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October 06 2010

(SPOILER) For the discussion of Buffy #37. It's the second part of the 'Last Gleaming' arc (and it's written by Joss and Scott).

Won't have my copy until later but I read a bunch of spoilers for this issue and a lot of info is revealed in this one from the sound of it.
I, um....first comment? Really? I'm nervous. Well, I guess I'll go ahead and write up a summary of the issue, and then by the time I'm done, someone else will have beat me to it.

Okay! So, whoever said there were pages missing from the preview was correct. Just after Buffy says that the universe set her and Angel up, she goes on to say that they weren't out of control, but they were, but it was elemental and they were in each other. Spike, naturally, objects to hearing her get dreamy about Angel, and she apologizes and says she's still feeling like something in her is "...switched on and I don't know how to turn it off. I really shouldn't be telling you that, but...but you were the guy I told the things I wasn't supposed to tell. You're my dark place, Spike." She puts her hand on his shoulder. THEY KISS!

...Page turn. It's a daydream that Buffy is having. Spike has just finished explaining how to keep the world from being destroyed, and Buffy has missed most of it. Spike says its no mystery who she was thinking about, and then tells her he'll save the exposition for the group, and she should get to bed. This leads Buffy into a sex-with-Spike daydream, followed by her saying " brain's turning into Cinemax over here..." as Spike exits.

Next we see Dawn and Xander's talk, followed by Angel slaying the demon in Japan, followed by the group exposition during which Willow falls unconscious.

She wakes up in the other plane with Aluwyn, who tells her she'll soon have no way of getting there. Willow says the world's about to be swallowed by a hell dimension, and Aluwyn replies that the heroes won't let that happen, but that there's a third option: hell only pours in if the seed is removed. If the seed is destroyed, hell can never get into the world, but neither can any magic. "There would be vestiges, remnants of demonic power-- vampires, the Slayers already called-- but the connection to all other realms would be severed. Your world will lose something it doesn't know it needs. And those who draw their power from elsewhere-- the witches-- lose everything. It's not only Twilight you have to stop, Willow."

Willow asks if Aluwyn knows who will betray Buffy. The only response that we see is Aluwyn's sad face: she does know.

Willow regains consciousness and tells the gang that they have to protect the seed. We cut to Angel' fighting another massive demon, this time in France, then a monster in the middle of the ocean, then a horde in some large courtyard where Slayers apparently use longbows and fencing swords.

Cut back to the ship. Giles has sought out Faith to talk. She says that she's ready to be pointed at whatever threat there is, and he says that he knows this isn't what she wanted, but that afterward there will still be girls to help and guide. Faith says "Sure hope so," and then they're interrupted by Spike pointing out the window-- they've arrived.

The crater of Sunnydale has some blobby things crawling out, some demons popping out of multiple portals above, and the US military fighting them with guns, tanks, and fighter planes. Buffy looks down and thinks about how this is it, while Spike shouts orders to his bugs. Willow takes Buffy aside and repeats that they have to protect the seed-- from everyone, not just the demons. Buffy agrees and jumps out of the ship.

Spike grabs onto her, saying "Not alone, you don't!", and she flies down towing him and thinking heroic thoughts about the end. (She also thinks "Spike's totally touching my butt", but you really have to see her expression in that one to get the full humor from it.) Willow gets ready to follow, and Xander stops her and pleads to be taken along, because it's Sunnydale-- he can't be left out.

Spike and Buffy arrive in the crater. Spike is impressed by the damage he wreaked; Buffy asks where to find the seed. Before they can find it, the Master pops up and backhands Buffy, and Spike vamps out and says, "Oh, right. Protector." He attacks, and the Master repels him easily, saying that "it" said Buffy would come but was supposed to be with "the other one".

Buffy isn't visible; the Master is lecturing a bloody-faced Spike but apparently addressing Buffy. He's using the normal font, not the Twilight-looking one. "You think your new world is worthy of this power? You've created nothing. A soulless shell-- no matter what you might think of it. And this is what you bring for protection?"

Spike says he's not protection, but distraction, and Buffy returns and slams the Master's head into the ground. Spike states, "My hero."

We cut back to Angel. He's in the ruins of the same big city, but everyone alive appears to be human and everyone dead appears to be a demon. "Okay," he says, "Got to continue the fight." A cat jumps up to him as a bird flies over.

The cat is speaking, but it's using the Twilight font in a yellow voice bubble. "It'll be a fight, all right. Your work isn't nearly done." Angel says he liked it better when it was the dog. The bird lands on the cat and says, "Oh, I was just talking through those forms..." and the cat finishes "...Father."

Final page: the cat and bird blur out and morph together into the winged lion with a green fire mane that Buffy dreamed of early in the series. "The real me wasn't born yet. But I'm here now, Father. You can't deny the universe you created. You will finish what you started."
aaaaand reviewed. The entire plot also more or less summed up.
That's very thorough, thank you Kairos. I'm sure our posters and lurkers will be very grateful for your recap.
Oh goddess... I just read Kairos' summary. and HOLY MOTHER... I need to get this issue now. lol.
That's very thorough, thank you Kairos. I'm sure our posters and lurkers will be very grateful for your recap.

My pleasure!

So, discussion? Can we talk about how adorable Twilight Jr. is? Or, if we're thinking he's evil, can we talk about how his mane kind of reminds me of the BP logo?
In which issue did Buffy dream about the lion?
Pulzer - she tells about her dream to Xander in #6.
This issue was pretty fantastic. The Buffy/Spike interactions as well as that cute scene between Xander and Dawn, it's pretty clear that Joss knows how to make these guys mesh. Although, the Xander/Dawn talk about living a normal life was a little cliche and a little eye-rolly for me.

I wonder how the Master is alive, why is he the protector?

This whole thing seems to be kind of tragic already, because we already know the Fray future is happening.... it means somebody (Willow/Buffy) messes up big time, or gets hurt really badly. I wonder if it'll be Angel because of all the things Jeanty said in that Q&A.
So is the dialogue suitably Jossy?
So Jossy, it's practically concentrate.
Great review, Bitsy. Very thorough summary, Kairos.
Simon- Yup. I was worried, not being a fan of Scott Allie at all. But it seems pretty clearly... well, just the way Allie spelled it out. He wrote the scenes, Joss rewrote all the dialogue and tweaked. Best issue in a while. Still waiting on an explanation of Angel's behavior ("the Universe made us do it" seems to be somewhat more spelled out in this issue, but that's kinda lame), but other than that and the randomness of everyone suddenly knowing something mythology altering (Giles in "Twilight," Spike in "Last Gleaming"), it's excellent. Character interactions and small moments are great. Perhaps the whole season would've been better if the issues were more like this.
Spike and Buffy's adorable banter as well as the Master's appearance are making me unusually excited for this issue. Even if the plot tanks, the character moments will carry me through...!
I'm thinking the betrayer will be Giles now, given that he's talking to Faith privately. Grrrr, arrrrg! These issues can't come fast enough, but even so, I'm afraid of the ending. Will it be satisfying? Will it be a tragedy? Will it be both and neither?

