Angel vs. Spike, who would win? - BtVS

The definitive throw down happened in Angel season 5 when Spike came out on top in Destiny. Only way Angel wins is if he has magical help via Twilight/super-demon blood, etc.

archon | January 04, 15:01 CET

Are we really going to do this?

Shep | January 04, 15:03 CET

This almost begs for arguments.

Cerberus | January 04, 15:11 CET

If we can do this without it getting out of hand, yes. If people can't be civil about it then the thread may go away. It's a fun question considering how much each character has changed over time and how different their approaches to fighting and everything else are. At the end of the day they seem pretty evenly matched to me, but in certain situations one has the advantage over the other.

Sunfire | January 04, 15:12 CET

I don't suppose there's a third option, like "CAN WE MOVE PASSED THIS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD?" is there?

project bitsy | January 04, 15:13 CET

Obviously the answer is "Astronauts".

sab39 | January 04, 15:15 CET

They would both win, as they'd get to beat the hell out of each other.

[ edited by Wyndam_ on 2011-01-05 00:18 ]

Wyndam_ | January 04, 15:17 CET

No way Cavemen!!!!!!!!!

Nathan | January 04, 15:18 CET

Wouldn't the audience be the winner? I do love a big grand fight scene. :)

IrrationaliTV | January 04, 15:19 CET

I had to say Spike, i believe him to be a stornger character both mentally and pysically.

Nathan | January 04, 15:20 CET

I don't suppose there's a third option, like "CAN WE MOVE PASSED THIS, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD?" is there?

That would get my vote.

NotaViking | January 04, 15:21 CET

In response to the point about "Destiny:"

1. It's clear from that episode and others that Angelus had always beaten Spike when the two fight. It's more fair to say that it's the first fight between Angel and souled Spike (Angel fought unsouled Spike a number of times, most notably in "In the Dark"). Whether or not that should make a difference depends largely on one's view of the difference between unsouled and souled Spike, as Angel, much like Angelus, kicks unsouled Spike's butt in "In The Dark."

2. In "You're Welcome," Spike tries to start something by attacking Cordelia, and this is what happens:

SPIKE
You took me on and lost, remember, old man?

ANGEL
Touch Cordelia again...[Angel breaks free of Spike's grip, lifts Spike into the air and throws Spike to the ground]
..get ready for our very last rematch.

The point here, in line with the the entire message of "You're Welcome," is that Angel had lost his motivation to fight until that episode. That includes his motivation to fight Spike for the Cup. Destiny is a one-time event that has every to do with Angel's specific state of mind at the time of the episode. Hence, all the example shows is that Spike *can* beat Angel depending on their respective motivations in the fight.

What matters in this fight is context. Personally, I think that in most circumstances Angel would win, but there are certainly imaginable situations (a la Destiny) where Spike would.

goingtowork | January 04, 15:39 CET

Is there some kind of oil involved? Because I would consider anyone who gets to witness that a winner in a big way.

pulzer | January 04, 15:40 CET

It also doesn't say Spike with or without soul. Wouldn't that make a difference?

Sneakyfox | January 04, 15:40 CET

I suspect it depends on what each is fighting FOR. Some things/causes are likely to give the advantage to either. Let's just hope - for the love of all that is unholy - that it isn't about Buffy! Surely both characters have more than 100 years of other experiences and strongly-held beliefs that might gird their respective loins.

baxter | January 04, 15:42 CET

Edward.

@theonetruebix | January 04, 15:42 CET

For me, Spike would always beat Angel, but Angelus would always beat Spike.

Angelus vs. Spike is a much more interesting match-up.

Kon4MItY | January 04, 15:47 CET

Regarding Buffy, I like to think Angel and Spike wouldn't fight so much as squabble, bicker and then end up crying in opposite corners of the room.

[ edited by Shep on 2011-01-05 00:52 ]

Shep | January 04, 15:52 CET

Yet another puerile attempt by Dark Horse to generate free press for a comic that failed to live up to its potential. I find it hard to believe that people our age and our intelligence would wish to argue an issue that has no answer and can never have an answer and can in no way matter. So I suppose there will be 100 posts on this as a result, some funny and some really arguing the question.

Dana5140 | January 04, 15:59 CET

Thanks for the free insult, Dana!

IrrationaliTV | January 04, 16:04 CET

Or, y'know, it's just a bit of fun....

ETA On topic, I second goingtowork....

