September 10
2010
It's Joss - Not Josh!
A blogger describes her reaction when someone gets Whedon's name wrong.
jul_weiss
| General
| 14:06 CET
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62 comments total
| tags: joss whedon
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Simon | September 10, 14:11 CET
menomegirl | September 10, 14:14 CET
Simon | September 10, 14:16 CET
Giles_314 | September 10, 14:18 CET
I'm pretty sure I still mumbled it uncontrolably and then ignored said idiot for the rest of college.
mariec | September 10, 14:25 CET
I seem to recall hearing that somewhere.
Xantastic1316 | September 10, 14:29 CET
speechlady | September 10, 15:00 CET
theclynn | September 10, 15:13 CET
Tonya J | September 10, 15:16 CET
NYPinTA | September 10, 15:35 CET
gossi | September 10, 15:52 CET
Oh, and when the mistake is done by a "fan" or in a "report"...
Another one that irks me is James Marsden for James Marsters - not really hard unusual names. REALLY.
Unlike ;p http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swnwPLkT88g
Mirage | September 10, 15:52 CET
jul_weiss | September 10, 16:05 CET
(It's a Chinese word for "luck", right?)
Kairos | September 10, 16:33 CET
"I did not. It was...a moan."
"Okay, you moaned [Joss]."
Xantastic1316 | September 10, 16:35 CET
[ edited by brinderwalt on 2010-09-11 02:04 ]
brinderwalt | September 10, 16:58 CET
Re: "joss" as luck - here's what I've found at Merriam Webster: It's "Chinese Pidgin English, from Portuguese deus (god) from Latin: a Chinese idol or cult image."
And from a very thorough explanation of the practice of burning joss sticks ; > this:
"The proper chinese term for joss stick is called "Xiang 香". It is basically a slender stick of incense burned before a joss by the Chinese. Actually, the joss stick (incense) is not just used by chinese, but also by Indians in religion such as Hinduism. Burning joss stick is known in chinese as "Shao Xiang 烧香"
I've always found that it's just common courtesy, as me mum used to say, to get someone's name right. Not all that hard, unless it's a language you're not used to pronouncing...
QuoterGal | September 10, 17:05 CET
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | September 10, 17:55 CET
But, yeah, when folks call Our Big Purple "Josh" I get kinda grr. The only excuse that could sort of fly is if they've only heard it said, and too quickly - "Joss Whedon" could sound like "Josh." If you've got hearing problems.
ShadowQuest | September 10, 19:23 CET
I suspect I deleted them all ;).
zeitgeist | September 10, 19:35 CET
tranquillity | September 10, 19:47 CET
Probably the most sensible thing she's ever done.
strangeaction | September 11, 00:41 CET
mr_waterproof | September 11, 01:46 CET
Jaymii | September 11, 04:10 CET
Nebula1400 | September 11, 05:28 CET
Winchester | September 11, 05:46 CET
Shep | September 11, 06:38 CET
Cynicat | September 11, 07:43 CET
This would not surprise me.
As someone who's had my name mispronounced all my life, I do find it an interesting subject.
Cause, seriously, how hard is it to look at the spelling of "Joss" and still say it wrong? Or even worse, print it wrong, when it's so easy to look up online?
I listend to the conversation for a moment then felt compelled to explain to her and her friends that no, Joss Whedon didn't make "Stargate".
Nuh uh! Seriously?
[ edited by menomegirl on 2010-09-11 17:45 ]
menomegirl | September 11, 08:32 CET
Oh, I don't know, it just sounds to me like maybe there's a whole lot of imbibing going on. ; )
BreathesStory | September 11, 08:58 CET
DaddyCatALSO | September 11, 11:50 CET
...Sorry, Joss. At least I ditched the boyfriend.
Thanks for the info about the Chinese roots, QuoterGal. The pidgin thing does make more sense when I think about the sound of the word.
Kairos | September 11, 13:08 CET
WhoIsOmega? | September 11, 13:15 CET
In conversation about The Avengers direction announcement at Comic-Con I had a friend ask me who SHE is. Not that that would be a bad thing of course, I was just surprised by his ignorance after he earlier had said he was a fan of Firefly when it was originally aired.