I prefer happy endings, but that's not necessarily Joss' preference. I'm thinking to myself "prepare for beloved character death."
I like the idea of Joss; From Concentrate, Cazador. It's like a Jossy Juice.

...on second thought.
I sort of get tired of Gods that know the future and won't talk about it- this is a dramatic writing decision designed to ramp up tension. Hey, Willow, you asked if Aluwyn knew, you see she knows, and you did not ask her who it was?

So, the winged lion is Connor? "Father." :-)
Seems like a fun issue. Can't wait to read it for myself.

Simon, maybe you could tag Scott Allie's name to the post
Dana - I honestly thought that for about half a second ...~shame~
I'm really curious if he means father father, or if he was just created as a part of the Twilight dimension.
Simon, maybe you could tag Scott Allie's name to the post

Did Scott actually contribute to this issue? The info on the Dark Horse site for #38 & #39 say he's a co-writer but not for #37. Unless the actual physical copy says otherwise?
Yes, Scott co-wrote this issue with Joss.
They both did well, then. It's a great issue!
I think a big clue as to what will eventually happen in the next few issues lies in issue 10 of Season 8. I believe on page 22 there is a scene where Buffy sees herself in the future lying on the ground crying and scratched up. In the background of the scene, there appears to be a cracked egg. Buffy asks, "What happens to me here?" and she is told by their guide Robin, "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." Buffy then asks Willow if she is the one and Willow denies it. The overall sense I got at the end of the issue as they leave is that Buffy's friendship with Willow will end in the future, and it looks like the current arc will fulfill that.
Yes, indeed. Scott Allie: Co-scripted. I'm really happy for him that people are enjoying this issue. I hope lots of people email him today and tell him he's great.
Cheers for everyone's replies.
Interestingly, in Buffy's dream in "Always Darkest" she is in the same chamber wearing the same outfit as in that vision of herself in issue 10, and she is scratched up too as she falls to the ground before seeing Caleb, Angel and Spike.
Another possible clue that Willow may be the one who brings about disaster for Buffy and seal the timeline leading to the Fray universe is in the Willow standalone issue (story written again by Joss) where the black knight Gnog argues with Aluwyn about letting Willow pass. In the fight between Willow and Gnog, he asks her, "Can't you understand what a threat you pose? Care you nothing for your world?"
It seems like most liked this issue a lot, and I agree with them for the most part. Like previous folks said, the character moments are great and really drive the issue. I guess my only problem with it is that I feel like nothing really happened. I don't feel like I understand things any more than I did after #36. I need #37 NOW!
Okay, I've been thinking about it, and maybe my love of felines has skewed my judgment but I'm still not convinced that the green-fire gryphon is evil. It's the same being that's been speaking to Angel and guiding him, but Whistler (the true Whistler, we were told) had Angel on the same path, and why would a demon sent to balance good and evil be interested in the end of our world?

The dogvoice and other signs implied that Angel's guide was the PTBs. Now we're hearing that it's Angel and Buffy's baby universe. Can both of these things be simultaneously true? Could the union of Twilight's avatars have resulted in a physical form for the divine rulers of the Buffyverse?

The issue ends with the words "Finish what you started." What, exactly, did Angel start? Perhaps the Gryphon is here to make the Champion save the world after all.
Gryphon? Is that something like Angel's tatoo?
Joss has been leaving clues all around about Willow betraying Buffy in the end of Season 8. In issue 10 of the Fray arc, Harth talks to Dark Willow about his Slayer memories where he says, "I remember fighting you. In the dream, you hurt me. Not just fighting--you're connected to someone I love. And that's the one, the Slayer of Slayers. That's who I am in the dream. That's who's coming." In the page before that, Fray tells her sister that her four-armed ape pet is named after "Gates," the last great watcher who sacrificed himself at the battle of "Starbucks." My guess is that Giles is "Gates" and that he is the one close to Buffy who dies, possibly in the hands of Willow.
I see a lot of "good issue" responses to this. Me? Not so. I'm not comfortable with this. I've read it three times since getting it, going through it again as I type to this to maybe see something else in it. This is more of a setting up issue, so it's not good yet because there hasn't been any pay off.

The dialog was Jossy yes, but at times felt a bit like a caricature of Joss' dialog. Also not big on the Buffy getting all Cinemax in her head about Spike. And that is not an attack on Spuffy shippers, it comes more from my own dislike of who Buffy is as a person than which dating game contestant she should pick. It also sucked knowing that Spike's plan was told but we don't get to hear it because we were watching a fantasy. Xander and Dawn having their moment is such a set up. We all know that there are no happy couples in the Whedonverse. Every person Xander has loved has died. Dawn should be running for the hills. I was kind of excited by the Willow magic out moment because of the promises made earlier on in the seires and hinted throughout. I feel like I don't have time to emphatize/symphatize with anyone in this because it's all starting to pick up. And is it me or is Angel getting played from every possible angle?

Some loose ends bug me, no pun intended, such as who the heck is the dude with the mustache eavesdropping on Xander and Dawn? How did the Master come back? I'm not all that concernacus about how Spike got the ship and the bugs because Lynch's run on the Spike title starts up soon, but I'm still itching to know.

Just realized on the Jeantry cover that the two cropses in the front are of Willow and Xander.

[ edited by The Goose on 2010-10-06 21:19 ]

[ edited by The Goose on 2010-10-06 21:19 ]
I think the mustachioed gent was that general army guy that was with Amy and Warren.

I forgot this was the dead people Jeanty cover! My shop didn't have any variants, argh I wanted that one.
The mustache dude is the General.
I almost don't want Friday to get here for me to buy this.
Okay, that's who I thought it was but wasn't sure, didn't remember him having a mustache. Thanks patxshand.
Well, I did like the character moments in this issue, but I am still very underwhelmed by the (very confusing) plot. Seed of wonder? Baby dimensions? Prophecies? And seriously, what is the deal with "The Queen is dead. Long live the Queen." That is killing me...I Need Answers!
5X5B, "The Queen is dead, long live the Queen" probably refers to the historical practice in Europe of conflating the moment of an old ruler's death with the recognition of a new ruler as sovereign -- supporting the fiction that kingship is perpetual and un-interruptable. I thought that Aluwyn was suggesting that if the world is destroyed, a new world will take its place, and eventually the rupture will be glossed over.

I loved this issue!
huh...yeah I want answers too! Reading this just raised more questions...

Ok, so I assumed the gryphon thing WAS Twilight (an avatar, or whatever), and that it had been all along- do we know for certain that Whistler was really Whistler? How? Anyway, so I went back and reread the NFFY arc- interesting!

