January 04
2011
Angel vs. Spike, who would win?
Which vampire would win in a fight? It says nothing about assuming weapons or timeframe.
Sunfire
| BtVS
| 14:53 CET
|
93 comments total
| tags: spike, angel, astronauts, cavemen
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archon | January 04, 15:01 CET
Shep | January 04, 15:03 CET
Cerberus | January 04, 15:11 CET
Sunfire | January 04, 15:12 CET
project bitsy | January 04, 15:13 CET
sab39 | January 04, 15:15 CET
[ edited by Wyndam_ on 2011-01-05 00:18 ]
Wyndam_ | January 04, 15:17 CET
Nathan | January 04, 15:18 CET
IrrationaliTV | January 04, 15:19 CET
Nathan | January 04, 15:20 CET
That would get my vote.
NotaViking | January 04, 15:21 CET
1. It's clear from that episode and others that Angelus had always beaten Spike when the two fight. It's more fair to say that it's the first fight between Angel and souled Spike (Angel fought unsouled Spike a number of times, most notably in "In the Dark"). Whether or not that should make a difference depends largely on one's view of the difference between unsouled and souled Spike, as Angel, much like Angelus, kicks unsouled Spike's butt in "In The Dark."
2. In "You're Welcome," Spike tries to start something by attacking Cordelia, and this is what happens:
The point here, in line with the the entire message of "You're Welcome," is that Angel had lost his motivation to fight until that episode. That includes his motivation to fight Spike for the Cup. Destiny is a one-time event that has every to do with Angel's specific state of mind at the time of the episode. Hence, all the example shows is that Spike *can* beat Angel depending on their respective motivations in the fight.
What matters in this fight is context. Personally, I think that in most circumstances Angel would win, but there are certainly imaginable situations (a la Destiny) where Spike would.
goingtowork | January 04, 15:39 CET
pulzer | January 04, 15:40 CET
Sneakyfox | January 04, 15:40 CET
baxter | January 04, 15:42 CET
@theonetruebix | January 04, 15:42 CET
Angelus vs. Spike is a much more interesting match-up.
Kon4MItY | January 04, 15:47 CET
[ edited by Shep on 2011-01-05 00:52 ]
Shep | January 04, 15:52 CET
Dana5140 | January 04, 15:59 CET
IrrationaliTV | January 04, 16:04 CET
ETA On topic, I second goingtowork....
[ edited by Alex_Jamieson on 2011-01-05 01:08 ]
Alex_Jamieson | January 04, 16:06 CET
[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 01:10 ]
[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 01:11 ]
Tonya J | January 04, 16:09 CET
| January 04, 16:12 CET
(they live in caves... IN SPAAAAAACCCCCCE ! Best of both worlds)
Personally I really doubt there'll be 100 posts on this. S'too round, just seems a bit unlikely.
Saje | January 04, 16:16 CET
[ edited by Shep on 2011-01-05 01:26 ]
Shep | January 04, 16:25 CET
But seriously, it depends on what they are fighting for. Whoever believes in the cause more between the two of them will win. Whoever wants it more. This has been proven time and time again. Unless it's Angelus. Then he wins every time. But Angel vs Spike, it is whoever wants it more.
Tumnus | January 04, 16:32 CET
I personally believe an Astronaut would make short work of a Cavemen. I the contest of A Hole in the World though, Cavemen won. Albeit a Caveman that was also once the most powerful creature on the planet, and with blue tentacles.
Wyndam_ | January 04, 16:33 CET
Dana5140 if you don't care for a thread that's fine but your repeated drive-by comments to inform people a topic is beneath your attention are getting very old, not to mention tempting me to invent superlatives for ironic. The insults in particular are a growing problem. Give it a rest, and note that I am not asking.
Sunfire | January 04, 16:35 CET
[ edited by Sunfire on 2011-01-05 01:43 ]
cabri | January 04, 16:37 CET
And ouch! for the use of the word 'hollow'.
