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October 08 2010

(SPOILER) Buffyfest's very spoilerish review of Spike #1. They've read the first issue of Brian Lynch's 8 issue series and spoil all.

Without a doubt very spoilerish. As in the whole issue is spoiled.

Finally we will be getting some Spike/Dru interaction. It really has been a long time coming. The bit about Spike's soul is interesting, to say the least. Thanks for this.
This was an aweful review. I tried skipping threw it, but that didn't help either.
Oh dear. I'd contemplated giving this series a go but the review makes me think I'd be better off avoiding it.
The bit about Spike's soul that was mentioned in the review totally put me off reading this comic.

Edited for clarity.

[ edited by menomegirl on 2010-10-09 00:48 ]
Some tough responses so far. I'm still really looking forward to the series, I have a lot of faith in what Lynch and Urru can do together. I do kind of wish I had resisted reading the article, because it does spoil pretty much everything.
Ok, can someone explain to me why it seems like IDW's writers have this mad-on for playing with Spike's soul, or the concept of it? Cuz that's getting annoying and, ya know, very clearly raises continuity/mythology problems.
If you don't want to read the series, totally cool. But not everything is spelled out in issue 1, that would make for a boring comic book. There are twists and turns and the truth isn't as simple as "he has my soul".

But either way, enjoy the story or don't, it's totally fine. We have eight issues to tell the best SPIKE story we can...and oh, we will. Oh. We. Will.
Is this issue on sale now??
I can't seem to find it to order on IDW.
Is there a new website link or something???
Help please...I need to order my copy.
Hugs for the help in advance.!!!!!!
I think, THINK it comes out next Wednesday?
Trunktheslayer, the idea of a restored soul coming from someone else is not a new idea in the Whedonverse....Angel was asked if he could be sure if his soul belonged to him in the mini at Dark Horse penned by Joss himself....I thought it was a really interesting concept that never got fully explored, so I'm excited to see it here.

Plus....Lynch and Urru. What's not to love?
It comes out Wednesday, yeah.

Personally, I haven't been this excited for a comic since After the Fall #1.

I don't really think it's cool to publish a review with spoilers before the general release date, though. I know it was put out at NYCC and all... but there were issues of the ATF finale at last NYCC. When I read that, I made sure to keep my pre-release date review free of major spoilers. I don't know, maybe it's just personal preference.
I'd have to agree, Pat. Having Mr. Lynch back is just so very exciting! Welcome back, Brian. :)
I haven't read an issue of Angel (or Spike, obviously) since the beginning of Aftermath, but "that bastard has my soul" put a grin on my face and is exactly the kind of "oooooh, interesting" plot twist that would keep me reading.
Some of the covers were just shown and they are beautiful, especially the one with Spike and Dru.
3 things i already dislike.

1)The inclusion of Dru. It definitely wouldn't hurt Spike in anyway. Which from previous information we got is the idea. If the bigbad truelly wanted to hurt Spike then he would have had a fake Buffy. The way Spike felt for Dru doesn't even compare to how he feels for Buffy. Dru is also not Spike's fault or responsiblity. Angel made her as she is and Spike deserves much better then Dru.

2)The evolution page. Even knowing that Spike views himself as a 8,5 doesn't mean that he would view Angel as the ultimate goodguy. For Spike it was a way to ridicule Angel, he didn't actually believe that Angel was the noblest of nobles as Brian has continuously portrayed him.

3)Spike having someone else's soul. Ofcourse i am aware that this isn't even close to the whole story but it is our first mystery and i really hate it. Like Trunkstheslayer said, it bugs me that that is what it always comes back to. Spike isn't Angel, Spike's soul is as secure as any other humanbeing. There was no fine print,loops,curse,ect. Spike isn't a weakminded individual that would be convinced by a balls-licking dog to end the world.

