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"A bitca?"
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September 06 2010

Joss Whedon a God? An article from The Australian covering Joss' recent visit and featuring a brief re-cap of his career.

Don't know if it's just me, but the report seems rather... off? Inaccurate? If we weren't already intimately acquainted with Joss and his proverbial wittiness, some of those comments could easily be taken out of context - and not in the most pleasant light.

Also, I have to apologise on behalf of the nation for this particular line: "Not a particularly physically imposing god (the American creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Firefly is a small and imperfectly formed ranga)." /cringe

Hell yes he is! *off to read the article* :D
That's "The Australian" for you... probably why I never read it.
Guys, very talented storyteller.
Sigh.. It's always The Australian.. They have a reputation for wording things poorly. They listed Good Game (a games review show in Australia that airs on ABC2) as having hosts that "don't look like gamers because they're attractive people."
That actually offended the hosts quite a bit, because it basically says "you can't be a gamer, you're too good-looking!" and they found the stereotype being mentioned irritating.

But eh, what can really be done? WE all know Joss Whedon is a God walking among us. We're posting here, aren't we?

All glory to the Hypno-Joss![/Futurama]

"Ah, yes. Not just a god but a neurotic, self-deprecating, paradoxical god. Beat that, Christian sky bully." Okay, I loved that last part..

[ edited by MattAn24 on 2010-09-06 11:05 ]
"Joss Whedon a God?" Well, yeah. Duh.
The writer is a self-professed Whedon worshiper, so perhaps excitement explains the zany tone of the first half of the article.

I found the last several passages to be warm and heartfelt, much less frenetic in tone.

My marriage to an Aussie ended ten years ago, and can't for the life of me recall "ranga."

ETA: North Americans, if you don't already know, "ranga" refers to one with orange or red hair. From orangutan. You won't find it at Merriam Webster, but some of the definitions at urbandictionary.com are a hoot, though not necessarily in good taste.

[ edited by WhoIsOmega? on 2010-09-06 11:18 ]
After much research I have found that almost anyone in entertainment can be linked back to some Whedon venture within a few connections, often multiple ones, therefore trumping Kevin Bacon and making him the god of Hollywood.

Plus, i like his imperfectly formed self. Its where that brilliant brain lives.
Also, I have to apologise on behalf of the nation for this particular line: "Not a particularly physically imposing god (the American creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Firefly is a small and imperfectly formed ranga)." /cringe

Apology accepted ;). He never seemed that small to me, isn't Joss around 6 ft ? In cast photos like this one for instance he's handily taller than Morena Baccarin in heels (and IMDB has her down as 5'7") or Sean Maher (not in heels AFAIK ;) who IMDB has as 5'10". Nor particularly imperfectly formed for that matter, he just looks like a normal bloke - he's no George Clooney but then writers rarely are, that's partly why they're writers right ?

And presumably 'ranga' is like 'ginger' - with hard 'g's - over here, in which case you wouldn't expect to see it in e.g. the Guardian or Times but it'd easily appear in a tabloid.

I don't mind the slightly informal style though, it's worth noting that the article is apparently (according to the URL) from the opinion section which allows more leeway re: formality of language etc. and it's clearly written by a fan.

Also, i'm pretty sure Joss is agin' ALL sky bullies, not just the Christian one.
If he's a god imo he's a crazy one considering how the comics have panned out story wise so far...*g*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2010-09-06 12:05 ]
This wasn't that bad. Not sure if that's because you had me fearing the worst or because I'm used to Emma Tom - who isn't bad for a journalist when it comes to pop-culture stuff (it's all relative, especially for the Australian). Fun fact: she played bass in The Titanics with the lead singer from Custard.

Saje: Yep, she writes light-hearted opinion columns.
It wasn't that bad an article, I thought.

That said, I don't think of joss as a God. I think he's an ordinary guy, who's just as shit scared about living alone as me. That's why I like his work.

I think fans actually treat him as a father figure. Hence why you see stages of denial and rebellion when he does some level of work some people don't like - e.g. Dollhouse, the Buffy comics.
Not to piss on anyone's right to post what they like but can we just take it as read that in fact Joss is not a god and that almost no-one who's lucid enough to use a keyboard actually believes that ? May sound weird but I feel embarrassed for our fandom when folk consider things like that need to be explicitly stated (i.e. as if the opposite might plausibly be true).
I feel embarrassed for our fandom when folk consider things like that need to be explicitly stated


I think the perception is that we think he's a God, it's an awfully convenient and complacent view of the fandom which doesn't require much thinking. So yes sometimes it does need to be explicitly stated that he's not.
I think by stating he's not we're effectively saying "It's worthy of consideration" when obviously it actually isn't to any sane person. I.e. it perpetuates that view of the fandom by appearing to take the idea seriously in any way (when to a non-fan it's so apparent that it doesn't need saying - anymore than i'd say, in all seriousness, "To me, the Moon isn't a balloon").

As I say though, not up to me what folk say or don't say, have at it ;).
Sean Maher (not in heels AFAIK ;) who IMDB has as 5'10".


And here I thought he had a fetish for heels ;)

Perhaps it's just because I don't read The Australian often, if at all, and therefore couldn't help raising my eyebrows at its tone and choice of words/phrases, even if it is an opinion article.


That said, I don't think of joss as a God. I think he's an ordinary guy, who's just as shit scared about living alone as me. That's why I like his work.


Well said, gossi.

Not to piss on anyone's right to post what they like but can we just take it as read that in fact Joss is not a god and that almost no-one who's lucid enough to use a keyboard actually believes that ?


*gasp!* Blasphemy!

In all seriousness though, I don't think Joss as a god either. What resonates more meaningfully, IMO, is that he is an ordinary guy, just like the rest of us (except with an abnormally large brain ;)) whose work we can respect and appreciate because it's ultimately about us. It's about the struggle of life from which no one is exempt - especially Joss, who is the storyteller. Though, on the other hand, I can understand the sentiments of his godliness as an expression of respect and awe.

It's a funny conundrum though. I wonder what Joss thinks of comments such as these, considering his own views?
I use the term God more often than not, referring to people's works and the worlds they have created, so indeed, Joss, Edgar Wright, David Chase, Vince Gilligan - these are all Gods to their worlds. God is linked hand-in-hand with the word Creator, so I think it works.

That being said, I get where Saje is coming from and would probably cringe if it came up in any place other than the black.
If this were the ancient world, though, we might have deified him by now. People throw around the word "God" a bit liberally with respect to celebs I think...