[ edited by Alex_Jamieson on 2011-01-05 01:08 ]

Alex_Jamieson | January 04, 16:06 CET

One might also argue that the Cavemen v. Astronaut question has been asked and argued ad nauseum. But it's also harmless and fun to contemplate. So many variables. I happen to like a little comic relief, myself. Angel could wear a Barry Manilow outfit replete with platform shoes and Spike could wear Victorian garb. Besides the usual fisticuffs they could carry one squirt gun each filled with Holy Water. Let the games begin! (I really could not choose a winner [unless it was Angelus fighting Spike])

[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 01:10 ]

[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 01:11 ]

Tonya J | January 04, 16:09 CET

Angel vs Spike? I'd say the outcome depends on whether Angel messes with the only person who matters to Spike... If not, then they'll probably end up cuddling.

| January 04, 16:12 CET

Cavestronauts !

(they live in caves... IN SPAAAAAACCCCCCE ! Best of both worlds)

Personally I really doubt there'll be 100 posts on this. S'too round, just seems a bit unlikely.

Saje | January 04, 16:16 CET

Interestingly, whenever I pose the Cavemen vs Astronauts question to anyone, (most people I know have never seen Angel and have at most watched one episode of Buffy eons ago) the universal answer is 'Astronauts, of course!'.

[ edited by Shep on 2011-01-05 01:26 ]

Shep | January 04, 16:25 CET

Caveman wins. Of course he does.

But seriously, it depends on what they are fighting for. Whoever believes in the cause more between the two of them will win. Whoever wants it more. This has been proven time and time again. Unless it's Angelus. Then he wins every time. But Angel vs Spike, it is whoever wants it more.

Tumnus | January 04, 16:32 CET

That's interesting because everyone I talk to always goes with Cavemen, but I guess this just illustrates what a fun argument this is.

I personally believe an Astronaut would make short work of a Cavemen. I the contest of A Hole in the World though, Cavemen won. Albeit a Caveman that was also once the most powerful creature on the planet, and with blue tentacles.

Wyndam_ | January 04, 16:33 CET

I like Shep's idea, some choice bickering followed by a tense silence does have a certain fittingness.

Dana5140 if you don't care for a thread that's fine but your repeated drive-by comments to inform people a topic is beneath your attention are getting very old, not to mention tempting me to invent superlatives for ironic. The insults in particular are a growing problem. Give it a rest, and note that I am not asking.

Sunfire | January 04, 16:35 CET

All things being equal and the two being equally motivated, I'd have to go with Angel.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2011-01-05 01:43 ]

cabri | January 04, 16:37 CET

I've always found Fred's 'Cavemen win. Of course the cavemen win' particularly heartbreaking. :( It was a hollow victory for that particular caveman, though.
And ouch! for the use of the word 'hollow'.

[ edited by Shep on 2011-01-05 01:42 ]

Shep | January 04, 16:41 CET

We're not piling up on Dana5140 here.

Sunfire | January 04, 16:41 CET

*exaggerated gasp of indignation* You wash out your mouth right now, b!X!

Angel. The only time he didn't win was in "Destiny" (he didn't win then because he didn't know whether he really believed in what he was fighting for), and even that was an extremely close fight.

Edit: I mean, seriously. Angel can beat Spike *as a puppet*.

[ edited by Taaroko on 2011-01-05 01:58 ]

Taaroko | January 04, 16:43 CET

I'd like to see them both fight in puppet form. Cuteness!

Shep | January 04, 16:52 CET

Beware of Dark Horse vamp competitions. Spike won by the #s for favorite vamp in December but the competition moderators got to CHOOSE their favorite in the end.

Wonder who they'll pick this time? What random vamp could it be?

I'll go with the puppet theme (thx Shep), Count von Count.

hann23 | January 04, 17:09 CET

Depends on the situation for me. In a pit fight, weapons or not, I give the edge to Spike. Spike has always been more primal, and more feral in his fighting. But lets say you put them on opposite sides of town in a game of death where the goal is to kill the other, Angel wins. He is at his most dangerous when he can plan, manipulate, trap, and strike from the shadows. Angel(us) was always a psychological fighter. They are both at opposite ends of the fighting spectrum. It's why they fight with each other so much, yet compliment each other so well when they fight together.

GimpyD | January 04, 17:10 CET

Well, if it's bad singing versus bad poetry, I'd say it's a tie.