It has the dream sequence with Buffy dreaming of the gryphon at the end, and the new info casts the whole arc in a different light- it looks to me like what Gigi and Roden were up to was not to get rid of Buffy to be the leaders of the slayer army or something, but to be the couple who birthed twilight. So (Tw)Angel orchestrates things so that they end up dead! We also have Buffy telling Xander that she is also having the dreams that Genevive had been having- a gryphon appearing to her and referring to her as the Queen. Which seems to me like twilight (the universe to be, not angel) sort of playing it's options. (Grr I hate this sentient universe thing!) I figure the Queen thing refers to the mother of twilight. But hey, maybe not!

I'm curious about this speech of Harth's in TOYL- it doesn't seem that obvious to me that that means Willow will betray Buffy and they won't be friends anymore. But it's intriguing! The conversation with the black night, to me, seems like it could as easily refer to the threat of her going dark, so I don't see it as showing anything definitively. I can see Giles trying to break the seed and WIllow trying to stop him though- in fact I think it seems likely that this is what happens and what the fighting Giles cover is a picture of...

I got the Chen cover of this one, but now I wish I hadn't so I could check out this dead people thing!
I have my copy of Buffy Season 8 #37,"Last Gleaming Part II of V"

First of all,I really liked the issue.This was the first one that Scott Allie co-wrote with Joss right?Well, they did a great job.One of the highest complements I can give the comics is when the characters sound like themselves and the actors who play them and they sounded like themselves to a T.Things like,"'Bed? For sleep! Alone! Yes... Tired. Super tired. Need to rest" and,"God... My brain's turning into CINEMAX over here" are so Buffy and so SMG's performance of Buffy.I can imagine her reading that aloud.And this is true for all the characters in the issue.So kudos on that.

The issue itself was great.We are getting a lot of info in this one and now,at least to me,things are starting to come together and make sense.Georges in his Q/A at Slayalive said the next issues are all meat and he was right.This was steak.This issue also made it seem clear to me about how the Fray future is coming with the whole explanation from Saga Vasuki to Willow.

It's clear this issue is setting up all our potential betrayers for next issue and #39.

And boy, I am fearful for Angel.I love how Angel is trying to fix things in this issue and save slayers.I noticed he dodged answering that one slayer on what's happening and where the demons came from and did it in his Angel way(again,could hear DB delivering that ).But the way this issue ended with the baby universe taking it's true form(from Buffy's dream) and confirming it was the force behind the talking animals and ordering Angel to finish his job.Well,definite betrayal candidate.

On the Buffy/Spike front.I'm sure everyone has their take on this.I have mine and as a B/A shipper I'm happy with what was shown.

We already knew Buffy is physically attracted to Spike.Season 6 and the threesome dream panel from issue 3 already showed that.So day dreaming about sex with Spike isn't out there at all.But I think this issue showed that claims that Buffy doesn't care about Spike are false too.

I'm sure the debates will continue on the type of love but I don't think anybody can deny that she cares very deeply about Spike.

I thought this issue had a perfect nod as well to the episode,"Afterlife" where Buffy told Spike that she was in heaven and he was the only one she told.Great call back IMO.

The irony is that Spike doesn't know that he means a lot to Buffy since this happens in her head.

I think this is what Georges meant from his last Q/A.

As we learn in the issue,The Master is the protector of the seed.

I'm still wondering how The Master is actually back.He's the protector of the seed but how did he become that and how is he even back?

Overall a great issue.
yes, why/how is the master back?? someone made an interesting point re: the master talking in twilight lettering before, but not here- could be nothing though.

Was thinking about what I said above about whistler not being himself- I take it back. I think I get it (sort of, dimly, maybe)- 1) twilight appears to angel, tries to talk him into it's agenda (via the dog, etc) 2) whistler comes to angel, says, what you have to do is go ahead and work with twilight to achieve the end of magic in the world, in order to save buffy. and then...

in the last issue angel went along with buffy and abandoned their baby universe (grrr. sorry. hard to type with a straight face. baby universe??) to go back and fight- which resulted in a situation likely to end all magic on earth, twangel's stated goal. So actually, everything so far may well be exactly what angel wanted to happen, which would be creepy and make him very untrustworthy.

Is this all obvious to everyone else and I'm just way behind? Or is there some really huge reason why none of this makes sense?

I think it's time for me to actually reread some really old ones.
The best thing about this issue was Mary's letter. Not so much Scott's answer because, yeah, I do believe that Spike and Buffy are 100% the key relationship, just not in the comic.
aphasia- no, you're right, none of this makes sense.
That's okay. Some people believe Santa Claus is real. :-P
I enjoyed this episode, it was funny and full of exposition (not all questions were answered of course) and ended with a fight. What more could I ask? We are now hurtling madly toward the end of a very very long season 8, and I'm actually getting excited about getting all the reveals/answers.
The Dark Shape-That was a little uncalled for.
Re: comments that this issue was just teeing up the finale:

That's OK if we keep in mind that typically 3+ written issues equate to 1 TV episode. So in that light each episode equates roughly to one act on TV. It's probably best to read these as TPB compilations because each issue won't necessarily feel complete as a standalone work. They build over time.
The Dark Shape, you're timed out. I'd appreciate it if the other shipping commentary doesn't continue, as well.
what if the closest, most unexpected, is Spike? not only would it be the most unexpected, because out of everyone we believe he is the only one that will stay true to Buffy throughout anything, but it would also be unexpected that HE is the closest as well. And also in the IDW books there's talk of him maybe not having a soul anymore
I really enjoyed this issue but like others, find that I have MORE questions than answers. I'd say Scott A did a great job, whatever he contributed to this issue. It's nice to be knee deep in a Joss centric story again!

During the Buffy sex fantasy, I was strangely reminded of season 7 and the episode storyteller, as it also involved a sexual fantasy. Interesting that Buffy describes Spike as her "dark place" and more interesting that she would just sit and daydream about sex rather than listen to what Spike is saying about saving the world. *I* would have like to have heard what Spike said about it, lol.

The snake lady probably gave us the most information this issue as we now know the seed will allow the gates of hell to open wide. That little conversation between Will and the snake is a lot to digest, maybe things will become more clear next issue. All in all I really enjoyed this one.
I think it's pretty clear Willow's going to be the closest, most unexpected betrayal, what with the Fray story, Robin's and Aluwyn's statements and everything. What we should be looking for is why. I'm sure there are clues hiding around here somewhere.
I'm still thinking that the closest and most unexpected would be Buffy betraying herself.
I am so confused.

Right, so there was this other original dimension (OD) in the beginning, which is where the Seed came from. And then it created the Earth because that OD sucked for some reason, but it brought all the demons to this world. Now the space-frak has created a third reality in the form of a flaming green-maned Gryphon calling itself Twilight. And that caused a rip between the OD and this dimension, and the demons from this dimension don't want the demons from the OD swarming in. And the Seed is using the Master to protect itself from Twilight and it's "parents" in the form of Buffy and Angel. Wait. What?!? o_O

Awesome issue though. :D
I think the world creation story (a la seed of wonder) is kind of an expansion of the Buffy mythos. The demons were here and then the humans came and the demons were banished...... I think this is just saying the Seed of Wonder is what brought those original demons.