[ edited by Shep on 2011-01-05 01:42 ]
Shep | January 04, 16:41 CET
Sunfire | January 04, 16:41 CET
Angel. The only time he didn't win was in "Destiny" (he didn't win then because he didn't know whether he really believed in what he was fighting for), and even that was an extremely close fight.
Edit: I mean, seriously. Angel can beat Spike *as a puppet*.
[ edited by Taaroko on 2011-01-05 01:58 ]
Taaroko | January 04, 16:43 CET
Shep | January 04, 16:52 CET
Wonder who they'll pick this time? What random vamp could it be?
I'll go with the puppet theme (thx Shep), Count von Count.
hann23 | January 04, 17:09 CET
GimpyD | January 04, 17:10 CET
Alpert | January 04, 17:27 CET
The Spuppet wrestling means nothing, Spike was giggling, and how could you seriously want to hurt something that cute?
Plus Spike got a new car out of it, so winner. :)
Xane | January 04, 17:57 CET
Squishy | January 04, 18:04 CET
Oh, and beware the comments section on the website if you aren't up to date on the comics. Spoilerific!
[ edited by E-Rawk on 2011-01-05 03:36 ]
E-Rawk | January 04, 18:35 CET
embers | January 04, 19:05 CET
Nathan | January 04, 19:52 CET
I think no matter what, Spike would always go all out in any sort of fight against Angel. But Angel... I think he could win hands down if he'd only let his Angelus out. Angelus is never very far away--just leashed. Of course, he'd also need to not "play with his food." I think he's easily distracted from the nitty-gritty practicality of fighting by its more esoteric pleasures (aesthetics and psychology). Because that's what he's really interested in. So... it all depends on which Angel shows up.
Anyone want to give odds on a serious Angel showing up to fight Spike? The formula is apparently something like:
p=n/N
I found the formula and the explanation here, but I am sooo not the math person. My eyes sort of glazed over at the idea of trying to go back through all those episodes and analyze Angel and his fights/almost fights. Plus I really need to go now and watch "The Harvest."
ETF: grammar
[ edited by BreathesStory on 2011-01-05 05:08 ]
BreathesStory | January 04, 20:07 CET
Glitch_Doll | January 04, 20:35 CET
However- Angel, even Angelus has never been a match for Buffy, at all really, whereas Spike and she are evenly/nearly evenly matched pretty much throughout their history. Inconsistent. Maybe attributable to the what are you fighting for idea though- one could imagine that Spike enjoys fighting Buffy so much that it makes him a better fighter whereas Angel doesn't enjoy it at all, and Angelus...um I don't know. Additionally you could suppose that Spike isn't really at his best when fighting Angel/us due to emotional baggage from the whole mean-grandsire/bully years him thing.
But for whatever reason, I still see Angel winning. In this totally ridiculously vague hypothetical fictional cynically promotional thing that's really just a popularity contest/ shipping war in disguise. [Except for here hopefully]
aphasia | January 04, 21:23 CET
(they're astronauts that live... IN CAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVES ! Best of both... Wait, that one doesn't work)
p=n/N
Not much help unfortunately BreathesStory. n = 1 since there's one favourable outcome from each of their perspectives - assuming they both want to win - and N = 2 since there're two possible outcomes (ignoring a draw) - Spike wins or Angel wins. Which gives a probability of 1/2 or 0.5 or a 50/50 chance. Not exactly settled. Bayes Theorem might help except it being 6:50 am doesn't help with Bayes Theorem so i'm gonna leave that as an exercise for the Googler ;).
However- Angel, even Angelus has never been a match for Buffy, at all really, whereas Spike and she are evenly/nearly evenly matched pretty much throughout their history. Inconsistent.
Nah, not really. Fighting is non-transitive I reckon (like football results). If Team A beats Team B and Team B beats Team C it doesn't necessarily follow that Team A beats Team C (because teams - and vampires with souls ;) - have different playing styles, managers will adjust their tactics against different opposition, playing conditions might be different as might match fitness, mental focus, motivation etc.).
