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January 15 2011

Alyson Hannigan weighs in on Buffy reboot. "I would crap on that. Joss was Buffy."

I wonder how much attention is being paid to comments like these. Aside from maybe three people here, I haven't seen any positive comments about this at all, and nearly all the former Buffy cast and crew have come out saying it's a terrible idea. That's a pretty huge negative buzz for a project that's not even at baby steps yet, you'd have to think that the studio is paying attention to them and sweating a little by now.
Gotta love Aly. She tells it like it is and doesn't sugarcoat it!
You know, I just wish she would be less diplomatic about it and not afraid to hurt people's feelings. It seems like she's treading on egg shells. But she is quite the wordsmith!
I know. Tell us how you really feel, Aly.
The context is due to how the question was asked - "Do you crap on the Buffy reboot?" or whatever. She wasn't just talkin' Lily style.
Oddly enough

Question: Alyson, would you like to take this opportunity to crap on the idea of a Buffy movie?

Alyson Hannigan: Well, a Buffy movie without Josh — Joss — I can't do that now that I work with Josh — without Joss, I would crap on that. Yes. Because Joss was Buffy. That was it.


Source:
Again, talk about suspenseful. It's getting to the stage where I can only really get a proper rush off of the time between reading the headline and clicking the link.
I'm shocked (shocked, I tell you!) that Aly is against this project.
to reply to matt...i don't think the studio gives a damn about the past casts, creators, writers, producers thoughts. they think us fans are just dumb and will go to anything with Buffy in the title. problem is they don't seem to recognize that we fell in love with the stories and characters the people who worked on the TV show created; not just the idea. otherwise the movie wouldn't have bombed the way it did (eventhough i do love the camp-Bness that the BtVS original movie created).
No one has said this yet, but you know the worst thing that could happen with the Buffy reboot? It could be a hit. With sequels. Don't kill me, I'm just the messenger.
No one has said this yet, but you know the worst thing that could happen with the Buffy reboot? It could be a hit. With sequels.


And gets a tv spinoff. Oh! Maybe that's been the plan all along.
A TV spinoff, hah. That never occurred to me but you know, if the movie was a hit, it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
Ok, so...Charisma, Tony & Alyson say "Bad idea" - who else has voiced their opinion?

Aside from Our Purple Master, that is.

Oh, right - didn't David make a pouty face when he heard about it?
Eliza also sounded off on it too.
Seth Green has also talked about it.
And Julie, Amber, Emma, Nick, Tim Minear, Jane Espenson, Felicia Day, Mo Tancharoen...
Mark Lutz too.
But to add a touch of positivity to this topic - Alyson looks wonderful in that picture.
I'm in the 'acceptance' stage of my grief: nothing will stop this movie from happening. But reading comments from Joss' cast make me feel better.

[ edited by Effulgent on 2011-01-15 21:40 ]
Honestly, this stuff doesn't help me at all. I'm in the "over it, moving on stage." Which basically means, at this point whenever someone slams the project, I start wanting it to do well and wishing luck to the people involved because I'm not a big fan of bashing in general. I went through the Fallout No Mutants Allowed thing and the Star Trek (you can't DO that) thing, and honestly, wangst makes me sleepy.

If Joss had really wanted to do this and they hadn't spoken to him, then I'd worry. That's just not the case.
I'm always gonna think it's a bad idea but yeah, also pretty much over it (i'm currently saving all my "wangst" for the surely inevitable remake of 'The Searchers' which a feeling in my water's telling me is just around the corner. Cos you know that 'True Grit' was just the gateway remake right ? First one's free and all that).
Saje: And after that, it's just a question of time before they remake The Conqueror. With Dwayne Johnson as Genghis Khan.
That one I can live with, pretty much wangst free too ;).
I hope everyone who is against this movie being made is also against Tim Burton's upcoming Dark Shadows or Frankenweenie. Or Alice in Wonderland. Or Sweeney Todd. Or Corpse Bride. Or Charlie in the Chocolate Factory. Or Planet of the Apes. Or Tim Burton. Or Johnny Depp.