Saje, I believe Joss is about 5'11. His words, I think, when asked about his height were, "About 6 feet, that is, not 6 feet."

Maybe the housecat-riding Pocket Joss which my book club and I invented yesterday is the one who actually visited Australia.

ETA:

the funny man who couldn't get any sex


Really? I don't think this is a reasonable epithet for him.

I think the main problem with this article, though, is a struggle to maintain a weak metaphor throughout.

[ edited by Kiba on 2010-09-06 14:23 ]
I met Joss once, in our local Barnes & Noble. Well, okay, my husband met him anyway. I suddenly morphed into a 12 year old at a Jonas Bros. concert and hyperventilated behind a stack of books, too chicken to say hello and repeating, "Joss Whedon is in my bookstore." in a squeaky voice. Yeah, not a moment I'm proud of. Anyway, my husband is 5'7" and I don't recall Joss towering over him. He didn't strike me as overly tall. Not that my brain was functioning properly.

And would it surprise you to know that Joss has many Christian fans? So yeah, we don't believe Joss to be a god and we don't believe God to be a sky bully. We do believe Firefly/Buffy/Angel to be some of the best written television we've discovered and have a huge crush on Joss' creative brain. Okay, I do anyway. And I wear my Browncoat sweatshirt with pride. ;-)
And here I thought he had a fetish for heels ;)

All I can assume is that that photo was taken on a weekday cardea ;).

*gasp!* Blasphemy!

Yep, I guess what i'm saying is "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy !". Stone away ;).

It's a funny conundrum though. I wonder what Joss thinks of comments such as these, considering his own views?

That we're all as mad as a bag of spanners i'd imagine ;).

Saje, I believe Joss is about 5'11. His words, I think, when asked about his height were, "About 6 feet, that is, not 6 feet."

Yeah that ties in with what I thought, cheers Kiba. Also, going by the comedy maxim "It's funny cuz it's true" and backtrapolating it makes sense that since it's funny, it must be true. QED. Ish.
There's nothing I can say.
This 'Whedon is G*d' idea is, even in jest, deeply offensive.

[ edited by Peanut Noir on 2010-09-06 16:16 ]
Maybe it's "deeply offensive" to those who believe in "God", or more precisely, one of the monotheistic patriarchal gods of religions that fall into that category. But a lot of us don't hold those beliefs.

And someone pointed out above that Joss has Christan fans, without seeming offended.
I personally have always taken the whole "Joss is God" thing as part humor and part in the tradition of making obviously OTT statements about creative people whom we admire beyond our ability to express in normal, non-hyperbolic terms.

I personally reserve it for Joss and Jimmy Page. And in the dead people category, Van Gough. :_)

EF:typo

[ edited by Shey on 2010-09-06 16:37 ]
Until this discussion, it hadn't seriously occurred to me that *anybody* actually thought Joss Whedon fans literally believed he's God, or a god. I thought it was generally understood that "god" here was being used in the same sense as "rock gods" (the music-playing kind, not the Easter Island kind) - i.e., a passionately admired and revered virtuoso in his field who produces work that fans find transporting, not literally a supernatural deity. Are we sure anybody thinks we think that, rather than "they think Joss is God" is them joking about us?
I enjoyed the article. It was almost entirely tongue in cheek, and prompted a second read after I skimmed it the first time. I think it was an attempt (clumsy at times, but genuine) to pay homage to Whedon's writing style. I didn't detect any sarcasm or condescension, and enjoyed seeing the examples of "Buffy-speak" entering other shows.

Peanut Noir - As for the offensiveness of the 'Whedon is a deity' idea, is this because you think that people should display the same reverence towards "G*d" that you do, regardless of their beliefs? Or is the offensive part the fact that they believe differently?

[ edited by zoinkers on 2010-09-06 18:10 ]
I've never really believed anybody thinks Joss is, uhm, 'God'. I think it's a play on 'joss is boss'.
I personally have always taken the whole "Joss is God" thing as part humor and part in the tradition of making obviously OTT statements about creative people whom we admire beyond our ability to express in normal, non-hyperbolic terms.


Yes, zigactly. But I have to admit, it always does make me cringe a little bit. I don't know why. Maybe it just sounds embarrassingly gushy, or maybe it's too blandly uncreative (and presumably blindly uncritical) a way of expressing admiration. I know it's silly to find it anymore discomfiting than someone just saying "he's awesome," but it's one of my mini-peeves (not a pet peeve, I don't keep them as pets, they just hang around anyway though I swear I feed 'em not at ALL).

Also yeah I found the first half of the article very frenetic and over-caffeinated, and then it settled down and became much more readable. I was kind of skimming though - in what way was it an inaccurate report (other than re. Joss's height ;))?
I think it is a shorthand for saying he can do no wrong.
Maybe that's why it makes me cringe ;).
wow, quite the discussion going on here. from what I've seen so far joss whedon handles genuine compliments on his work very well, when confronted with directionless flattery he seems rather nervous and uncomfortable. which I get. I never understood the whole "god" thing, it always seemed to me that people might be able to come up with something more pleasant to say if they just put in two more seconds to think about it.
Dana, yeah, for some, but then you'll see some of the same folks who say "Joss is god" have no problems detailing their least favorite episodes of his shows or their problems with trends in his writing. You learn to not assume that those praising with the over-the-top-but-affectionate "Joss is god" line are necessarily folks who believe he's beyond reproach.

There are some who seem to genuinely believe that, which...scary (and they need to try more TV), but I think they're a minority in the fandom.
I think it is a shorthand for saying he can do no wrong.

Dana5140 | September 06, 18:29 CET

Maybe that's why it makes me cringe ;).

catherine | September 06, 18:33 CET


There's that too. Like, really ? He puts them on BOTH legs at a time or something ?

(OK, that's actually not that big a deal. Wallace does it for instance - even though they may not be the right trousers - and he's made of frikkin' plasticine FFS but insert the appropriate manner of speech for still-being-humanness)

... it always seemed to me that people might be able to come up with something more pleasant to say if they just put in two more seconds to think about it.

.. demigod ? Wait, which one's better again ?

See this is the thing - apparently none of us actually think it, so why, in apparent seriousness, say we don't see him that way ? If it's so obviously a joke then you don't need to negate it right ? And by doing so you imply to people on the outside who may not know just what paragons of sanity we all are (*cough*) that it's actually NOT so obviously a joke, that there might be something behind it. Which there isn't. It's like saying "Personally, I think murdering children is bad". To me, anyone that actually feels they have to say that is someone you slowly and carefully back ... away ... from.

