"Oh, look at my poor neck... all bare and tender and exposed."
December 29
2010
Tim Minear chats Dollhouse and what season 3 could have been.
Along with Dollhouse, he also talks about the passing of actor Andy Hallett who Minear worked with on Angel.
JAYROCK
| Dollhouse
| 12:00 CET
|
37 comments total
| tags: dollhouse, tim minear
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AnotherFireflyfan | December 29, 12:11 CET
@theonetruebix | December 29, 12:26 CET
[ edited by JAYROCK on 2010-12-29 21:29 ]
JAYROCK | December 29, 12:29 CET
bonzob | December 29, 12:55 CET
sumogrip | December 29, 12:58 CET
[ edited by JAYROCK on 2010-12-29 22:06 ]
JAYROCK | December 29, 13:05 CET
Simon | December 29, 13:11 CET
I was oddly not a fan of the original pilot when it was put together. Can't put my finger on why. I liked the script, but I think that pilot would have tested terribly.
I still think the greatest things about Dollhouse (eg it's fucked up premise) are both its strength and its weakest. Fans remember how twisted it got, but I'm not sure most people wanted to see that.
I loves me some Joss, but I do think Dollhouse will have been one of the most difficult shows around to write for.
[ edited by gossi on 2010-12-29 22:37 ]
gossi | December 29, 13:30 CET
Pointy | December 29, 13:36 CET
Sparticus | December 29, 14:30 CET
Anyway, I think it would have been great.
zz9 | December 29, 14:46 CET
Wish I could afford to buy the series, but my Christmas money is for important stuff, like a stepladder, a toolbox, other household necessities. If I have anything left over buying what I need, then I can buy what I want. Like Seasons 2 - 5 of Angel.
Sigh. The joys of being a broke homeowner.
ShadowQuest | December 29, 15:05 CET
Jaymii | December 29, 16:33 CET
Sunfire | December 29, 19:13 CET
Maybe it was easier to write those last episodes in Season 2 compared to earlier episodes where it seems the writers were wondering "how do I do this?", but it felt very rushed and I missed the nuanced notes from the earlier episodes.
The way Season 2 crammed in so many storylines near the end is why Dollhouse is my least favorite of Whedon's shows. Incredible concept, incredible actors, uncertain execution that peaked in late Season 1/early Season 2. It's one of the most uneven shows sadly.
Emmie | December 29, 20:21 CET
@theonetruebix | December 29, 22:07 CET
Gossi said above that he noticed some shows writing themselves into a corner. I think Dollhouse did that with Epitaph One. Having too many plans can hinder just as much as having no plan at all. If the show didn't feel the need to catch up to the future way down the line, we might have gotten a more solid, evenly paced Season 2. Whedon's often said he had a five year plan for BtVS when he first started it, but he treated every season finale like it was the last and he never tried to stuff all the years into that one season's end.
Watching Dollhouse from the very beginning, I was always on the verge of being totally in love with it, but I retained this unsettling ambivalence. When they got word of cancellation and decided to fit years of stories into a few episodes, my ambivalence outpaced my enthusiasm and all the chinks in the armor I'd noticed previously, they started growing (there were some serious execution gaffes there, just poor technical choices).
I think Dollhouse is Whedon's most ambitious show, but that strength is also why it's the most flawed. And no, I don't think they had to just let it stop without resolution. It might not have been total resolution, but I think there was a satisfying middle ground to explore. But Dollhouse's ambition came first and the show went for the gold--it just failed to stick the landing, so much so that while I can appreciate what they were trying to do on an intellectual level, I wasn't feeling it.
Dollhouse really disappointed me. There's much that I still love about it (beloved characters, how thought provoking it was, a few episodes, some brilliant dialogue), but the show overall fell short. It never quite clicked, never quite crystallized. Cue irony that a show about searching for identity never managed to fully settle into its own.
[ edited by Emmie on 2010-12-30 08:59 ]
Emmie | December 29, 23:56 CET
And I miss Andy.
Sigh. Now I'm sad.
Moving on... I loved what they did, and I probably would've loved whatever they would've come up with had they had more time. Maybe I'm easy to please, dunno.
That being said, Emmie, I too really enjoyed the slow build. I was not at all bored by the development of Echo as a character. She so clearly was one to me, right from the beginning. The second she started remembering things (in only the second episode) I was hooked to her story. Not to mention that there were plenty of other characters to latch onto.
