'm quite a big fan of much of the character and story development in the IDW Angel series. I'd hate to lose Beta George as well. My hope is that, rather than this move serving to destroy what IDW built up, it will instead firmly establish everything that happened after ATF as canon. It would be a shame if that didn't happen because, occasionally poor writing choices aside, there has been a lot of really enjoyable stuff going on. Too good to be cast aside, in my opinion.

Hellmouthguy - "Well, Highlander, my own problem with this happening has nothing to do with the venue (Dark Horse), but rather with the fact that I find the Buffy season 8 storyline to be ridiculously bad, an embarrassing and implausible stumble by a great creator, and profoundly damaging to the already tarnished Buffy legacy.

Well, I don't have as much of a problem with Season 8 as you obviously do, Hellmouthguy, but I do see where you are coming from. Certain aspects of it have, for me, stretched the believablity of the Buffy franchise a great deal more than anything I have seen at IDW. I've also always had something of an issue with the art. I think Jeanty is incredibly talented but the almost manga style he chose to go with for the characters never worked for me. As you said yourself, a little too pre-adolescent and cutesy.

Never had a problem with Urru though. Big fan!
@bubblecat: great post! nice to read a very rational analysis of what's going on. Just about sums up how I feel about this situation.
I definitely think the moments people remember from 'Buffy' (the series) are the character moments. Those are the ones which make peeps feel. That's not to say action set pieces bad - but the comics struggled from too much little. Example - the moment I remember most from season 8 is a single panel. Buffy missing her mom.
Oh - and Jo Chen's AMAZING artwork Gossi! Don't forget that!

So....where do I go to campaign for my fish?
The sales numbers really are supposed to tell us what about this move? "Angel" is still a valuable license for a comic, and any new "Angel #1" is going to outsell whatever IDW is doing now. It's just the nature of the business.
Jo Chen's artwork is in a class of its own.
Twilight is the stupidest thing since Vanilla Ice


So much for my planned Twilight/Vanilla Ice crossover fic, you big jerkhead...
The sales numbers really are supposed to tell us what about this move? "Angel" is still a valuable license for a comic, and any new "Angel #1" is going to outsell whatever IDW is doing now. It's just the nature of the business.
Oops, double posted.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-19 22:20 ]
I hope they don't make up wait 3 months for a confirmation.

Let's say that tomorrow we find out that your ultimate creative team has already been signed up for the new Dark Horse series. A writer and artist pairing that is so exceptional that it makes the original Claremont/Byrne run on X-Men seem second rate. Would that be enough to change your mind?


No. The team writing right now (Mariah and David) are that exceptional. Scott Tipton, a standup dude, who is writing Illyria with Mariah... is that exceptional. Brian Lynch, who is writing Spike, is more than that exceptional. Most of that IDW has done, for me, is leagues better than what Dark Horse has. And the creative team reaches out to fans a lot better, and are, in general, great people.

Everything wasn't perfect. Willingham was a mistake, and Armstrong wasn't good. But they just released the best issue since "After the Fall." And for me, "After the Fall" is the best thing to hit the Buffyverse besides "Not Fade Away" and "The Gift." Yes, that's ever.

The way it looks, I'm not sure I could even stomach it enough to support Dark Horse's continued work in the Buffyverse. They constantly blindside IDW with leaked announcements and doing stuff like this. It's not good business and it's not good ethics.

I care about IDW, I care about *their* Angel, and I care about the people that worked on both. So a decent creative team (though, Joss is having Scott Allie himself, again, a man who said he couldn't grasp the Buffy voices and tone, co-write a season finale that's been in the works for... three, four years? What?) wouldn't help.

I'd love it if Joss worked on The Avengers, because he deserves that. He's a genius, and needs to be recognized. Plot Buffy as much as you can, but leave it to writers who understand and want to write it. And for the love of TPTB, leave Angel at IDW where it belongs. Where it's gotten the attention it deserved when no one else wanted to work in that world.

