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August 20 2010

(SPOILER) Big Buffyfest Interview with Scott Allie about Angel's return to Dark Horse. Also talks about the Riley One-Shot and spoilers for upcoming issues of Buffy Season 8 and Season 9.

I figure this should have it's own thread since it gets into spoilers for the comics.

The ANGEL title is said to be under the branch of Buffy Season Nine.

Um.

Uh.

Huh.
That's because S9 is merely a blanket term. Angel will have his own title under S9, from what it sounds like. Meaning that he will have his own book to grow in.
But again. "Under Season Nine." It's a part of the overall Buffy story, not sharing a universe, but under the damn title. I don't know what else to take from the way it's worded. That is very, very depressing.
The stories told are of the same universe. Buffy and Angel are characters within it. I get what you're getting at, that Angel's character will only be used in service of Buffy's story.
And if S9 will be structured the way S8 is, then I'd agree.
But because Angel is getting his own book, I just don't see him being slighted. It's possible to tell many smaller stories that build into a big one in the way S9 is being set up. And both Angel's and Buffy's (and everyone else's) story can be the same, just from different perspectives.
The stories told on AtS and BtVS were supposed to be able to intersect anyway. The Buffyverse encompasses both (which I'm positive you know, so I apologize if it sounds pedantic).

[ edited by wenxina on 2010-08-20 07:16 ]
He said it'll be like the early Marvel universe--but obviously the Buffyverse. I don't know about anyone else, but when I talk about BtVS and AtS, I call it the Buffyverse. So I have no hesitation with calling an ANGEL book a part of the Buffyverse because that's simply truth.

But I don't think Season 9 as a title makes sense anymore. The next stage of the comics is leaving behind the 22-episodes-to-40-issues linear style of storytelling. This isn't a TV series season as told through comics. This is a comics universe with stories being told in separate titles side by side.

"Season 9" just doesn't seem big enough to encapsulate what's coming. What's more, I think comics starring ANGEL characters shouldn't be absorbed into Season 9.

I think this next stage post-Season 8 and post-IDW needs a new name.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 07:21 ]
Puts paid to the whole "Scott blindsided IDW" thing.
I think this next stage post-Season 8 and post-IDW needs a new name.


"Before The Fray".
Well, Allie said at ECCC that the way things were shaping up, "Season 9" didn't seem to work, because of the scope of the entire project.
I agree that it's not the best name (it's a misnomer, as Emmie alluded to), but I think for now, that's what we're referring to it as until the official title is confirmed.
All of Whedon's works have been proper names of either the title character (the who: Buffy, Angel, Fray) or the framework that surrounds them (the what: Firefly, Dollhouse). I think using the names doesn't work here: can't call it BUFFY and demote ANGEL, can't call it BUFFY & ANGEL because that's too ungainly. So I guess it becomes a question of another defining characteristic besides the who (the what? the when?). The who will be covered by the individual characters' arc titles (BUFFY, ANGEL, SPIKE, WILLOW, FAITH, etc.), but what do you call the greater landscape? It all depends on what's to come, what greater story is driving all these individual arcs, what's bringing them all together in the end.

I'm looking forward to a new name. Anticipation rising...

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 07:38 ]
Maybe we can start a poll for titles and send the winning entries to Dark Horse. :)
Only half kidding.

Perhaps they won't bother with an overarching name (for the reasons you just gave), and perhaps just title each of the series like the Willow and Riley one-shot, where the title was merely "Willow" or "Riley". I guess those one one-shots still had the BtVS logo, but that can easily be omitted.

Or hey, "Sunnydale 2012: The End is Nigh".
Puts paid to the whole "Scott blindsided IDW" thing.

No it doesn't, He even admits he released news they'd agreed to release later in the year in an off-hand comment in a comic book. Thus the blindsiding.
Well at least there's lot of new possibilities for romantic entanglements. How about shipping Giles/Laura? Or if Dawn dies, I could see a love-triangle between Xander (demon-pet extraordinair) and Illyria or Spider. Or maybe Andrew and Lorne could get it on? Groo and Faith would be weird but hilarious. I do hope that if they aim to merge the universe again that they'll mix up the characters a bit.

[ edited by Allycat on 2010-08-20 07:40 ]
@helcat: I think Kaan was referencing the rather humorous image at the end.
I'm pretty sure there's a way to creatively intertwine the BtVS and AtS logos--the stylized B and A--which would look quite interesting. And that would cover that base in terms of showing the joint nature of the 'verse. It's a good way to acknowledge what's come before, but also demonstrate a new synthesis at hand.

I still think it'd be great to have a name that pulls all the individual titles together because there naturally appears to be a greater arc. The way this story is being described, it's bigger than just BUFFY, just ANGEL, just Season 9.

An epic name would be a great way to reintroduce/rebrand/relaunch/re-whatever-you-want.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 07:45 ]
"DarkHorse Buffyverse: No More Screw-Ups".
A good start, but maybe it'd sound better in French. Most insults do.
The Astonishing Slayer ?
Well, I dunno... Hellboy and B.P.R.D. comprise a pretty epic universe and they do alright with just the two titles.
Well, I dunno... Hellboy and B.P.R.D. comprise a pretty epic universe and they do alright with just the two titles.


Considering the nature of this joining of two separate series, and the long struggle for ANGEL to establish an identity away from BUFFY (to the extent that a cameo by SMG in the Not Fade Away was rejected when Smidge was finally ready and willing), I think it'd be unwise to regress ANGEL's title that way. If ANGEL as a title is no longer relevant... well, it seems a bit sad to me.

When England and Scotland joined up, they didn't call it England because the country was more well-known and powerful, did they? Just stands to reason.

Maybe they won't figure on a new name because it's too confusing, it dilutes the power of the brand, it's blah blah blah difficult. Still, I think it'd disappointing for ANGEL's sake if it's just called BUFFY.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 08:03 ]
It's difficult for us to guess on anything regarding the next set of Buffy comics since they're still a year away and we haven't even finished Season Eight yet.

Although, bing bing bing, idea: banners? Like DC's Brightest Day banners? Easy way to unify the story but still give characters individually titled books.
OMG, I love this interview so much. Just another reason to love Scott Allie to itty bitty pieces.

Buffyfest: Switching gears to the Riley One-Shot. It seems like Jane Espenson was really paralleling Riley and Sam's relationship with Angel and Buffy's.

Scott Allie: Thank you, Michelle! Bingo. Has anyone else figured that?

Buffyfest: For example Riley's line, "No, it's okay. We're together even when we're not" can just as easily be Angel's line. Are we supposed to see it that way?

Scott Allie: Jane Espenson is HOTTT!


YES! Some of us figured that out and I thank Buffyfest for asking that question and I adore Allie's answer to it!! Always nice to see that your interpretation isn't just biased shipper hope.

I'm so very excited about the prospects of the Buffy/Angel 'verse being ONE BIG COHESIVE 'verse again I can barely stand it.

Thanks for bringing this over, HUGE thanks to Buffyfest AND to the always gracious and fun Scott Allie.

*is happy*

[ edited by lmblack21 on 2010-08-20 08:25 ]
Other than calling it IDW's ANGEL and DARK HORSE'S BUFFY WHICH LEAVES IDW ALONE AND GOES ABOUT ITS BUSINESS, I think it'd be best, if there is one big story with many titles... to have an event name. Like Marvel's Civial War. Like ANGEL: CIVIL WAR (WHICH IS UNFORTUNATELY BEING PUBLISHED BY DARK HORSE) and BUFFY: CIVIL WAR.
@helcat: I think Kaan was referencing the rather humorous image at the end.

I wasn't, but that's pretty funny. It's a great pic. :)


No it doesn't, He even admits he released news they'd agreed to release later in the year in an off-hand comment in a comic book. Thus the blindsiding.

*Shrug*

I'm getting used to DH's stuff ups. Scott said it was a mistake. They happen sometimes. People have been claiming that this is something IDW had no knowledge about. As if DH could go and take one of their licenses without IDW knowing, which is completely ridiculous. It leaked, in the wrong place, but 24 hours later both companies release statements together clarifying certain things. DH was doing IDW a solid in not announcing this earlier (it would have been huge news at SDCC) and so this just brought the announcement ahead a couple of months. For all the behind-the-scenes people its all done and dusted. And for the fandom it just means that we get all this bile now instead of closer to christmas time.

RE: The Title. I hope they just stick with the normal BUFFY and ANGEL titles followed by the respective name of each supporting player that get their own book (e.g. BtVS: Xander (*hint hint* Joss, Scott) or ANGEL: Wesley).

Even better would be if they split the characters up not into individuals, but into smaller teams, eg. Connor, Dawn, Faith, and Spike create the "BLUE TEAM" (to go with the X-Men reference) and then theres a "YELLOW TEAM" etc etc.
Mistakes happen sometimes. Allie blindsiding IDW seems to happen more than sometimes. Quite nearly always.
And because I was reminded that the subtext actually came from Jane Espenson, I have to shout out my love for her too which is odd, coming from me. Ha. Although she has written many episodes I enjoyed, usually from the earlier seasons though. Anyway, probably should have put that in with the episode discussion but since it was this interview that confirmed that subtext I felt....it goes here.

I'm all mushy with love. Love, love, love.
Yep, Pat. That's basically what I'm saying. I was thinking about an event name, but only coming up with lame ones like Faith: Evolution or Willow: Apocalypse Now.
Mistakes happen sometimes. Allie blindsiding IDW seems to happen more than sometimes. Quite nearly always.

Please tell me the last time Scott "blindsided" IDW.
EMMIE: Haha well, we *can* speculate on specific names I suppose, but that'll be decided by the subject matter. I really do hope Dark Horse either chooses to go this route (or disbands), because if ANGEL is just under the BUFFY title again... then why all of this?

Kaan: Every Angel related announcement they ever made. This, beyond obviously. Yes. He forgot to take it out of a letter. Um. Huh? The leakage of Angel as Twilight. Even before DH was working on getting ANGEL back, there was a lot of unsavory comments made about IDW that have been since apologized for, but are called to the front of my memory when stuff like this keeps happening.

So the last time he blindsided IDW was... um, Wednesday.

[ edited by patxshand on 2010-08-20 08:27 ]
Haha well, we *can* speculate on specific names I suppose, but that'll be decided by the subject matter.


Which is why we won't get to name it! Unless we get massive spoilers ahead of time...

Yeah, I think this is the best way to go with the titles. And I'm also attached to the intertwined BtVS/AtS logos image in my head.

because if ANGEL is just under the BUFFY title again... then why all of this?


Exactly so.
I share patxshands concerns. Over at IDW Angel was a very important title, with it's own one-shots and mini-series. As part of season 9 it already appears to be of diminished importance.That's of great concern to me. Maybe as more details are released I can form a more coherant view. At the moment it's very hard for me to concieve of Angel stories not produced by the wonderful folk at IDW whose grace despite the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune is commendable as usual. I'm planning to enjoy the last of IDW's output to the very full, but at the moment feel very, very sad. The thought Angelverse without Brian, Scott,Chris, Mariah, David M, Franco, Elena etc...
I'm less worried about Angel's current story continuing and more concerned that the historic ANGEL comics (i.e. Barbary Coast, Blood & Trenches) won't be pursued. And while we're at it, can we get a Fanged Four comic please?
Some titles

Buffy:Secret Invasion
Buffy:Final Crisis
Buffy:Blackest Night
Buffy:Brightest Day
Buffy:R.I.P.
Buffy:The Battle For The Scythe
Buffy:Dark Reign
Buffy:Siege
Buffy:Civil War
Buffy:World Of Slayers
Buffy:War of The Slayers
Buffy:The Heroic Age

I can think up a few more.lol

Actually I like Emmie's idea of a intertwined BtVS/AtS logo image.Sort of like what DC uses on their Superman/Batman monthly.I've also always liked the Buffy Season 5 logo.So maybe someting mixing that with a Angel logo.

I've been thinking this for a while based off Scott's recent interviews.

1)Buffy Season 8 was a four year transitional story to a new status quo.Buffy Season 9 will be the new status quo.

2)BTVS and ATS are more or less being folded back into each other.Into one story under the Buffy Season 9 banner.