[ edited by Cazador on 2010-10-07 04:36 ]
I got to read the issue and it was awesome! This had so many wonderful little moments and I found the whole thing really exciting.

The Buffy/Spike scenes were really good and I think Spuffies must be delighted about Buffy's fantasies. Spike's anger over Buffy/Angel was mostly in Buffy's head but I do think he still has feelings for her because he made a comment in 8.36 about how it wasn't a treat for him to smell Angel on her. Nevertheless, Buffy wants Spike to be pissed off over her sleeping with Angel and that's a very good sign for Buffy/Spike fans that she's not over him.

LOVED that we got even more text saying Buffy and Angel were under the glow's influence during their sexathon. I really don’t think people could dispute that now so I hope those arguments have been laid to rest.

Xander has to be a major player in the finale of this season or Joss wouldn’t have had him enter the Hellmouth with Willow. This was a nice callback to 8.04 when he didn’t go through the portal with Buffy. Like most of this issue, I found the scene to be a really exciting and uplifting moment for Xander *pumps fist in the air* but also really foreboding, too. We know something terrible is coming our way so whilst this issue has a lot of truly awesome moments there is the feeling of tragedy looming over the whole thing. It’s kind of heartbreaking watching these characters enter the Hellmouth, knowing that something horrible is going to happen between them once they get down there. It reminds me a lot of Revenge of the Sith and the feeling you get when you watch that and you know how it ends :(

I’m finding Angel’s whole situation really kind of devastating and I know a lot of people are really angry with him right now, and they have a right to be, but I do feel for him that he was played so badly. Angel didn’t want to hurt anybody (“that’s where you lose me”) and look what he ended up doing? He terrorised Buffy, he let innocent people die, he spent a year wearing a mask and “posing” as a super villain... and look where it got him. He didn’t save the world, he ended it. I don’t expect people to feel for him but I feel for the character because I adored the guy so much and to see him fall so low is really kinda heartbreaking. I'm not going to be making excuses for what he's done and he deserves all the animosity he gets but to see him duped so badly is really hard for me. Especially when Whistler helped play him because that is such a huge betrayal, IMO. And now he's about to do something even worse and I think he’s just at a total loss and is going to sink even lower... *sigh*

It was nice seeing Aluwyn again and Jeanty nailed some of Willow's expressions in that scene. It’s also textual that Willow can be transported to that dimension without sex (like at the end of WatG) so I think that makes Willow’s behaviour in ToYL even worse. She “liked the other way better” and that kinda stinks for Kennedy that it wasn’t even a requirement, but simply something Willow preferred. I wonder if Aluwyn is playing her here or is sincerely upset about what is happening?

The Faith/Giles scene was just great. I loved how Jeanty drew Faith's reflection in the mirror (I don't care what people say about him, that guy can really create the mood of the scene so well) and I thought it was such a nice moment for both characters. I think Faith got very used to isolating herself in prison and spending a great deal of time in her cell reflecting on what she had done. So I really liked that Faith removed herself from all the chaos on the ship and was sitting quietly by herself as she thought about everything. I’m so glad they included that in this issue but I am worried that Giles is going to use Faith and he better not! Grrr!

Buffy ramming the Master's head into the ground... funny!

Brilliant issue! And I've heard that Spike's "My hero" line was something Scott Allie wrote so yay! Great line, Scott!

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-10-07 06:14 ]
The most amazing art panel in this one is of Willow during her conversation with the snake, when she says "Yay?". The look on her face is so spot on accurate that I can't stop looking at it. Georges really did a great job.
Wait, doesn't Angel have a tattoo of a Griffin on his back?
I just noticed that it's also kind of strange that Kennedy and Willow don't have any dialogue together, seems she was kind of just forgotten about.

vampmogs: I've often wondered where you came up with the username... I just keep picturing a Final Fantasy moogle with vampire teeth and it's overly adorable.
That made me giggle! "Vamp" is just because BtVS has got vampires in it and "Mogs" is part of me real name so I combined the two. If I could go back and change it I would (I made it up in 2005 when I was 15!) but it’s how people know me now so I'm stuck with it! :D
Angel's tattoo is a winged lion, and (with the exception of the letter A it straddles) its design was taken almost directly from the symbol of St. Mark in the Book of Kells. Quel coincidence....
CBR review of the issue.
That was a really great, even-handed review, Mogs! Good times for Spuffies, hard times ahead for Angel fans, Xander is a major player, Willow and Aluwyn reunited and any Faith/Giles is good for me!
Buffyfantic: Thanks for the review. I sort of kind of agree with them, as much as it pains me, and as much as my loyalty keeps me hanging on...
What we are seeing so far in this arc are the odds being stacked against Buffy's chances of being able to prevent the apocalyptic future seen in Fray's timeline, kinda like Season Five when Buffy was trying to prevent the end of the world and save Dawn. If history is any guide, then Buffy will again defy the odds and expectations of others and succeed in the end at the cost of the lives of some of her closest friends and family.

[ edited by jettamesis on 2010-10-07 06:00 ]
Thanks eilowyn *hugs*
richiepalmer said-

And also in the IDW books there's talk of him maybe not having a soul anymore

about spike- I wondered if the master's saying "a soulless shell--no matter what you might think of it" to buffy while looking straight at spike might be a reference to that- although on the surface he seems to be talking about baby universe twilight. I'm a spike fan! Don't bite my head off! But it did cross my mind...
I thought the soulless shell was about the new universe.
I thought soulless shell was referring to the new universe as well.

But another question I had was about the page with Buffy's fantasy. How much of it is fantasy? Did she even say all the elemental stuff? Did she say dark place? Or was that all part of her fantasy as well? I actually thought it was all fantasy when I read it, the whole page, until I read a review. Now I don't know.

The Giles/Faith conversation sounds to me like they are planning on getting rid of Buffy. Am I the only one who thinks that?
I thought the soulless shell could have been Buffy, lol. Can a Universe be soulless? How does that work?
I think it's clear that we have both a Willow motive for betraying Buffy (attempt to prevent Buffy from ending magic), and a Giles/Faith one (Buffy is obviously a loose cannon now and a danger to the entire universe)

Which means it's probably none of them.

Nor will it be Xander, to save Dawn, because that's what it would look like from the upcoming cover.

So, I'm guessing now it would have to be Dawn or Spike who'll betray Buffy. But then, I considered and dismissed Angel as Twilight in favor of Riley or Hank Summers what seems like a decade ago...
But another question I had was about the page with Buffy's fantasy. How much of it is fantasy? Did she even say all the elemental stuff? Did she say dark place? Or was that all part of her fantasy as well? I actually thought it was all fantasy when I read it, the whole page, until I read a review. Now I don't know.