After all, we wouldn't want to be hypocrites, would we?

Yes, yes, Buffy is still alive in comics. But that doesn't negate the fact that everyone is more bitter it seems about this being a Joss-less Buffy - even though everyone seems to bitch about a comic that Joss has been serving as Executive Producer of.

Again with the hypocrites.

I'm indifferent to the movie. Especially since, well, you know, it's not even made yet.

At least let's wait until we see a trailer before we really get up in arms over it.

[ edited by didifallasleep on 2011-01-16 02:09 ]
didifallasleep: I think you're right. I was angry at first, but I think I'm fine with it now. This movie (should it be made) will in no way usurp Joss's Buffy. It is kind of a testament to how beloved Buffy is and to how much Buffy has glommed on to pop-culture's soul. If it is good, more power to it!

My reservations arise from the whole "vampire craze." (I'm sorry, but Edward Cullen is not a vampire. He's a lucky schmuck who gets to look pretty in the sunlight and never die and have outrageous superpowers for freeeeee.) And I am sure this "Buffy reboot" is purely a $$$$$ endeavor.

Let's just hope the writer/director/actors make something worth watching, because that might draw new fans to the series. If not, then....meh.

(edited for my stupid typos)

[ edited by 5X5B on 2011-01-16 03:19 ]
didifallasleep, that's some pretty harsh and rude criticism of people who are not for this proposed new Buffy film. And quite frankly, your analogy doesn't make sense. First, remakes in and of themselves are not generic entities wherein a film fan is automatically deemed a hypocrite because they don't care for one film reboot, but like another. There are many factors involved, and the two most important elements around the Buffy reboot, at least for me, are respect and propriety.

Second, one would have to specifically care enough about the source material Burton's remakes are based on in the same sense one loves Joss Whedon and his television creation of Buffy, to even protest against them. And I don't. Third, Sweeney Todd is an original film version of Sondheim's musical and was done with his blessing (which Buffy is not).

I think the best thing to do when you don't like a topic here, is to just ignore it, or write the moderators off the board if you find it particularly egregious, instead of making blanket statements about people having opinions and being hypocrites.
Tonya J - Harsh and rude criticism of people who are being rude and harsh regarding the proposed new Buffy film?

Also, just because you do not care for the original material Burton's remakes are based on does not mean that other's don't. Just as I surmise there are people who don't care about Joss's Buffy who wouldn't mind seeing it remade.

Glad you think you're opinion is more valid than mine of such original works. I'm just trying to say the outcry I've been seeing - and not commenting on (as I do ignore many of these topics, but every now and then I feel entitled to spark a debate, whether it's welcome or not) should be more relaxed until we see something that we can have an actual reaction to - which, quite frankly would be the trailer, if nothing else.

Your love for Buffy will not be ruined by a remake. Nor will my love.
didifallasleep, I don't need to see the trailer to know what I'm reacting to: a project that goes against the wishes of the source material creator, made on the wave of the perceived vampire craze.

And, yes, I also resent the blanket accusations of hypocrisy. I don't feel the same passion of Burton's source material as I do for Buffy, that part is true. But I also won't be dismissing the concerns of the passionate fans of that source material.

So, please kindly don't dismiss my concerns -- even if you don't share them.

[ edited by Effulgent on 2011-01-16 06:42 ]
Actually as a point of interest didifallasleep, I didn't want to see any of those films either and really didn't like what Burton did with Charlie and the Chocolate factory. I'm a strong advocate of s8 and if you check my posts, have always been. In general I don't go to see remakes and when I do I often dislike them, not because they're remakes, but because they're inferior. So by that logic, do I, and those like me, have much more authority is air our grievances toward this project? If so, I shall.

Besides, this isn't a remake as much as it is a reimagining. Possibly like Nolan's Batman(which I mentioned in another thread that I didn't like either, his Batman is not making an impression on me, I want the villains to win) or like Fincher's Girl With the Dragon Tattoo. Not a remake of those that have gone before it.
didifallasleep, you could have phrased your argument without resorting to bashing your fellow posters. Tone it down.
What Tonya J and Effulgent said. And maybe someone who is so obviously missing the point, shouldn't be calling others hypocrites.