3)Ever since Scott's interview at Slayalive,I've been thinking on the format of season 9 and how Angel factors in.I think this interview confirms I'm on the right direction.

Buffy Season 8 was one long monthly series with three
One-Shots(Tales of The Vampire,Willow,Riley) and some web comics.

Buffy Season 9 has a more expansive format.Per Scott's recent Slayalive interview

SlayAlive: Let's talk Angel and Spike. You confirmed that we would be seeing them in Season 9. Given that IDW will still be publishing books on these characters, is this something that's come up in your discussions with them, so that everyone's on the same page so nothing too crazy happens with a character (e.g. undergoes a secondary mutation into a more feral form or something like that)?

Scott Allie: Yeah, we've had the conversation with IDW, and S9 won't have the same continuity issues that S8 had with IDW's books. Angel won't be in Buffy's book very much, masked or otherwise, and whatever Spike does in the Buffy title will fit with what he's doing in his own title.


and

Scott Allie: We know a certain amount about the new format for Season 9, but can't explain too much yet. Once it starts, though, there will likely never be a month with less than two books, over the course of the 2-year period. There will be books that last that entire 2-year stretch, and a lot of titles that start and stop. It's complicated. We do still have a lot to figure out.


My spec is that basically this is the equivelant of Buffy and Angel being merged back together.

Buffy and Angel will be the two main monthly books under the season 9 banner and will run the full two years.Surrounding them will be various miniseries,maxiseries and One-Shots focusing on other characters at times,other groups and special situations.But the whole thing telling the large season 9 story.

Buffy and Angel will be telling the core season 9 story with the minis,maxis,and one offs spinning out and into it.

Very much like how DC and Marvel do their big event stories.

And floating back and forth of characters between the monthly series as well as the various tie-in stories.

Scott's comments about Angel and Spike's roles in Buffy season 9 in his Buffyfest and Slayalive reviews around Comic Con make more sense now in light of the recent news yesterday and today.It's why he's been so vague on how much Angel and Spike will be in season 9.

That's been my speculation for the last week or so and I think this new interview with Scott at Buffyfest confirms I'm on the right track.

4)We may be seeing the end of the Buffyverse.All of this is making me feel like Buffy Season 9 may be the swan song for the verse.We know that Season 8 has been moving us to the Fray setting and the vibe I'm getting now with the latest news is that the two year long Buffy Season 9 will be the final chapter.The end game.And this is why Joss feels it's so important to bring Buffy and Angel back under one roof.So Joss can tell that slam bang giant Buffy/Angel finish with both casts.Buffy Season 8 was the lead in,the transition to this.What I think we are getting with Buffy Season 9 is that big Buffy/Angel big screen finish movie uniting both casts for one large story.But we actually are getting it in comic book form.

This is all speculation ofcourse.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2010-08-20 08:55 ]
How. Will. Joss. Do. This.

He couldn't find the time to write the finale of a story he's been planning on finishing for four years. And now he's going to be overseeing Buffy, Angel, and other titles? While directing and promoting The Avengers.

Right. Also, Amy Acker is my loveslave and she says "hi" to you all.
Dark Horse has got to be expanding their creative team for this. Considering how large in scope this story sounds, besides needing an army of writers and artists, they desperately will need continuity editors to make sure everything is lining up (like the assistants for TV shows and film who make sure every little detail matches up before the camera rolls).

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 08:50 ]
Yeah, because I seem to remember in one issue, it was a plot point that Fray didn't know what "brake" meant... when in the previous issue, she told her sister to break. If that kind of error can happen when there is one title, then I shudder to think what's gonna go down with two (three?) (four?).
Let's not forget the werewolf Monroe that had his throat brutally ripped out, was described as a martyr by Bay (which traditionally means one died for the cause), then miraculously reappeared before the beginning of the battle in Retreat.

Continuity errors: Shut It Down.
Joss is doing Avengers. There's no Tim or Marti or Greenwalt. I think this could be incredibly awesome, but, um, creative oversight someone? Please?
Kaan: Every Angel related announcement they ever made. This, beyond obviously. Yes. He forgot to take it out of a letter. Um. Huh? The leakage of Angel as Twilight. Even before DH was working on getting ANGEL back, there was a lot of unsavory comments made about IDW that have been since apologized for, but are called to the front of my memory when stuff like this keeps happening.

What Angel related announcements? Except for the Twilight leakage, which was not Scott's fault but someone in DH marketing IIRC, there hasn't been any Angel announcements by Scott. Unless you mean when he said that Angel will be showing up in S9, which, if you consider the timeline, DH would have already known they had the licence back.

As to the "unsavory comments" I wont comment on because A) I have not seen/read them and B) IDW must not put any emphasize on them either if they are still willing to work with Scott/DH.

I get that you know some of the people at IDW and feel like you have to defend them or something, but the management team there has made a decision to not continue ANGEL comics (either because Joss/DH convinced FOX not to negotiate with IDW or IDW chose not to bid higher than DH on the licence. It's all just money to FOX). They've known about this for some time now. It may have something to do with why Willingham disappeared so suddenly.

IDW is a company. DH is a rival company. The only reason they have to co-ordinate with each other is for the fans' benefit. But this concept of DH being this giant, big bully that goes out of their way to undermine IDW is ludicrous. The image of some behemoth company swooping down and taking tiny IDW's toys away from them is laughable.

This DH vs. IDW, Scott vs. Chris thing is stupid, and I'm sure the only people who even think of the two persons/companies at the same time are fans.

I get your worry about Angel reverting back to a support character at DH. I don't want that to happen either, but I'm also looking forward to Angel characters finally interacting with Buffy characters. That has me really pumped. Willow vs. Illyria, anyone?

I hope the continuity errors will be minimized by the appointment of a single writer to each books/series. This "new writer every four issues" thing blows.

As to Joss involvement, or lack thereof, it is a worry. But S9 launches at the end of 2011 right? The Avengers is filming next February. That mean that when S9 rolls around Joss should be in post-production on the film, right? That's how it works? But yeah, for me: No Joss = No point.
My main concern also, WilliamTheB. (Will? Willy? WtB? You need a nickname STAT. Your name is way too long for my lazy fingers and I need to devote all my energy to my epic length posts. Never you worry--I'm gonna fix it for you.)

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-20 09:12 ]
How about WmtB? I've always liked Wm. as an abbr. for William.

And yes, the Munroe mistake! Gah! It's canon that Oz lies for no reason now! Or--better!--I expect that a future issue will reveal that Munroe is actually a super-common name for werewolves, and this Munroe was a different one than the one that got killed. Maybe in season 9 there will be one comic line devoted entirely to fixing previous easily-fixed continuity mistakes! :D

I snark, but I liked the Riley one-shot and am pretty excited about Last Gleaming. I just hope that season 9 doesn't get everyone stretched too thin.
"But this concept of DH being this giant, big bully that goes out of their way to undermine IDW is ludicrous. The image of some behemoth company swooping down and taking tiny IDW's toys away from them is laughable."

Um.

I don't think anyone thinks the way that you're describing. No one thinks DH is some behemoth, because they're not. They're not that much bigger than IDW, and Angel is not a little toy. I don't know where you got the idea that that's what people are saying. I'm 100% not. Because *no one* thinks that.

The only reason it sounds laughable is because you're purposely making it sound that way. I simply said that DH have blindsided IDW as far as announcements go and are that Scott is prone to awkwardly and "accidentally" leak stuff and make some odd comments. You're adding all the weird arch stuff to make the rest of it sound silly for some reason that I don't get... because, at the core of this, most of the stuff I'm actually worried about is stuff that YOU, good sir, are worried about as well.
Except I still feel like Riley's return to Season 8 holds no real plot relevance. What did he do as double agent guy? Why was he needed? Why was it absolutely necessary that Riley return or was it simply that Riley must return and so he did? At least Angel had the amulet to drop off in Chosen. With Riley, his function as double agent was all hat, no cattle. I thought that critique was why we were getting a Riley one-shot, but it appears Riley's double agent status is still a bit toothless. Sure, Riley/Sam and Angel/Buffy parallels abound, but I was hoping for some plot relevance to make his return essential. When you introduce a secret agent, you expect him to do secret agenty things.

Billy Boy? Bobarino? For some reason the m in Wm reminds me of M'fasnik like mmm cookies.
This could be so very interesting. And at least two comics a month? Sign me up.

Did anyone else also read into his last comment that Spike is toast?
Mitholas, he's poking fun at all the fans who think he's out to assassinate Spike. Character assassination, specifically.
When England and Scotland joined up, they didn't call it England because the country was more well-known and powerful, did they?

Possibly a poor example seeing as many people do indeed use the name 'England' to refer to the entire UK much to the annoyance of the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.

Mitholas, he's poking fun at all the fans who think he's out to assassinate Spike. Character assassination, specifically.

Mocking! What an excellent plan to bring said fans around.
Possibly a poor example seeing as many people do indeed use the name 'England' to refer to the entire UK much to the annoyance of the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish.


Precisely the point. It's annoying when it's done that way. But that doesn't change the fact that a new name was in fact forged to describe a new union.

Mocking! What an excellent plan to bring said fans around.


Well, when Allie apologized and self-flagellated it wasn't good enough. And considering the bashing levels directed his way (that do in fact crossover into personal attacks), his having a sense of humor about it hardly seems like something to get worked up over. Joss jokes about killing characters all the time. *shrugs*
Creative overseer: Jane Espenson and/or Brian Lynch. It would be amazing if Joss could explain his vision to them and they could execute it. Both have proven time and again that they're more than capable in this universe. I also second the need for continuity editors. I shutter to think of the errors that could crop up over so many different titles/writers/artists. It might become a little like Charmed.
I'll admit I've never seen a Scott Allie apology, but I don't frequent many of the comic boards so maybe that's why.
I think this is great I have to say, I'm a big fan of Scott Allie (even if he stuffs up a bit, but that's kinda humany) and Dark Horse in general. As a regular Marvel universe reader(I'm on about 4 books a month) I'm excited that they'll treat the Buffyverse in the same way. Events in one book should affect the other as they're the same 'verse. More comics to buy is not so good for my wallet, but the idea that we get 4 part stories spinning out of main events, and a linked up universe. I mean, just imagine if we had a Brian K Vaughan, Faith run in the middle of a larger story. Or a Lynch Spike story coming out of the other stuff. HAPPY TIMES.
I think I've just lowered my expectations. I was annoyed in Retreat that Riley's double-agent-ness didn't mean anything. But by now I'm over it. This isn't to say that you should be. I agree it's a flaw in the text. I would love it if Riley's double agent-ness meant something to the plot. But I liked the exploration of Riley trying to do the right thing by Buffy, Sam, his soul, the world and the contrast to Angel. It's a small story, doesn't really change the big picture, but I enjoyed it.

You can do Billy if you want (but no boy please!).
Careful... Emmie is notorious for shortening names. You give her "Billy" and she'll call you "BB" instead. I gave her "Xian", and I'm now "Xi". :P
@patxshand:

I don't think anyone thinks the way that you're describing. No one thinks DH is some behemoth, because they're not. They're not that much bigger than IDW, and Angel is not a little toy. I don't know where you got the idea that that's what people are saying. I'm 100% not. Because *no one* thinks that.

No, most don't believe that DH is some behemoth compared to IDW. Loose wording on my part. Thats not what I meant. I meant that they are acting like DH is like some behemoth company that has the power to just swooped down and grab the Angel licence away from IDW without any knowledge from IDW. As if IDW didn't have a chance to top DH's bid for the licence with FOX. Being 'blindsided' to me means: Catch (someone) unprepared; attack from an unexpected position. (Thanks Google). To attack someone means to have intent. On this occasion IDW were 'somewhat' blindsided by a human mistake. And the outcome of that mistake was the fact that information they already knew about, got leaked earlier than they would have preferred. Information a rival company (who had every right to announce it as soon as they won the licence) kept quiet about out of consideration to IDW. They just didn't want fans to know this early they would no longer be publishing Angel as of mid 2011. Again, accidents happen. I can guarantee that if this leak came from any other source the response would be different. The same outcome however.