Oh well. Doesn't much matter now, does it?
guidedby | December 30, 00:33 CET
The original pilot will always be one of my favorite episodes of the show. I loved the writing, the philosophical discussions and the noir-atmosphere of it. I also believe that Tahmoh's character was never written as well as in the pilot. In "Echo" you could actually understand his obsession with Echo/Caroline.
I miss Whedon writing on my tv. I mean, there are other great shows on the air (Weeds, Breaking Bad, Damages etc.), but Joss's shows have always been something really special for me.
Donnie | December 30, 01:18 CET
That's probably the thing I liked least about it (though in general I thought it was good, Topher in particular started off with a more coherent, interesting point of view). We'd seen characters develop on Whedon shows before but Echo was a chance to develop a character from scratch and that's a fascinating journey to me. In the abstract in fact i'd rather it took even longer, except on TV I don't think you could really do it (i.e. the idea's fascinating but I doubt it'd make the sort of TV that most would want to watch let alone a network would want to buy).
Not momentum like the little engine that could though unfortunately, more like a runaway train. Kudos to the gang for the attempt to resolve it to some extent but the present time-line resolution wasn't great (for me), not just the Boyd stuff which we've gone over ad nauseum but also things like the under/mis-use of Saunders (sure they didn't have Amy for long but when they did have her at the end they had someone else in her body which felt like a wasted opportunity) and the generally rushed "suddenly all pals" team dynamic. "Epitaph Two" 'resolved' its time-line much better IMO (though admittedly in some respects it didn't have as far to go WRT character arcs etc.).
Saje | December 30, 02:24 CET
JAYROCK | December 30, 02:41 CET
latinandgreek | December 30, 02:46 CET
Heh, yeah, fair enough JAYROCK, me too. How about:
Guy who's like a 6 tops: Hey, woman I am married to in reality which is real !
Attractive Brunette who's like an 8 at least: Let's dance on a motorbike while bow-hunting deer from a rock-face and having sex !... Oooh, I feel funny... FADE.
EXT. sunny Californ-I-A outside a Circle K where strange things are occurring including but not limited to bread theft. Caption "3 Months Later".
Attractive Brunette: Wow, I can't believe how weird I felt while having my composite event, integrating numerous consciousnesseseses so that I now have multiple useful skillsets and becoming a superhero much like TV's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" but nothing like film's "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" which is either unrepresentative of Joss Whedon's original intentions or an ill-advised reboot that doesn't even involve him FFS, yo ! Or also that I am called Echo which is a weird name. Now, to take down the dollhouse, the place that I do hate because of all of their evil offscreen shenanigans !
Quick enough ? ;)
(just to add BTW that I really like zz9's idea of initially showing us reality entirely from Echo's perspective and just dropping in apparent "continuity errors" as clues that something odd's going on until we get to the reveal. Only problem being, staying unspoiled for something that huge would be virtually impossible)
[ edited by Saje on 2010-12-30 12:08 ]
Saje | December 30, 03:04 CET
Sparticus | December 30, 04:41 CET
My only issue with the show, start to finish, was the jumbled cramming in of a seasons worth of stuff into the last several episodes. And considering the circumstances, I think they did as good a job as possible.
I have no doubt that if Dollhouse had been allowed to evolve at a pace that allowed for smooth story arc development, it would have been my #1 favorite Whedon show.
I miss it like Browncoats miss Firefly. And yes, I miss Firefly too, but not as much as Dollhouse.
EF: half asleep typo
[ edited by Shey on 2010-12-31 12:20 ]
Shey | December 30, 06:44 CET
gossi | December 30, 07:34 CET
Yet let's not forget that season 2 of Dollhouse gave us Belle Choose (the best MOTW episode of the show, easily), Belonging (one of the best Whedonverse episodes ever), The Left Hand, The Attic, Getting Closer and Epitaph Two. All were amazing episodes. Not to mention that Vows, The Public Eye and A Love Supreme were good episodes themselves.
Season 2 was definitely uneven, but it was sort of forced to be that way. We still got some amazing hours of television out of it.
nuccbko | December 30, 08:41 CET
The end of the original pilot, where Echo says "Caroline", was (I believe) intended to suggest she'd retained the name Caroline, not remembered who Caroline was. Unless I'm remembering it wrong.
It's ambiguous as to how much is in there but it was an earlier sign of the blank-slate Echo retaining anything than we got in the aired episodes (where it's the end of 'The Target' before we see "shoulder to the wheel" and the end of 'Gray Hour' before you could really say Echo was anything like a person). Unless i'm remembering it wrong.
