August 19 2010
Angel returns to Dark Horse.
The announcement you've all been waiting for. Dark Horse and IDW (SPOILER) have both issued press releases. IDW's Editor-in-Chief Chris Ryall is answering questions in their forums.
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gossi | August 19, 16:14 CET
[ edited by marvelknight616 on 2010-08-20 01:17 ]
marvelknight616 | August 19, 16:17 CET
Parabola | August 19, 16:18 CET
KingofCretins | August 19, 16:20 CET
marvelknight616 | August 19, 16:23 CET
IrrationaliTV | August 19, 16:24 CET
cazador | August 19, 16:26 CET
baxter | August 19, 16:28 CET
BethS | August 19, 16:28 CET
I have steered clear of the Angel comics since AtF also...
insistondoubt | August 19, 16:29 CET
It's canon now. I see no other possible interpretation of this announcement.
Now, that's not to say that we can't hope that things like Dez and James and the (from what I've heard) completely lore-breaking arc involving the creation of vampires can't be wrapped up and simply put off to the side with things like the Immortal before the canon moves back under one publisher, but... it's what happened. It's the story.
KingofCretins | August 19, 16:29 CET
swanjun | August 19, 16:31 CET
dorotea | August 19, 16:33 CET
project bitsy | August 19, 16:35 CET
I don't think transition poses many problems from a characterization standpoint (although I know there are more than a few Spike enthusiasts who would disagree). I just hope they can sufficiently prowank the mythology derps -- see above re: cat-changers, angels of dubious intent, and mass produced vampires -- into oblivion.
KingofCretins | August 19, 16:38 CET
Maybe to appease fans of the Angel series? If Joss's name isn't on it or he hasn't said acknowledged it as canon, then it's not. You're welcome to adopt it into yours but it hasn't been made official per one's interpretation of a press release.
I'm unsure why you are so matter of factly stating that the character arcs from IDW are going to carry over. I'm sure AtF will because Joss was actually involved in it, but the rest, (other than the Lynch Spike series) I seriously doubt. Willingham said during Twangel-gate that Joss never worked with him and that's enough for me to write off those stories as non-canon. If you can't see another interpretation of this announcement, then you clearly do not wish to. If Joss directly acknowledges it in or out of narrative, alright. Otherwise, it's just like pre-Tales Buffy books at DH.
EDIT: haha...I wrote lynch Spike.
[ edited by marvelknight616 on 2010-08-20 01:45 ]
marvelknight616 | August 19, 16:41 CET
Which makes putting it at the bottom of a letter in a comic you publish an interesting choice.
Facepalm.
patxshand | August 19, 16:41 CET
Emphasis added.
Please, I beg you or anybody to articulate a rational reason to even bother if the storyline in IDW isn't part of the continuity of those characters and their experiences when they go to Dark Horse. There isn't one. There's no reason, especially with Joss himself apparently having placed his blessing on this collaborative effort, to even bother if Dark Horse shows up with a clean sheet of paper about those characters. And if they don't have a clean sheet of paper, that means that other stories are part of those characters experiences, which by definition means those experiences are canonical.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-20 01:49 ]
KingofCretins | August 19, 16:48 CET
And this is where I remind everyone not to let the discussion get personal. I see it's heading that way already. Keep it respectful.
Sunfire | August 19, 16:50 CET
Joss:"The origin comic, though I have issues with it, CAN pretty much be accepted as canonical. They did a cool job of combining the movie script (the SCRIPT) with the series, that was nice, and using the series Merrick and not a certain OTHER thespian who shall remain hated"
So what do we need, Joss to give his blessing to the post-ATF stuff so we can accept it? Or is this a blessing in of itself as KOC says above. If they are coordinating storylines and this last arc and the Spike series are setting up future storylines in Buffy season 9 then I don't see how you can not see that as canonical.
eddy | August 19, 16:56 CET
I also think it's a little rude that I've been giving you perfectly logical reasons and you're basically calling them invalid. I understand why it would be upsetting for some fans if the IDW stories weren't canonical, but the subtext of this to me reads everything that Joss's paws weren't in will be tossed or at the very least permanently ignored. MAYBE the last arc will count, but I doubt it. Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll find out next year, won't we? Also, I don't think things were left so well with Willingham and DH/Joss.