The only reason it sounds laughable is because you're purposely making it sound that way. I simply said that DH have blindsided IDW as far as announcements go and are that Scott is prone to awkwardly and "accidentally" leak stuff and make some odd comments.

And I asked you for some examples of Scott 'blindsiding' IDW in the past, at which you answered and then I again asked you to clarify your answer because I'm still yet to see another instance of Scott 'blindsiding' IDW. Especially if you believe he has done these things on purpose, as you imply with "accidentally". And so the circle continues.


You're adding all the weird arch stuff to make the rest of it sound silly for some reason that I don't get... because, at the core of this, most of the stuff I'm actually worried about is stuff that YOU, good sir, are worried about as well.

I can delete those two sentences from my looong (for me at least; I don't know how people like Emmie or Kris do it ;)) post if you want. It was a small part of my comment.

And reading your comments over the five or so threads about this subject just here on Whedonesque (whew), it seems clear that what you are mostly upset about is that the people you know/like/are friends with will no longer be writing Angel. A valid reason to be upset about their 'demise' for sure, but I will wait to see how the Angel title fairs under DH/Joss in about 18 months time before decrying this move as the "worst possible thing ever!" Even though I haven't liked the IDW stuff, even AtF, so any move is a plus for me.

Although, now that it seems the IDW stuff is gonna be made canon, I guess I'll have to go back and buy all their trades.
How early do the comics go to print? Because if Allie wrote that editorial, forgot, then afterwards agreed with Chris to save the news for later then itís just an honest mistake. These things happen, they happened today in Ryallís press release when he accidentally mentioned Spikeís crew being ďalien bugsĒ and Issue #36 hasnít even come out yet. Iím guessing he wrote that press release sometime ago and he forgot to edit that info out when having to post it early. I really doubt thereís any malicious intent behind it or even that it effects things all that much.

I love that the Buffyverse is changing formats like this and Iím very excited for ďseason 9.Ē Thereís so many interesting story possibilities by having the characters under the same roof again. Characters who have never met can finally interact (Buffy/Illyria, Xander/Gunn, Buffy/Connor!) and Buffy can appear in and Ats book and vice versa. Iíve always loved the crossovers in the televised seasons so as long as they donít overdo it, it should be great.

Oh, and kudos to Scott for coming up with the idea to have Whistler in the story. Overall his appearance seems to have went down very well with the fans. I also think this was Janeís best issue and loved the depth in her writing.
The early Marvel Universe comparison sounds interesting. Marvel crossovers these days are fairly commonplace. It's more unusual NOT to see Spider-Man, Wolverine or Deadpool pop up in some other random title. Back in the early days of the MU though, character crossovers were big events.

I'm already looking forward to seeing Willow and Spike back together in the Spike ongoing (well, kinda ongoing, it now seems) but it's going to be more interesting to see character combinations that we haven't seen before. What will Buffy make of Illyria? Dawn and Connor? Gunn and Xander? Should be fun to see.

"Well, when Allie apologized and self-flagellated it wasn't good enough. And considering the bashing levels directed his way (that do in fact crossover into personal attacks), his having a sense of humor about it hardly seems like something to get worked up over. Joss jokes about killing characters all the time. *shrugs*"

The bashing that Allie gets is kinda ridiculous. I think people forget sometimes that he a) does not eat babies, b) has never once been involved in starting any form of holocaust and c) doesn't own a single Justin Bieber cd. Honestly, the guy makes Joe Quesada feel loved by the internet.
And honestly, if Scott does dislike Spike (or any other character), it's his prerogative and none of our business. He's professional enough to divorce his own fan-based opinion from the work he does as an editor.
This is just wonderful news and something that I have been hoping to see for a LONG time. Having Buffy and Angel under the same roof again will be fantanstic.
Always enjoy Scott A's persepective and couldn't disagree more with all the nay saying but I guess that's what nay sayers do...nay say, lol. Glad it hasn't broken his stride one little bit.

I vote for leaving the titles just as they are, with the leads. Buffy and Angel. :) Not that we get a vote, Joss will do what he wants, rightfully so.
The only question that remains now is what about Spike and his series? Will Joss leave him at IDW with Brian and allow cross-overs?
Not worried about Angel, DH already showed the character great love when they had him prior to IDW getting the license. As for the character itself, i don't consider him a hero anymore and as such have no interest in reading about his story. Twilight for me marks the end of this praticular character. I am interested however in Spike's story and what will happen now. It took IDW 5 years before they finally gave Spike an ongoing series. I'm really hoping that DH won't make the same mistakes IDW did with this praticular character which is in some way always making Spike's(feeling less then him,jealous,acting as if he's the golden boy that can do no wrong and always has to measure up to,ect.) story about Angel, as a Spike fan this is incredibly frustrating. Hopefully now that DH gets a second chance, they will make clear different characters. Have Angel be Angel and Spike being Spike instead of Angel2.0 or Angel's idiotic sidekick.

Great hearing Scott joke around with that final Spike question but i do hope he will give the Spike fans a more final word on Spike's fate. It could be that they will be testing the grounds with the multiple comics they have coming out at the same time and Buffy perhaps being the only real ongoing. The Spike and Angel series will perhaps get a sort of test runs to see if the sales are enough to warrent an ongoing.

I don't feel bad for IDW, as Ryall said, this is just the nature of the biz. Licenses come and go. And really buying the license back is just the easy part. Providing good and succesful stories will be the hard part.
And now we can have Spike/Fray
And Gunn/Faith. And Lorne/Satsu. And George/Clem.

The possibilities are endless.
Is as it is I guess. I'm bit tired of promises of future grandness. Would be cool to have comic that actually is worth the paper it's printed on.

I'll sit out S8 I think to see how it finishes, but after that I think I'll leave the comics be comics and let fandom call me, should something good come out.

There's a reason why I usually don't buy tv-merchandise comics.
In other worlds, in other times, a mistake as egregious as the one Allie admits to- leaking information about a business deal in advance of an agreed-upon time (kaan- you cannot know that they had every right to release the information, since I would assume that their contract would specify when they could)- would be cause for firing or maybe a lawsuit. That is not a dumb mistake; that is a major FU. For me, this is the deal killer to the comic series; as of today, I am ending my subscription. I have no interest in a "Buffy Universe" like that of Marvel, no wish to see Illyria in a Buffy comic, for example, no desire for crossover- this is terrible coda to a once might cultural phenomenon. Comics killed the television star.
Just for clarity, it has never been suggested there was a contract between DH and IDW over release of information. It was an informal verbal agreement, and I think Scott forgot. These things happen.

Also, great interview buffyfest. (And for side note, I was stood right next to you in the line to JJ and Joss at Comic-Con I believe).
Only just read the news. So I've not had time to really delve into reactions, but I'm trepidatious about all of this.

Although glad that IDW won't mangle the brand further with graspless writers, Angel as a character and series need to stay far away from Slayertown. I've not read past Retreat in S8 so don't know how they've handled Angel... but, oh god!

Did I read Whistler's name in there? That Buffy S3 throwback? My fanboy juices are boiling... *calm down*. Whistler's time has come and gone, Angel got a man, his name was Doyle(!) and he is mourned.

Angel was a singular entity for much longer long then he was Buffy's pedo beau. He grew, became his own man, had a kid. Which reminds me,
"Hey Buff this is my son, he's a Chosen One like you, he's well adjusted now is and much much closer to your age then I."

*Ok, still not calm, get with the calm you douchebag*...

Oh they won't know how to write him... And Scott Allie hates Spike... and the banner blanket "canon" word...

Where's Brian Lynch? WHERE'S BRIAN LYNCH... he'll save me.... (oh I love that man)

-EDIT-
Wow- I apologise to anyone who reads that nerd bile. Just jumped right out of me, couldn't stop it.

[ edited by Thuddles on 2010-08-20 13:30 ]
kaan- you cannot know that they had every right to release the information, since I would assume that their contract would specify when they could

Buffyfest: Was there a particular reason this wasn't announced at San Diego Comic Con?

Scott Allie: Yeah. Me promising Chris Ryall we'd wait until later in the year. That was the specific reason it was not announced at San Diego.

If you translate that into "we were under contract not to announce it until (x) date" so be it.

I'm just taking my cue from IDW on this one. If this was any kind of big deal or situation with them, then we'd either be hearing the lawyers marching or, more probably, hearing nothing at all from either side.

Or what gossi said.
no desire for crossover


Didn't you like the numerous crossovers when the shows were on the air, or even when Spike crossed over onto Angel season 5?
I doubt it was a legal matter but its still crappy that something this important is allowed to 'just slip out' despite arrangements having been agreed. After the mess with the Twilight reveal you'd think Dark Horse would try a bit harder but obviously not.
Re creative supervision of the comic - THE AVENGERS production dates are Feb til April I think. Obviously there's pre and post production during 2011, but it should be possible to wrap around that.
I decided to wait until an announcement like this to comment.

I love that IDW dd take on Angel and for the most part they treated it well. Although Armstrong's stuff was awful and Willingham was amistake, ATF was fantastic - Brian Lynch really understood the chracters and I'm really looking forward to the Spike series.

I think this move to Dark Horse will be good - it'll be great to have evrything under one roof again, to have Buffy and Angel's stories feel like they're taking place in one Universe again. Sure, Angel's story will tie in with Buffy's, he will be used to service her story but it doesn't mean that's all he'll be. Angel was given a spin-off so he'd have a chance to grow and become a character in his own right. And he did that. Angel found a purpose and was able to hold his own. I see no reason why that can't continue, just alongside Buffy. The way I see it, Angel started off on 'Buffy' so it seems fitting that their stories should end together and it doesn't have to diminish Angel's independence as a character.

It would be interesting to have some Angel/Buffy characters interact too. The only niggly thing is that the tone of BtVS and AtS has always been quite different (though Angel S5 became more Buffy-ish), so I'm not sure how much crossover would be good. Maybe limited crossover of characters?
More importantly, whose unappreciated side-kick does Spike get to be at DH in 2011?
Scott Allie's - they are going to hang around and get pissed - it's gonna be great! Or you could write fanfic where he's YOUR VERY OWN unappreciated sidekick. That would certainly be fictional to those of us who've followed his arc as one of the greatest flawed heroes in the history of story :).

Mocking! What an excellent plan to bring said fans around.


Well, to be blunt, he's tried other methods in the past, but people who connect to a certain character don't always behave rationally when it comes to said character, so... in any case he's mocking the issue not the fans, IMO. He's trying to have a sense of humor about it after being called atrocious names by people over perceived slights for a long time. It was a mistake for him to ever admit to liking Angel, though as someone who is perceived to have sway over the direction of the story. Maybe he didn't realize that this fandom can go for 300+ posts on nothing :). And, yes, I proudly include myself when I say that.

Whoa, Thuddles, rein it in :). Doyle's gone and we miss him, but Whistler up and disappearing with little follow up is a dangling thread waiting to be woven back in.

Gossi - the Buffyfest folks are very cool, got to have dinner with them once.

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2010-08-20 14:31 ]
I said this before, and will again -- the notion that Angel or Spike or anyone else will be relegated to supporting roles or sidekick status because they have books published by the same company as the "Buffy" book is as sensible and coherent as the notion that Angel would be relegated to a supporting role on his own show because it is carried on the same network as "Buffy".

Which, as I recall, it was for two years.

See what I did?

I'd be the first in line to say that they all end up supporting Buffy on her book, just like they do on her show, just like they would have if Buffy had been an option for Season 5 appearances on "Angel". But that won't change because Dark Horse got the license, it will never change. It's the nature of the characters themselves; Buffy will always pull focus. I was giving this as a reason it was for the best she wasn't going to appear in "Angel: After the Fall" -- when "Angel" was all IDW and there was no reason to think it wouldn't be for a long time. Because, no matter who is publishing or broadcasting, Buffy will be the star. Suggesting that's an effect that will be created by Dark Horse getting the "Angel" rights is pure strawman.

And it's not a measure of disrespect to Angel or the "Angel" characters or their credibility if Dark Horse intends to market their titles under a general "Buffy" flag (my mental picture for something like this are how Superman books would have the shield with a number to know where each title goes in sequence as you read the story, or how multi-title events have a banner at the top of each issue). At least, it's not a measure of disrespect unless the term "Buffyverse" itself is -- y'know, the term that has defined this entire fandom for more than a decade, including every episode and issue of "Angel"?