*Imagines a female version of Joss* *SWOON*
alcabongTV | September 11, 14:04 CET
People are ALWAYS mis-pronouncing my name. I will tell them twice (2) and then I don't waste my breath telling them again.
My name is "Nyan". I have been called everything from Nadine to Ninja. I kid you not. I work in a clinic so.....I have a name tag and everything. And yet... It cracks my co-workers up every time.
It's pronounced like Diane with an "N".
whedon is GOD | September 11, 14:42 CET
Nebula1400 | September 11, 14:48 CET
I doubt he'll become a Lucas or Spielberg (are there many more famous famous directors?), but if another one of them were to come along, I'd bet money on it being Joss. :)
Jaymii | September 11, 15:01 CET
"Thou hast wounded mine ear."
"They hurt Tim?"
"No. Mine ear." *gestures*
"Yeah, Tim Minear."
"Not Tim! Mine ear!"
"There's another Minear?"
...
I could go all day.
Xantastic1316 | September 11, 16:22 CET
(_ :^(D)
RollingInKittens | September 11, 16:29 CET
I'm with alcabongTV though....enjoying the fringe (and associated superiority, natch) while I still can.
Arcadia | September 11, 16:32 CET
"Yoss is my Boss."/giggle
When you put "Joss is My Boss" into the Bad Translator! for 56 translations you get "Gosubosu."
So - I think he should change his name to "Gosubosu" so people can remember it more easily.
QuoterGal | September 11, 16:48 CET
Wait wait being called Ninja is a bad thing?
...Oh, you probably just don't want anyone to know you're a ninja. Sneaky!
I think his confuzzlement came from getting used to pronouncing the names of my Czech relatives. "I know it's spelled Jan but he's my Uncle Yahn, okay?"
Kairos | September 11, 17:36 CET
It could be worse, though. I took a class at university called Communication: Interpersonal Relationships in the Buffyverse. We'd read academic journals then apply the knowledge with examples from the show. We watched Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest for our first class, then Chosen for the final after we turned in our term papers). All the students in the class were already fans who'd specifically requested to enroll in the course (run by a professor who's published several times at Slayage). And yet, this one guy without fail would always, always, always mispronounce Giles' name. And every time he did it, twenty college students would glare at him and say, "It's Giles, not Guyles!"
We eventually took to calling him the Buffybot.
[ edited by Emmie on 2010-09-12 05:03 ]
Emmie | September 11, 19:51 CET
Matt7325 | September 12, 05:49 CET
And in fairness, there aren't that many Josses because Joss is Joss, rather than short for Jocelyn/Josslyn (although if you've heard it spoken you surely shouldn't have much trouble spelling it).
I've always found that it's just common courtesy, as me mum used to say, to get someone's name right. Not all that hard, unless it's a language you're not used to pronouncing...
Here's my quandry on that QG (re: pronunciation specifically) - is it right to say it how the name's owner says it or right to say it how you do ? In the US for instance (this is 'Yoss' adjacent ;) you often seem to use hard letters in names that in Europe would be soft e.g. Scarlett Jo-hansson and not Yo-hansson, Ko-wal-ski and not Ko-val-ski, in e.g. 'Kovacs' the 'C's hard (like 'kick') rather than soft (like 'church'). Or is that regional (because i'm pretty sure they said Kovach in 'E.R.') ? And my own personal favourite, Rodney Mckay from Stargates SG1 and Atlantis. He (and everyone around him) says it "Mac-A" whereas I say it "Mac-eye" (cos that's just how it's pronounced in the UK, particularly in Scotland obviously - if I heard a British child say it their way i'd actually "correct" their pronunciation). It tickles me cos I can be reading something, hear "Mac-eye" in my head, realise it's actually referring to him and then have to go back and re-read it in my head as "Mac-A" ;).
And if it's how they say it, should we start saying "Paree" instead of Paris ?
[ edited by Saje on 2010-09-12 20:49 ]
Saje | September 12, 11:47 CET
So, y'know, could be worse. Also, have you ever YouTubed the progression of Eliza, in the ramp up to DH's premiere, as she gamely tries to correct one clueless talk show host after another on the pronunciation of her last name? "Rhymes with PUSH-ku." She eventually gave up, and cringeworthy variants ensued.