[ edited by marvelknight616 on 2010-08-20 01:58 ]
marvelknight616 | August 19, 16:57 CET
In the meantime, IDW lined up a lot of great Angel books to finish their run, and by the gods and goddesses I will BUY THEM ALL!!!! (/Spartacus: Blood and Sand)
Zelikman | August 19, 16:59 CET
redeem147 | August 19, 17:01 CET
Now looking to the last arc, as is now canon for me, and the Spike miniseries.
[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2010-08-20 02:03 ]
Angel TheVampire | August 19, 17:01 CET
Scott Allie: Yeah, we've had the conversation with IDW, and S9 won't have the same continuity issues that S8 had with IDW's books. Angel won't be in Buffy's book very much, masked or otherwise, and whatever Spike does in the Buffy title will fit with what he's doing in his own title.
Since Allie's talking about S9 here, I'm interpreting this to mean that Angel and Spike will most likely have their own series under Dark Horse, and that they will occasionally intersect with Buffy's series (since Dark Horse plans of releasing multiple titles under the S9 banner). This of course is my interpretation of the response in light of recent developments.
wenxina | August 19, 17:03 CET
I don't think there's anything ambiguous about the phrase "Under the direction of Joss Whedon". It's language that I don't think anybody is going to use by accident; it's not like they don't know that Joss would be perfectly happy to go "uh, no it's not" if it wasn't true. What we're seeing here is the culmination of what has basically been a year-long beatdown that IDW has been taking from bad spoilers and so on being made up to them in the only way it meaningfully could be -- by setting their story into canon. It may only be adopted in the core of it and not the details (such as, for instance, "Antique" -- I don't think Season 8 gives much support that Xander was literally a hunchback, for instance), but the implication is very clear. You don't transition, collaborate, and coordinate with someone whose contribution doesn't actually matter to what you're going to do.
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:03 CET
[ edited by eddy on 2010-08-20 02:06 ]
eddy | August 19, 17:05 CET
eddy | August 19, 17:05 CET
Jeez.
patxshand | August 19, 17:07 CET
If we're at the start of an expanded, comic-based Buffyverse that can be Dark Horse's own counterpart to Marvel or DC's universe, that will require more than just three titles, IMO.
Pat... I wouldn't mock it, given that the very, very easy alternative would have been "they don't matter".
EDIT: No, that's trite and unfair of me to say -- they couldn't have said "they don't matter" because you have it in black and white right there that this is what Joss is wanting done. It is, apparently, the only reason a deal was put together to get the rights back.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-20 02:10 ]
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:08 CET
eddy | August 19, 17:11 CET
That "they matter" thing is going to also mean cash on the barrelhead for IDW.
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:13 CET
And KingofCretins, you "transition, collaborate, and coordinate " when you want to bring the IDW fans over and ease the transition. That's all I see it as.
Lioness | August 19, 17:14 CET
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:16 CET
Matt7325 | August 19, 17:17 CET
[ edited by wenxina on 2010-08-20 02:21 ]
wenxina | August 19, 17:17 CET
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:20 CET
The promise that there is a smooth transition is the hook.
@Matt
That seems like a decent possibility although that would really cram the continuity.