Saje | December 30, 08:49 CET
While I agree that the show had its weak points, and the present timeline ending could have been better done, I really loved season 2 of the show, including the mad dash to the finish. Like most of us, I expected the show to be cancelled in season 1. I was amazed when we got 13 more episodes. I knew those 13 additional episodes were a gift, and that I could not expect any more than that. So I'm glad that Mutant Enemy took those 13 episodes and kicked the show into high gear, taking us on a thrilling tour of everything they had planned, even if it was in an abridged mode. I found the ending of Dollhouse to be much more satisfying than how Firefly ended (even including the coda of getting Serenity).
I only wish the Hollow Men had been better, and the first 5 episodes of season 1 weren't so slow to develop. But where Buffy and Angel got multiple seasons to grow and develop, Dollhouse had a brief 26 episodes to shine, and I think it burned quite brightly for that very brief time.
AnotherFireflyfan | December 30, 09:20 CET
I actually loved what they did with season two, way more than season one. Considering they had next to no money - and this hasn't really been covered online, but their budget was effectively tiny that season - I think they did some really kick ass 'big' episodes (The Attic, The Left Hand), they did some really great premise study eps (Belonging, Belle Chose)... And that Amy Acker/Fran Kranz scene, I believe, is one of Whedon's best written and directed things ever. (Also the Amy/Harry scene - 'I guess I'm just built that way').
Personally, I would have loved to see Perrin's arc extended in presidency, the exploration of who Saunders was, dealing with gay engagements, and covering the fall of Rossum. I also wish it hadn't been cancelled.
gossi | December 30, 09:46 CET
electricspacegirl | December 30, 10:01 CET
Simon | December 30, 10:55 CET
It was always going to be a bit rushed but they had a choice as to how much they tried to pack in. For me though it's not a "Therefore they are evil/incompetent" sort of thing, nobody on the creative staff needs defending IMO, they shot for the moon and unfortunately fell a bit short. That happens when you aim for "great" rather than just settling for "okay", there's no shame in it whatsoever.
...somebody suggested up thread they should have concentrated on certain things (e.g. Perrin) and left other things til later - the problem is, there was going to be no later.
Not sure anyone's said that though some (e.g. Emmie and Sparticus) are saying they could've tried to do less in the small amount of time they had and I agree with that. I also saw season 2 as a gift and (apparently unlike the creative team, hopeless optimists that they are ;) didn't think we had a hope in hell of a season 3 so whatever they were going to do they had to do while they had the chance. It's just that that doesn't mean you have to do everything you were going to do. Even Joss can't get a quart in a pint pot. Still, hindsight's 20/20 and it's easy to say these things now (at the time, after "Getting Closer", my attitude was roughly "If anyone can do it, they can", just turned out nobody could do it).
(feels like i've listed all the things I liked about season 2 both at the time and since so I won't bother with that again, suffice to say, I thought it was excellent in general but pretty poor in a few parts towards the end)
[ edited by Saje on 2010-12-30 20:05 ]
Saje | December 30, 11:02 CET
[ edited by AnotherFireflyfan on 2010-12-30 20:37 ]
AnotherFireflyfan | December 30, 11:36 CET
In fact I remember getting to the end of specific episodes and going, "Okay, that was the end of Season X."
@theonetruebix | December 30, 11:59 CET
Interestingly (or not), the Firefly DVDs are, to me, a perfect example of how to end a show that you didn't expect to have to end. Rather than forcing seasons of development (which I realize wasn't an option in that case) Joss shifted Objects in Space to the end of the show, and ultimately made the show about something else: River Tam's integration into the crew. And I love that. It's a story that can be told satisfactorily in 14 episodes. You have other elements there which would be great to explore, like those that Serenity went on to try to resolve. But in the space you have, you tell the story that fits in the space you have.
This is why, like Emmie, I don't buy that their only two options were, "Do everything Joss had planned, just super-compressed" and "Stop with no sense of resolution." There is, as she says, a middle ground, one which I think Firefly managed perfectly just on the DVD sets (I also think Serenity is a good example of how to compress a season of TV into two hours, but that's an aside).
Which is all a long way of saying, I agree with Emmie.
ETA: Oh, and I hadn't read Saje's post above carefully enough. What he said, too, a million times what he said.
[ edited by Jobo on 2010-12-30 23:29 ]
sumogrip | December 30, 14:27 CET
If you want a closer comparison, look at all of the strong desire out there to know all the little details about 'Firefly'. 'Dollhouse' could have taken the approach of that show, and wrapped things up smoothly while leaving some loose ends. However, there would be the same desire for answers that we have had with that world for years. All in all, I think whichever way they went, there would have been dissatisfied fans on both sides.
NFA110 | December 31, 10:28 CET