Xane, I think it is all the fantasy because first we see Buffy is sitting down with the towel around her neck and then we have the panel of her standing up and touching Spike's shoulder, telling him her her dark place and then the kiss...then we go back to Buffy sitting with the towel around her neck, kissy fantasy still playing above her head and her having missed Spike telling her how they can save the world.

Great issue ! Loved and want more.

[ edited by tranquillity on 2010-10-07 07:56 ]

[ edited by tranquillity on 2010-10-07 07:57 ]
I thought soulless shell was referring to the new universe as well.

well yeah, clearly, I just thought it might have a double (or more) meaning to it (which would be signature Joss style writing)
RE: Spike Fantasy-
If you look closely, the coloring of the last panel (the kiss) is different from the rest. Judging by that, I'd say it's just the kiss that's the fantasy, the rest is legit.
vampmogs and cazador- I also find it interesting that Kennedy is simply an afterthought in this series. She has no real role.

As to the betrayer, I am sort of with menomegirl that it could be Buffy herself- unless it is either Dawn (likeliest) or Angel. If it is the "closest," who is closer- Willow or Xander? So, not either of those. Dawn is closest in my mind, since she is family.
Reaction and Observations to issue 37:

- Buffy and Spike are wearing similar colors: orange and jeans. It's been their thing since the show.

- Buffy has been criticized for calling Sunnydale "Suckydale", seeing as it was her home for seven years and in it are her mother's, Tara's, and Jenny's graves, as well as the bodies of Anya and Amanda and so many people that Buffy knew and loved. Buffy had lamented the loss of Sunnydale in #1, stating that she missed "home", she does have fond memories of Sunnydale, and her life in it, while difficult, was much simpler than it is now. I think calling it Suckydale has more to do with yet another crisis located there than the town itself. Sunnydale is where evil is born and keeps coming back to destroy the world, I can see why Buffy is a bit resentful.

- "Who never got a higher education," I never thought that Angel didn't get a higher education, but it fits with the way his father used to be so disappointed in him.

- I thought it was insensitive of Spike to say that to Buffy, but it shows how upset he is with her. I don't think it's just jealousy, but also disappointment. She's his hero and she made a gigantic mistake.

- Spike takes Xander's old role as Buffy's criticizer, and he does it exactly like Xander: harsh and straightforward. Unlike Willow who's gentler in her criticism of Buffy. It's seems fitting now that someone had to say something to Buffy seeing as Xander can't bring himself to criticize Buffy at all, and Willow saving all her anger for Angel.

- Buffy's fantasies about Spike are so funny, I don't know if it's her or just Twilight's affect. She really wants Spike to still have feelings for her and be jealous and pissed at Angel. It's far more flattering than her dream where Spike and Angel choose each other instead of her.

-Spike seems to be over her, though I don't think so, his cheap shots at her show how jealous and disappointed he is.

- The Xander/Dawn scene oozes of Xander/Anya in The Gift, and I know it's all about a couple being too happy until Joss tears them apart. I should go "Awww" now, but as Xander said, it's too soon. And I'm still waiting for Joss to explore this ship.

- The guy eavesdropping on them is the general who was with Warren and Amy. I wonder what's up with that.

- Spike is rather suspicious, and only Xander noticed that. It seems that with Spike arriving with all the information and a chance to save the world, the other characters are so happy they don't wanna question anything. Xander, being the one who sees, noticed that something is off about Spike's know-it-all attitude. Even Spike's three words didn't answer Xander's question.

- The fact that Xander doesn't get upset and call Spike names after Spike called him "Little Man" shows how much he'd grown past the petty name-calling –which I greatly miss, I like a little immaturity in Xander- and it started since S7. Xander's character growth moves constantly and gradually forward ever since Seeing Red, and it's something that S8 gets so right.

- I'm not sure Spike can be the betrayer, unless there's a twist. He's hiding something all right, but he seems so devoted to Buffy it's hard to imagine him as the betrayer.

- Willow, on the other hand, learns that the Seed of Wonder is the source of all magic. It's what Twilight wants to get rid of, we knew about that since the beginning. Willow asks about the betrayer, and it seems that it's going to be Willow, which is a call back to: "Is it you?" Buffy asked Willow in Anywhere But Here. "No. I won't betray you."

- I'm a little disappointed in the Giles/Faith scene. I thought they were going to discuss Giles lying to Faith and using her to search for the Queen and kill her. Instead they're talking about Faith's retirement and playing teacher to the other troubled slayers. Their scene is similar to Xander/Dawn, it promises a future after this, where Faith can be happy guiding lost girls.

- "There'll still be girls to help. To guide." "Sure hope so." Hmmm, I can see a reverse in Buffy's spell in Chosen. Perhaps S9 will probably be a return to Buffy and Faith being the only slayers.

- Spike is back to the guy who never leaves Buffy alone. Wherever she goes, he's there. He follows her everywhere offering help, support and company.

- "Take us home." I would've loved it more if it was just Xander and Willow, because Sunnydale is literally their home, they were born and raised there.

- Xander demanding he goes with Willow can be seen as contrast to refusing to accompany Buffy in #4. But in #4 it was stated that the portal that will take them to "Sunnydale" can only take two, and Xander rationally asked Buffy to take someone who's a better fighter, because saving Willow is more important. Here, anyone can go, and Buffy needs all the help she can get, and Xander is going to help.

- Aww, I loved Spike's "Did I do that?" Adorable.

- I also enjoy Spike acting tough and ending up in the mercy of the Master until his hero, Buffy, comes and saves his life. There are so many scenes like this in the show, except replace Spike with Xander. "My hero." Aww, all these similarities between Xander and Spike make my heart melt.
vampmogs and cazador- I also find it interesting that Kennedy is simply an afterthought in this series. She has no real role.

Well, there are reasons for that. The first being that Willow kept Kennedy at a distance from Buffy because of how she blames her for Tara's death. The second being that, unfortunately, Willow has been a little preoccupied and Kennedy really isn’t one of her highest priorities right now. I’m sure if you asked Willow she’d deny it but I think having Kennedy absent from most of the season is a good way to depict that. Especially when Willow has been “dabbling” with Aluwyn and in Goddesses and Monsters Aluwyn tells Willow to “forget about her.”

What I love is that at the start of the comics the majority of fans still hated Kennedy and Willow/Kennedy and now most people want it to work out. One of the biggest successes of S8 is having so many people completely fall in love with Kennedy, IMO.
vampmogs: different perspectives are odd and that's what makes them so helpful. I'ven't noticed any real change in the fandom's attitude towards Kennedy. She's been absent enough that I cna't see how much change could happen, but maybe I'm just projectign the fact that my own opinion of "She's cute and Willow needs a little charity whocka-whocka but I don't see it long-term" hasn't budged. (Then again, do *any* of my attitudes ever budge?)
Can I express my total disdain and my rage against Joss? He has completely destroyed the character of Angel, the character I've loved and cared the most in all the buffyverse. In a bit of an eye Joss transformed Angel from a hero in his own show to a villain in s8, twisted him from an amazing complex character in a dogdly simple, regressed him in his relationship and life only focusing on Buffy... I can go on and on. Joss, this is CHARACTER ASSASSINATION. You already did it to Cordelia in AtS s4 and now Angel...