In short, Joss is God !
I have no problem with the reporter wording, excet that I have no idea about what "raga" means (Thanks, WhoIsOmega? !).

That actually offended the hosts quite a bit, because it basically says "you can't be a gamer, you're too good-looking!" and they found the stereotype being mentioned irritating.

The stereotype most present to me, about the video game tv shows is that always the narration is made by a woman with Brit accent. Not sure if there is a giant UK program about it, but all the shows of games here , use to have this kind of voice over.

If he's a god imo he's a crazy one considering how the comics have panned out story wise so far...*g*
You know, Sueworld, to me Joss is like those Greek, Nordic, African (big list) gods, that could sc**w things sometimes, have rage and all this strange humans emotions that even the Christian Guy have. :)

"god" here was being used in the same sense as "rock gods"
Don't English has also, as Portuguese, the use of "god" as in beautiful people ("S/He is a God/dess)?

To the atheist saje: I had just listen today, a podcast saying that in the Brit Show Spaced, one of the main characters made his prayers to a Buffy poster, so this is your prove of Joss "Gloriussness"
;)
Hee hee, I think I will also start referring to "the atheist Saje".

Hee hee again re. this:

It's like saying "Personally, I think murdering children is bad". To me, anyone that actually feels they have to say that is someone you slowly and carefully back ... away ... from.

Also I think my post above sounded a bit judgmental. If you like saying "Whedon is god!" to mean "He's so cool I love his stuff ra ra" then that's cool, my mini-peeves and I get along OK, they are really no trouble and I shouldn't be such a bitca.
I know in the (not THAT) old days at the Bronze, it was just fun to say things like "Thank Joss It's Friday." The idea came from, I think, the fact that he'd sort of created this world where we all liked to live for 45-90 minutes once a week. I can't imagine actual divinity has ever been anyone's intent there. There is an interview (there are so many that I'm not even going to try and find it) where Joss talked about intending for Buffy to be a big deal, and sort of setting him up for this sort of cult of the writer thing, I think...

It seems to me we can all agree that the man's done good creative work. He's my favorite kind of person in that he's absolutely confident in his abilities but also is self-deprecating in his humor.

I give you this quote from the Bronzer/JossisaHottie.com interview, in hopes it might illuminate this discussion or at least amuse some of us:


Sushi asks: Joss, after building a rather large shrine to you in my bedroom, several of my so-called friends have been acting peculiar around me. I mean, it's true that on occasion I'll sacrifice a ram or two in your name, but is that any reason for them to question my sanity? How do I go about convincing these narrow minded individuals that Whedonism is a valid lifestyle? Also, would you prefer I smite the evil Aaron-Spellingites with a nail-bat, or the slightly more traditional nail-board?

Joss: The Joss does not advocate any form of violence, except cool slo mo matrixy type violence, which, let's face it, we can't do. We must learn to tolerate -- yes, even love -- the spellingites. And keep sacrificin' them goats!

Actually asking him how it felt to be a God at the Melbourne talk really didn't help to non-solidify this myth. He handled it well, though. I can see how that constant wall of "We love what you do" can make a man weary.

Joss is sort of a naughty, caring father-figure for me, even though I'm older than him, but I stop short at ascribing him deityness. As far as that physical description which pulled me up short, I can only repeat my story of him walking right by me at Comic-Con in 2006 and the cuteness factor was off the charts; jeans, t-shirt, longish wavy hair - that he ever had trouble with girls is mystifying to me.
"Maybe it's "deeply offensive" to those who believe in "God", or more precisely, one of the monotheistic patriarchal gods of religions that fall into that category. But a lot of us don't hold those beliefs."

Clearly. But it's a sad commentary about those individuals that they have to replace God with the fantasy creations of a talented person whom oddly enough attended private Christian schools his entire academic life. Maybe he's secretly teaching you people the principles of basic Judeo-Christian values in the guise of fantasy?

Sorry about not using the fancy paste up/mark ups, I'm not a computer technician.
Peanut Noir - you're making a lot of assumptions about said individuals and their beliefs. Also, I'd like to hear the answer to my question above about what it is exactly that you find offensive.
I just listened to the radio interview with Tony Head from a different thread. I started laughing when he said Joss is a god because I had been reading this thread just before it.

Personally, I think when people say they don't think Joss is a god, or is God, they are only using it to indicate that they don't think he is infallible or that they do not follow him mindlessly. (That's not a slam to followers of religion BTW, faith is not supposed to be an intellectual decision.) I would hope that everything would be taken metaphorically, both statements and denials.

People who immediately tell Whedon fans that they are "drinking the Kool-aid" bug me as do fans who will justify everything Joss does as though he WERE perfect.

I thought the article was just trying to be fun. It seems silly to take it so seriously.

Peanut Noir, lashing out and making unjustified judgments about "you people" rarely help one's argument. Are you separating yourself from Whedon fans in general, or simply those who have different religious views from yours?
Personally I find the whole "So-and-so is [a/my] (god/idol/God) blah blah blah" type chatter to be kind of cute and endearing since the claim is so obviously ridiculous, although if it's maintained over too long a time or with a little too much sincerity (as this author seems dangerously close to imo) it just makes me doubt their sanity/want to stay a safe distance away from them in Real Life.

It's also worth noting that there is a world of difference between the implications of calling someone God versus calling someone a god - as per the article.

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2010-09-06 21:05 ]
Very true, small 'g' gods are ten-a-penny, to be honest i'd think less of Joss if he wasn't a god of some description, I mean, what the hell's he doing with his time otherwise ? But the God is something else, more of a commitment, maybe too much to expect of a busy writer/director (he'd have to grow a long flowing beard for instance and also become omnipotent).

To the atheist saje: I had just listen today, a podcast saying that in the Brit Show Spaced, one of the main characters made his prayers to a Buffy poster, so this is your prove of Joss "Gloriussness"
;)


*tags believer saje out of the ring, puts atheist hat on* (seriously*, I have one. It's got a badge on the front that says "I'm with nothingness" and then an arrow pointing absolutely nowhere)

I remember watching Tim (Simon Pegg's character) do that as it broadcast Brasilian Chaos Man, very funny and slightly uncomfortable in the "Is it crazy that that actually doesn't seem that crazy to me ?" sort of way ;). Great show BTW, if you can get hold of it on DVD I highly recommend it.