Tin Ear Tom | September 12, 13:33 CET
It does get tricky and potentially contradictory, or at least inconsistent, but here's how I approach this:
I pronounce a person's name how they do it - it's so personal, I defer to them. I would also pronounce a company name how they do it, as well - i.e., I pronounce Estée Lauder as Estay Lawder - though it seems wrong to me. (And yet Estée was American and the name was short for Esther, so go know.)
However, when you get to geographical names, it gets more complicated - I usually say the city/country/whatever name the way it is pronounced in the country where I am - i.e., in the U.S. I would say Pear-is, but in France, where I am speaking (my crappy illiterate version of) French I would say Par-ee.
There's no way to be a real purist about this one - unless you want to go and learn all the names natives use themselves for their own country, like Hyestan (or Hayastan, depending on who you talk to ; > ) for Armenia, etc. etc. And then you must be prepared to have very few people in your own country (like the U.S. or England) know what you're referring to. I have noticed that Armenians speaking English cal it Armenia, while they refer to it as Hyestan in Armenian.
My rule-of-thumb is to get as close as possible to what the entity itself would prefer, as long as you are able to make yourself understood by others, including and especially the folks you're speaking to.
Of course, in the case of Joss vs. Josh - Josh is just the wrong word altogether and not a question merely of pronunciation... ; >
QuoterGal | September 12, 16:05 CET
I pronounce a person's name how they do it - it's so personal, I defer to them.
Yeah, that's broadly how I do it too although until I know how they say it i'm obviously going to say it how I say it and even then, sometimes i'm going to struggle just because the "right" way is so ingrained into me (with McKay for instance, it's hard not to see how the Scots/Irish pronounce it as correct in some sense just because it's a Scots/Irish name. And if i'm honest, having gone to school in England and been told that how I say something is wrong just because it's not the English way, I may also have a wee chip on my shoulder about it ;).
With place names it varies a lot though, more context dependent maybe cos where do you draw the line ? I usually call Holland the Netherlands on here for instance (out of respect for the Dutch folk on here) whereas among my friends I might be more likely to say Holland (particularly when talking about football for some reason). I never pronounce it "Paree" except when exercising my own (woeful) French. And I always call Scotland Scotland even though a Scots Gaelic speaker might make a case for it being Alba (we're obviously both natives and neither English nor Gaelic are "official" languages so who wins ? Me cos English is spoken by vastly more people or them because Gaelic is in some sense more "native" ?).
Saje | September 13, 03:42 CET
SpendTheNightAlone | September 13, 06:49 CET
However, on Friday, I finally corrected her and she said some people just pronounce names or words differently, such as herb pronounced with the 'h' or without. I countered that 'Joss' was spelled differently than 'Josh' and should therefore be pronounced 'as written'. I don't know if I convinced her or not!
samatwitch | September 14, 23:39 CET
But I do have a little sympathy for the mispronouncers. For many lurky years, I pronounced Saje in my head as "Sah-jay" (soft j). Now I realize that everyone, including all six Saje's themselves, pronounce it Sage. So officially that's how I say it too, or how I would say it if I "said" it, but secretly in my head it's still Sahjay. It's very hard to change what you've been saying all along, even if you haven't been saying it out loud.
catherine | September 15, 04:10 CET
catherine, me too! I never pronounce anything instinctively right. And then if I try to go against my initial impulse, thereby circumventing the problem...that turns out to be wrong too. Because my "instincts" of course told me my initial impulse was wrong. ;P
I'm glad to finally (as of this moment) have an official(?) pronunciation for saje. It only occurred to me about a month ago that "sah-jay" might be wrong. After about five years. *rolls eyes* So he turns out to be a misspelled herb...
(Some years ago I was informed by a Cheyenne medicine man that they only use a type of sage that he called "man sage" in sweat ceremonies. It is a nicely smelling, single stemmed, upright growing herb.)
******
In other naming speculation...
Joss from babynames.com:
The meaning of the name Joss is Little Goth (?!)
The origin of the name Joss is English
Notes: Originally a diminutive of Jocelyn or Joshua. Joss Whedon, television writer. Joss Stone, singer.