Now AtS is going to return to DH. I am scared of it. Please, if you don't like him, well, for the sake of a wonderful character, an amazing show and who, like me, are invested in both of them, please, stay away from them.
Aradia - well, technically Angel's been a villain a few times on both Buffy and his spin-off. And while I do think Cordelia's character got lost along the way - she wasn't herself when she came back in season four anyway, so technically her character ended in those few first episodes, all ghost Cordy aside.

If Angel's getting his own Dark Horse series, I'm sure they have something planned for him. We'll just have to wait and see.

I'll keep buying these comics, and it's not like I don't have issues with them myself, but I do want to see what's ahead.
YES, he was a villain... as Angelus. But he never, with his soul, threatened the world and killed people... Ah, yes in s5...under Joss direction, anyway. As for Cordelia... I know she wasn't Cordy but Jasmine, sort of... But it was the last season for her... and Joss dismissed her in the worst possible way
DaddyCatALSO-Kennedy has become a very well-defined and liked character in the comics. She's grown beyond the bratty, pushy, annoying character of season 7. She's really kind of awesome.
So Giles and Faith will betray Buffy and I have no idea why the Master is there but it was a fab issue.
I couldn't respond yesterday, but without adding really anything to the conversation I thought this issue was fantastic. Seems like the comics have more opportunity for special effects callbacks. Buffy the TV show had a giant prop in the Troll Hammer which reappeared later in the show but having a flaming gryphon reappear, that was pretty awesome. And just the way that dialogue doesn't feel wasted anymore cause we're starting to get the call backs to the earlier issues. I'm starting to feel rewarded for sticking with the series which I feel was a great part of many folks' frustration - going on two years and still not feeling like they've been rewarded for following along.
aradia, Angel has killed plenty of people with a soul. In the Boxer Rebellion he was killing “evil doers” and feeding off them. Then in AtS S2 he locked the lawyers in with Darla and Dru and allowed them all to be massacred.

DaddyCatALSO, what menomegirl said. I frequent places like Buffyforums and there's so many fans who have said how they loathed Kennedy in S7 but the comics have made them love her. Heck, I was one of those fans! I don’t know what it is but somehow they are making her far more likeable and charming.

It's not just Kennedy, either. I've seen a lot of people come to adore Dawn in the comics when they found her annoying in the TV show.

[ edited by vampmogs on 2010-10-07 18:39 ]
Angel threatened and killed people in Angel season 2, aradia. Theres always been a side of darkness to Angel. He's been a questionable character since Buffy 1x07 when he had a look of hunger on his face after Darla threw Joyce's unconscious body to him.

If anything we should be more worried of him being whitewashed of his crimes rather than Joss dirtying him up. Consequences and all that.

[ edited by eddy on 2010-10-07 19:44 ]
If anything we should be more worried of him being whitewashed of his crimes rather than Joss dirtying him up.

I know that's what I'm worried about.
"What I love is that at the start of the comics the majority of fans still hated Kennedy and Willow/Kennedy and now most people want it to work out. One of the biggest successes of S8 is having so many people completely fall in love with Kennedy, IMO."

I am not sure this is the case; Kennedy has been in so little fo the comic that there is no real reason to fall in love with her. And in a "show" that is based so much on relationships, this one is AWOL. Further, while htere is a reason for Kennedy's absence in the text, from the reader's persepctive there is no real reason to care about her. She is, as a character, not important to this story.
I liked the issue overall. Could've done with less monster smashing. And a yet-to-exist baby universe pulling all the strings and following Angel around giving him instructions is maybe a little too crazypants even for me. But in general there was a lot of good stuff in there. The Giles and Faith scene was super creepy. She's his weapon? Is he just another father figure who uses her for his own ends? I don't like thinking Giles will betray Buffy even though he's definitely capable of it. And with the rift between him and Buffy I'd assumed she trusted him less nowadays anyway. But yeah, things do not look good for Giles.

And I guess that fight scene at the end answers whether The Master is really The First. I'm so sad.
Eddy, no, he didn't.
Vampmogs, I didn't speak about the Angel confused after the curse, I'm talking of the Angel who spent a century blaming himself and full of dispair after that.
Menomegirl and Eddy: this is the real problem: That Joss succeeded in his destruction of this amazing character
aradia, If I lock you in a room with a lion and it eats you, did I not set out to kill you?
Darla and Dru didn't need any real help. The lawyers were doomed,indeed. Door locked or unlocked. ,
aradia, So you don't think Angel should feel any remorse for what he did?
No.I think he's utterly OOC in s8.
Cuz kidnapping and torturing Linwood after Connor's abduction...or trying to smother Wes for that matter...utilizing clearly dark and dangerous magicks...not to mention that Angel has, in fact, killed humans even with a soul (Season 5 opener for example. Just cuz the guy was a dick doesn't mean he wasn't human)...nah, Angel's not a dark guy with some seriously screwed up tendencies....

Saying the lawyers were all doomed by default sounds like something of a stretch really and, more importantly than that, is Angel's intent. Angel intentionally trapped them, making SURE they would all die.

[ edited by trunkstheslayer on 2010-10-07 22:31 ]
vampmogs said:
It's not just Kennedy, either. I've seen a lot of people come to adore Dawn in the comics when they found her annoying in the TV show.

I'm finding there is a subtle shifting in the fans over the entire cast. And what's been happening in recent issue's has really ramped it up.

A lot of people are sooo sick of Buffy and her Vampire Boys that they are just switching off from the characters altogether, and perhaps realizing that nothing is ever going to change on that front, are focusing on other characters instead.

Same goes with Willow. She has grown to far apart from who she was in the beginning. Maybe not underneath all her magical godliness, but at least on the surface level. She used to be one of the most beloved characters, if not the most. Right now? I doubt it.

Of course it all depends on what Buffy site one is reading at the time as well. 'Tis a fractured fandom after all.
Did the Seed of Life create all the Big Bads to protect itself? Has it been manipulating everyone from the start in the same way that Jasmine did in Angel?
What is the likelihood that all questions will be answered in the remaining 2 books? I don't see it. What are the odds that at least one major character will die? I would make it even. My guess? Dawn most likely, as a sacrifice to stop whatever is going on; Giles second. It cannnot be one of the main Scoobies (outside of Giles, who seems to have a diminished role in this series), or the entire next season will be devoted to bringing that Scooby back. And if this season does not end with the end of magic, then next season will, returning the verse back to how it was when it began.
Did anyone else think it was interesting that Buffy mentions "after-effects", and then goes to fantasy-land at the perfect time to miss the key details of Spike's plan? What if the Twilight glow thing is still affecting her ... and actively preventing her from understanding what's really going on here?