* as in seriously made up
I haven't been able to find it, but some months (years?) ago there was a running joke about "Joss is a god" (lower case G) here at Whedonesque. The argument was not *if* he was a god, but which one. (I suppose there were some who argued against deitism, but blasphemers don't count.) My vote was for Ogma, Celtic god of eloquence, poets, literature, and music.

Maybe there are people who take it a little too seriously, but my vote is behind what Shey said: "I personally have always taken the whole "Joss is God" thing as part humor and part in the tradition of making obviously OTT statements about creative people whom we admire beyond our ability to express in normal, non-hyperbolic terms." So much of the Whedon humor is about OTT statements. Any controversy is probably due to the Internet, where sarcasm and humorous voice don't translate so well.

In closing, when gossi and Saje say that Joss is not a god, remember that Joss himself has said: "people have a right to be wrong". ;-)

[ edited by OneTeV on 2010-09-06 21:33 ]
*Saje*, I think when statements like, "I think murdering children is wrong" come up, usually it's in a larger topic like genocide, revenge murders, etc., because, very tragically, we are in a world where it is demonstrated that not everybody does believe this all of the time. However, if someone uses this as a conversation-starter, I would agree that would be worrying and cause for the "Wow, is that the police officer/martial arts expert I came here with standing a few feet behind me? Let me go look!" maneuver.
It's funny - the "Joss is my god" thing never made me that cringey only because it's so over-the-top it's ridiculous & kinda cute - it does effectively signify the importance of Joss to the folks that use it. I'm not one of them that tends to refer to him as a "god" - it would make me personally a tad uncomfortable to use - but I do have a twitter-list called Comedy/Writing Gods that includes:

Stephen Fry, Trace Beaulieu, Jane Espenson, Seth McFarlane, Patton Oswalt, Simon Pegg, J. Elvis Weinstein, Michael McKean, Margaret Cho, Eddie Izzard, Frank Conniff, Paula Poundstone, John Cleese, Bryan Fuller, among others. And if Joss were on twitter, he'd be on that list, too.

A similar thing that does give me the squicky-wiggles is when fan refer to "converting" folks to watching Joss' shows. That's just more kool-aid that I care to drink - even if it is in jest.

And if I were Joss, which I am demonstrably not, after all these years all of the praisey-stuff on this level might give me the bygods-creepin'-willies.
Thanks, Saje I'll try to find it, not sure there is a release here, since even Buffy and Angel (most popular and Yankees shows) hadn't the complete seasons avaliable in DVD. :(



OneTeV said:

In closing, when gossi and Saje say that Joss is not a god, remember that Joss himself has said: "people have a right to be wrong". ;-)


Did you mean Himself wright? ;)

A little bit OT, but didn't one of the Buffy Drews' have minions?

[ edited by Brasilian Chaos Man on 2010-09-06 21:54 ]
Heh, re: 'the atheist Saje' ;). (Also, fancy meeting both Saje and catherine in a comments thread with 'God' in the title ;). Now where's zeitgeist?)

Anyway, I'm with the consensus here: calling Joss 'God' is just a fun way of expressing ourselves which shouldn't be taken too seriously. And thanks for that flashback to the old (actually, they are pretty old, I'd say, certainly in 'internet time') Bronze days there, Kiba. I'd forgotten about the whole 'thank Joss it's Friday' thing :). I miss the Bronze (and I miss the show being on the air). < /nostalgic>
where's zeitgeist?

This is a tread about god, not spirits. :)
Hah ;).

(and I miss the show being on the air). < /nostalgic>

I miss nostalgia *sigh*.
Years ago I took the recommendations here to watch Spaced. It was not on Netflix, but I did find the episodes on Youtube. It was soooo not what I expected, (lets start with expecting science fiction cause...Spaced?!?) but fun and interesting. Well worth the time and energy to find it.
If your in the UK, the entire series is on YouTube, legally. It's pretty awesome.
It's the first sitcom I remember watching where I thought "Wait a minute, that's my situation they're comedying !". And yep, it's 'Spaced' as in "spaced out" I think, not 'Spaced' as in, well, space.
Spaced is amazing. If anybody ever sees joss in a DVD shop, take him to the Spaced set.
It's not finished...

.
.
.


It's finished.
I think fans actually treat him as a father figure. Hence why you see stages of denial and rebellion when he does some level of work some people don't like - e.g. Dollhouse, the Buffy comics.

Unsurprisingly then Joss is the only father figure that hasn't failed me because I do genuinely enjoy everything he's done even at their most disagreeable. Egads!
I missed the father figure comment.

That certainly is not my situation. Besides Joss being younger than me, my dad was pretty much my only father figure.

Joss is just a really brilliant artist who I admire immensely, but whose latest work (that I have seen) I have not cared for that much. I still think he is brilliant, and I still want to see more of his work, but I am also aware that our interests may have diverged to the point that he may never again write something that I appreciate the way I did his earlier work. Then again, I could go to see the Avengers or something else and be totally blown away. That is the interesting thing about Art and about the future, you can never tell what may be coming up that will grab you and make you feel awe at its existence. Anyone who can do that once has my undying respect as an artist. If they can continue to do it, well that is an incredible gift that I'll simply be grateful I get to enjoy.
So if it isn't your situation, why do you feel the need to comment on it, as though it's a negative? Good grief. I think China Mieville said it best in that topic I posted a couple of weeks ago: ...I feel likes me and loves me and is on some cultural level my brother and comrade. And if that work and the work's creator has comforted me, whose father, and I use that term loosely, was a monster to his children, I'm certainly not going to be embarrassed about expressing it. Family is where you find it. Not all of us were lucky enough to have a good one of origin.
Who is Joss Whedon?

Mind=blown!
Uh... what I said was a simple factual statement neither negative or positive.

So the rules are now that if someone makes a blanket statement that fans do this or that and that statement is not true of you, it is a problem for you to say so? ...And saying so makes it a negative?

Good grief.
To be honest, a certain portion of the joss fanbase (and haters) hangs on belief, or lack of. Belief is a very personal thing, hence why lots of people avoid The God Word.

The father figure point of view is just that, my point of view on how I see some fans react to joss (or: his work). I'm sure it doesn't apply to everybody. How you relate to joss and/or his body of work is entirely your thing.
How you relate to joss and/or his body of work is entirely your thing.

Truth.

I don't understand where the offense is coming from in this thread, maybe most of it's just misunderstanding of what other people meant. In any case, please be civil.
I don't understand where the offense is coming from in this thread[...]