Joss from babynamesworld.com:
Gender: Boy
Origin: Hebrew
Meaning: He will enlarge (My world. : ) )
Form of: Joseph
**Pronunciation: N/A** :D
BreathesStory | September 15, 05:29 CET
Also, 'man sage', like it. Wonder if there's an 'atheist sage' ? ;)
It's very hard to change what you've been saying all along, even if you haven't been saying it out loud.
True, McKay gives me no end of dissonance. If he ever drank Whyte and McKay's (whisky) in the same sentence I think my brain would dribble out my nose.
... I finally corrected her and she said some people just pronounce names or words differently ...
Yeah, differently to correct in that instance ;).
In the Joss case it's puzzling to me since 'Josh' is a fairly common name/diminutive spelled and pronounced one way and 'Joss' is a maybe unusual but hardly unheard of name (at least as a diminutive of Josslyn/Jocelyn) spelled and pronounced another and added to that, the 'sh' sound is widely used and understood, it's not like it's a sound that doesn't occur in English (i've given up trying to get southern mates to pronounce 'Loch' with the guttural 'ch' sound and though I know how Schrödinger - of cat fame ;) - should be said, i'll quite often just say it Schrohdinger, mainly, must be said, out of laziness) but as I say above, people really do pronounce names differently, even when they're spelled exactly the same so in principle I have a fair bit of sympathy for that idea (up until the point where the owner tells you how to say it anyway).
Saje | September 15, 05:53 CET
1. 'Josh' is just easier to say than 'Joss.' Literally. It uses less facial muscles. If you figure in inattention, tiredness, lack of tongue coordination and the like...
2. The two names sound so similar. If I was a non-native speaker, I would have a hard time hearing the difference.
3. 'Joss' is far less common than 'Josh' and people tend to see/hear what they expect.
4. There aren't enough cowboy movies/shows made anymore to educate the ignorant.*
That said...It's still kinda annoying.
*Apparently Joss is also a possible nickname for Josiah.
ETA clarification
[ edited by BreathesStory on 2010-09-15 15:34 ]
BreathesStory | September 15, 06:20 CET
Re: the rest, I dunno, 'Josh' and 'Joss' sound similar but they also sound different enough to be, y'know, different although i'd wager that 'Josh' is much more common in the US in general and also proportionately more common than Joss (for Josslyn/Jocelyn) over there too so that perspective may not cross the pond intact. We also may pronounce sibilants more distinctly too, early Wesley used to slightly overdo the 'c' in 'speciality' for instance in trying to highlight that difference (one of the few flaws in Alexis Denisof's accent IMO). This is the perennial problem with discussing accents across regions BTW - what sounds quite different to me may not to you and vice versa. Really must learn those phonetic thingamies you see in dictionaries one of these days ;).
I understand people just flubbing it though (i.e. making a mistake through tiredness etc.) that's easy to do with the simplest, most familiar words.
Hard to judge for us I think really, we're way too used to 'Joss'.
Saje | September 15, 07:02 CET
Me, too. Just can't get myself to pronounce it the other way, no matter how wise he is. :)
Plus I like sahjay. It reminds of Sahjhan, who is evil and funny. Just like Saje--except the evil part.
(I'm killing time on jury duty. Wonder how many dead threads I can visit...)
jcs | September 17, 09:15 CET
Yup, exactly - except that I retain the evil (and the robes) but remove the smoking and interesting skin issues. ; >
QuoterGal | September 17, 12:59 CET
"Gosubosu"
QuoterGal you rock my world
mariec | September 17, 14:38 CET
Bluey | September 17, 22:39 CET
catherine | September 18, 11:22 CET
(I'm killing time on jury duty. Wonder how many dead threads I can visit...)
Makes me wonder how that film would've turned out if Henry Fonda had wireless internet access.
Just like Saje--except the evil part.
Phase One: Appear not evil.
Complete.
(Muhaha. Muhahahahahahahaha. Muhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. *kef*)
Saje | September 18, 13:11 CET
Well, I didn't want to be the one to say it, but, um, yeah.
catherine | September 18, 19:32 CET