I also liked that Aluwyn (who is presumably trustworthy here, since she presumably doesn't have a personal stake in this fight?) specifies that Slayers (who are already called) will stay Slayers, and vampires will stay vampires. It's nice to have that spelled out. But she said nothing about Dawn -- since the Key, the source of her existence, came from another dimension, what would the end of magic mean for her? Then again, what vampires and slayers have in common is that they're both part human (from this dimension), mixed with superpowers that originate from another dimension. Dawn's essence may come from another dimension, in some sense, but she was also "made" partly from (the human part of) Buffy. So maybe she falls into the same category as slayers and vamps? Either way, Dawn has been (literally) huge this season, and I'm expecting her to have a major role in the finale (I'm guessing betrayer, savior of the world, or both).

Also, in terms of how this all ties into the Frayverse: if Slayers stay Slayers (but no new ones are called), and vampires stay vampires--could this mean that, even if the end of magic happens now, events like "the Battle of Starbucks" and people like "the Watcher Gates" are still a long way in the future? And that by Fray's time, the two things (end of magic and death of the last Slayer) had been falsely conflated?
menomeirl said (a long time ago)
I'm still thinking that the closest and most unexpected would be Buffy betraying herself.

at the end of #27, Twilight says "this battle doesn't end with Buffy laying down her sword- it ends with her turning the sword against herself"

erendis- I have been wondering about the assumption that the Fray future is determined right here and now- I don't necessarily think it has to be either, and you make a good case for why.

[ edited by aphasia on 2010-10-08 19:59 ]
Cool post 100.
Spike and Buffy rule, i love all their scenes together.
I still hate Angel, would love for him to die a painful death. I doubt it since he's getting his own series(which i definitely won't be buying) in season 9.
Xander seemed suspicious in wanting to go to Sunnydale.
Dawn is doomed.
Is the Master also superpowered like Buffy and Angel cus he was able to hurt Buffy, and Spike didn't have shot implying that he's far beyond his old powerlevel. Probably because he's the protector.
Buffy is totally into Spike, hopefully they finally get a chance at a real relationship in season 9.

I am not sure this is the case; Kennedy has been in so little fo the comic that there is no real reason to fall in love with her.

But people have. Whether you think there’s any reason to is kind of irrelevant, isn’t it? Go to Buffyforums, Slayalive or LJ and you’ll see plenty of fans saying they really enjoy Kennedy now. It’s not something I feel like arguing about when I’ve seen it said repeatedly throughout this season and clearly menomegirl has too. Especially when *I* love Kennedy now, when I didn’t in the show. So, yes, for some fans it is the case.
Yeah I've definitely mellowed towards Kennedy, it's a shame she hasn't had much in the way of speaking roles these last few issues. I was pretty surprised that Kennedy wasn't first in line to make sure Willow was ok when she collapsed with the magic thing this issue. I guess it's just another one of those constraints within comics, but at least it makes me confident that Kennedy isn't gonna snuff it quite yet.

I must admit I am getting pretty sick of Angel and Spike always having to show up. I ship neither way but it's just so retrodden. Buffy is a much more likeable person without either of them around and I don't see the need to keep going back to these two vampires.

Sure they both had significant relationships with Buffy but it just feels like a regression to keep bringing them up as though they are who Buffy is when she is so much more. But we rarely get to see more of her when Angel or Spike are around cus it's all so focussed on them. Great feminist message huh?

All in all a solid issue though. I was thinking Xander or Dawn betrayer, I can't see Faith and Giles doing it personally. Even if they both see that Buffy can no longer lead a slayer army after this, I don't think that's the betrayal cus I think Buffy would agree! And their motivations at least in regarding the Seed of Wonder (I'm sorry but how lame?) are the same so why would they betray her there? Willow is the one whose motivations will be different here and I'm pretty sure she isn't the betrayer.

So I guess the betrayal isn't to do with the Seed at all but something else. I still can't imagine what would get Buffy so cut up that she would be as much of a wreck as she was in the vision thing in Anywhere But Here.

Looks like Buffy and Spike are more or less in the place where Joss has left them in the end of season 7. Buffy cares about Spike, wants to be with him, but the circumstances work against her. Spike, as usual, thinks that she doesn't care about him. She is embarrassed and can't find words to explain that she cares. So the audience knows that she fantasizes about Spike while the object of her affection is absolutely sure that she only thinks about Angel. To me, this is a clear indication that writers want fans to root for the couple. Lost opportunities are the surest way to make the audience feel for the characters.

It was delightful to discover that Spuffy magic hasn't gone after all these years, after the change of the medum, and, very importantly, the introduction of a new writer. In the past, Scott Allie was very critical of the couple, so it's a nice surprise to see him write Spuffy at its best - snarky, funny, honest, completely trusting each other, comfortable with each other's flaws and inexorably drawn to each other.

Interestingly, Buffy's fantasy about sex with Spike is vaguely reminiscent of the love scene in "Innocence". Spike and Angel have switched their traditional places in Buffy's love life; now Buffy's sex with Angel is destructive and wild, while her daydreams about sex with Spike have sweet and intimate vibe. And Spike still considers Buffy his hero, despite her space-frak with Angel.

That said, I don't expect hearts and puppies for Buffy and Spike. (It's so liberating to have zero expectations. You always win.) I expect a lot of UST, unnuendos, quiproquos and more lost opportunities to keep fans in constant alert mode. But I don't think there will be a real Spuffy romance unless Joss finds a way to make it *very* painful for Buffy. A Twangel-level painful. So far, I see a possibility of Spike/Faith romance to make Buffy jealous in season 9. But, surely, Joss will come up with something more devious to torture us and our girl.

So, where do we go from here?

Looks like The Master is Buffy's ally now: they both want to protect the Seed, although Buffy's priority is to protect the Earth. Looks like The Master thinks that Buffy and Spike came to remove the Seed and to give it to Miss Kitty Twilight. Looks like Buffy doesn't know about the consequences of the Seed's destruction. Willow didn't tell her (lie by omission). Hard to say if Spike knows - he could know and he could have told Buffy when she was daydreaming about sex with him. Willow's goal is to protect The Seed at any cost. And, most likely, Twangel has got an order to bring it to Miss Kitty Twilight.

The face-off will be quite intense, and I guess that Angel's mission puts him against the rest of the team. We know that after the betrayal the Seed will look like it has hatched, which goes well with current "birthing a Universe" twist. It's grotesque, but possible. If Buffy and Angel have procreated a universe, the Seed with the Master's help could procreate something to fight against it. Or maybe the partial damage of the Seed we saw on the "betrayal" flashforward panel in #10 is supposed to mean it's destroyed.