ETA: Oops, missed the ever vigilant Simon's comment. My bad.

[ edited by Shey on 2011-01-16 11:22 ]
I still am amazed that this is a newsworthy phenomena. That's not a knock on a frontpage post, it's a legit post, a "Buffy" actor giving an interview on a "Buffy" topic. But more the theory behind it; what is sincerely interesting about such a quote? I've talked about this before -- even if an actor or writer that's asked about this really doesn't care all that much one way or another, there's just no way in hell that it would be in their interest to say so anyway.

Look at the question Alyson is asked -- if she would like to "crap on" the reboot. The expectation of the interviewer and the likely audience are laid bare right there; Alyson's expected role in this discussion is to join the predictably unanimous opposition, and that's it. Whether the interviewer asks it that way is a winking nod to how predictable the answer will be, or whether it was a genuine tip-off as to what was expected, the result is the same -- there is only one socially acceptable opinion on this subject.

Which I, of course, don't share. I grow more interested in the reboot every time one of these interviews come up, and actually hope it's a hit. Maybe, after it breaks $150 millon by the 3rd or 4th weekend, it will finally hit home that nobody's DVD sets evaporated, that the show is still the show and always will be the show, that nobody has forgotten the difference between old and new BSG, the "Fugitive" show and movie, Burton and Nolan "Batman", etc.
Gonna have to agree with KoC. The girl writing this new film, Whit, is taking all this (very harsh) criticism surprisingly considering this is her first real outing in this field, and I think everybody's being far too harsh with absolutely nothing to go on. Was it not expected that Joss would hate the idea? You mustn't forget he wrote away his own rights to Buffy here, in making the first film - he didn't have to accept the contract put before him, and he certainly didn't have to give those rights away. Joss sold them, and as much as I respect him, it's rather hypocritical of him to then complain about it because it has resulted in a second film without his involvement. I truly hope Whit makes a good job of it, and will see this film release day. :)
Tbh I'm more worried about the new BSG film.

However I continue to find it amusing how un-amusing a lot of people seem to find new-Buffy bashing when I'm continuing to revel in and laugh at all the insults from cast and crew and genereally anyone I know who loves Buffy. Go team!
Joss sold them, and as much as I respect him, it's rather hypocritical of him to then complain about it because it has resulted in a second film without his involvement.

In fairness, Joss has "complained" about it a lot less than some of his fans. His statement on the matter makes it clear that he'd rather it didn't happen (which makes him human) but doesn't wish the people involved ill (which makes him nice/professional). And he's obviously well aware of the legal situation.
Perhaps complained was the wrong word here - I just feel that for him to make a statement about his disappointment in it is slightly hypocritical when it was he who sold it, and when he is currently rebooting the Avengers franchise, which he pointedly mentioned himself. I have no doubt he wishes them no ill, but when the whole world is obsessed with remaking and rebooting films for profit, he had to expect that sooner rather than later this was going to happen, especially with the current vampire craze. I personally hope that Whit comes up with a good reinterpretation of the series. If she does what was done to Dragonball Evolution, however (my childhood still hasn't quite recovered from that monstrosity) it'll make no odds - Joss' Buffy will always be THE Buffy, and it's not as if a reboot will ever stop that.
I'm not sure if the "Joss sold it and thus doesn't have the right to complain" argument makes sense. The fact is if you want to make a studio film you pretty much have to sell the rights in order to get the project financed and made. After that, he spent seven years broadening the idea, making it work, and creating some seriously compelling television with it. Buffy was a large proponent of Whedon's life for that entire period, and it is again with the comic version. I think him being annoyed about the fact that the people who originally butchered the original concept have shopped it around too prey on a vampire craze is not only human, but entirely understandable.

As for the Avengeres reboot. Comic book movies are being made everywhere, and the Avengeres is a series that has passed through at least a hundred hands throughout it's tenure, without a firm guiding voice throughout. It's not really the same situation.
...I just feel that for him to make a statement about his disappointment in it is slightly hypocritical when it was he who sold it, and when he is currently rebooting the Avengers franchise, which he pointedly mentioned himself.