Saje | January 04, 23:03 CET
Souled Spike over Angel, because he's enough stronger mentally to overcome any slight physical advantage Angel might have.
The idea that souled Spike in stronger mentally than Angel may be contentions, but I believe there is more than enough evidence to support that conclusion.
Shey | January 05, 00:05 CET
Spike (younger but has been in more battles)
anca | January 05, 00:22 CET
Hmm, tough choice but of the two, Glory. Or Ben.
Saje | January 05, 02:01 CET
eilowyn | January 05, 02:26 CET
deborahmm | January 05, 02:27 CET
With a soul no contest Spike, he has the history of a fighter/warrior with or without a soul. And Destiny was a legit win, Spike was also not in a good place mentally at that time. He didn't get the girl and found himself transported into his rival's den. He's gone up against much stronger foes and came close to winning, Buffy and Illyria. In season 8 he goes fist to fist against enemies that have godlike powers. The Master(superseeded),Angel("). He doesn't win against them but he does keep on getting up and getting back into the fight. That's a true warrior's attitude of never giving up. Now with magic gone i would say that fighting wise Spike is only second to Buffy.
Vergil | January 05, 02:34 CET
I think a fight between these two depends on motivation. Angel or Spike could win depending on who wanted it more. And if they both wanted it... well, I can see it playing out like some of Spike's fights with past Slayers. Sheer luck would affect the fight.
I don't get why people are saying Angelus would win versus Spike. Sure, maybe back when Spike was just turned, but no way do I think Angelus during Season 2 would beat Spike (if Spike weren't injured). The soul/no-soul thing makes no sense to me. And actually, I think Angel becomes a better fighter once he's determined to be a champion. Soulless Angel was more about torture than going balls-to-the-wall like Spike. Angel-with-a-soul is the one tried and tested as a fighter.
Emmie | January 05, 02:40 CET
Simon | January 05, 03:00 CET
(Reminds me of the old - old, old - joke:
"Any one Scotsman can beat any 10 Englishmen".
With this, the english general sent down 10 of his soldiers. There was a hell of a fight and NO ONE returned. An hour later, the same voice was heard.
"Any one Scotsman can beat any 50 Englishman".
With this the English general sent down 50 of his soldiers. The same thing, a terrible fight ensured and again NO ONE returned. An hour later the same voice.
"Any one Scotsman can beat any 100 Englishman".
Same same, down went 100 of the best. NO ONE returned. An hour later.
"Any one Scotsman can beat any 1,000 Englishman".
By this time, the English general had enough and was about to send down his elite soldiers, when he saw a lone Englishman crawling up the hill. He was battered to a pulp. As he reached his general he said, "Don't send any more troops down sir, its a trap, THERE'S TWO OF THEM".
[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-05 12:34 ]
Saje | January 05, 03:33 CET
BlueSkies | January 05, 03:44 CET
deborahmm | January 05, 04:12 CET
hopitopia | January 05, 04:18 CET
In any "who would win?" the answer is Batman. Even if Batman is not part of the question.
Craig Oxbrow | January 05, 04:28 CET
;-)
I knew this thread would give me all the emotions of a Hollywood film: laughter, anger, sadness and resolution. Plus lotsa PG sexual tension!
If you read between the lines a bit there's also a car chase and if you rapidly move your monitor towards your face it's kind of 3D. And to seal the deal, i'm actually Angelina Jolie so yep, the Hollywood movie analogy is apropos.
[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-05 13:31 ]
Saje | January 05, 04:29 CET
BlueSkies | January 05, 04:29 CET
It's certainly true he can't hold a candle to Father Jack Hackett.
deborahmm | January 05, 04:34 CET
Apart from Dara O Briain surely ? ;)
Yeah, it's just a bit of fun (and i've actually seen that joke told with Irish subbed in for Scottish BTW Blueskies ;) - US soldier vs Al Quaeda too for that matter).