Alpert | January 04, 17:27 CET

Spike. Because of Destiny, and because of Buffy. When Angel was Angelus he couldn't touch Buffy, except psychologically. Spike seemed more evenly matched, even though Buffy was stronger. Loving to fight and lots of practice can make you good at it.

The Spuppet wrestling means nothing, Spike was giggling, and how could you seriously want to hurt something that cute?

Plus Spike got a new car out of it, so winner. :)

Xane | January 04, 17:57 CET

This is the coolest topic ever. We should have more like it. I love you nerds.

Squishy | January 04, 18:04 CET

How can you not pick Angel, have you seen the way he dances? Deadly.
Oh, and beware the comments section on the website if you aren't up to date on the comics. Spoilerific!

[ edited by E-Rawk on 2011-01-05 03:36 ]

E-Rawk | January 04, 18:35 CET

Angelus and/or Twilight beats Spike, Spike beats Angel, and the cavemen always win.

embers | January 04, 19:05 CET

YAY CAVEMEN!

Nathan | January 04, 19:52 CET

I'm not sure if it's a really cool topic or not, but I think it's at least room temperature.

I think no matter what, Spike would always go all out in any sort of fight against Angel. But Angel... I think he could win hands down if he'd only let his Angelus out. Angelus is never very far away--just leashed. Of course, he'd also need to not "play with his food." I think he's easily distracted from the nitty-gritty practicality of fighting by its more esoteric pleasures (aesthetics and psychology). Because that's what he's really interested in. So... it all depends on which Angel shows up.

Anyone want to give odds on a serious Angel showing up to fight Spike? The formula is apparently something like:

p=n/N

I found the formula and the explanation here, but I am sooo not the math person. My eyes sort of glazed over at the idea of trying to go back through all those episodes and analyze Angel and his fights/almost fights. Plus I really need to go now and watch "The Harvest."

ETF: grammar

[ edited by BreathesStory on 2011-01-05 05:08 ]

BreathesStory | January 04, 20:07 CET

Assuming everything else for both of them is equal, I'm going to go with Angel.

Glitch_Doll | January 04, 20:35 CET

Yeah, I'm a huge Spike fan, always have been, but Angel beats him, pretty much most of the time. And he's a lot less impulsive, etc. My money's on Angel. Sorry Spike.

However- Angel, even Angelus has never been a match for Buffy, at all really, whereas Spike and she are evenly/nearly evenly matched pretty much throughout their history. Inconsistent. Maybe attributable to the what are you fighting for idea though- one could imagine that Spike enjoys fighting Buffy so much that it makes him a better fighter whereas Angel doesn't enjoy it at all, and Angelus...um I don't know. Additionally you could suppose that Spike isn't really at his best when fighting Angel/us due to emotional baggage from the whole mean-grandsire/bully years him thing.

But for whatever reason, I still see Angel winning. In this totally ridiculously vague hypothetical fictional cynically promotional thing that's really just a popularity contest/ shipping war in disguise. [Except for here hopefully]

aphasia | January 04, 21:23 CET

Astromen !

(they're astronauts that live... IN CAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVES ! Best of both... Wait, that one doesn't work)

p=n/N

Not much help unfortunately BreathesStory. n = 1 since there's one favourable outcome from each of their perspectives - assuming they both want to win - and N = 2 since there're two possible outcomes (ignoring a draw) - Spike wins or Angel wins. Which gives a probability of 1/2 or 0.5 or a 50/50 chance. Not exactly settled. Bayes Theorem might help except it being 6:50 am doesn't help with Bayes Theorem so i'm gonna leave that as an exercise for the Googler ;).

However- Angel, even Angelus has never been a match for Buffy, at all really, whereas Spike and she are evenly/nearly evenly matched pretty much throughout their history. Inconsistent.

Nah, not really. Fighting is non-transitive I reckon (like football results). If Team A beats Team B and Team B beats Team C it doesn't necessarily follow that Team A beats Team C (because teams - and vampires with souls ;) - have different playing styles, managers will adjust their tactics against different opposition, playing conditions might be different as might match fitness, mental focus, motivation etc.).

Saje | January 04, 23:03 CET

Angelus over unsouled Spike, because Angeleus' brutality is unstoppable and unsouled Spike was too cocky.

Souled Spike over Angel, because he's enough stronger mentally to overcome any slight physical advantage Angel might have.