Well i'd agree that it'd be hypocritical if he said "It's wrong, they shouldn't be making it" but he doesn't say that, he just says he's not happy that they are. Which is perfectly understandable to me - Buffy's his baby, something he created and not only that but he's obviously not finished telling the story so of course it's going to be hard to see someone else tell their version. I bet if you asked most creators whether they were happy their work was being remade they'd at least be ambivalent (particularly if they're not even entitled to the - arguably dubious - compensation of, y'know, compensation). And since, as far as i'm aware, he's never said "Creators shouldn't be unhappy when their creations are remade" then he's not being hypocritical by being unhappy.

Re: rights, no-one is arguing that they don't have the right to do it (least of all Joss - as he explicitly acknowledges, he's benefiting from the same system in doing the Avengers movie).

I personally hope that Whit comes up with a good reinterpretation of the series.

I personally hope she comes up with a reinterpretation of the film since that's what they own. Nothing from the series can - or should - be included in the reboot, if it is then I will be annoyed since that'll simply be a rip-off rather than a remake/re-imagining.
Justifying that the Avengers film isn't the same situation because 100s of people have done it already is ridiculous - just because Whit is the first to remake his brainchild doesn't make the fact that's he remaking somebody elses any different. Not that this makes him a bad person for doing so - its just something you accept and move on from. Joss doesn't seem to have - he's made this into a huge deal with his statement, whether he openly criticized it or not. It's fairly obvious that such a loyal fanbase would rally around his opinion, and i'm fairly sure he'll've known this when he spoke. As a result, the cast and then fans are now largely opposed to the film, which I can't help but feel is unfair. This isn't some big shot remaking a film, it's a girl with an IMDB profile spanning three films trying to make the best film she can out of a sub-par film, with influence from an outstanding series. The noble thing to have done would've been to wish her luck and keep his disdain to himself.

Also, I love Joss. I'm starting to sound like I dislike the guy here. ;)

EDIT: I'm also not a Whit's biggest fan or anything like that. These are starting to sound worrying like love letters to Whit Anderson.

[ edited by Cerberus on 2011-01-16 16:12 ]
Warner Bros are remaking the film. Had Whit not come along, more than likely they would have got someone else.
Look back at the initial threads and you'll see I was defending her personally from quite early on when fans started piling into her but that said, let's not start mythologising Whit Anderson here or creating a victim box for her to fit into, she's not single handedly remaking the film and she's not the plucky underdog in this story - she's writing it and the people who own the rights are remaking it. At least one of the producers also produced a little arthouse flick called 'The Dark Knight' so these aren't exactly Hollywood novices here.

Joss doesn't seem to have - he's made this into a huge deal with his statement, whether he openly criticized it or not.

Simply not true. Again, look back at the early threads - it was a huge deal among the fans and was being pointed out as probably a bad idea by journalists before Joss opened his mouth.

And, to be blunt, fuck 'noble', give me honest any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Warner Bros are remaking the film. Had Whit not come along, more than likely they would have got someone else.


Oh, of course, I don't dispute that, nor do I dispute the fact that Warner Bros are set to be the guiding force behind it all. And you don't need to justify your opinion on Whit, Saje - i'm sure that very few people here are dead set against her personally.

On your comment concerning nobility, I don't think honesty what necessary in this situation. Press gladly assumed Joss would be upset about this, and if the fans were protesting before Joss spoke, they sure were a hell of a lot more afterwards. There simply was no need - whether he agreed or not, to give an opinion that would almost certainly rile the fanbase up even further against the film is hardly giving it the chance to shine. This film could be stellar and still a lot of fans would rubbish it out of blind loyalty, and I really don't think that's a fair approach by Joss, whether he likes it or not. Reboots happen. Joss really couldn't fool himself into thinking they'd wait until after his death out of politeness. Lets face it, a fair few sites are claiming Joss was given the chance to be involved - if he turned it down, he really can't complain about them passing it on to someone else.
His agent was apparently approached about Joss becoming involved when the Kazuis were still producing it (i.e. before they optioned the rights). Given that he's been fairly clear that working with them wasn't a good experience and that at the time he was making 'Dollhouse' it seems pretty reasonable that he'd say no (added to that "being involved" obviously hides a multitude of potential sins - it could mean anything from writing/directing it to a basically meaningless producer credit, we don't know enough to judge).