I do agree, though, "Season 9" no longer seems like an adequate title to really reflect a multi-title ongoing Buffyverse.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-20 14:12 ]
Dana, nothing's been confirmed yet as to what the Buffyverse landscape will look like when Buffy Season 9 rolls around. Allie gave a tiny bit of info (citing early Marvel, where crossovers weren't a constant, annual--or more frequent--event, but infrequent and special when they happened, the same as they were with the rare crossovers of plots and characters on the Buffyverse TV shows). From there, fans have speculated. There's no guarantee yet that the crossing over of characters and plotlines will be constant (though you've said you didn't watch past Angel Season 3 and weren't fond of that series, so I understand as almost strictly a Buffy fan why this development might be frustrating to you). But given that the Angel TV series did exist and was a part of the same world/universe as Buffy's, it only makes sense that supporting characters would eventually meet and epic, world-threatening events would eventually draw in both casts of characters. The shows kept the universe pretty consistent (nothing in Angel contradicted anything established/happening in Buffy, and vice versa), so this publisher switch is reassuring for those of us who were worried (or already convinced) that that delicate balance had been upset or destroyed. The two titles further meshing (whether occasionally or sharing a "season"-long overall arc/challenge) just feels like a natural extension of what might've (should've?) happened had the two shows continued on TV.

I understand how many wish Buffy would stay its own singular, untouched thing, full of metaphor and character development worthy of mining for high-minded literary papers and all...it should continue to be that...but it can and should (IMO) also follow its own internal logic, embrace its fantasy nature. Which means not ignoring its spin-off characters who're still alive and playing major roles in its universe elsewhere, who would necessarily come in contact with Buffy and crew, eventually.

I hope this doesn't get too big for its own good, I definitely share that worry. The more titles they have to juggle, the more room there is for messing up the cohesiveness of the franchise. While on TV, Mutant Enemy managed two shows (and the odd canon comic) very well. The continuity and consistency of tone/feel/character voice was lightyears better than what I experienced with Marvel's comics in the late `90s and early 2000s, which is why I won't be thrilled if things get so huge that I need to buy six titles a month just to get the full story. Having several titles (if it ever comes to that), will significantly increase the chances of fucking up (bad writing, continuity/timeline, character looks, etc). Already there've been a couple glaring plot inconsistencies in Season 8 (one that they attempted to explain away, the Warren thing, but it was handled clumsily. Fans came up with better fanwanks than the writers did. And I know it was Whedon's move, but bringing back Warren in the first place was questionable--though I'll reserve final judgement until we've seen what's done with him at the end of Season 8).

Speaking of the fans sometimes doing better with explanations than the professional scribes...I hope they hire someone who's a rabid fan of both shows (and the comics) to help Scott Allie in the editing department when this all expands. If they had just let a fan (a fan on staff--I'm not suggesting they leak scripts to select online fans, at least not as a primary solution) comb through the scripts for "The Long Way Home" and "Retreat", maybe that individual would've given a deserved "Umm, hold on a moment--Joss/Jane, what about this?" and Warren and Munroe would've been fixed. More oversight means less slips through the cracks. I know there might not be room in the Dark Horse budget to create a job specifically for that(although to me it just sounds like having a second editor, but one who'd be tailored to overseeing this 'verse)...if that's the case, then yeah, maybe Allie might wanna entertain the idea of showing some of the SlayAlive staff the scripts ahead of time (if they're willing to be spoiled), or some other fan he trusts and who'd be willing to do it for free.

Glad this has happened, but hope Dark Horse doesn't go nuts with it and milk it to death. No spreading things too thin, please.

[ edited by Kris on 2010-08-20 14:33 ]
"Think early Marvel Universe"...oh, Scott. You know just what to say to make a girl's heart go thump. Never stop.

We're gonna see Whistler again!

Lol @ the last question. I want to see a comic in which Spike is ducking and running from homicidal writers and editors.
I said this before, and will again -- the notion that Angel or Spike or anyone else will be relegated to supporting roles or sidekick status because they have books published by the same company as the "Buffy" book is as sensible and coherent as the notion that Angel would be relegated to a supporting role on his own show because it is carried on the same network as "Buffy".


Except there was never a time that Angel the TV series was telling the same story as Buffy the TV series. In Angel season one, Angel Investigations did not go up against the Initiative, as Buffy was doing during her season four. In Angel season two Angel Investigations had nothing to do with the battle against Glory going on in Buffy. In season three they didn't fight Dark Willow and in season four they didn't fight the First. Yet now, Angel and his team will be part of the Buffy season nine story, instead of telling their own stories. It is in fact the definition of a supporting role: Angel and his cast are supporting the effort to tell Buffy's season nine story. Sure, maybe Spike will get to do something cool and maybe Illyria will get another one-shot. So what? They're still part of, and in service to, Buffy season nine, and fans of Angel's TV series may not be comfortable with that sea change in the character's status.
Lol @ the last question. I want to see a comic in which Spike is ducking and running from homicidal writers and editors.

Kairos | August 20, 14:21 CET


Jeanty's cover for #38 ?
HMG - you say that as if you know that the story being told in S9 isn't equally or moreso their story and that's just not something that we know yet. Being part of the same universe or overarching story doesn't by definition make you subordinate. There are lots of examples of co-equal crossover in the history of comics. You can even -gasp- tell individual stories within the confines of a larger story/arc/universe and have it add resonance to both. I realize that we like to picnic (Agh! Bees!!!!), but let's try to relax a little until there is something to worry about. He talked about there being crossover and he talked about some characters having their own books for the duration of S9 and some beyond. Again, we're assuming some sea change when we don't know for sure. There's plenty of time for panic later. Not saying that it definitely won't play out as Angel characters subordinate to the Buffy story, just saying that it would be nice if we could put away our Jump to Conclusions MatTM for a bit.

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2010-08-20 14:41 ]
And yet, as Season 7 of "Buffy" and Season 4 of "Angel" were unfolding and probably more than half of the audience thought there was a concurrent storyline to them -- the First, the Beast -- I can't remember a single discussion talking about how this apparent concurrence was diminishing Angel or the characters on it.

It doesn't matter that the objective fact was the stories weren't related, because all we're talking about here is perception -- the perception of the significance of the characters and their storyline. If that perception was going to actually be effected by them sharing a storyline with "Buffy", it would have effected it then, when people perceived that was what was going on.

I think of this as pretty much a strawman argument -- "Angel" will be in a book called "Angel". That is, very literally, the ONLY reason to get the license from IDW, because that's pretty much the biggest thing they couldn't do with Angel already at Dark Horse under the "Buffy" license. There should be no concern that the title character of a book is going to spend that book having their life examined entirely in terms of how it affects some other character in another book.

This isn't speculation or theory -- it's actual and provable. If you go back through some of DC's big multi-title storylines, like "Death and Return of Superman" and "Knightfall"/"Knightsquest"/"KnightsEnd" or "Batman: Contagion", etc., where an issue of "Supergirl" plays into the story, or "Catwoman", or "Nightwing", the book was still very much about and from the perspective of Supergirl, or Catwoman, or Nightwing.
The more I think about this, the more excited I get. This is going to be SO. AWESOME. (Can Connor and Dawn get together?) I just hope it doesn't mean it has to end soon....I mean, I know it has to end, and it should end, especially since Fray exists, but....still.
Just to add to what KoC said about Buffy Season 7/Angel Season 4 (and yeah, a ton of the fandom, myself included, was speculating that the First may've been pulling the strings at some points), even though the two shows' main story arcs didn't intersect that year, both shows acknowledged what was going on in the other. First it was one of the Scooby Gang (Xander, I'm pretty sure) pointing out the blacked out/sunblocked LA on TV, and then even more hugely, a woman in prison tried to kill Faith with a Bringer's (First Evil servant) knife. Faith helped Angel Investigations out a little, then went over to Buffy to help with the First issue. Neither series was overcome by the other and both complemented eachother beautifully, if only in small ways.

Maybe that's what it'll be like with both comics at Dark Horse, maybe it'll be a lot more intertwined (sounds like it). The argument that it's probably a bad thing for them to share an overarching plotline just because they didn't while they were on TV is kinda ludicrous (though it's personal preference, sure). Just because it hasn't happened yet in the franchise, doesn't mean it shouldn't. Doesn't mean it will automatically suck or devalue/diminish either single property. Awesome could result. Yep, the fans who only like Buffy or Angel, they're shit outta luck when crossovers happen (and even when crossovers aren't happening, when the reader's full appreciation of closed events is dependant on knowing what happened during those crossovers). I used to hate when I was only reading one comic book from a publisher (and this doesn't just happen to superheroes, happens to non-tights fantasy/sci-fi material as well), didn't care about the other characters, and then my one book got pulled into some big expensive crossover. So annoying. But that's the biz.
And yet, as Season 7 of "Buffy" and Season 4 of "Angel" were unfolding and probably more than half of the audience thought there was a concurrent storyline to them -- the First, the Beast -- I can't remember a single discussion talking about how this apparent concurrence was diminishing Angel or the characters on it.

It doesn't matter that the objective fact was the stories weren't related, because all we're talking about here is perception --


I'm not taking about perception. Fot me it's very concrete. I don't like Buffy season 8, and season 9 will be a continuation of it. Angel and his cast will be part of the season 9 story, instead of telling their own separate story.

This isn't speculation or theory -- it's actual and provable. If you go back through some of DC's big multi-title storylines, like "Death and Return of Superman" and "Knightfall"/"Knightsquest"/"KnightsEnd" or "Batman: Contagion", etc., where an issue of "Supergirl" plays into the story, or "Catwoman", or "Nightwing", the book was still very much about and from the perspective of Supergirl, or Catwoman, or Nightwing.


I really don't see how your idea of the upcoming status of Angel is "provable" based on how a separate comic company, telling superhero stories, handles their characters. But let's use your example anyway. Yes, in a massive comic company superhero "event" crossover, the books that play into the story--the Nightwings and the Supergirls of the shared universe--do indeed come at the overarching story from the perspective of their title characters. But what if the overarching story is terrible? There have been plenty of these major "event" stories that fans have hated, and plenty of times that fans have lamented the fact that their favorite characters' books have to suddenly be held in thrall to these bloated, shitty stories. Writers have had issues with it too. In fact, Joss has had issues with Marvel's own giant unending event stories of the past few years and in an interview he cited them, and the concurrent lack of freedom for writers who want to have their hands untied to actually write their own stories with the characters, as one of the reasons he stopped writing for Marvel.

At the end of the day this is a huge change for Angel--for the very first time since the character got his own show, he is being used to tell Buffy season arc stories, instead of his own separate stories. I don't appereciate that.
Angel and his cast will be part of the season 9 story, instead of telling their own separate story.


This actually is speculation and perception until it happens. Having said that, he is being used as part of the Buffy story to an extent he hasn't been since he began his own series, so I understand the apprehension, especially having endured many lengthy crossovers at the "Big Three" comics publishers.
What is actual and provable is that characters -- even once-established supporting characters (like Supergirl, Catwoman, Nightwing) can stand on their own two feet, even in a concurrent storyline with a character they supported, even if there is a banner heading on top of the book that refers to said character.

What's pretty much unfounded panic and speculation is that such proven success cannot and will not be duplicated in the standalone "Angel" title under the Dark Horse "Buffy" flag.

Honestly, "I don't like Buffy season 8" is the pillar of your entire position here. Everything pertaining to your assumption that "Season 9" will be bad (because let's barely even start on the ways in which that prediction does not logically follow from an assumption that "Season 8 is bad, therefore...". If it did, then every season ever would have to have been worse than the one before it) and that Angel and "Angel" characters and plots will be inherently subordinate to Buffy and "Buffy" characters and plots is the strawman.