But even with all these complaints, i'm still looking forward to the series just for the fact that it's Brian and Franco.
I hope we get lots of Spike interacting with Beck,Betta and Willow. And not too much of Dru,Angel and Illryia.
1)Read the issue before you judge it.
2) Please read the issue before you judge it.
3) Trust me, it ain't as simple as Spike having his soul. I promise you this.
1)I did say that i was going on previous information that we received. And what we were told is that the bigbad's goal was to get the most hurt out of who ever comes. Dru isn't that person for Spike. Even Fred outranks her as he was unable to save her in season 5.

2)I've read the dialogue on the evolution page if there is more about it in the issue then fine. But so far it falls in line in how you like to portray the Spike/Angel relationship which almost always boils down to Spike second best/little brother and Angel always number 1/overglorified/big brother.

3)Again that's what i also said, that this isn't even close to the whole picture. My annoyance comes from Idw always reverting back to that. Angel is the one that got cursed by gypsies who where very weak and half the time didn't even seem to know what they were doing. Spike got his soul from an ancient powerful demon which he paid for in full. There shouldn't be any strings or loopholes.

But as i said, i'm still gonna be checking out this series. From all the Idw comics, Asylum,Shadow Puppets and S:ATF are well and beyond my favorite even if i dislike how certain relationships/characters are written.
I've always loved the way that Brian writes Spike's inner-voice - It adds real depth to the characterization in a way that other writers don't quite get.I think it's why I enjoy Spike as a solo leading character, as a supporting character in comics, to me you don't seem to get this inner voice. As a result, I don't always know what on earth Spike is thinking when he's not a lead. I'm really looking forward to reading this story and I'm pretty certain I won't be disappointed. I've not been enjoying reading the Angelverse/Buffyverse comics as much this year, so this will be a real tonic, hopefully.
Well we'll be having a front page discussion about it next week and if people want, we can have one for every issue of the mini-series.
I want, I want, I want, but I'm so sorry I'm getting my comics to late.. I desperately hope will keep the fans interested to deserve a link on the front page.
Like I tell my students, the sooner we get these things started,the sooner we can get them over with. I'm glad there will be just 8.

Sorry to be a sourpuss. There are many wonderful things about Lynch's characterization of Spike. But it's just not Spike to me. Lynch is the one who first gave us Spike the guy who is obsessed with getting laid and boasting about it, which IDW proceded inflate into a fairly loathsome portrayal of the guy. I agree with Vergil that Lynch's Spike is all snarky little brother to the secretly idolized big brother. DH may be dwelling on Angel's negatives too much, but they are all aspects of his character. And Spike knows that. The dynamic between Angel and Spike is just so much more complex than "someday I hope I can grow up to be a cool version of my wonderful champion big brother". The last complaint is maybe the largest: all the aspects of Spike that Lynch misses. Many of them are important to me. Nobody at IDW understands what it means that Spike sees things poetically. You have to be a bit of a poet yourself to write him with that aspect. If you want to see my Spike, he's on pretty full display in Buffy #36/37.

I will try to refrain in the future from saying these things. I know Lynch's Spike is very popular with a lot of people. And there is a lot to like. I hope Lynch can grow with the character and take him in new places and find some of these other aspects of his personality.

Last word: Dru's ability to hurt Spike got crushed at Crush. And I also don't get why IDW wants to treat Spike's soul as detachable. He wasn't cursed with it. (And yeah, I get that it won't happen -- but the subject keeps coming up and warming the cockles of the anti-Spike fans' hearts, and it's tiresome.)
For me, I don't think that I've seen enough of Spike in #36 and #37 to really be sure of how Joss and Scott see him at this point of his journey. The dialogue's been pretty good, but I really don't know what Spike is thinking and what he feels about Buffy isn't clear to me at all. Some things have really worried me and made me feel rather cautious about his characterization. I'm going to wait and see till #38-#40 before I can really make a judgement.

I hope that lots of readers will be giving Brian's new Spike series a chance.
It's 8 issues long? Wish I'd known that before I bouight the first one; oh well, I haven't read it yet so I'm not committed.
I am very surprised that I wrote Spike as the guy who brags about getting laid. I had no idea, my writing is so subtle that I even I don't pick up on stuff, that is impressive!