Without meaning to hoist myself on my own petard (and meaning no personal offence to deborahmm), it seems to me like threads are often in most danger of going down the wrong road whenever people start telling other people which road the thread should or shouldn't be going down. The mods here do a splendid job IMO, we're better off leaving them to it - if it goes off the rails they'll let us know soon enough.
Saje | January 05, 04:40 CET
kathylovesspike | January 05, 04:43 CET
*shudders*
He's on the bleedin' telly every day already, making me weep, the spa.
As for who wins? I'd love to see them kill each other. But Spike did kill two Slayers, so he may just have the edge.
Caroline | January 05, 04:52 CET
;-)
(he's not anywhere near as big, cuddly - in a platonic way ;) - and theoretical physics graduatey as He Who Shall Not be Named but he's still fockin' funny)
Saje | January 05, 04:57 CET
And the Father Ted crew are in a league of their own over on Craggy island! Too awesome for any nationality!
Dylan Moran is the only acceptable Irish funnyman, the others need to be stopped.
On the subject of Angel killing slayers, i do dimly recall him saying to Spike something along the lines of "you're one of us now" when Dru announced the news, does that not mean they all killed one?
[ edited by BlueSkies on 2011-01-05 14:02 ]
BlueSkies | January 05, 05:00 CET
(and Dru killed Kendra without comment, preamble or much fuss so I bet she at least has killed a Slayer before - if she'd done it then surely Angelus must've ? He probably showed her how)
Saje | January 05, 05:12 CET
Spike did get very happy about her doing it, but not in a "she just popped her slayer cherry" kinda way, so perhaps they all did but they left it off screen, just makes sense in the later context. So we're back to square evenly matched, like a square having even sides...
BlueSkies | January 05, 05:29 CET
Spike on Buffy is like Worf on ST:TNG. All this talk, talk, talk about how tough he is, and he generally folds within the first blow or two.
BTW, he became one of my very favorite characters. This isn't about that.
filops | January 05, 05:45 CET
My least favourite of all the types of square.
Yep, it's a conundrum wrapped inside an enigma wrapped inside it being Angel/Angelus.
[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-05 14:46 ]
Saje | January 05, 05:45 CET
BlueSkies | January 05, 05:50 CET
In truth I also think it'd be pretty even for the most part and Spike's one of my favourite characters - though I like Angel well enough too - it's just that, to all intents and purposes it's kind of already settled in his favour owing to them fighting and him, y'know, winning which makes Angel the rank underdog. And who doesn't prefer to side with the underdog right ? ;)
Saje | January 05, 06:08 CET
redeem147 | January 05, 08:48 CET
And Dru killing a slayer wasn't anything like how Spike took them out which was a fair fight one on one. Kendra got a pathetic death at the hands of an inferior fighter. Not a death befitting a warrior which is what a slayer is. Simlear to how Buffy got trolled by the Master in season 1, luckly she got a second chance and kicked his ass good.
Vergil | January 05, 08:53 CET
http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/2200000/spike-and-angel-season-5-fights-spangel-2269109-1024-768.jpg
Spike: Can't we just fight? Why do we have to do bleeding paperwork?!
Angel: I can't wait to kill you. Then I won't have to hear the mosquito whine of your voice asking stupid questions anymore.
[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 19:44 ]
[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 19:45 ]
[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 19:46 ]
Tonya J | January 05, 10:39 CET
Tonya J | January 05, 10:46 CET
aphasia | January 05, 12:19 CET
C'mon, we can get to 100! (Dana, always a pleasure)
Oh, and Angel. No, astronauts. No, cavestronauts. Well... probably Batman.
[ edited by guidedby on 2011-01-06 18:05 ]
guidedby | January 06, 09:04 CET
Angel vs. Spike, who would win:
Pie Eating Contest..........Spike, he digs his human food
Pop Culture Knowledge..........Spike
Most Use of Hair Products..........tie! Psych! No, it's Spike. Helmet head and bleach.