Spike on "Angel" Season 5? Did he have no arc? Was he just a sideshow with no purpose? After all... "Buffy" character showing up on "Angel". AND, he was in point of fact once a sidekick of Angel. By the rationale being proposed for the insignificance awaiting Angel and company at Dark Horse, it follows that Spike should have likewise been insignificant and out of place in Season 5 of "Angel". Maybe there are people that feel that way, but I seriously doubt they'd find themselves in a majority.
What is actual and provable is that characters -- even once-established supporting characters (like Supergirl, Catwoman, Nightwing) can stand on their own two feet, even in a concurrent storyline with a character they supported, even if there is a banner heading on top of the book that refers to said character.


Kingofcretins, Angel isn't Nightwing and Dark Horse isn't DC. The fact that a crossover superhero event worked as a story for DC comics has absolutely zero bearing on whether or not a crossover Buffy/Angel event will work for Dark Horse. You're saying that sometimes superhero crossovers work, therefore this Buffy/Angel crossover could work, as if there is some sort of causal relationship. It's like saying oranges grow just fine in an orchard in Forida, therefore apples will grow just fine in an orchard in Beijing. I could say that sometimes crossovers don't work, therefore this Buffy/Angel crossover won't work. We would both be making nonsensical arguments.

What's pretty much unfounded panic and speculation is that such proven success cannot and will not be duplicated in the standalone "Angel" title under the Dark Horse "Buffy" flag.


And your assertion that such "proven success"--in superhero comics, published by a separate company--will be duplicated is unfounded speculation as well. Utterly unfounded, because as I've said, Buffy and Angel are not superheroes published by DC comics. They're a little more substantive than that, and they weren't originally created for the edification of children.

Honestly, "I don't like Buffy season 8" is the pillar of your entire position here. Everything pertaining to your assumption that "Season 9" will be bad (because let's barely even start on the ways in which that prediction does not logically follow from an assumption that "Season 8 is bad, therefore...".


Season 8 has given us Buffy as the universe's roofied sex goddess, flying around, making superhero quips, and banging Angel, the universe's roofied sex god--after he was responsible for the deaths of a few hundred of her people--as if he was the great love of her life, as if all the ways they have both moved on with their lives since Buffy season three had never happened, as if in fact Angel's TV series itself never happened. Unless season 9 doesn't actually have Buffy in it, or gives us a complete retcon, it does indeed logically follow, for me, that season 9 will be terrible. Because the utterly ridiculous--ridiculous to the point of parody--new status quo season 8 has just set up will be the template for season 9. Unless, like I said, it is retconned away.

Spike on "Angel" Season 5? Did he have no arc? Was he just a sideshow with no purpose? After all... "Buffy" character showing up on "Angel". AND, he was in point of fact once a sidekick of Angel. By the rationale being proposed for the insignificance awaiting Angel and company at Dark Horse, it follows that Spike should have likewise been insignificant and out of place in Season 5 of "Angel".


Kingofcretins, you have a strange way of arguing. It absolutely does not logically follow that because I think Angel and his gang will become subordinate to Buffy's season nine story, that therefore Spike was insignificant and out of place in Angel season 5. Different writers, different story, different circumstances, different time. Just because I think Angel may be about to be subsumed into Buffy's current storyline, it doesn't logically follow that I must therefore think every character who was ever regarded as a sidekick type on the show was then treated as one by the writers whenever they appeared. I am not talking about the TV show. I am not talking about DC Comics. I am not talking about Spike and I am not talking about Nightwing. Oranges in Florida have nothing to do with apples in Beijing. What I am saying is that in these upcoming Dark Horse season 9 comics, I believe Angel and his cast will be dragged into an ill-conceived Buffy story instead of telling their own story as they always did before, and that's a shame.

[ edited by Hellmouthguy on 2010-08-20 15:54 ]
More importantly, whose unappreciated side-kick does Spike get to be at DH in 2011?

Just had to say that that made me smile
I am super excited about this.....even though I loved After the Fall, and thought it captured the tone of AtS better than S8 did BTVS.
(I'll admit to not being an expert on the latter....I'm more of an 'Angel' than 'Buffy' fan and have yet to see every ep of BTVS. Yes, I know... shame on me!)

However, my money (and a place in my personal 'canon') is saved for people who can write in the specific voice of this 'verse, and IDW's main Angel title hasn't had that in awhile IMO. Not, in fact, since Brian Lynch, who I believe has stated that after his Spike run finishes he is done with the Buffyverse. (correct me if I'm wrong)

I really like the way the IDW team interact with the fans, as well as their passion (and their excellent hardcovers)....but in selecting Kelly Armstrong and then Bill Willingham to continue the Angel series, they have shaken my faith in their ability to select writers who can capture that aforementioned 'voice'. Despite their abilities in their own worlds, neither managed to mesh with this one. (I remember being puzzled at the selection of Willingham....as good as he is at plotting, his characterization through dialogue is not his strong suit, but IS a key element of the Whedonverse, for me, at any rate)

Over at Dark Horse, however, while I've not agreed with every plot choice that's been made (though I didn't on the shows, either), they have been using writers who DO capture the tone including, oh what's his name....Joss something?
I'm not that opposed to Angel as Twilight, though the handling of Angel in the Twilight arc left gaps we still have to fill re: his motivation and several acts of needless cruelty, like in Retreat. I liked the extra details from the Riley one-shot and am expecting more from 'Last Gleaming'....but most of all I believe that an Angel title at DH, with Joss' supervision, means that Angel fans are MORE likely to get a satisfactory, Angel-centric exploration of the issues thrown up this season than if the license had continued at IDW.

I'm also excited by crossover possibilities, particularly regarding characters from both gangs that have yet to meet!

A couple of caveats.....I would like Brian's work on Spike to continue at DH, if poss, and I would like the improved relations between Angel and Spike from AtF to be acknowledged.
Jesse said:

It might become a little like Charmed.

Were there so many continuity issues with Charmed?
I am *not* asserting a causal relationship between prior success and what Dark Horse will do. I *am* asserting that it is ridiculous to predict failure *in spite of* the track record in the industry which is success with this kind of venture. Merely saying "well Angel isn't Nightwing" isn't an argument. If it was, it wouldn't help you -- Angel is a far more fully drawn character going into this than Nightwing was. If Dick could hold up and have his book still be *his* book, I think Angel shouldn't have too much trouble.

Honestly, any long term problems Angel will have have much less to do with who publishes the book and more to do with the genocidal maniac who can psychologically abuse ex-girlfriends for their own good thing he's got going.

I am sorry that this worrying people, but there is a lot less to actually base that worry on than folk might think.
So... Angel will be reduced to Buffy's boyfriend and occasional enemy again? *shrugs*
Kaan- When you say that *that* is my only worry, I sort of have to wonder if you've been reading my posts.

WHAT I'VE SAID I'M WORRIED ABOUT
1. Joss not having time. He had to get Allie to co-write the final arc before "Avengers" even begins shooting. How does he plan to even have time to *look* at the two+ titles a month, much less exec produce, much less write?
2. Dark Horse's Buffy S8 lacked direction and had a huge stretch in the middle where the issues sucked. Unlike IDW's Angel, S8 has always had a clear beginning and a clear end, so it should have been a lot more focused. Nothing has been explained. Riley's significance is still unknown (what did he do?), Meltzer said that Angel chose Buffy over the world (which includes Connor) because of the "power of love" (huh?), and friggin' Jeph Loeb got the okay to write a one-shot. The editing wasn't great, with the aforementioned "brake" flub, and the dead--wait, no, he's alive! Monroe.
3. It seems, based on Allie's wording, that the ANGEL book will just be one of the titles running under BUFFY: SEASON NINE. That is depressing.

So yeah, it's a lot more than just the fact that people I like have been slighted and aren't writing the book anymore. It's the fact that they were the ones who knew how to build the ANGEL series and make it something special. They've messed up, for sure, but they know how to fix their errors. Aftermath has been fixed by killing Dez and retconning James (which retcons the *entire* plot), and Willingham was bumped mid-arc (check out the credits of #36) to get things back on the quality track.

IDW had miniseries after miniseries. Some people complained about it, that it was hard to keep track (I say, make a list), but I loved it. The characters had time and space to get very, very fleshed out.

And in response to the blindsided thing, I mentioned the leaking of this "accidentally" in the letters section, and the Twilight reveal. Not that Allie did that himself, but that it might've been courteous to approach at least Ryall and tell him that they're using the character *he* has the license for in a major, ambiguously villainous role in a different comic, which is considered canonical in the universe that both of them are players in. Ethics, is all. But that's an old story, and you probably don't agree.

Either way, yes, I'm worried about Dark Horse having Angel. To me, it belongs at IDW.
To be honest I find this so depressing. It seems like what little I still found intriguing about the comic was a misinterpretation.

I agree with the worries parxshand voiced, it all doesn't sound promising and it seems more and more that the comics contain absolutely no thing I loved about the show.
Since DH also carries the Firefly comics, why not call it Whedonverse and then keep Angel the heck away from the Buffy comics? He was more interesting on his own show anyway. I started watching Angel first. This stuff sounds regressive to me. People change. People move on.
"Kingofcretins, you have a strange way of arguing. It absolutely does not logically follow that because I think Angel and his gang will become subordinate to Buffy's season nine story, that therefore Spike was insignificant and out of place in Angel season 5. Different writers, different story, different circumstances, different time. Just because I think Angel may be about to be subsumed into Buffy's current storyline, it doesn't logically follow that I must therefore think every character who was ever regarded as a sidekick type on the show was then treated as one by the writers whenever they appeared. I am not talking about the TV show. I am not talking about DC Comics. I am not talking about Spike and I am not talking about Nightwing. Oranges in Florida have nothing to do with apples in Beijing. What I am saying is that in these upcoming Dark Horse season 9 comics, I believe Angel and his cast will be dragged into an ill-conceived Buffy story instead of telling their own story as they always did before, and that's a shame."

I think, Hellmouthguy, that KingofCretins (and he can correct me here if I'm wrong) isn't using these examples as 'proof', but more as comparisons. Obviously none of us know exactly how the Angel situation at Dark Horse will actually turn out but KoC is basically trying to illustrate why your slightly pessimistic predictions are no more likely than the idea that Angel and his team will be able to have just as much autonomy as a series at Dark Horse as they did at IDW. He's not saying that they definitely will, bit rather that there is no reason to believe that they won't, even under the Buffy Season 9 banner.

At least, that's what I'm reading.
Obviously none of us know


You've just said the magic words - now if only I had a prize to hand out!
You could give your heart.
Now that I'll be hiring Dark Horse to arrange surprise parties, did we ever get to the bottom of the Dollhouse reference? Was Scott referencing to the DVD comic book or an ongoing series?
Scott has sounded since Comic-Con like there'd be more Dollhouse, beyond the DVD comic, he's just never been specific about it.
"You've just said the magic words - now if only I had a prize to hand out!"

Seeing as how we have the Marvel Universe comparisons being thrown around by Dark Horse, can I have a No Prize? Never did get one of them from the House of Ideas. I'd settle for a Horse of Ideas one.
So season 9 goodness: Anyone remember the foilers or whatever they were for season 5 of Buffy/season 2 of Angel? Where the two casts mixed together to kick some seriously awesome ass?
Well now we can finally get something like that. Two casts we love, with open potential to interact.
There's a LOT of good that can come out of this. Connor finally being explained to the Scoobies (aside from Willow I guess). Wes being described in his transition, shocking the shit out of Buffy and crew, and all sorts of other huge stuff (Why hello Illyria).
I see no bad coming from this, at least in terms of story. Lie back and enjoy folks.
Pat, a few points I think are important here --

1) I think the branding thing is just not a reasonable thing to be upset about. It's no secret that culturally, the term "Buffy" already is and always has been inclusive of all thing "Angel" related. Whether WB, CW, IDW, or Dark Horse, that has never changed. So getting worked up over the formal exercise of co-branding all titles* under "Buffy Season 9"** feels a little gratuitous. I don't think it's held back or diminished the shows, or confused their fans, that "Law & Order" is in front of both "SVU" and "Criminal Intent".

2. Ryall's company never had "the" right to Angel, they had "a" right to Angel. The fact that Dark Horse never has once needed permission to use the character must reduce the offense of not having asked at least somewhat. Indeed, it's a little like what Riley and Sam talked about in the one-shot. What breach of ethics, to not ask permission to do that which you don't need permission for? I think it's more likely to sound condescending than kind. That said, the way Dark Horse has accounted for itself in terms of managing information and the public has been pretty embarassing. But there is a big distinction between doing a bad job and doing a bad faith job.