The idea that souled Spike in stronger mentally than Angel may be contentions, but I believe there is more than enough evidence to support that conclusion.

Shey | January 05, 00:05 CET

Astromen vs Cavenauts

Spike (younger but has been in more battles)

anca | January 05, 00:22 CET

Astromen vs Cavenauts ?

Hmm, tough choice but of the two, Glory. Or Ben.

Saje | January 05, 02:01 CET

I'm in if it looks anything like this.

eilowyn | January 05, 02:26 CET

Angel and Spike fighting is only interesting if oil's involved. Now, if it had been Angel and Spike shagging...

deborahmm | January 05, 02:27 CET

Without a soul, my vote goes to Angelus. Not because he's stronger or a better fighter, just for the simple fact that soulles Spike didn't care to beat Angel/us until he got a soul.
With a soul no contest Spike, he has the history of a fighter/warrior with or without a soul. And Destiny was a legit win, Spike was also not in a good place mentally at that time. He didn't get the girl and found himself transported into his rival's den. He's gone up against much stronger foes and came close to winning, Buffy and Illyria. In season 8 he goes fist to fist against enemies that have godlike powers. The Master(superseeded),Angel("). He doesn't win against them but he does keep on getting up and getting back into the fight. That's a true warrior's attitude of never giving up. Now with magic gone i would say that fighting wise Spike is only second to Buffy.

Vergil | January 05, 02:34 CET

It's pretty hilarious to me how the initial reaction to this topic was DEAR GOD NO, but it's actually a fun topic to discuss. Just as long as we all remember there be dragons...

I think a fight between these two depends on motivation. Angel or Spike could win depending on who wanted it more. And if they both wanted it... well, I can see it playing out like some of Spike's fights with past Slayers. Sheer luck would affect the fight.

I don't get why people are saying Angelus would win versus Spike. Sure, maybe back when Spike was just turned, but no way do I think Angelus during Season 2 would beat Spike (if Spike weren't injured). The soul/no-soul thing makes no sense to me. And actually, I think Angel becomes a better fighter once he's determined to be a champion. Soulless Angel was more about torture than going balls-to-the-wall like Spike. Angel-with-a-soul is the one tried and tested as a fighter.

Emmie | January 05, 02:40 CET

I think Angelus would have the edge because he has more experience in fighting than Spike. He is one hundred and forty years older. And meaner.

Simon | January 05, 03:00 CET

Course it's Angel/Angelus. In what world is a Celt ever going to lose a fight to an Englishman (and a middle-class Englishman at that) ? Sure Buffy's fantasy but, y'know, there's fantasy and then there's fantasy ;).

(Reminds me of the old - old, old - joke:

In the old days the English and Scottish armies used to fight by gathering their armies on top of the hills and at day break they would run down the hillside into the deep gorge below to fight. One morning at dawn there was a fog (as thick as pea soup) and the two generals decided to refrain from fighting that day. Whilst the two armies were resting a voice, with a Scottish accent came from within the dense fog.

"Any one Scotsman can beat any 10 Englishmen".

With this, the english general sent down 10 of his soldiers. There was a hell of a fight and NO ONE returned. An hour later, the same voice was heard.

"Any one Scotsman can beat any 50 Englishman".

With this the English general sent down 50 of his soldiers. The same thing, a terrible fight ensured and again NO ONE returned. An hour later the same voice.

"Any one Scotsman can beat any 100 Englishman".

Same same, down went 100 of the best. NO ONE returned. An hour later.

"Any one Scotsman can beat any 1,000 Englishman".

By this time, the English general had enough and was about to send down his elite soldiers, when he saw a lone Englishman crawling up the hill. He was battered to a pulp. As he reached his general he said, "Don't send any more troops down sir, its a trap, THERE'S TWO OF THEM".

;-)

[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-05 12:34 ]

Saje | January 05, 03:33 CET

Saje, I like your response! Damn straight the Irish have the upper hand, and apparently the Scottish too!! Angel for the win!

BlueSkies | January 05, 03:44 CET

What has country of origin got to do with it? I don't think this is an avenue the discussion should go down. No good can come of it.

deborahmm | January 05, 04:12 CET

Count Chocula? I knew this thread would give me all the emotions of a Hollywood film: laughter, anger, sadness and resolution. Plus lotsa PG sexual tension!

hopitopia | January 05, 04:18 CET

Batman.

In any "who would win?" the answer is Batman. Even if Batman is not part of the question.