Yes, only 8 issues, don't worry. And then Maggie is free! Free I tell you! And DaddyCatALSO if you bought issue 1 but don't want to read it, may I suggest donating it to a childrens hospital? In the past, I have given boxes of old comics and they appreciate it.

Either way, I think people are gonna like the series. Once they, you know, read it.
Brian, having been there with DOLLHOUSE, here is my technique for dealing with people writing something off before they've seen any of it:

- Make a helmet which bounces. Wear helmet for when your head is bouncing off your keyboard or monitor. If monitor, make sure it is securely fashioned to the desk.
There shouldn't be any strings or loopholes.

Because lord knows there are never any strings or loopholes in the Whedonverse.
gossi for the win!
re: Spike's 'non-detachable' soul

I like Spike. I think he is morally superior to Angel (though I prefer Angel as a protagonist in stories). I believe he earned his soul fair and square.

That being said, in a universe where souls are things separate from physical bodies, why SHOULDN'T his be able to be removed, given the right magicks? I don't get the arguments that have been made, here and elsewhere, to the contrary.

That's not to say that he deserves that to happen (nor, indeed that I want that)....but doesn't that make it all the more tragic, that he might have something he fought so hard for taken away? Sounds like a starting point for an interesting story to me....
"Nobody at IDW understands what it means that Spike sees things poetically. You have to be a bit of a poet yourself to write him with that aspect. If you want to see my Spike, he's on pretty full display in Buffy #36/37."

Maggie, you do know that Joss Whedon himself loved Brian Lynch's portrayal of Spike enough to ask him to do "After the Fall," right? Just saying. Because "your" Spike has a lot of different aspects to him, which you've said, and I think that Brian has come the closest to perfectly nailing the character.

Um. Might wanna ignore the wording there.

Read Spike #1 at the con. Geeked out over it with Mariah while I interviewed her about Angel. Read it again on the train home. Very solid beginning. Funny, epic, and true to the character...s.

Also, a little jab at a certain something, which is so very welcome.

I also encourage folks to read it before judging. If you don't like it, hey, fiction is subjective. Some people like space sex and Giles knowing crazy mythology-changing stuff suddenly followed by a seed and bugs and Spike knowing crazy mythology-changing stuff suddenly. Some people don't. Some people like Brian's stuff that came before. Some don't. But this is very much a "pilot," so at least buy the issue before talking about how it sucks. Because a) then you'll have an actual basis on which to say it sucks, and b) I'll have someone to disagree with.

Ain't fiction (when folks actually read it) lovely?
I, for one, did not say it sucked. Brian does have a good Spike voice. I believe he has a good handle on the character.

I'm just not interested in reading a story where Spike loses the soul he fought for, that's all.
Alex J.
That being said, in a universe where souls are things separate from physical bodies, why SHOULDN'T his be able to be removed, given the right magicks? I don't get the arguments that have been made, here and elsewhere, to the contrary.
Because souls aren't that easy to remove? I mean Angel had a crappy curse done by a tribe of weak magic users. He only lost his soul by his own actions after having it for a 100y. Hardly i think the easiest thing to get rid of. With Spike it's even more secure, as secure as any other humanbeing we've seen and you don't see them losing their soul every 5 minutes. And as i said Spike's soul was done by a powerful ancient demon, not by the lowest magic-users on the totempole.

That's not to say that he deserves that to happen (nor, indeed that I want that)....but doesn't that make it all the more tragic, that he might have something he fought so hard for taken away? Sounds like a starting point for an interesting story to me....