* Again, no reason to buy the rights if you aren't using the title. "Angel" will be the title, season 9 a banner, if that.

** Season 9 is a dumb name for this venture now anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if it changes. Season 8 was only called that to sell its canon status, they said they had wanted to call it 'Twilight'.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-20 18:31 ]
The creative team for Dark Horse's 'Angel' series has not yet been announced. IDW's run on the character is not considered 'cannon' like Buffy Season 8 is, because Joss Whedon didn't have direct involvement with the stories. Buffy Season 8 ...is meant to be an extension of the television show, so everything that happens in Season 8 is part of the original continuity. Once we bring back 'Angel', Dark Horse will start to unveil plans as to how we'll bring all the characters together for Buffy Season 9, again with direct input from Joss Whedon.

Like the earlier Buffy material we published, readers should enjoy IDW's 'Angel' series, but when looking to fit a Joss-approved timeline to the characters, Buffy Season 8 is the only true continuation of the television series.


Well... that sucks. Also, again not a really tactful comment. Way too arrogant.

Source: http://www.facebook.com/#!/posted.php?id=45430244790&share_id=138136499560786&comments=1#s138136499560786

[ edited by Allycat on 2010-08-20 19:22 ]
Who said that and where did they say it? As it's not in the interview that's linked to in this entry.
So again this is being viewed as part of Buffy season 9. Also no mention of After the Fall which Joss was involved with or any mention of the upcoming Spike series which will tie into season 8. I mean I get that they don't want to promote a rival company but again minus lots for tact or sensitivity.
Simon- I have never seen Angel S5. Nor S4, for that matter; I could not make it past the middle of third season. So the only crossover there could be is Angel showing up in Buffy S7. And that I did not much care about, since he was so unnecessary for the message and the show.

Again, I don't like this any more, and it has ceased to be fun and is instead a business. One that is bleeding fans.
@Simon it's from the DarkHorse facebook page (edited post for clarity)
Here is the link to the Facebook comment in question. It's actually a comment on the post by "Dark Horse," about halfway down.

Curiouser and curiouser...
I don't know who updates that facebook page but I doubt it's Scott since he has publicly sung a decidedly different tune.

Simon- I have never seen Angel S5. Nor S4, for that matter; I could not make it past the middle of third season.


You missed out on a great Willow appearance in S4. Fans said she was a more rounded character there than she was in Buffy season 7.


Again, I don't like this any more, and it has ceased to be fun and is instead a business. One that is bleeding fans.


I felt like that for years. 20th Century Fox sure do see us as a cash cow.

@Simon it's from the DarkHorse facebook page (edited post for clarity)


Yes I see it now, thanks. I would suspect some Dark Horse minion hasn't read the press releases properly and isn't in the loop regarding IDW's efforts. Also it's 'canon' not 'cannon'.
That's pretty much what I was thinking too, Simon. It's no secret that the fandom as a whole believes that to have been the case, up to now. That a non-Joss-involved Angel is in no way canon. From everything that is being stated now though, it seems like they intend to at least attempt to retro-canon the IDW run.

Even so, it's going to take a Joss written story that acknowledges events such as those that occured in Aftermath before most people will be willing to believe it.
You could give your heart.


It belongs to another, b!Xington!

Also it's 'canon' not 'cannon'.

Don't think I haven't conflated the two whilst perusing threads on the subject, however :).
Still, I can't believe that someone at the PR department (which I presume would run the Facebook page) is so dismissive of IDW's Angel. Are they forgetting that between 25% and 33% of DH's Buffy readers also like Angel?
Dark Horse has *always* been dismissive of IDW's Angel. I'm not surprised. Disgusted, of course, but not surprised.

Dark Horse really seems to have their stuff together. I'm glad they took the time to declare the work of other people to not be "cannon" while their editor seems to be saying the opposite. This is an utter mess. I wish I had the willpower to leave this fandom and ignore everything Dark Horse has ever published.
This is the first time a Dark Horse representative has said the IDW comics weren't canon. Of course, if canon continuation is determined by a story having "direct input" from Whedon for a "Joss-approved storyline", then IDW's After the Fall fits the bill, so whoever typed that reply at Dark Horse's Facebook missed that point entirely.

Damn, that's ballsy the way they phrased it. The Dark Horse DRAMA continues...

Also it's 'canon' not 'cannon'.


Considering the person posted the word as 'cannon' instead of just cannon, I think one can assume it was being said ironically (or at least entertain the possibility it was typed ironically). Like when Lynch wrote a joke about hating "official cannon" in one of his SPIKE books.
I know they're just a comic book company, and comics as a medium is rather on a shoestring, but geez--Dark Horse has the worst publicity department I have ever encountered, even in the comics field. Way to relegate all the previous Angel comics from IDW--a company Dark Horse is counting on to coordinate with their own season 9 efforts--to "Buffy fans don't need to bother buying them" status. Especially cutting in this era of the trade paperback reprints selling for years after the original issues have left the stands. But don't worry, Buffy fans--all those Angel trades IDW might be hoping to possibly make a profit on someday aren't anything you need to buy, because they don't count.

How many "mistakes" that are directly hurtful to IDW does this make on Dark Horse's part now? Did Chris Ryall insult someone's sister?

At this point I don't even see the real stake in it for IDW to coordinate with Dark Horse's season 9 plans. Why? To keep Joss happy? For what reason? They aren't getting the license back. In fact if they wrote the rest of their Angel stuff actively at odds with season 9, they might drum up some extra publicity and hence, business. Hell, they're losing the license, and Dark Horse's goodwill is of the "with friends like these, who needs enemies" variety, so why not go for broke--write an epic conclusion to the Angel stories in which Angel learns that everything after "The Gift" is the result of Buffy coming back wrong and missing her soul. I'd buy that.
These screw ups have got to stop. What was posted on Facebook was completely unprofessional and crass.
Yeah, I don't know the Facebook poster is thinking. Joss himself dubbed ATF canon: http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=110457

I can understand if they're going to disregard the rest of the series, as Joss didn't have any involvement in it. But it doesn't sound like that's what they're going to do. Otherwise, they're wasting a lot of energy and resources to "bridge the gap" to "ensure a seamless transition."

After ATF, many fans continued with the IDW series and continuity. I doubt Dark Horse will simply disregard all of that. But who knows?
I think trying to predict the next Dark Horse move is pretty impossible. They're all over the place.
Pat, someone who, if I am correct, actually has professional contact with Allie -- bitsy -- just raised doubts about the authenticity/accuracy of that facebook post. Why the breathless rush to take it at the worst possible interpretation of its word?

I stand by what I already have said -- there is no rational reason to do "transition" or "collaboration" or any of that if the point isn't for IDW's work to be considered canon. If it's not going to be, and I were running IDW, I would just go all out and AU the hell out of it and even kill off everyone.

But I don't think that's what's happening -- whoever updated that is probably just off message. The strongest language we have was the press release that invokes Joss' authority over the direction of this, and that direction was to bring these stories together, which by extension means to canonize them (otherwise, as vampmogs pointed out, they'd just ignore them completely).

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-20 20:26 ]
I imagine that statement on Dark Horse's Facebook will be reined in shortly.
Don't think I haven't conflated the two whilst perusing threads on the subject, however :).


I may amend our rules to say that whenever posters refer to canon in the Buffyverse comics, they have to use the prefix 'fuzzy' or 'complicated'.
I stand by what I already have said -- there is no rational reason to do "transition" or "collaboration" or any of that if the point isn't for IDW's work to be considered canon. If it's not going to be, and I were running IDW, I would just go all out and AU the hell out of it and even kill off everyone.


KingofCretins, we have finally reached agreement.

Aren't you worried now?

My Official IDW Angel Alternate Universe idea #1: Angel is somehow thrown back in time to the late 1990's, and he saves a girl's life from a band of vampires. Unfortunately for him, that girl was the Slayer who came before Buffy, and now that she has been saved, Buffy doesn't get called.
KING: I don't think the worst. I even said that Scott said something different. I simply agreed that the PR completely sucks and that they've messed up enough times that it's pretty gross.

As Wyndam said, "These screw ups have got to stop. What was posted on Facebook was completely unprofessional and crass" and as Hellmouthguy said, "How many "mistakes" that are directly hurtful to IDW does this make on Dark Horse's part now? Did Chris Ryall insult someone's sister?"

No way I believe that someone who can't even spell "canon" has any say of the status of a book that isn't even being published by them yet. But, based on the comments on FB that follow, other people believe and agree with it. It's not the validity of the statement, which is zero, it's the fact that such a statement was even made. The fact that all of this stuff has happened the way it has.
Although I understand many fans grievances with Season 8 (I've had quite a few myself) Ive never understood how someone can hate it overall, there were some GREAT arcs in there. But most importantly, some Buffy > no Buffy. Its just nice to "spend time with" these characters I love. Im happy DH has Angel back it means Joss will have more control over it. Now if only DH can convince Rob Thomas to do a Veronica Mars comic :)
Well things are both fuzzy and complicated. I don't think Dark Horse or IDW yet knows to what extent things will truly link up. My instinct is that efforts will be made in the final arc of the IDW comic to connect the dots. Whether or not Joss or anyone at DH will continue to reach out to IDW during this process is anyone's guess. The Spike comic has Joss's backing, though and I'm glad to see that.

Chris and Mariah will be answering some questions soon too. I suspect that will raise as many questions as it answers but, there you are. It's a quagmire. A wacky one. I don't suppose everyone could stop caring about canon and just enjoy the books based on their own merits, eh?
That post on Dark Horse's facebook is way off message.
Thank you, IDW, for introducing me to comics.
I don't suppose everyone could stop caring about canon and just enjoy the books based on their own merits, eh?


You say it like one precludes the other. I love Spike: Asylum. I don't think it's canon and will argue against the idea strongly. A story being good has nothing to do with it being canon--it's when people conflate the two that it becomes problematic.

But yes, it's a wacky quagmire that's quickly becoming a steaming pile. Sigh.
Oh, I don't mean that canon makes something good or not. I just want people to let the stories stand on their own two legs, succeed or fail based on their own merits. I've liked and hated things from both companies.

The reality is that some people buy the Season 8 stuff even when they hate it because they perceive it as "counting" and don't read the IDW stuff because it "doesn't count". If wishes were horses then people would just buy or not based on whether or not they liked the comics and leave it at that.
Personally, I just want to know one way or another. If the IDW series after ATF turns out to be non-canon then I'll be disappointed but it won't change how much I enjoyed it or mean that I throw out all the issues and hardbacks. I own most of the trades of the original Dark Horse Buffy run despite them never being considered canon.

So really for me it's just a matter of knowing for a fact what stories IDW published should now be considered an official part of the Buffyverse proper.
I can't really think of something sillier or more incongruous than announcing -- with mostly smiles -- a big collaboration, and for the next day to show that it's meaningless. I think someone screwed up and either faked something to stir stuff up, or is about to get canned.
Why should they be canned? DH publicity screw-ups seem to be a regular occurence and this seems no more egregious than the others.
Bracketing questions about whether the statement is tactful or not, how is it not quite simply true? IDW wrote stories independently of Joss for quite a while. I'm guessing they'll do their best to bring things into continuity, but pointing out that when there are inconsistencies, from their POV, Whedon-directed material trumps strikes me as just being honest. Do people here really want Whedon handcuffed by what IDW did, to the point where he has to bend his artistic vision around them? DH has said they are going to go for as much cohesion as possible. That's as generous as they can be under the circumstances. And as much cohesion as possible does not mean perfect continuity with respect to plot, much less perfect canonicity (in the sense of actually reflecting Joss's artistic vision as a whole).

The Spike project and the W&H Angel arc are different because those are being worked on in collaboration (as I understand it) in anticipation of the merger. Pending further announcements, I'd assume they are for the most part going to reflect Joss's vision for the story or at least bend in that direction.