[ edited by patxshand on 2010-08-19 22:07 ]
If the Angel series moving from IDW to DH means that Joss will be overseeing the direction of Angel's story then I consider this good news. Canon matters to me, with the exception of Brian Lynch's Spike series as I feel Joss basically disinherited that character in the latter half of Season 6, so I'm thankful Lynch has taken up the torch. And really, since Joss and Lynch worked together on Angel: After the Fall, I tend to favor Lynch's work as canon (but not convinced enough to buy Spike:Asylum. Will that be required reading for the new Spike series?). I really enjoyed his and Urru's work on Angel: After the Fall and hope this breaking news regarding IDW and DH does not interfere or kill Lynch's new project. If, however, Lynch's team is invited to bring the series under Dark Horse's banner, that would not upset me. To have Buffy and its spinoffs under one umbrella is a good thing as the chances are greater for Joss and other Buffyverse writers to be involved in the storytelling, thus remaining under canon.

Take it easy guys and many thanks to our moderators.
Hellmouthguy responded:

with all the really ill conceived superhero-y weirdness in the comics--Buffy is a flying space goddess at Dark Horse, Angel has been banished to a hell dimension and rides dragons at IDW--I didn't want to have to start dealing with non Buffyverse characters on top of it. For all I know the fish (Betta George?) and the other new characters might be awesome. I just didn't want to have to make the commitment.

I was curious about whether you'd kept up with IDW because your previous post, lamenting that the Angel franchise might be pulled into (or at least closer to) the Buffy Season 8 storyline, seemed to be implying that IDW had done better. If you've not kept up with the Angel books, then how do you know they're not horrible and that, as bad as you feel Season 8 is, Angel wouldn't be better off at Dark Horse ? That's what I'm a little unsure of. If you have no basis for comparison of the two publishers' accomplishments or failures (outside of keeping up with things through synopses), then how can you make a solid stand for this move being a bad thing ?

Also, if you dropped the Angel books, why do you care that this is happening ? If you're open to trying them out again, doesn't a different publisher possibly mean that an artist might be chosen who's more to your liking ? Otherwise, wouldn't your only concern be with whether Buffy Season 8 was going to get better or worse ?

The superpowered Buffy at the end of Season 4, fighting Adam, also due to magic, was pretty superhero comic booky. The Season 8 kind of powering up is just on a grander scale (and I'm finding the universe-wanted-it kinda questionable, unless explained better or worded less lamely), not really more out there than what happened on the show. The dragon that Angel rides...a dragon or dragon-like demon had already been seen coming out of the portal in "The Gift", plus it's the Angel TV series' finale that introduced the dragon Angel's currently interacting with...so dragons exist in the Buffyverse, why shouldn't someone eventually fight, kill, or ride one ? I understand how the comics feel less grounded (literally, when characters are riding mythical steeds and flying frequently--or a lot more frequently than they did on TV, in Willow's case), but the comics' freedom feels like a natural extension of the rules and trends established in the TV series, to me (character development/progression is a different matter). For you (and many others), they don't, and that's cool, but there's precedent and arguably a "seed" of an idea, from the shows, for just about everything that's happened in Season 8.

[ edited by Kris on 2010-08-19 22:48 ]
I find it hard to imagine the day when Joss says, "Hey. Here is the final and ultimate word on the Buffyverse."


Way back in the beginning of time, 4 years ago, this was what I was saying about the comic: that it was Joss' way of putting the Buffyverse to rest once and for all. And I still believe that. One thing we know, sort of: Buffy is not alive in the Frayverse as presented in the original comic. So somewhere along the line she is going to die. It will be in battle or it will not. But htis is where I see S9 going- not to an end like Harry Potter 7, with its coda, but to the end of Buffy and Angel in the 'verse.

But I do agree that the characters in this comic are off and not well done. I have no real sense of Willow any more, no idea of her interior life, nothing. I cannot care, and I have lost interest. And I never saw that happening.
So much for my planned Twilight/Vanilla Ice crossover fic, you big jerkhead...


I'm picturing Married With Childrenesque David Boreanaz standing on stage, rapping and breakdancing.
I remember one interview with Joss with him talking about how Buffy stories are all about the journey and that he didn't see an final ending to it. This is all badly paraphrasing, perhaps someone else remembers the same interview (I think I remember audio? podcast? maybe video interview? from around the time Serenity was being promoted?) to give an exact quote.

Either way, the point that Joss was making at the time (maybe it's different now after working on Season 8 for so long) that he didn't see a final ending to the series.
He's said a lot of things.