@KoC
That would be a pretty cool final panel. Although, assuming the Spike series is running adjacent Angel, that would probably goof things up since Spike is supposed to be a fairly immediate prequel to his entrance in Season 8
[ edited by marvelknight616 on 2010-08-20 02:24 ]
marvelknight616 | August 19, 17:20 CET
Skytteflickan88 | August 19, 17:20 CET
maje | August 19, 17:21 CET
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:24 CET
patxshand | August 19, 17:27 CET
menomegirl | August 19, 17:27 CET
marvelknight616 | August 19, 17:29 CET
[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 02:33 ]
Emmie | August 19, 17:33 CET
If an outgoing President decided at the last minute to just stay in the oval office and not step down, would the President-Elect have had a smooth transition? A collaborative effort here, once again under the direction of Joss Whedon*, that doesn't end up with "Angel" characters who've been through the core events of their IDW books is as smooth a transition as that kid in the old Far Side cartoon going from outside his school to inside it.
*I keep bringing that fact up because, for Joss to have actually taken a personal interest in this process means he's invested in there being this smoothness and continuity. If all he wanted, full-stop, was the rights back, he's got them, and there'd be no reason to take an interest in any collaboration between IDW and Dark Horse.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-20 02:41 ]
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:34 CET
marvelknight616 | August 19, 17:35 CET
My only concern is that Dark Horse tends to not do many miniseries and they require Joss' direct involvement for his titles. Which is good, I guess... but at the same time, I loved all of IDW's miniseries and would hate to lose those little 4-6 issue stories. But Dark Horse is going with several titles/miniseries under the season 9 banner, so maybe Angel characters will continue to get their miniseries, too.
Also, I pray that Dark Horse will hire Lynch to work on an on-goin Spike title. Please, please, please, comic gods! We need Lynch writing in the 'verse. We really do!
[ edited by jesse on 2010-08-20 02:36 ]
jesse | August 19, 17:35 CET
patxshand | August 19, 17:44 CET
baxter | August 19, 17:44 CET
KingofCretins | August 19, 17:46 CET
IDW has been lovely and gracious though and I'm grateful for that.
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-08-20 02:51 ]
lmblack21 | August 19, 17:50 CET
wenxina | August 19, 17:56 CET
I personally am not too excited by this because I feel bad for IDW and the way that DH kept dicking them on things. I like IDW, I like a lot of their properties and I’ll miss seeing their name next to Angel’s and co.’s logos. I do like that fact that DH usually keeps their books at 2.99 an issue rather than 3.99, and I am happy to know that the books will all be together in the same house. So, it’s a win-lose for me about this whole thing.
That’s my two cents. Imma hit the log out button and troll the topic cause I don’t wanna argue. I’ve been told once before to knock it off.
[ edited by The Goose on 2010-08-20 03:06 ]
The Goose | August 19, 18:04 CET
[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 03:05 ]
Emmie | August 19, 18:05 CET
Kairos | August 19, 18:14 CET
I'm very happy about this and "S9" sounds amazing. For years fans have talked about the end of the Buffyverse being this join effort with both teams and now it looks like we'll be getting this epic conclusion.
vampmogs | August 19, 18:34 CET
Taaroko | August 19, 18:57 CET
Congrats on your rite of passage whenever it was, Sunfire.
Back to our story already in progress...
QuoterGal | August 19, 18:59 CET
Nicole | August 19, 19:05 CET
Skytteflickan88 | August 19, 19:15 CET
Shapenew | August 19, 19:53 CET
wenxina | August 19, 20:04 CET
I think we need a HUGE Whedon-verse crossover event! Can you imagine Faith meeting Echo? Or Vi meeting Penny? Or Wash meeting Alpha? Geektastic!
[ edited by jesse on 2010-08-20 05:15 ]
jesse | August 19, 20:14 CET
patxshand | August 19, 20:16 CET
I'm pretty much yay. I've always wanted Joss in charge of both sides of the 'verse. Here's hoping that Joss has enough energy to deliver stories that actually merit all the fuss were making over this stuff.
Maggie | August 19, 20:23 CET
Also, though, I see what you did there.
*Completely Different Vampires. I just made that up.