Pretty sure it was spawned by a strange form of cognitive dissonance between the more surreal qualities of the article's content and the specific wording and capitalization of the article's whedonesque headline (which itself never actually appears in the article.) An entirely unintended consequence, I expect.
Excellent article and very well-written. Yes, Joss is a god and I'm not getting rid of my small, yet tasteful, alter to him. ;-)
And keep sacrificing them goats too ;).
I think it is a shorthand for saying he can do no wrong.


If Joss is a god, he's of the more ancient variety. Full of the same petty desires as mere mortals and wishing to tinker and interfere in the lives of the lower beings--pushing, guiding and goading them along the path he chooses.

[ edited by Emmie on 2010-09-07 08:02 ]
One that will give us what we need rather than what we want.
I love Whedon - who wouldn't be here if we didn't. Buffy and Firefly were absolutely brilliant. But as Emmie said, he'd have to be one of the ancient gods. After all, our beloved Joss is quite capable of horrific mistakes as well. Anyone who has seen Angel series 4 and the whole teenage Connor storyline must know that.
I'm automatically in the "gods of the ancient variety" corner, with my basically Pagan/Buddhist hybrid philosophy. And the last thing I would ever have thought of is "shorthand for saying he can do no wrong".
Which is a creepy idea and one I can't imagine being held by anyone who has followed whedonesque and actually read threads.

Although I do have jossisgod as a password on an internet account, it was in a totally humorous frame of mind that I came up with the idea. ;_)
(Also, fancy meeting both Saje and catherine in a comments thread with 'God' in the title ;).

Ha, what're the odds, right? I'm curious about the China Mieville quote Tonya J - if you wander back this way can you give me a linky / some context?
One. It turns out the odds are exactly one ;).

(I think Tonya J's probably referring to this thread from a couple of weeks back where Mr Mieville compares JJ Abrams to Joss)


ETF: link

[ edited by Saje on 2010-09-07 13:27 ]
I find it a bit surprising that there is such a need to say wether or not we honestly believe Joss to be God or a god or just a human.
I believe I have said 'Joss is God' before and certainly 'Joss is my master' but in honest jest, I don't actually believe Joss is a deity or that he has any supernatural power. maybe he has made a deal with one, who knows?
well, I better not joke in this thread. doesn't seem the place for it.
I will say I believe Joss to be a very gifted writer and that's the most important part.
Thanks Saje. I missed that the first time round, and I'm a sort of ambivalent fan of China Mieville (not sure if he likes me or loves me or is my comrade and brother ;)) so that was interesting to read.
These kinds of things usually are intended to be humorous, although I'm really not fond of them myself. To each their own, I guess.
I remember watching Tim (Simon Pegg's character) do that as it broadcast Brasilian Chaos Man, very funny and slightly uncomfortable in the "Is it crazy that that actually doesn't seem that crazy to me ?" sort of way ;). Great show BTW, if you can get hold of it on DVD I highly recommend it.


Same here ;). I seem to remember that there was a second reference to Buffy in Spaced. It might just have been that we saw that Tim had a second Buffy poster in his room. I had the same two posters, so I found that rather awesome. Amazing show.

Ok, so I had to look it up. Two more references to Buffy:

[Discussing Twist]
Tim: She's shallow, Brian. She's like Cordelia out of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and latterly Angel, the spin off series which is set in LA.
Brian: Don't know what you're talking about.
Tim: Brian, you're such a square!

A slammed door awakens the four main characters, each of whom yell something in a montage format.
Daisy: I'm sorry!
Mike: I'm hit!
Brian: (wearing an eyemask) I'm blind!
Tim: Buffy!
Emmie: If Joss is a god, he's of the more ancient variety.

Considering how Joss loves to torment the audience by slaying beloved characters, you have me thinking of the Calvin & Hobbes sunday cartoon where he is playing with tinker toys.
"But Calvin is no kind and loving god! He's one of the old gods! He demands sacrifice!"
Buffy, Spaced, and Calvin & Hobbes all in the same thread, and all in a handspan of one another. *happy sigh* I love my fandom.
Don't forget China Mieville!
For me, China doesn't bring the warm and fuzzy, along with the bleak and dark like Joss does. His writing and stories are, probably not the best word, but, uncomfortable, (also hugely intense, exciting and intellectual) which is just fine, seeing as how what I've read thus far are novels about an alien world. Guess you can't tell much I'm running on a huge crush here... :-)
I'm working my way through the collection "Living Shadows" by John Shirley at the moment. Man, talk about uncomfortable. Not particularly genre but Jesus the guy can see the truth of us. Not sure how much i'd wanna be him.

And China Mieville just keeps moving up my TBR list, everything folk say about it makes his stuff sound more intriguing.
I don't think you'll be sorry at all if you read Mieville's stuff, Saje. He is the modern progenitor of writers like Lovecraft. If you do and don't like him, please don't beat me up.

Oh also, for anyone still bothering to read, this is very instructive about Mieville:

The Books That Made me
IMDB says Joss is 6'4" just for the record. Also for the record? I think he's totally hot, so I'm not sure where the imperfectly formed thing is coming from. Loves me some redheads.
I don't think he's 6'4" is he?? That's gigantic!

China Mieville may not be the kind of writer that's easy to love (IMO) but there's no question he's really, really interesting, and a phenomenal talent. What a weird little list that linky goes to though. You should come over to the whatcha reading corner of the lit thread on .org Tonya J. (Speaking of which I haven't been there for a million years myself... so off I go to catch up on what everyone's reading!)
I'm taller than Joss. I'm six foot.
catherine, the podcast at the link is better than the list, which he reads excerpts from. Wonderful.
gossi: Spaced is amazing. If anybody ever sees joss in a DVD shop, take him to the Spaced set.

I'm fairly sure Joss is a "Spaced" fan from way back - I bought the DVDs myself from his mention of it in an interview.

And as early as 2008, whedonesque mentions his Simon Pegg love - though the EW video linked to in that thread says it's "currently unavailable".

(I remember the vid as kindof a hodge-podge of various folks recommending all sorts of stuff, including Joss mashing on Simon Pegg - and with some other folks heaping praise on Doctor Horrible.)