Finally, for the record, Joss himself has made the distinction about what he supervises and what he doesn't -- leaving even AtF on the *other* side of the line. In the post Twangel
reveal interview with CBR he said you can't call AtF season 6 because unlike season 8 he's not executive producing it.
Well, whoever posted that pretty much drove a fist into the jewels of the goal of cooling fanrage. Canned might be overstating it in a down economy, but they should at least be sweating it a bit :)
But you just said that some of the IDW comics are canon because of collaboration so no the statement as given isn't actually true.
helcat, if you are replying to me, I didn't say they are 'canon', I said they are 'different' -- they probably will be much more easily read in continuity with the DH project and are being bent towards Joss's vision. They may be canon; I don't know. The statement that has everyone in an uproar is in a long thread of people wondering whether Aftermath and stuff like that is canon, so I assume it's directed to that concern
The statement on Facebook has 100% zero truth, with contradicting reports from Scott and Joss in the past, who I will happily listen to over some intern running a Facebook page for Dark Horse.
Joss is way too busy to decide what's going to fit and what isn't. Matter of fact, I bet he'd have a different answer to the canon question depending on the second you asked and what sort of mood he was in. The IDW stuff might get retconned, double retconned cross the sky... it might even start to look like a triple retcon. OH MY GOD!
Thanks for the link, QuoterGal. Entertaining article of truthy that really puts things in perspective.


Well, whoever posted that pretty much drove a fist into the jewels of the goal of cooling fanrage.


Bwah!
Wyndam -- tell me how it logically cannot be true? Do you think Joss has undertaken to modify his vision of the story to fit Kelly Armstrongs? Do you think he's going to change his understanding of Spike's character based on Willingham's take? Assuming Joss is sticking to his artistic vision, the IDW material has to have a looser relationship to the project that does reflect his vision. Let me know how you see that working. I see the original DH and IDW statements as being about an effort to get as much cohesion as possible. That's not the same thing as saying that Joss has to treat Aftermath with the same deference he'd give to, say, Chosen.
Angel After the Fall has been deemed canon by Joss so the statement that none of IDW's Angel output is canonical is false. I don't think you really need to go further than that.
Emmie, was that a good bwah or a bad bwah?
The Facebook message is a blanket statement claiming everything IDW has done with Angel as not canon. We know for a fact that After the Fall is and always will be canon. How does that not make the Facebook drivel false? I don't think anyone expects Joss to reference Aftermath or Dez or James, but we should expect Dark Horse to not contradict anything that IDW did.
I repeat, the statement in facebook comes very close to Joss's own words. AtF can't be called season 6 because unlike season 8 he didn't executive produce it. So if facebook guy is lying scumbag, so is Joss.

What's going on is different meanings of the word 'canon'. Will Joss try to not contradict IDW? Sure. (But if he has to make a move that contradicts it he's gonna). Is Joss going to enter into the artistic vision of Ryall and his gang and let that inform his? Really doubt it.
He didn't "executive produce" it because of the format of the story. He outlined it with Brian and deemed it canonical.
The good kind. ;-)
"The creative team for Dark Horse's 'Angel' series has not yet been announced. IDW's run on the character is not considered 'cannon' like Buffy Season 8 is, because Joss Whedon didn't have direct involvement with the stories."

versus

"I decided to hand him my concept for "Angel" Season 6. We don't want to call it "Season 6," of course, because I'm already doing that at Dark Horse, and we called that "Buffy Season 8" because I'm literally executive producing it, which is new for me in comics and a kind of weird title for comics, but it's exactly what I'm doing. I just didn't have time for that for "Angel" and IDW. I was as over-stretched as it is, and I was beginning to realize how much work "Buffy" was going to pull out of me. So I said to Brian, "We can't call this Season 6, but I can give you what we were going to do because I think it's a fun premise." Brian and I met a couple of times to discuss ideas. He wrote out a couple of outlines, and I tweaked them. And then I sort of sent him on his way."

Pat -- I know this is your very sacred cow, but Joss's statement says nothing about format. He didn't EP it because he didn't have time. He tweaked an outline and sent Lynch on his way. Josh and evil DH guy are describing the same thing. Canon has multiple meanings. It might be canon in one sense, but not in the same sense as season 8 as this statement makes clear. And this statement came out this year.
Canon now has multiple senses? Wow, I do like that Joss telling IDW what he intended for the future of Angel and still it means nothing.

Thankfully for me canon stopped when the TV show ended, I've never had any problems with that but in a world where season 8 is canon then I can't see how ATF isn't.
Canon has always had multiple senses. Why do you think people argue about it?

I make a distinction between a work Joss wants to claim full ownership of and one he is at pains to say cannot be seen the same way because of his substantially lower level of involvement. Doesn't mean you have to.
Brian has described, in depth, the process. He met with Joss, they exchanged e-mails, and worked out the story together... as Joss said above. Joss told him and IDW it was canonical, and has not refuted that. He's using television language in BUFFY because it's television format. An extended season. Executive producer applies, because that's what he's doing. Working with multiple writers, performing a writer/editor's duty.

ATF is one arc, so how would "executive producer" even apply? It doesn't. The only term that could have been used is co-plotter... which was what they used. How that calls the canonical status into question is beyond me. It quite simply *doesn't*.
I thought people argued about it because people disagreed what canon meant not that it could mean all those things at once. If canon can mean anything that anyone wants it to all at the same time then there'd be no reason to discuss it.
ATF couldn't be called 'season 6' for two key reasons. One: The format, which was vastly different from what Season 8 of Buffy has been. Two: Redundancy. Joss's words there make it clear that he didn't want to give Angel the same title (essentially) that he was giving Buffy. It would have been awkward.
After the Fall wasn't 'season 6' because it wasn't a 'season'. It was, as has been stated a few times, more like a set of TV movies. It wasn't large enough to be labeled as a season.
Much appreciated, Emmie :)

Maybe we're all looking at this wrong. Riddle: you're waiting for a train, a train that will take you far away -- wait, sorry.

There are two stories that are different, but only one is true. The stories will be made the same, but afterwards, they won't both be true. How is this possible?
In other news, DH "put the final touches" on The Shepherd's Tale yesterday.
CHRIS RYALL: "Well, look at it this way: Joss Whedon wanted to use Betta George in Angel: After the Fall. George was introduced in Spike: Asylum and appeared in Spike: Shadow Puppets and issues after After the Fall ended. Joss Whedon ended the "canon" argument right there. I trust Joss Whedon a lot more than I trust some intern who can't spell "canon" right. Nothing else needs to be said there.

Unless Joss Whedon himself was updating Dark horse's Facebook page and suddenly forgot how to write coherently or spell properly. But that seems like a far-fetched theory to me."
I'm of the opinion that ATF is canon, but if someone wants to put that part of the discussion to bed and do away with the need for opinions, then just provide a link to Joss saying that it's canon.

As for retro-actively canonising the rest of IDW's comics, I'd offer this quote (which I completely agree with):

Joss: "Canon is key, as is continuity. If you are massive nerd. Which I am. I believe there's a demarcation between the creation and ancillary creations by different people. I'm all for that stuff, just like fanfic, but I like to know what's there's an absolutely official story-so-far, especially when something changes mediums, which my stuff seems to do a lot."

I seriously do not believe that the guy who said that is going to canonise comics that he wasn't involved with.

There are other good reasons for having continuity between IDW and Dark Horse. Don't piss off the fans for one, but more importantly don't piss off Fox. If the comics don't line up some (or rather more) fans will reject the move and stop reading. The property is therefore worth less than it would have been. IDW will want to continue working with Fox after all and going down in some blaze of glory, killing off characters or whatever, would hardly go down well. Also if there is continuity, more Buffy fans will go back and read the IDW comics, even though they're not canon.

I don't really understand the upset on this particular issue. You can argue over a couple, but some of the IDW comics were clearly non-canon, so I don't see the problem with them remaining as such. How does that affect your enjoyment of them? Be upset over IDW losing the licence, sure, or over story-lines and characters not being continued, but non-canonisation? I don't get it.

I have been much more impressed by IDW than Dark Horse over this whole episode. Dark Horse really need to get their act together.
Ryall may wish to use future opportunities to raise the tone, IMO. Either we're upset about the level of professionalism, or we're shooting it out with Dark Horse's facebook guy or gal.

What I was teasing with my riddle was... neither story is true afterwards. All the canon talk is moot if the Buffyverse is getting a full copper repipe.
They took that comic off Facebook, so it is officially irrelevant.
Maggie, I found another quote in the same style from an old Joss interview with Geek Monthly back in October 2007.

What can you tell us about the Angel : After the Fall comic series ?

It came about because of Brian Lynch, the writer of the Spike mini-series, which I lovedÖ I sat him down and gave him an overview of what we were planning to do with Angelís sixth season, the sort of milieu. The story is different because we can go a lot further in comics, but we took the actual basic concept we were going to work with for the next season as our starting off point for the comic book. Itís not called Season 6 the way the Buffy comics were called Season 8, because Iím actually overseeing every single aspect of [the Buffy comic], while this is actually in Brianís hands. But it came from a bunch of stuff that we went through together, which is really fun, because we had a fine bunch of stuff planned.

Do you have any reservations about stepping on the final statement of the series ?

You know, I do and I donít. The final statement of the series means a great deal to meÖI had written the final statement in my head knowing that it would work just as well as a season ender as it would a series ender. I always did every season of every series that way. The only time I ever did a cliffhanger was when [Buffy] first moved to UPN and we had a two-year pick-up, so we knew we were coming back. But generally speaking, every season I expected to be cancelled, so every season finale was more or less the final statement I had to make on everything ever. And then it turned out to be that it really was the final statement. I had planned a Season 6, but obviously I knew [Angel was cancelled by the time we filmed it] or I would never have offed the characters that I did. But I had planned it, so I donít mind something coming after it. The people who donít want to accept the comic book donít have to, and the people who want more, they shall have it.

Yeah, that doesn't sound too good from Chris Ryall. Can we get a link for that - I'd like to see the context. It would be fine if it was just a fan posting, but I really rather not see it turn sour between IDW and Dark Horse. Makes you wonder about behind the scenes.

KoC: I don't see the problem of an "untrue" story leading into a "true" story. They're going to be made to link up, not to be the same story.
Whahuh? I think Ryall was almost *too* civil. He's been a gentleman thoughout.

It was taken from a forum post on the IDW board.
Wow, with friends like the PR hacks at DH, Chris Ryall and company don't need enemies. How much pee-in-the-pool is needed before one sees 'accidents' as 'intentions'?
The old comment on Dark Horse's Facebook has been removed and it now says:

Dark Horse Comics UPDATE: We've found the person who misspelt 'canon' earlier - he is being tortured, hung, re-tortured, hung upside-down, and parts scattered to the four corners of the globe. More on this story as it becomes available.

And doncha just love how 'cute' they are when acknowledging their little 'slips'; of course they aren't at fault.. they have puppy-dog eyes!
Ok, I see it now (it's here, halfway down). Not that the context adds much, but always worth checking.

Well, it seems like canon is a bit of a touchy subject based on that response. The idea that Betta George going from non-canon comics to a canon comic makes the non-canon comics canon, really doesn't work (as a coherent sentence ;). Worse though is that he tries to use Joss's name to show he's right. Joss has not said or implied that those comics are canon and for a professional to try to make that claim isn't on. I know the post on Dark Horse's Facebook page was provocative, but he should know better than "some intern".
How could anybody hate Spike???
Hi everyone, I just got off the phone with Scott. He said the Facebook comments in no way represent his or Dark Horse's point of view. He's got the day off, so that's why it was done without him knowing. When he did find out about the statements, they were immediately removed. Also, as we were talking, he ran down a list of all the ways in which he and Joss are working with IDW to sync up the stories.

Hope that helps clear some stuff up - Michelle
Time to start a betting pool on the next totally-unexpected-and-geez-aren't-we-embarrased release from DH that cuts IDW off at the knees. Given the recent flurry, I'm taking 72 hours. But I do love puppy-dog eyes. Probably too cynical for my own good and will now back out of this thread before my head explodes.
"He's got the day off, so that's why it was done without him knowing."

lol
Yeah, you guys are getting too cynical. Dark Horse making an incorrect statement and then having to withdraw it, makes Dark Horse look bad, not IDW.
Uh... NotaViking... that is actually what we are saying.
"He's got the day off, so that's why it was done without him knowing."

lol


He's at his son's pre-school graduation.
Uh. Okay?