Craig Oxbrow | January 05, 04:28 CET

Craig Oxbrow FTW. Celt see ?

;-)

I knew this thread would give me all the emotions of a Hollywood film: laughter, anger, sadness and resolution. Plus lotsa PG sexual tension!

If you read between the lines a bit there's also a car chase and if you rapidly move your monitor towards your face it's kind of 3D. And to seal the deal, i'm actually Angelina Jolie so yep, the Hollywood movie analogy is apropos.

[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-05 13:31 ]

Saje | January 05, 04:29 CET

deborahmm, I'm Irish and just had a wee moment of national pride there after Saje's comment, it's rare so let's just embrace the moment. Angelus is probably the least monstrous and destructive thing to come out of the country so I hold him to great esteem.

BlueSkies | January 05, 04:29 CET

Angelus is probably the least monstrous and destructive thing to come out of the country so I hold him to great esteem.

It's certainly true he can't hold a candle to Father Jack Hackett.

deborahmm | January 05, 04:34 CET

Angelus is probably the least monstrous and destructive thing to come out of the country so I hold him to great esteem.

Apart from Dara O Briain surely ? ;)

Yeah, it's just a bit of fun (and i've actually seen that joke told with Irish subbed in for Scottish BTW Blueskies ;) - US soldier vs Al Quaeda too for that matter).

Without meaning to hoist myself on my own petard (and meaning no personal offence to deborahmm), it seems to me like threads are often in most danger of going down the wrong road whenever people start telling other people which road the thread should or shouldn't be going down. The mods here do a splendid job IMO, we're better off leaving them to it - if it goes off the rails they'll let us know soon enough.

Saje | January 05, 04:40 CET

Well..... since Spike already won my heart years ago...for me he's going to win every time. No matter what.

kathylovesspike | January 05, 04:43 CET

New rule: there will be no mentioning of Dara O Briain on this site until... Ever.

*shudders*

He's on the bleedin' telly every day already, making me weep, the spa.

As for who wins? I'd love to see them kill each other. But Spike did kill two Slayers, so he may just have the edge.

Caroline | January 05, 04:52 CET

Is Ed Byrne still OK ?

;-)

(he's not anywhere near as big, cuddly - in a platonic way ;) - and theoretical physics graduatey as He Who Shall Not be Named but he's still fockin' funny)

Saje | January 05, 04:57 CET

Dara O Briain needs to meet Angelus on a bad day, I hate him!! Can Angel and Spike both kill him and can we call it quits?
And the Father Ted crew are in a league of their own over on Craggy island! Too awesome for any nationality!
Dylan Moran is the only acceptable Irish funnyman, the others need to be stopped.

On the subject of Angel killing slayers, i do dimly recall him saying to Spike something along the lines of "you're one of us now" when Dru announced the news, does that not mean they all killed one?

[ edited by BlueSkies on 2011-01-05 14:02 ]

BlueSkies | January 05, 05:00 CET

See, now I don't know which way to jump cos I like Dylan Moran a lot too. Also, i'm having dissonance cos Ardal O'Hanlon's done some funny bits (as a stand-up I mean) but is unacceptable. Except he was also in 'Father Ted' ! The cause of my mental anguish should be plain for all to see !

(and Dru killed Kendra without comment, preamble or much fuss so I bet she at least has killed a Slayer before - if she'd done it then surely Angelus must've ? He probably showed her how)

Saje | January 05, 05:12 CET

Ardal O hanlon was funny when Dermot morgan was there to hold his hand so fear not dear Saje, twas only a shroud!

Spike did get very happy about her doing it, but not in a "she just popped her slayer cherry" kinda way, so perhaps they all did but they left it off screen, just makes sense in the later context. So we're back to square evenly matched, like a square having even sides...

BlueSkies | January 05, 05:29 CET

Angel.

Spike on Buffy is like Worf on ST:TNG. All this talk, talk, talk about how tough he is, and he generally folds within the first blow or two.

BTW, he became one of my very favorite characters. This isn't about that.

filops | January 05, 05:45 CET

So we're back to square evenly matched, like a square having even sides...

My least favourite of all the types of square.

Yep, it's a conundrum wrapped inside an enigma wrapped inside it being Angel/Angelus.