Because we've gotten a dozen stories like this and it's redundant. They are all the same ideas, wether Spike losing his soul would make him evil or even with a soul would he turn evil,ect. I don't think there is anything tragic about it, it would be lame and i know a lot of Spike haters(not talking about you buddy.) want to see this happen just as much as Spike hooking back up with Dru(so their shipping preferance is safe), usually under the excuse of finding s2 Spike the best.
The basic thing about it is that the Spike fans have long moved on, they see and accept that Spike is a champion/hero(made further clear with his reappearance in season8, the true Spike), for many he's a much better hero then Angel ever was. And they like to see him develop further, as a character and individual. Not always falling back on the boring "oh what if he loses his soul or his soul isn't his?ect) The soul is an undeniable part of Spike. We saw him fight,suffer,hurt for it.
As i said before i'll definitely be picking this up but i will in no way accept a retcon of the shows's Spike. I saw him get his soul, no string no loopholes, end of story.

[ edited by Vergil on 2010-10-10 11:51 ]
Hey Vergil, the second point of your argument has convinced me. On reflection, I'm not sure how much new ground could be covered with that story.
(Wow...internet forum user in opinion change shock! Film at 11.)

But....I still think that if a writer had a Buffyverse story that included soul removal it could still work.

Let's take Spike out of this, because as you said....been there, done that. Maybe, say, an episode with a black market in heroes' souls, the Scoobies become a target...or people in Sunnydale start acting without any moral compass, and Buffy has to work out why....(can you tell I'm not a writer? :))


We've seen more than one way of resurrecting a vampire (Darla, the Master). Maybe there's more than one way to remove a soul...even one that someone has had since birth.

While I acknowledge that we have not seen this in the text so far, all it would take was coming up with a new Macguffin (hence my use of 'the right magiks' above).

I don't think it should happen frequently, or arbitralily....just that I don't think there is anything 'in universe' that precludes ANYONE from having their soul removed if the writers so desired.
Hey Vergil, the second point of your argument has convinced me. On reflection, I'm not sure how much new ground could be covered with that story.
(Wow...internet forum user in opinion change shock! Film at 11.)

But....I still think that if a writer had a Buffyverse story that included soul removal it could still work.

Hi Alex, we all change our mind from time to time when we view things from a different perspective. It's healty...i think.
I agree, the concept does sound interesting.

Let's take Spike out of this, because as you said....been there, done that. Maybe, say, an episode with a black market in heroes' souls, the Scoobies become a target...or people in Sunnydale start acting without any moral compass, and Buffy has to work out why....(can you tell I'm not a writer? :))


We've seen more than one way of resurrecting a vampire (Darla, the Master). Maybe there's more than one way to remove a soul...even one that someone has had since birth.
Very cool, i can see a smart enemy attacking Buffy and the scoobies, stealing the scoobies's soul one by one and Buffy having to deal with that. A Willow or Giles without a soul would be a very scary thought indeed. I think you've got a great imagination;)
Yep take Spike out of that story i would very much be interested in it. But the fact that Spike is again used as the guinea pig/the one that never gets it quite right annoys me.
Pat, I liked Brian's Spike stuff before AtF, too. I was even enthusiastic about AtF when I first heard about the project. And I've spent a lot of money on Brian's work. So I'm not just a knee-jerk anti. He had to win me over to being an anti, in part by snarking more than conversing.

What I don't see (and am happy to not see) is any words from Joss about the awesomeness of AtF. He's sounded like he wants to distance himself from it -- saying he gave Brian some ideas and let him run with it, but you can't call it season 6 because he didn't interact with the process much after that. Maybe I'm wrong and Joss is trying is hardest to get Lynch signed up to do Spike at DH. That'd be a bummer, but who knows what folks really think.

And mind you, I don't think AtF is terrible. I just think it's flat. And yes, having Spike sitting around talking with Wesley about Spider making it hurt so good, or making innuendos about his sexual activity to Connor is Spike bragging about getting laid. I read the text. It was right there, with pictures even.

I didn't mean to come back to this thread. I don't like the endless hammering on things I like from people who aren't open to it anymore. And I do mean to stay away from now on. But I heard Brian had taken issue, so here I am.

I do hope it works out great. Never say never, right? Meanwhile, I shall stay off the Spike threads until I have something nice to say!

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