Doesn't take away from how silly the statement is. Makes it sound like once he, the only responsible person at DH leaves the office (lol), it's... INTERNS GONE WIIIIILD!

It's just a funny thing to say.

[ edited by patxshand on 2010-08-21 00:59 ]
baxter: Unless I'm mistaken, you're saying that they're doing it on purpose and then pretending to apologise, in a successful effort to damage IDW - "cuts IDW off at the knees". I'm saying they're just a bit rubbish at PR. ;)
@patxshand:

Kaan- When you say that *that* is my only worry, I sort of have to wonder if you've been reading my posts.

I did not say it was your 'only' worry, I said it was may perception, from reading your multiple posts, that your are mostly upset because IDW folk wont be writing Angel anymore.

It's the fact that they were the ones who knew how to build the ANGEL series and make it something special. They've messed up, for sure, but they know how to fix their errors. Aftermath has been fixed by killing Dez and retconning James (which retcons the *entire* plot), and Willingham was bumped mid-arc (check out the credits of #36) to get things back on the quality track.

Well for many fans it wasn't 'something special', but thats beside the point. IDW had the licence. They lost it. Now DH has it. These things happen. It has nothing to do with it being a personal issue between DH and the writers/artists at IDW, or anything other than a business deal. (Except for maybe Joss who has a plan to wrap up his universe.)

Either way, yes, I'm worried about Dark Horse having Angel. To me, it belongs at IDW.

Well FOX own him, I guess, but to me Angel belongs to Joss and David, cause they the people who created him.

I wish I had the willpower to leave this fandom and ignore everything Dark Horse has ever published.

This is not the first time you have said you'll leave the fandom. What has DH or IDW and their business dealings have to do with fandom? Everything that has been going on in the last couple of days seems to be pretty on course for this fandom. If it wasn't this, it'd be something else that gets people riled up. "Nothing new under the sun."
And there's only one thing worse than the fandom getting riled up - if the fandom ever stop caring enough to get riled up.
Maybe we should line everybody up facing each other so we can rhythmically snap our fingers at each other in an intimidating manner. I mean FFS.
This is not a day that you take off, when your company has some 'splainin' to do and you have badly messed up- kid graduation notwithstanding (and I sincerely know how important those occasions are).
After the press releases yesterday, I disagree that there was any 'splainin' to do that was more important than being a dad. It's comic books, not troop deployment. I'm a pretty harsh critic of Dark Horse's and Scott Allie's PR blunders over the run of Season 8 -- even back to the kind of, IMO, snide dismissal of people who speculated that the 8.04 lip gloss reveal might have been a red herring -- and I really don't see any kind of dereliction by him taking a Friday off to be a father.
Totally agree. Of course he should take a day off to go to his son's graduation.
"It's comic books, not troop deployment."

There's a difference?

His family commitments obviously should be more important to him than holding back the tide of yet another Whedon fandom 'picnic'. Especially one that has been as blown out of all realistic proportion as this one has.
I'm not sure anyone in the thread has called into question whether or not the man should've gone to the graduation.
Heh. At this point, while I admit some of it is because there's a lot going on that I don't like in Season 8 right now, particularly how Angel is doing so many horrible things and the story appears to be treating it as justified or excusable, but at this point I'd almost love for them to announce that "Buffy Season 9" is basically JJ Abrams "Buffy Trek", we're getting a Buffyverse Zero Hour/Crisis on Infinite Earths, and we're going back to the top. Not because I actually want the canon reset, mind you, but because it slaps the respective Jets and Sharks right in the gob if neither house's series was actually relevant to the story that would come after it.

EDIT: Pat, see Dana's above post -- "This is not a day that you take off, when your company has some 'splainin' to do and you have badly messed up..."

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-21 01:57 ]
Nice idea, KoC! Or better yet, have Willow go nuts and lose control of her power, recreating the entire Buffyverse into her own ideal version of reality. The House of W.

Then at the end you could have Buffy force her to put things back to how they used to be, but in the process Willow decides that using the scythe to activate all the potentials around the world was a bad idea.

"No more slayers."
My comment was that it was a bad day to take off- and yes, I also said that I thought it was important for him to go to the graduation. But one thing is for sure; right now, DH looks bad. Period. This was handled poorly, and one thing grown-ups do is take care of things when they go wrong. Which they have. Gone wrong, that is, not taken care of things. In an era where the net allows for instantaneous spread of information and misinformation (how many Americans think President Obama is Muslim, for example), one cannot take time off when things are exploding- get to the graduation and then get home, and then take care of the problem you yourself helped create. In the immortal words of Sophie (and let's see who gets this reference) "That's grown up!"

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2010-08-21 02:10 ]
I think Darkhorse should do nothing and say nothing else and let the few people in the fandom that this issue matters to simply rage until they are raged out. This will completely blow over for all but about a dozen people within a week or two and be long forgotten. Sure it will be mentioned in snarky jest for years to come, but it won't actually affect the story, Darkhorse, or the fandom in the long run. I hope the fallible and well-intentioned human beings who work at Darkhorse don't take any of the bile personally. They certainly shouldn't.
Totally, very few people care about this. Which is why all the many threads concerning the matter have hundreds of comments over the course of two days.
There are really two groups of fans and I think each will be left with their own canon. One group is the "hard core fan group." those present included, who read the comics. Nombers? #33 - 36/72.86/45,446; #34 - 27/75.34/45,909; #35 - 33/76015/46,468. There are also the fans who are not a direct part of this fandom. Numbers? Somewhere between 5,000,000, and 919, 000. Of course averaging doesn't really help, bucause of syndication etc.. would it be fair to say that probably 2,000,000 or more watched Buffy regularly one way or another without becoming involved in fandom to a great degree? So without showing my math shortcomings, the first group is a small percentage of the second. I think that's why in the Buffy Panel, Joss said that he would be willing should a movie be possible in some dimension, he would be willing to forego the canon of the comics. Canon is a matter of perspective and a slippery fish. So if you like it, it can be canon, if you don't,ignore it until some now canon or maybe a retcon occurs. Kind of like the weather in Chicago, if you don't like it, wait till it changes.
Ah, but it seems to be the same small group of people making the comments. :) Carry on.
In fairness, how many unique posters in those various threads? Including the Whedonesque ones? I'm too lazy to count, but it's definitely not 180+ posters.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2010-08-21 02:35 ]
Obviously not, but if one bothers to read the reactions here, on Facebook, and on the various forums, it's fairly obvious that saying "very few people care" is off the mark.
IMO, things really aren't imploding. No more information needs to be given out at present time. Both sides have explained the fate of the license (i.e. it'll go back to Dark Horse). Simple as that.
Now, the nuances as to how the characters will be utilized, well, then, it's a year away before the first issue of "Season 9" (we'll need a new all-encompassing title soon, Dark Horse!), so I doubt all the details are fully ironed out. For one, if Dark Horse intends to NOT retcon IDW's run, they'll also need a better idea of where all the pieces will land in the near future. Hence, the meetings and phone calls between Scott and Chris (and the other creative forces of IDW).

So, why on earth would Scott have to consider missing his son's graduation (which, btw, has probably been planned for weeks now) when the fact of the matter is, the situation at hand is currently a matter of fan ire?

[ edited by wenxina on 2010-08-21 02:56 ]
Dana,

In other worlds, in other times, a mistake as egregious as the one Allie admits to- leaking information about a business deal in advance of an agreed-upon time (kaan- you cannot know that they had every right to release the information, since I would assume that their contract would specify when they could)- would be cause for firing or maybe a lawsuit. That is not a dumb mistake; that is a major FU. For me, this is the deal killer to the comic series; as of today, I am ending my subscription. I have no interest in a "Buffy Universe" like that of Marvel, no wish to see Illyria in a Buffy comic, for example, no desire for crossover- this is terrible coda to a once mighty cultural phenomenon. Comics killed the television star.


Welcome, sister :) .
cmbackshane, the fact that I count myself as one of the roughly 95% majority of Buffy fans who do not read the comics (skimming them in the shop without purchasing, and hating what I see--hence the lack of a purchase--doesn't really count in my mind as "reading the comics") is precisely the reason why I feel so comfortable in my assertion that the comics are not a valid part of the Buffy "canon", regardless of statements by Joss or whoever. For me, even if the comics were good, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel simply can't exist without the actors, who are just as important a piece of the Buffy puzzzle as Joss or any of the writers were. No Joss, no show; but if he had no actors there would also have been no show. And TV shows don't become comics. For me the comics are, at best, an adaptation. For me (and I keep saying "for me" because I want to make it clear I'm not making some blanket assertion about the definition of canon here; this is just my own personal definition), calling the comics canon is like calling the Buffy videogames canon. And in fact the videogames had much better stories than the comics, and even voice participation by some of the actors.

So, yeah: La-la-la-la-la-la-la, these comics aren't actually happening anyway.
Pretty sure Dana is not a "sister" .:)
A "sista" maybe, but not a sister.
Compared to the total audience as estimated by volume sales, it's an infinitesimal number of people. Now, the fact that these are the people who are so engaged that they interact with the pros, and therefore their feedback will weigh more than it would if all they had was a letter column, but at the end of the day, is it a big enough reaction to meaningfully affect business? Probably not.


Whoops! Tant pis <:( .

But one thing is for sure; right now, DH looks bad. Period. This was handled poorly, and one thing grown-ups do is take care of things when they go wrong. Which they have. Gone wrong, that is, not taken care of things.


Maybe he's preparing for a career in American journalism.
Respectfully, Dana5140, you absolutely take off a day for your kid's graduation. Those are moments you don't get back. Whereas there's bound to be another accidental leak soon, so those moments will always be back...

I kid about that second part but in all seriousness, Scott did exactly what he should have done today. I know emotions are high on all sides right now, but perspective, please.
Yeah, isn't there a long standing rule here at Whedonesque concerning playing the ball???
I think this is being blown way out of proportion. And cheers, Chris Ryall--perspective on this is most definitely needed.

The fact that the discussion has even moved to debating the Dark Horse editor's personal and professional life choices is a clear sign this has gone too far. Shut it down, folks.

Shut. It. Down.


This message brought to you by Liz Lemon.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-08-21 06:08 ]
Chris Ryall: Hey, is that the Chris Ryall? Why aren't you V.I.P. purple? Regardless, awesome, and that was very classy, re: Scott!
Dana said:
"In the immortal words of Sophie (and let's see who gets this reference) "That's grown up!""

Is it from Season 1 of In Treatment ? Not sure, only saw the season once, but it'd make sense given what a huge fan you are of that character and the actor who played her. If not, from a movie I've never seen, Sophie's Choice ?
If I see any more wankery and bashing, people will lose their posting privileges for a few days or even for good.

A couple of posters will have found this has already happened so things can cool down for a few hours. And I am really not impressed with the direction this thread has taken.
Hope you don't mind, Simon, with all the craziness I never got to respond yesterday to a couple of people:

@Gossi Were you really behind us? That was a Hall H line, right? Wish you would've said hi! We really didn't get to hang out with many other fans after the "Whedonesque" dinner on preview night. Next time, then?

@zeitgeitst Speaking of said dinner, it was great meeting you and your awesome family! Good times :)
Joss whedon once said that if he ever makes a Buffy film he will gladly throw the comics under a bridge. (not the exact quote). So the day the film is greenlit I will reread this thread laugh over a nice hot cup of chocolate. With the little marshmellows in it.
Those little marshmallows are awesome.
Because one side of this news seems to be dominating, I'd like to say that I'm thrilled with this development. Although I've had criticisms here and there, I've greatly enjoyed Season 8 and can't wait to see my beloved Spike enter the scene. (I know IDW has done much with Spike, but I don't read its comics because of disagreements over the art.)

I really like Scott Allie: I find him funny but not dismissive. It's interesting to see how others can "read" people so differently.

Most important, I want Joss's creations under his control, even if other projects steal him away from time to time.

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