I've gotten most of the high points of my recent non-Whedon'verse TV/film watching either from Joss (Veronica Mars, Spaced) or all y'all (Battlestar Galactica, Life on Mars, etc., etc.) My popular culture menu would be mighty sparse without youse guys. ; >

BTW, it seems kinda peculiar to me that the discussions of Joss' height erupt at regular almost predictable intervals here on WHEDONesque. I guess it points to how often and (possibly unconsciously) height is viewed as some sort of marker of quality... while, of course, it ain't a marker of anything but... I guess one's ability to reach stuff on the high shelves and see over other people during parades.

Joss was taller than I (at 5'8") by at least several inches. And imdb - bless its erring little heart.
you have me thinking of the Calvin & Hobbes sunday cartoon where he is playing with tinker toys.
"But Calvin is no kind and loving god! He's one of the old gods! He demands sacrifice!"


Do you mean the newspaper strips,OneTeV or is there a tv cartoon that I, unfoutunatelly, never saw?
And if you had saw a recent episode of Louie, there is a reminder that Jesus' Dad isn't always in a good humour.
I just knew you were tall, Quotergal. You sound tall. Must be nice at parades, and around high shelves.
; >

I think my finest height hour came when I wanted to watch a parade that was up on one of the high shelves. Did I pity all the short people then, I can tell you.

We still laugh about it now.
I expect to see an entirely serious citation any time now that says

As a Nordic deity, Joss Whedon towers over his fans at 6' 5 1/2". He does not wear lifts.
--whedonesque.com Sept 8, 2010.
Hee hee. You all is funny.
"Joss Whedon vs Mecha Joss Whedon !"

IMDB has Adam Baldwin down as 6'4" and in that photo I linked he looks a fair bit taller than Joss (and other stuff seems to indicate that too, behind the scenes bits and so on). Wouldn't be surprised if that's actually a bit low for AB BTW, he looms large even among male actors (who're traditionally taller than average).

I guess it points to how often and (possibly unconsciously) height is viewed as some sort of marker of quality... while, of course, it ain't a marker of anything but... I guess one's ability to reach stuff on the high shelves and see over other people during parades.

Or how tall your parents were combined with how well fed you were as a youngster ;). True BTW, you only have to look at the stats for CEOs, salaries etc. to see there's a correlation between height and success/quality (for CEOs apply your own inverted commas to the word quality). But as well as that, I think it's just because a lot of people are interested in Joss but haven't actually met him in the flesh (or mecha flesh) hence questions about his physical appearance. If photos weren't so widely available people would be wondering about his hair colour too i'd imagine.



ETA: an "n't". Sometimes an "n't" can make all the difference.

[ edited by Saje on 2010-09-09 07:34 ]
It's an interesting subject: how height - or perceived/remembered height - may affect success in a number of areas, and for a number of reasons. I hadn't thought about it a whole lot, other than to notice that some people tend to remember folks they like or admire as taller than they actually are.

I'm now reading some of the articles/studies linked to in this psychology wiki-page.
Thanks for that link QG, it is an interesting subject, partly because (one way or another) it applies to us all and also partly because it's just so flippin' complicated with so many variables etc. Some of it i'd already come across but the stuff on the correlation between intelligence and height was new to me and especially interesting because it's an objective measure (with the usual caveats about standardised intelligence testing) though I wonder if even there some of the difference (in later years at least since nutrition also makes a lot of sense to me, as well as a possible genetic link between height and intelligence) could be accounted for by the perceived difference in worth between taller and shorter people since there's a fair bit of evidence that just telling people they're better makes them perform better (same with age - tell folk they're old and they feel and act older).

Semi-related, reading a pretty good book at the moment called "Brainwashing" which is about the Great Laundry Wars of 1856 (OK, OK it's actually about brainwashing ;) and in there the author talks about the various ways our brains are influenced by external forces (on a continuum from the extremes of brainwashing - physical torture, extreme stress, threats, isolation, repetition etc. - through to advertising ploys and normal interpersonal relations) and the general unreliability of what you think you remember (or even what you think you think).

Also, interesting factoid about Napoleon not being short for his time. Not a sufferer from SMS (Short Man Syndrome) after all then, just from SMS (Stroppy Man Syndrome ;).
I figure everyone perceives Joss as being tall in their heads because feelings of awe are linked to looking upwards: Light from above? "God" talking. Badassiest(?) comic book character ever? Worm's eye view. Conversely, feelings of mystery come from below. Architects tap into these two emotional responses all the time.

******

QuoterGal and Saje, interesting links. Thank you.

I know it's hard (read nigh impossible) to separate the particular influence of the various factors, but I wonder if height plays any part in whether women are in positions of power? I'm sure it must play some role, but I guess it would be all mixed up with inclination, opportunity, personality, and gender stuff. Maybe that's why so many corporate and political women continue to torture themselves with those high heels. (Not a fan, myself.) If height does factor into the women in power thing, I'm sure its influence could be negated by the use of a few good thrones. ; )

******

Saje, which book called "Brainwashing" is it exactly? It sounds like something I would like to add to my reading list, but it appears to be a very popular title.
It's called "Brainwashing" by Kathleen Taylor BreathesStory and the edition I have is published by Oxford University Press (there's a subtitle "The Science of Thought Control" but i'm not sure if it's an actual subtitle or more along the lines of an additional front page description - though it is directly below the title so, y'know, in literal terms... ;). I'm about two thirds through and am enjoying it, her style is very straightforward and lucid but not dry and the content feels quite wide-ranging (the bit i'm on at the moment is about the neuroscience of the tiny eye movements - called saccades - that all sighted people make when processing a visual scene) but still focussed if that's not contradictory. Plenty of notes and further reading suggestions too.

And yeah, i'd imagine height matters for women in power too though it'd be interesting to know if a) that's actually true (rather than just what I imagine ;) and b) if it matters as much and in the same way (i'd speculate that being physically imposing might even be a disadvantage for women in situations where some men may already feel threatened by them).
Oh, the Great Laundry Wars of 1856 - my great great grandfather fought for the right to clean laundry for all back then, and suffered a painful dry cleaning just three days before the Forces of Filth surrendered.

I didn't know Napoleon was an average-sized guy either, so there we go. Napoleon average, Joss Whedon a giant, these are important things to know. A few years ago I discovered (because we were being measured) that I am a little bit taller than a friend who I'd assumed was taller than me. I told her I'd always thought she was taller, and that must be because I look up to her. She said with a faraway look that she'd always thought she was taller than me too. So.