"I've been saying, anybody who didn't get that this is the last season after this scene was missing the point." - Joss Whedon, "Lessons" DVD commentary
"No. The team writing right now (Mariah and David) are that exceptional. Scott Tipton, a standup dude, who is writing Illyria with Mariah... is that exceptional. Brian Lynch, who is writing Spike, is more than that exceptional. Most of that IDW has done, for me, is leagues better than what Dark Horse has. And the creative team reaches out to fans a lot better, and are, in general, great people."

Thanks for that, patxshand. Explains a fair amount about why you have taken this more personally than others, myself included. It actually is a personal matter for you.

Other than the likes of Joss and Bryan whenever they post around here, I don't really have that much to do with anyone behind the scenes. I don't get much online time anymore and posting at forums is rare for me, especially these days. I don't have a problem with it, used to really enjoy it actually, but I just don't have the time. Same goes for conventions and other occasions for face to face meet-and-greet opportunities. What I know of the writers, artists, editors and such is limited pretty much to the work I see on the page. I suppose that does allow me to see what is happening here from a much more detached viewpoint.

I'm not going to argue for even a second with you about the quality of their work, particularly the names you mentioned above. As creative types they have impressed me no end. But I don't know them on any kind of personal level, as you do. My own preference would be to see at least some of them (Brian and Mariah especially) continue to work on the Angel series for Dark Horse. No idea how possible or likely that is but that would be my choice. If for no other reason than to help ensure solid continuity after the changeover.

Anyway, cheers for the reply. I might not share your view, exactly, but I do understand it now.
Thanks, I appreciate the thoughtful reply :)
I've been deprived of Twilight/Vanilla Ice crossover fic?!?!

Son of a biscuit eater!
IDW press release now available here.

I suspect DH let IDW be the one to fill in the gaps on this (and plug their future issues at the same time), due to the gaff on their part.

Edit: DH has their own, smaller press release on the matter.

[ edited by Parabola on 2010-08-20 01:09 ]
Hmm... sounds like fears that the IDW books will be nullified have been quelled. The last arc from IDW will bridge the gap between the stories that the two companies have been telling, which sounds like it'll all be used.
Well, as long as everyone is happily playing in the same sandbox. However, "Dark Horse really regrets that this news was released before a joint statement from both companies was issued," said Dark Horse Senior Editor Scott Allie." sounds incredibly disingenuous - didn't DH know their own publication schedule?
Dark Horse seems very disorganized.
Btw, anyone notice the "Last Gleaming" spoiler in the IDW press release? It's regarding the nature of Spike's crew. Interesting, I must say...

And PS: I should clarify that this isn't a dig at IDW. I'm just pointing out an observation about a spoiler. Nothing else meant by it.
Of course they did, baxter. Utterly, completely ridiculous and insulting to fans. We're smarter than that.
I've been deprived of Twilight/Vanilla Ice crossover fic?!?!

It's parody lyrics begging to be written, for sure.
Yeah I saw that wenxina and was confused if I had missed something. Aliens..whaaat?!
Maybe (due to some of the alternate dimensions dumping demons onto Earth, due to Twilight) they're really just extra-dimensional demons/species(which could be interpreted as aliens), and either IDW's press department got it wrong or Spike misinterprets. I dunno, the series could do it, play with aliens (why not, they've already dabbled in time travel, bleh), but does it really need to when it has demons to stand in as non-human, sentient beings ?

Maybe Buffy & Angel's space-sex caught someone's extra-terrestrial eye, heh. Too early to get worked up, annoyed, or excited over until we know more/see it in the book.
It's parody lyrics begging to be written, for sure.


*waits for the begging*
Aw, c'mon!!!!!!!!!!
We did have an alien in Buffy before, Kris, in Listening to Fear. Ben summons a big cockroach/beetle alien thing from outer space to eat the people that Glory was mind-sucking. Or something. It's one of my least favourite episodes. Safe to say that I wasn't jumping up and down in excitement over that spoiler. Not so much because of that episode, but because it's another ridiculous element.
At first glance, yeah, I'd call ridiculous on "aliens in Buffy stories!" We'll see how it's executed though. Like I said, I kinda anticipate the bugs being demons from another dimension. 'Cause otherwise, folks like Lorne are aliens.

I had the thing from "Listening to Fear" in mind, but I couldn't recall if that was regarded as an alien within the show or not (or if they just never really talked about it enough for viewers to be able to classify it). I thought it had simply been a demon from the moon (or was in orbit or something). That Ben would've been able to summon aliens doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home