Maggie: "things got wonky in LA" is not a conclusion that justifies the effort of Joss himself having insisted on some sort of collaborative resolution here (which seems to be the only likely reading of "under the direction of"). All the effort would be the same as building the Golden Gate bridge, except for the a nice 10 ft segment on the city side that keeps it from actually being useful as a bridge.
KingofCretins | August 19, 20:30 CET
EDIT: Though, imagine Lafayette interacting with... uh, well any Buffyverse character? Would be amazing.
[ edited by patxshand on 2010-08-20 05:41 ]
patxshand | August 19, 20:33 CET
No, I agree. I think it's mostly done to try and appease fans of IDW and out of some basic respect. I doubt the stories will rely much on what IDW has produced over the past year or so I just don’t think they’ll contradict any of it either. I think it only becomes a canon debate if a Darkhorse writer directly references something that happened in Armstrong or Willingham’s arc. I just think KoC has a point that these stories definitely have a different status then previous “un-canon” stories which used to be completely ignored by the main story. Things have changed and it’s obviously become a bit more complicated and delicate than that. Personally, I wouldn't care if they blatantly contradicted all of the latest Ats stories because I think they're terrible. I won't be catching up on all of them because I have no will to and I don't think it'll be required to understand any of Darkhorse's stories anyway. But if it makes other fans happy then I'm ok with it.
Lynch's SPIKE series is another matter because Whedon's given him permission to write back story on Spike's crew ("alien bugs" apparently) and is overseeing Willow's appearance in the book. It ties into S8 therefore I gotta read it!
vampmogs | August 19, 20:42 CET
But I'm also really hopefully that the IDW work is taken into account. Because of all the hubbub and not really having anything to do today, I decided to reread all of After the Fall, and I am even more impressed than the first time. That series was amazing (regardless of how I feel about what has come since), and I just want to give kudos to all that worked on it, as I feel it was a really tight and well-thought-out book that got the characters spot on while not being afraid to take them new places and ultimately telling a compelling and emotional story. So, yeah. I really hope they don't ignore the IDW comics, ATF especially, and I am crossing my fingers that Brian Lynch will come to DH.
Giles_314 | August 19, 20:46 CET
LAFAYETTE: In this comic business, the rights to "Angel" come with french fries, lettuce, tomatoes, mayo...
KingofCretins | August 19, 20:51 CET
Forgetting the issue of what these releases mean (we'll know when Angel ends on IDW and begins at Dark Horse) I think a lot of people are overlooking a very key point on why the word collaborative is in here. It's actually in Joss's best financial interest if he wants to keep the franchises viable to WORK with the people who license his charecters if he can.
As much as it seems some people would like to see DH and Joss blow the IDW mythology out of the water, he hurts the title's value by doing so. Unlike a lot of comics, the name IS the story. It doesn't reboot. If Joss simply pulls the plug and says... "see that 4 years or so, that didn't count," he sends the signal that, "if you buy the rights to one of my stories, you do at your own risk."
Well that's great as long as Whedon and Allie are always on the same page. But suppose years down the line, they're having a little tiff (not likely, but this is why you don't do it) and the rights become available again and he wants to shop the story. Well... if you are any other publisher, the past history at IDW provides disincentive to bid. No publisher wants to publish a story that a creator can excercise control of demand AND does so. Not because Joss is mercurial (well, maybe he is... never met him), but because that is a major risk.
If Joss can work around what IDW has done and give it legs on the other hand, it's win-win-win. It's a win for IDW because it perhaps allows them to sell more reissues if they choose. It's a win for Joss because it gives him new tangents to explore and tie up as he wants to see them tied up and holds or increases the value of the name Angel, and it's a win for DH because Joss is happy.
To be fair, I'm not a huge fan of either comic series (comics were never my thing so this isn't a quality dig) but I really don't get the antipathy that this news seems generate. Or why simply not caring for the Angel comics seems to make certain people want Joss to simply blow them away. The 'ole, if I don't like something nobody does logic.