I bet height matters less for women in positions of power than it does for men. I'd be interested to know what the most "useful" physical type is for a woman trying to climb the corporate ladder. But ultimately I think it is all in in the seeming and not in the actual. I had a student in Japan, a big CEO dude, and at the end of our lesson in his way-above-the-city office, we'd both stand up and I'd be shocked to find myself towering over him, because he gave the impression of being such a big man. And he had this confidence about him that made me feel not so much taller but like some kind of gangling freak, because clearly he must be the "right" size and I was all wrong.
Sorry to hear about your great great grandfather catherine (really though ? He was that great ?), it was a terrible time, a lot of good people got taken to the cleaners. Not to mention the random coat-hangings in the streets. Oh, the humanity !

She said with a faraway look that she'd always thought she was taller than me too. So.

Heh, and these are just the people we can choose whether or not to be around ;).

Re: women in the workplace, yep, hard to know. You might say pretty because men pay attention to pretty women but is it the right sort of attention (and would other women maybe resent it) ? Or is any attention sort of a "foot in the door" in that if they know you exist they might be more likely - however slightly - to listen to what you have to say ? And there's the whole thing about pretty women (pretty people really) having to work harder to be taken seriously. Re: height, if a woman's small enough to be loomed over then I can't see that being an advantage in the boardroom but big enough to loom might be bad too (the former's also true for a man, the latter not so much). It's a conundrum, wrapped inside a can of worms sat in the middle of a minefield.

Agreed BTW, some folk have a "big" presence, confidence and self-possession have a lot to do with it (not having a squeeky voice doesn't hurt ;).
coat-hangings, hee hee hee, very nice. So now we need to dig up anecdotes about tiny men with squeaky voices who are tremendously charismatic and successful (I know one! but he's not famous so that doesn't do anything for the rest of yez). Other than comedians. And THEN, my friends, THEN we will be as completely off-topic as we can possibly get, and my work here will be done.
NO,lol, Joss isn't "God" but lets face it, he is way smarter than even the smartest of the smart bears. :) Insert, more creative, more talented and more clever, in the place of "Smarter" above and you get the same result.
Oh cheryl, you're on topic. Thwarted again!
Well, you have to be on something right? *g*
Thanks, Saje. It's been added to my amazon wish list. Not available at the library. :(

Re Joss's godhood: If I'd said this when this was a younger thread, I would probably be stepping in it... but since no one's watching...*glances* some points:

Against Godhood: Joss has a sense of humor. Have you ever noticed how utterly serious the common understanding of God is? To the point of deadliness? *sigh* And have you ever noticed that when perfectly nice, fun people find religion, the first thing to go is their sense of humor? This is then followed closely by the second thing to go, which varies between the likes of their: Led Zepplin records, quasi commercialized celebration of holidays, and open mindedness/tolerance for other people's points of view. (That list is all my direct experience btw.)

For Godhood: Joss has a sense of humor. Humor's got to be a requirement to be a god--and it's most likely a twisted one. How else can I explain the platypus, sexual reproduction, and the mutually dependent nature of life and death? (Plus, he's starting to work the beard.)

I figure the tallness thing isn't even an issue--because, have you seen the idol/icon/avatars for some of those gods? Small. Real small. Apparently they shrink when they trod amongst us. I've seen the pictures on my computer. He can't be anymore than three inches tall most of the time. It doesn't seem to effect his creativity, and the ability to create has to be the number one determinant on the "Are you a God?" vocation quiz. Also on the quiz:

*How much time do you spend visiting fox holes? 10%, 50%, 75%
*How often do you find yourself cruising sporting events? once a week, every day, a couple of times an hour (that last one could make you a bookie as well)
Ha, you THINK no-one's watching. But I am always always watching the dead threads. OK that's not true. But I spotted this one. I'll leave the vocational quiz to others and just respond to this:

Have you ever noticed how utterly serious the common understanding of God is? To the point of deadliness? *sigh* And have you ever noticed that when perfectly nice, fun people find religion, the first thing to go is their sense of humor? This is then followed closely by the second thing to go, which varies between the likes of their: Led Zepplin records, quasi commercialized celebration of holidays, and open mindedness/tolerance for other people's points of view. (That list is all my direct experience btw.)


by slamming my head repeatedly into my desk and then hoping you'll, I don't know, meet 3 more people over the next couple of years and get over this POV. I'm glad you mention it's your direct experience, but it just seems to me like a good idea not to generalize, even with little caveats, about millions of people (some of whom, probably even many of whom, I promise you, are fucking hilarious, open-minded, into Easter Egg Hunts, and love Led Zeppelin, ) based on a few people you know. If you want to say, I know some religious people who XYZ, then OK, that's nice, or maybe it's not nice, whatever. But I am, seriously, and sadly rather humorlessly, sick to gorram death of the whole "Religious People Are Like THIS" schtick. Bleh.

Apologies. This post brought to you by catherine's grumpy non-caffeinated afternoon before heading off to work where she Does Not Want To Go.
No, no that's not exactly what I meant Catherine. I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough in my writing and offended you. I'm actually not sure if this is the kind of forum where a point of view on a sensitive topic can be adequately explained either. Not only does the reader miss inflection, body language, and context, but they also lose the ability to question as a conversation proceeds. Everything written ends up seeming so "absolute." That said, here goes...

I was thinking specifically about the newly converted. And I was also thinking about anyone who has been newly converted to a new paradigm or idea, not just those related to religion. As to religion specifically, I was thinking only about the newly converted and not about people who were brought up practicing religion or have been practicing for years. They seem to have a different relationship with their faith practice.

I have noticed that when people "see the light" about, well anything, that they do seem to lose their sense of humor regarding whatever it is that they have seen the light about. It doesn't have to be religion. As one example, I'm thinking of my mum. She went back to school at age 48 to become a psycho-therapist. After she became fully fledged we couldn't say anything jokingly about someone "being nuts" or laugh about some spoofy psychiatrist role in a film. She also went around speaking in tech speak for about a year. (Boy was that annoying.)

In my opinion, this "over the top seriousness," is actually a necessary step in trying on a new persona/role/lifestyle. I think that if all goes well and a person actually manages to assimilate their new "thing," they will end up eventually having to deal with the imperfections of their recently acquired persona/role/lifestyle. If they don't abandon it for greener pastures at that point, the sense of humor usually returns. (Either that or they get so ridged and unbearable that I avoid them.)

Of course "religious" people like Led Zepplin etc. (Heck, I was one of them. I still think of myself as spiritual, for what it's worth.) I did know this guy back in college who was saved and then got rid of all his records. (Man, that was a sweet collection too.) After his conversion to a perfectly middle of the road denomination of the Christian variety, he became soooo serious. It was like stepping on egg shells to talk to him. And no sense of humor at all regarding "God." (Which I don't get, myself.) After about four years he really regretted getting rid of the records. I guess he loosened up.