Vampire You Most Want for an Interior Designer.........Angel
Loogie Chucking..........Spike, he's more likely to have practiced
Best Breath..........Angel, the non-smoker always wins
On American Idol..........Spike, but Angel might make more money off his outtakes--bravery is sexy
Musical Taste.........,Spike, I don't really need to explain this one, right?
Kick the Can...........Angel, surprisingly light on his feet for such a big guy
Simon Says..........Angel, he listens much better than Spike
Fencing Duel..........Angel, them's some mad skilz
Quarter Staff..........Spike, until other evidence presents itself
Pin the Tail on the Donkey.........Angel, actually does blindfolded workouts IIRC
Yo Yo-ing..........Angel, needs a bit of patience this one does
Score so far: Angel 7, Spike 7
Next contest: Dodge Ball
Seventy-nine comments of inane in the black,
Seventy-nine comments of inane...
Judge the name,
Pass the next game,
Eighty comments of inane in the black.
BreathesStory | January 06, 10:16 CET
Tonya J | January 06, 10:37 CET
Trick category ! Neither breathes.
Best drinking companion..........Spike (Angel has to be a maudlin drunk right ?)
Saje | January 06, 12:20 CET
Best Breath..........Double trick category! They inhale and exhale to use their voices. In my mind, air movement in and out of the mouth equals breath. (I wonder what brand of toothpaste they use though, cuz blood breath has got to be a challenge.)
Best Comic Book Collection.........Angel (Actually owns a complete set of Detective Comics. He was imprinted way back. I mean, have you checked out his car and coat?)
Total Score with 18 Comments Remaining: Angel 8, Spike 8
BreathesStory | January 06, 13:09 CET
Sure. And they need blood flow for what happened in 'Surprise' or 'Smashed' to happen at all and yet they don't have a pulse. Just another inconsistency basically (since at least "Prophecy Girl" when Angel couldn't give Buffy CPR because he doesn't breathe and yet, as you say, he talks, smokes, gets puffed out when he exerts himself etc. etc.). So...
Best fake breathing..........A dead heat ;)
Saje | January 06, 15:08 CET
As for Angel breath, I see vampire breathing as being shallow, upper-lung only, just enough to permit talking(and smoking). It's not as if they need to breathe deeply to get oxygen into their blood. The rest of the system has atrophied, but the blood does not appear to drain down to the lowest point as in an actual corpse, so there's a mystical hydrostatic (haemostatic?) force at work.
Yes, I have thought about this way too much, thank you for asking.
Gill | January 06, 15:42 CET
Like their clothes going *poof* it's just another element you either accept (in order to watch the show) or don't (and so stop).
Saje | January 06, 15:58 CET
I picked Spike for this because I decided it's more fun if he gets the bragging rights.
Sunfire | January 06, 18:40 CET
BlueSkies | January 08, 00:27 CET
DaddyCatALSO | January 08, 13:32 CET
http://iheartwesleywp.blogspot.com/2011/01/meritocracy-in-vampire-world.html
Simon | January 11, 09:33 CET
"In other words, the best man for the job isn't always the best man."
An unfortunate truth in life and story.
BreathesStory | January 11, 10:05 CET
And cheers Simon, good read indeed, some nice insights in there, makes me want to rewatch 'Angel' (again).
Saje | January 11, 10:23 CET
BreathesStory | January 11, 11:57 CET
ETA: You've inspired me though so I tried some nigh random stuff in Google and eventually "black and white film plane crash south american jungle killer" came back with 'Back From Eternity' which sounds like it but i'm pretty sure i'd remember Rod Steiger being in it so I think it's more likely to be 'Five Came Back', the 1939 original (as you'd imagine, i've forgotten a lot of the details). Sometimes Google really is your friend (and so's Wikipedia, just gave Jimmy some money for his trouble ;).
(daft really, I tried searching for it a while back but of course it hadn't occurred to me that links - and therefore Google's index - will change over time)
[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-11 22:27 ]
Saje | January 11, 13:10 CET