[ edited by azzers on 2010-08-20 08:08 ]
azzers | August 19, 20:56 CET
wenxina | August 19, 21:20 CET
Buffyfantic | August 19, 21:21 CET
I do suppose I'll have to start buying the IDW titles that are getting officially coordinated, because those will matter more. For me the only dark side here is Lynch's role in things going forward. I'm not a fan. But I can hope that the greater coordination will help shape Lynch's ongoing work in a way that is closer to the vision and complexity of AtS.
The final IDW arc about W&H has lots of potential to address your concerns about how Angel got to where he got to in season 8. Fingers crossed that it will be well done. I do like Mariah. Coordination can only be a good thing. So it's something I'm at least hopeful about.
Maggie | August 19, 21:27 CET
Although I'm sad to see IDW stop their series, I also see how both titles under one roof can be a good things. I just hope that this means the Angel series is now officially canon, although I'm interpreting the press-release as a confirmation that it is.
My biggest hope though: that Brian is allowed to write for Dark Horse. If not, this is bad news, instead of good.
BTW: anyone notice Ryall and Allie both have the same profile picture on Twitter?
[ edited by Allycat on 2010-08-20 06:34 ]
Allycat | August 19, 21:33 CET
wenxina | August 19, 21:35 CET
I think Joss gets diddly squat from the Buffy and Angel comics. 20th Century Fox are the ones who reap the benefits. Fray on the hand, I think he owns that character.
Simon | August 19, 22:32 CET
That, and in finance (which ultimately studios are interested in), less risk on your returns is always priced higher. So aside from feeling swell about the whole thing, there's something basic at play here - what his work is worth to a studio or the person writing the checks.
I thought someone would catch the ownership aspect, I'd just already gone nuts with paragraphs.
[ edited by azzers on 2010-08-20 08:08 ]
azzers | August 19, 22:53 CET
I can see where you're coming from but Joss did try his best with the Buffyverse DVD movies several years ago but that ultimately came to nothing. I think he now just wants a cohesive universe so he can bring his story to a satisfactory end (for him maybe not for the fans).
Simon | August 19, 23:11 CET
[EDIT]
"IDW Publishing confirmed today that it will launch the company’s final Angel story arc in November."
Tehehe... and this is why I should read before posting comments. Bad, Carmen. Bad.
[ edited by Carmie on 2010-08-20 08:16 ]
Carmie | August 19, 23:15 CET
eddy | August 19, 23:30 CET
Simon | August 19, 23:31 CET
hopitopia | August 20, 00:07 CET
I'm very glad to hear that there will be continuity between where IDW leave off and Dark Horse pick up. In many ways it would have been so much easier for DH to start afresh with their own version of what happened after After The Fall, but instead they are making the IDW stuff count. That is a major bonus for me because a lot of it has been really good and deserves to stick.
I have to say, I agree with KingofCretins on the canon issue. While it would be absolutely possible to only take selected parts of the IDW stuff as canon, I actually think that doing so would be harder than just taking it all as fact now.
I mean, we know everything up to the end of ATF is canon. We know the final arc is being set up as canon and we also know that the Spike series is canon. So what if Laura, Eddie Hope, James and anyone else who was introduced in Aftermath and beyond now play a role in the stories that are definitely canon? No reason to think that they won't be. And what about any character development involving the likes of Angel, Connor, Spike and the rest of the core cast that bleeds through to the known canon material but was initially set up in the questionable issues? And what if there is some reference to an event that happened in the non-canon material in the canon Spike book, for example? Does that one mentioned event become canon? Does the entire issue it happened in become canon? The entire arc?
See how it all gets very messy, given what we know? If it's true that the final arc and the Spike book are to be considered canon and that ATF certainly was, then ignoring all that happened in between is going to lead to some real problems, especially if the likes of Laura and Eddie still play any part in what is to come.