I wonder if Miss Kitty Twilight is the final Big Bad in the long file of season 8 Big Bads or it's a manifestation of somebody (something) else? If Buffy's dreams are supposed to be clues, then the real Big Bad must be the gigantic monster from her very first dream, in #2. But I admit, the plot leaves me utterly confused. I don't understard how The Master can be alive and why Buffy isn't surprised about it. I can't wrap my mind around the idea of not-yet-born Twilight manifesting itself through people and animals. Moreover, I'm not sure that an alternate universe as a Big Bad is a good idea. Non-personified evil in a visual medium is usually boring and unconvincing.

But I doubt that anybody in the audience really cares much about all those exotic McGuffins, though. The only question people debate is the identity of the traitor. And, frankly, I'm mostly interested in the identity of the traitor, too. So far, I think it's Angel.

If there is a fight, the only person who can match Buffy in strength is Angel. Of course, Willow could turn him into a frog for a moment, but I think the frog panel was inserted only for laughs.

Plot-wise, no-one is safe -- but, most likely Joss will go for the maximum pain. "The closest, the most unexpected". That's how Buffy sees Angel currently: her heart belongs to him and she wants to spend the rest of her life with him. That's how Angel has been positioned in Buffy's threesome dream: Angel as "the closest".

If the look at the situation from the outside, Jeanty said - and then confirmed - that something terrible will happen to Buffy/Angel relationship. Dark Horse has already announced that Angel will have his own title the next season, so he won't die in season 8. I think it leaves only one option.

Besides, it's Joss.

One of the prevalent mistakes in BtVS fandom is attributing IWRY script to Joss Whedon (I swear, it's not a non-sequitur). But he isn't the writer of IWRY. David Greenwalt and Jeannine Renshaw are - and I think Joss was unhappy that Greenwalt got all the sadistical fun to himself. So in season 8 Joss wrote his own version of IWRY. Again, Angel gets manipulated by dubious higher beings who promise that bad things will happen to Buffy unless Angel hurt her for her own good. Again, Angel believes them and acts accordingly, thinking that he is a noble savior. And again he fails spectacularly. His decision in IWRY didn't prevent Buffy's death in "The Gift". His decision to become Twilight doesn't save the world.

What's even more curious - Twangel arc in season 8 echoes crucial moments in the journeys of the majority of AtS regulars. Angel is corrupted with power and becomes what he hates, like Gunn in season 5; Angel creates a catastrophe by trying to prevent it, like Wesley in season 3; Angel involuntarily becomes a father of an entity that wants to ruin our world and create a new one, as Connor in season 4. So I guess, in a broader sense, it's Joss' take on AtS, uncensored and unlimited.

I wonder if according to this new, Jossian mythology, all Angel's journey was about this moment; that's why PTB (or was it Miss Kitty Twilight?) sent Angel to help Buffy back in 1996; that's why W&H couldn't kill him all along.

And you thought Greenwalt's take on Angel was dark. It's scary to think what Joss could do to Angel if he'd run the show. (I'm not sure I like what he did to Angel. My personal take on Angel is that he is very flawed - and I like him that way. But the panel where he tries to keep Buffy to himself in the Twilight paradize when her sister and her friends are dying on Earth - that panel makes me cringe. Just a week ago me and my fandom friends were rewatching earlier AtS episodes and it felt like mourning the character.)

I have to admit that I have a couple of cognitive dissonances with Miss Kitty Twilight. BtVS consistently depicted felines as a symbol of female power; it's strange that a Big Bad has manifested as a feline. My second gripe is about "birthing" the Bad Universe. Birthing experience as something negative? Evil baby? On a feminist show? It's so bizarre that I wonder if Miss Kitty Twilight is a gigantic hoax and the real Big Bad hasn't appeared yet.

But, most likely, this Big Bad is the final one. The plot is so convoluted that adding another twist would be an overkill. Unless it's Connor who's behind it -- y'know, because he thinks that having a little sister would be fun. (He should have asked Buffy first.)
What's IWRY?

Also can we watch the spoliers a little bit? I don't read interviews with Jeanty or Allie or anyone if they're about future plot developments and I don't look at future covers either, twice in this thread two people who obviously do look at those things has brought up a future plot point and even if it's insignificant it's still pretty annoying.
digupherbones, IWRY is I Will Remember You, from Angel Season 1.
Hey Moscow .... long time. You may not post often, but when you do, you make it worthwhile. :_)

Love your "Miss Kitty Twilight" .... the perfect name for this still not perfectly understood being. (I'm assuming you made that up, I don't really enjoy comics as a medium, so I don't follow them consistently enough to be certain).
Birthing experience as something negative? Evil baby? On a feminist show? It's so bizarre that I wonder if Miss Kitty Twilight is a gigantic hoax and the real Big Bad hasn't appeared yet.

I guess you could argue this is bizarre for Buffy as a feminist show, but it's old hat for Angel--given that Cordelia, Darla, and Fred all died during or as a result of (literal or metaphorical) childbirth. And since the worlds of the two shows reconnecting, it wouldn't surprise me too much to see that trope revisited (though I do find it tiresome). So I do think Miss Kitty Twilight is the real antagonist here.

Oh, and I second the props on the name coinage. Made me smile. :-)
Don't think it's always that we've been re-visiting the birth-experience-as-negative trope in the Buffyverse, so much as reflecting the real world occurrence (okay, less so in developed countries these days) of mothers dying during birth and pregnancies sometimes taking a toll even if they don't. Or better yet, IMO, it's very fitting in a mythical sense to have the creation of life require a sacrifice.

Hmm, yeah, but I can see your guys points when we consider what resulted from the births (Illyria was an invasion/infection of Fred's body, the gang lost someone they cared about, and Jasmine spelled the end of free will for potentially the whole planet, plus same result as Fred with host Cordelia. Connor was the only positive birth and Darla was an evil vampire who kinda needed to die[again] anyway).

While I don't think Cordelia's death was necessary as a result of birthing Jasmine (although that is a pretty big thing to be able to walk away from in the Buffyverse), Darla's was beautiful and Fred's was crazy-tragic (and resulted in Illyria), so I'm kinda glad that the Buffyverse has gone there fairly often.
I will definitely have to read the issue again. I am not doing well with these comics. My reaction was something like ---"What in the world was that all about????" I was totally confused. I see that I am not picking up on a lot of things such as the various fonts. Back to the reading room for me!
I don't understand why people equate Fred-> Illyria with childbirth. It seems to be a lot closer to becoming a vampire/ demon (demon into body, shared memories, same body, death) than childbirth (another, seperate, being created from another's body). I really think people only go there because Fred is a woman and there's precedents. Didn't Illyria also get equated with a virus or bacteria in Time Bomb? Again, not very childbirth-like to me.

[ edited by Nocticola on 2010-10-21 21:05 ]
Illyria stole Fred's body, just as Faith stole Buffy's body with the magic gift left to her by The Mayor. Men, IMO, are always trying to control the women in the Buffyverse.

The second greatest offense in all the years of the Buffyverse and Angelverse, IMVHO, will be leaving Buffy, after suffering the extreme physical abuse from Angel/Twangel as the pitiful woman victim of an abuse lover.

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