[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-05 14:46 ]

Saje | January 05, 05:45 CET

Haha, okay, well i did throw my square hat in with Angel earlier, and he is one of my favourite characters after all(beaten only by Buffy and Faith. Now there's a fight; two slayers, one vampire...or possibly a porno).

BlueSkies | January 05, 05:50 CET

Well, Joss is known for genre bending, why not both ? Combat porn. Ooh, Pronbat™ ! To the death ! Or at least "la petite mort" ;). Beyond Beyond Thunderdome: Two women and a man enter, no-one leaves ! (cos why would they when you can have most things delivered these days, including - but not limited to - oil and ice-cream ?)

In truth I also think it'd be pretty even for the most part and Spike's one of my favourite characters - though I like Angel well enough too - it's just that, to all intents and purposes it's kind of already settled in his favour owing to them fighting and him, y'know, winning which makes Angel the rank underdog. And who doesn't prefer to side with the underdog right ? ;)

Saje | January 05, 06:08 CET

Spike. Cause he won - my heart.

redeem147 | January 05, 08:48 CET

Euh Dru and Angel never killed a slayer before Dru killed Kendra in season 2. The "You're one of us now" line was not in reference to killing a slayer it was in regards to finally having done something that earns you a place in the infamous gang. Spike was the youngest and had not yet proven himself, by killing a slayer he was topdog.
And Dru killing a slayer wasn't anything like how Spike took them out which was a fair fight one on one. Kendra got a pathetic death at the hands of an inferior fighter. Not a death befitting a warrior which is what a slayer is. Simlear to how Buffy got trolled by the Master in season 1, luckly she got a second chance and kicked his ass good.

Vergil | January 05, 08:53 CET

Three-quarters of the way to 100 posts!

http://images1.fanpop.com/images/photos/2200000/spike-and-angel-season-5-fights-spangel-2269109-1024-768.jpg

Spike: Can't we just fight? Why do we have to do bleeding paperwork?!

Angel: I can't wait to kill you. Then I won't have to hear the mosquito whine of your voice asking stupid questions anymore.

[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 19:44 ]

[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 19:45 ]

[ edited by Tonya J on 2011-01-05 19:46 ]

Tonya J | January 05, 10:39 CET

It won't link properly -- sorry for the lame editing.

Tonya J | January 05, 10:46 CET

eilowyn - yes! Thanks for the awesome clip!

aphasia | January 05, 12:19 CET

*bump*

C'mon, we can get to 100! (Dana, always a pleasure)

Oh, and Angel. No, astronauts. No, cavestronauts. Well... probably Batman.

[ edited by guidedby on 2011-01-06 18:05 ]

guidedby | January 06, 09:04 CET

Comment #79

Angel vs. Spike, who would win:

Pie Eating Contest..........Spike, he digs his human food
Pop Culture Knowledge..........Spike
Most Use of Hair Products..........tie! Psych! No, it's Spike. Helmet head and bleach.
Vampire You Most Want for an Interior Designer.........Angel
Loogie Chucking..........Spike, he's more likely to have practiced
Best Breath..........Angel, the non-smoker always wins
On American Idol..........Spike, but Angel might make more money off his outtakes--bravery is sexy
Musical Taste.........,Spike, I don't really need to explain this one, right?
Kick the Can...........Angel, surprisingly light on his feet for such a big guy
Simon Says..........Angel, he listens much better than Spike
Fencing Duel..........Angel, them's some mad skilz
Quarter Staff..........Spike, until other evidence presents itself
Pin the Tail on the Donkey.........Angel, actually does blindfolded workouts IIRC
Yo Yo-ing..........Angel, needs a bit of patience this one does

Score so far: Angel 7, Spike 7

Next contest: Dodge Ball

Seventy-nine comments of inane in the black,
Seventy-nine comments of inane...
Judge the name,
Pass the next game,
Eighty comments of inane in the black.

BreathesStory | January 06, 10:16 CET

You forgot best kisser. Oops, a topic all on it's own.

Tonya J | January 06, 10:37 CET

Best Breath..........

Trick category ! Neither breathes.

Best drinking companion..........Spike (Angel has to be a maudlin drunk right ?)

Saje | January 06, 12:20 CET

Best kisser.......... Not enough intel yet. ~_^

Best Breath..........Double trick category! They inhale and exhale to use their voices. In my mind, air movement in and out of the mouth equals breath. (I wonder what brand of toothpaste they use though, cuz blood breath has got to be a challenge.)