In my opinion it would be far easier to simply say that the whole run is canon, and from what I've read in the official announcements so far, that is the plan. Just hope Joss will make it 'Whedon-Official' so that the debate can finally end now.
Highlander | August 20, 02:14 CET
But I'm glad it's all under one roof now, so I can leave the comics all in one sweep in case S8 disappoints (when it finally get to the point in the last 5 issues) or go on if it finally picks up.
| August 20, 03:21 CET
This is another example of how not to do business and it does make me question DH's business ethics, as patsxhand has shown a number of significant gaffes they have made. Since I don't much care for Angel all I can but hope is that his role in future Buffy is limited at best, since he stops the story for me every time he shows up. But that's me.
Dana5140 | August 20, 04:10 CET
Buffy comics, that sounded like two of my favorite things together a few years ago and now it turns out it's pretty much a beer and pudding combination...
I wish they'd get it over with.
| August 20, 04:15 CET
I imagine the reason to keep the news under wraps was in order not to kill sales to IDW's series, as similar to if a series was being cancelled, it could lead to fans leaving the series.
As to the whole cannon debate, will Joss or any of the writers on the Angel series read up on all of the IDW series? As it's hard to bring them into the fold if they aren't even aware of the series. As it seems that a lot of the Buffy novels and even earlier Buffy comics, while Joss was aware they existed he didn't read any of them.
That said, count me in as one of the fans happy to see Buffy and Angel under one company again for more and easier back and forth between the series.
Matt_Fabb | August 20, 04:54 CET
And remember all the buzz and attention that got their comic book.
As for will people have to read the IDW comics to understand the DH Angel series, I suspect not,all DH needs to do is have a character give a brief summary of the 'important' bits of what's happened and then they'll forge ahead. I expect many of the IDW storylines will never be spoken of again,
helcat | August 20, 05:02 CET
To be honest I'm not exactly sure what there is to discuss on that particular topic. It's happened, for good or for bad. Whether you think it's a shoddy move or not, it's pretty much water under the bridge. Either you are annoyed by what Dark Horse did, or you're not. It's a done deal and frankly not one that I feel needs any further discussion. I mean, what good will it do? What difference will it make?
"As to the whole cannon debate, will Joss or any of the writers on the Angel series read up on all of the IDW series?"
It sounds to me as if they already are doing exactly that...
I would have to think that it would be hard to accomplish this without the new Dark Horse creative team being well informed on what IDW have done.
Highlander | August 20, 05:11 CET
archon | August 20, 05:53 CET
YouDriveLikeASpaz | August 20, 06:01 CET
tmvde | August 20, 08:59 CET
As far as I'm concerned, the IDW canon thing is After the Fall, the new Spike series, and the last arc of Angel as it transitions into Season 8 continuity. I still have an overall pleasant feeling toward the Buffy comics and am reserving judgment on the last couple of arcs until I see the Endgame and where it leads.
PuppetDoug | August 20, 11:18 CET
scarecroe | August 21, 08:57 CET
Anyway, I'm happy Angel and Buffy will be under the same roof again. I'm just happy knowing that Joss will be able to take a more hands on approach with Angel and that some of the great Buffy/Angel show writers will be able to work on it again. While some are not liking recent events involving Angel in Buffy season 8, I have faith in Joss. Even after the crazy events surrounding Boyd in Dollhouse, Joss still wrapped the show up in a satisfying way and I think season 8 of Buffy will also end well
I liked what they did with Angel at IDW though. After the Fall was excellent, Brian Lynch's comic-con story was funny(though I couldn't quite get into Last Angel in Hell), I thought what Juliette Landau did with Drusilla was very cool(really appreciate the love she shows for that particular role she played) and I liked the classy Lorne tribute issue. I'm a bit behind on Bill Willingham's Angel run, but the last one or two issues I read showed the story getting interesting.
Arkham258 | August 22, 19:26 CET