I like debate. I like to explore ideas. And thinking and talking about "God" is one of my favorite topics. I just don't find very religious people willing to talk about it. They always seem to want to argue me away and stomp all over my experiences and thoughts because I'm apparently not having the right ones. And they really don't like me asking questions. And yeah, it's my experience, but what else am I going to go by? Anecdotal only gets me so far.

So to recap:

1. Sorry to offend.
2. I was sighing over the horrors perpetrated ad nauseum in the name of "God" (That pastor in Florida really upset, scared, and embarrassed me.)
3. I do find the newly converted lose their sense of humor regarding whatever it is they've converted to.
4. The sense of humor can come back, I've seen it happen too. It just takes a couple of years.
5. I would never say "ALL" about anything. (Except dark chocolate. It is ALL great.)
6. My experience with rigorously religious people has not been of the fun type. Nothing apparently pushes religious buttons more than asking questions.
7. I should know by now that being offhandedly flip never translates online. Bad me.

ETA: Did the explaining just make it all seem worse? It sure took more words...

[ edited by BreathesStory on 2010-09-11 23:27 ]
Ah, sorry to misunderstand and jump all over you (and sorry to my desk for bashing it with my head unnecessarily).

1. No worries. I get what you're saying now, and thanks for explaining.
2. Yeah, that guy was a nut, and what I really don't get is why he got so much coverage for being a nut.
3. Hmmm. I don't know about this, but have not much anecdata of my own.
4. See 3.
5. Yes re. dark chocolate.
6. I guess anybody who takes anything Very Very Seriously is going to be... well, Very Very Serious about it.
7. It often does, and it was my fault for being undercaffeinated. BAD ME!
8. Reread my post and even had you been saying what I thought you were saying, I sound like a massive bitca. What is my problem?
9. Much too tired to think about what my problem might be. Sorry!
10. Goodnight, Thread!
Can I just say, in this tiny corner of t'internets where approx. 3.4 people will even see it:

To all religious people everywhere,

Don't worry sbout that guy in Florida, we're not judging you by that guy any more than we (should) judge Islam by the minority that perpetrate atrocities.

Yours,

The atheist Saje


And I agree about the recently converted, also from personal experience but for me the "conversions" that stick in my mind aren't (often) religious but nicotinous (so a word). Back when I still smoked and a friend would quit they would suddenly (for weeks to months) become THE most annoying human on Earth about everything smoking related. Usually they'd keep their Zeppelin albums though (even though they don't sound quite the same without a cigarette).

(also, 'anecdata' - heh ;)
To the Atheist Saje,

Thanks!

Yours,

All Religious People Everywhere


(OK, I can't claim to speak for ARPE, as I'm not even 0.4 of one. Nor can I claim credit for anecdata alas, which I picked up elsewhere on the internets. But I CAN post nonsense and be a badass thread killa! Go me!)
To All Religious People Everywhere (ARPE):

WSSTM and also 2 - cause the "all _________s do whatever" brush is a bigoted one no matter what direction it's pointing in.

Plus: I was delighted to see (video) that a bunch of Unitarian Universalists, among others, got together and stopped yet another *sigh* Quran-burning in Amarillo, Texas - and that the Irvine United Congregational Church hosted "Quran-blessing" ceremonies today in Orange County.

So: yay to religious groups (and other folks) that stand up for religious freedom for religions not their own.

-- from the Atheist QuoterGal ; >

P.S. To bring this back on topic ha-ha, nobody better try burning my Whedon-y DVDs and books or I will get mighty ticky.

Because Josh is my Bosh. ; >

P.P.S. Thread killa my sweet patootie, Missy.
*sneaks back in with a shank and ruthlessly finishes off gasping thread*
So, now the question is: What kind of burial ceremony will this thread be having?
I vote Viking. But personal politics aside, they do nice funerals too. And I don't just suggest it cos it'd be cheap either (but it'd be cheap).

Which raises the next question, did the thread die with its sword in its hand ?
; > It came home on its shield, too.

I think it would be fitting to bury it with all the ceremonies and honors of the Joss religion... which I am inclined to call Joshissm instead of Jossism.

Good-bye, dear thread - we hardly knew ye.

*stakes it through the heart for luck and then sets fire to it.*
Well, if it did have a sword it never got to use it, due to being shamefully shanked in the back by Catherine and her ninja skills. ;-) (Shanks being almost by definition invented for back stabbing.)

And fire? Pretty.

My proffered very bad eulogy* (The first and only draft to be inflicted):


Friends, posters, debaters, lend me your eyes;
I come to bury the Thread, not to praise it;
The words that "-ites" write live after them,
The good is oft interred with their errors,
So let it be with the Thread ... the noble Knockers
Hath told you the Thread did meander:
If it were so, it was a grievous over reach,
And grievously hath the Thread answered it ...
Here, under leave of the Knockers and the rest,
(For the Knockers are of honorable mind;
So are they all; all honorable minds)
Come I to speak in the Thread's funeral ...
It was good fun, posits of height, godhood:
But the Knockers say it did meander...
And the Knockers are of honorable mind.
Like threads hath brought many converts to the Black,
Whose obscure postings did our front pages fill:
Did this mean the Thread did meander?
Where that the fans have cried, the Thread hath wept:
Meanders should be made of dumber stuff:
Yet Knockers say it did meander;
And Knockers are of honorable mind.
You all did see that on Labor Day
It was thrice(?) presented with on topic,
Which it did thrice(?) reject: was this meanders?
Yet Knockers say it meandered;
And, sure they are of honorable mind.
I write not to disprove what Knockers wrote,
But I am here to write what I do know.
We all did play it once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then to mourn for it?
O debate! thou art fled to inane threads,
And "-ites" have tired their wit. ... Bear with me;
My heart is in the pyre there with the Thread,
And I must pause till it come come back to me.

*Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

ETF: small inconsistency

[ edited by BreathesStory on 2010-09-14 02:31 ]
*Wild Applause*

:-)
I was tempted to refrain from posting again, so catherine could indeed be Thread Killa Extraordinaire - but I couldn't because I needed to say:

Oh, brava, BreathesStory, brava - you sure rocked that poetry thang.
Thank you. : ) It was fun.
Yep, it's been real. Brilliant bit of work BreathesStory ;).

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