Best Comic Book Collection.........Angel (Actually owns a complete set of Detective Comics. He was imprinted way back. I mean, have you checked out his car and coat?)

Total Score with 18 Comments Remaining: Angel 8, Spike 8

BreathesStory | January 06, 13:09 CET

They inhale and exhale to use their voices. In my mind, air movement in and out of the mouth equals breath.

Sure. And they need blood flow for what happened in 'Surprise' or 'Smashed' to happen at all and yet they don't have a pulse. Just another inconsistency basically (since at least "Prophecy Girl" when Angel couldn't give Buffy CPR because he doesn't breathe and yet, as you say, he talks, smokes, gets puffed out when he exerts himself etc. etc.). So...

Best fake breathing..........A dead heat ;)

Saje | January 06, 15:08 CET

Saje, I think we can assume the - er - specific blood flow is mystical, as there's no evidence either has a pulse while doing the deed.

As for Angel breath, I see vampire breathing as being shallow, upper-lung only, just enough to permit talking(and smoking). It's not as if they need to breathe deeply to get oxygen into their blood. The rest of the system has atrophied, but the blood does not appear to drain down to the lowest point as in an actual corpse, so there's a mystical hydrostatic (haemostatic?) force at work.

Yes, I have thought about this way too much, thank you for asking.

Gill | January 06, 15:42 CET

Sounds like you've thought about it exactly enough to me ;). But yeah, precisely - in a magical universe problems like that just go away (e.g. maybe it's just air on the way in but when it comes out it's tainted by the demon, hence no CPR ? I never minded that anyway really cos metaphorically it makes sense - no kiss of life from the dead thing - whatever the physiological ins and outs).

Like their clothes going *poof* it's just another element you either accept (in order to watch the show) or don't (and so stop).

Saje | January 06, 15:58 CET

I try to remember it's the magic and devilry that lets them walk and talk and sort of but not really breathe like that. Otherwise, ow.

I picked Spike for this because I decided it's more fun if he gets the bragging rights.

Sunfire | January 06, 18:40 CET

I'd enjoy Spike losing to hear him be bitter and try to reason it away...plus when Angel gets snarky(on the rare occasion) he is clearly channeling cordy!

BlueSkies | January 08, 00:27 CET

Consensus on "another website" is that they'r eevenly matched with each other and also with Buffy and Faith. Out of any two, it depends on the purpose of the fight; whichever one wants it more will win it.

DaddyCatALSO | January 08, 13:32 CET

Worth reading.

http://iheartwesleywp.blogspot.com/2011/01/meritocracy-in-vampire-world.html

Simon | January 11, 09:33 CET

Good read, Simon. Thanks. :) This bit resonated with me as being the crux of why Angel does so well as a character in his own series:

"In other words, the best man for the job isn't always the best man."

An unfortunate truth in life and story.

BreathesStory | January 11, 10:05 CET

Yep. I remember seeing an old film as a kid where a plane crashes in the jungle, resources are limited and eventually the group has to choose who to allow to die. Except they can't do it, basic human decency gets in the way. The upshot is (**spoilers** ;)... one of the passengers is a cold-blooded killer and he turns out to be the only one capable of saving lives by picking who should live and who should die - in that instance the best man for the job is, in fact, the worst man. Wish I could remember what it was called, wouldn't mind watching it again to see how i've warped it in my mind over the years.

And cheers Simon, good read indeed, some nice insights in there, makes me want to rewatch 'Angel' (again).

Saje | January 11, 10:23 CET

Saje, is this it? Sands of the Kalahari

BreathesStory | January 11, 11:57 CET

Nope, not that one BreathesStory. It was black and white (unless my memory's really on the fritz ;) and definitely jungle rather than desert. A vague tickle tells me it might have been South America rather than Africa too.

ETA: You've inspired me though so I tried some nigh random stuff in Google and eventually "black and white film plane crash south american jungle killer" came back with 'Back From Eternity' which sounds like it but i'm pretty sure i'd remember Rod Steiger being in it so I think it's more likely to be 'Five Came Back', the 1939 original (as you'd imagine, i've forgotten a lot of the details). Sometimes Google really is your friend (and so's Wikipedia, just gave Jimmy some money for his trouble ;).

(daft really, I tried searching for it a while back but of course it hadn't occurred to me that links - and therefore Google's index - will change over time)

[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-11 22:27 ]

Saje | January 11, 13:10 CET

January 04 2011