There simply was no need - whether he agreed or not, to give an opinion that would almost certainly rile the fanbase up even further against the film is hardly giving it the chance to shine.

Well, as you say Cerberus, they don't owe him renumeration, or involvement or even the courtesy of waiting until he's finished telling Buffy's story before remaking the film. Likewise it obviously follows that he doesn't owe them lies of omission in order for their film to have a chance to shine - he was asked for his opinion on the remake and he gave it. Why shouldn't he ? And if he's not happy about it (which as I say, I find totally understandable) then he's free to say so, just as they're free to make it in the first place. It cuts both ways.
Joss being disappointed is his right, and I think he's done a great job of being professional about it. He didn't make the "Avengers" comparison by accident, and it's amusing to me how many times I've seen people rush to draw a distinction between that and "Buffy" as though Joss is just mistaken about the parallel, or he's being too hard on himself.

Interviews like this, where the question is obviously meant to entice the subject to throw out some more red meat even though you couldn't throw a rock and find a single person in the world who even thinks it's plausible one of Joss' former employees from the show is going to go on record in favor of the reboot, they just bother me.

Joss sold the rights and the fact that that is what it takes to get a movie made really isn't relevant. Yeah, he spent 7 years broadening the concept and making it newer and better, but none of that will (or even is allowed) to be part of the reboot. The only thing the TV show brings to this reboot is notoriety and credibility to the brand, which really isn't any different than what, for instance, the John Byrne remake of the Superman comics did in terms of making that title more marketable to the benefit of future writers.

What I really love is when this all turns into an anti-copyright roll, which I've seen on a few of these threads, when the last thing anybody seems to want is "Buffy" in the public domain, free for anyone and everyone to write a book or movie or TV show about.
You're just not ready for my Clem/Ms Kitty Fantastico fanfic is all. Philistines !
It does indeed Saje, and in no way am I saying he owes them anything. In the end, he had a choice how to approach the matter, that being to either further incite the fans or let it go, wish them look and move on. Personally, I believe he chose the former. His comments were fully within his right and not aggressive or angry, and yet I don't doubt Joss knew how it'd be taken, whether he'd out swinging or approached it the way he did. My opinion of it all is that it might've been better to avoid the bad blood altogether and make no statement at all. The media is largely to blame in all of this, they've loved stirring it all up. Saying all of this, my perspective as an onlooker makes it difficult to see it through Joss' eyes - I've never had my brainchild rebooted, so anything I write is fairly sterile without that outlook.

The whole ' no series material' thing is going to make this new film very difficult, on a side note. No Xander, Willow, Spike etc. will be very alien. Could be pretty interesting to see what route it's taken down, or complete trash. Either way, I don't think it's going to feel too much like Buffy, for better or worse. :/
A couple of points:

1) Joss Whedon clearly made his statement in response to someone's question. "No comment" would have sounded much harsher than what he actually said.

2) What he said was very classy. There's also the matter of the fact that while what's been optioned is the movie rights, it's entirely possible that nobody would *care* about those had Joss not made a very successful TV series (I think does have literal ownership in rights there).

3) With the way Writers Guild of America deals are structured, I am pretty sure Joss *does* get paid something for the remake, because he is still the creator of the material. He doesn't now have the choice to say, "Thank you, you keep the money and please don't make the movie" (if that would be his choice), but he does get paid.
I see how no comment could have come across if questioned, but i'm sure he could've worded the same sentiment in another way. And i'm not sure about how much ownership he has over the tv rights - anybody have a better idea than me?
. In the end, he had a choice how to approach the matter, that being to either further incite the fans or let it go


Why does he have to take the fans into account in what he says about his creation?
Because without the fans, he wouldn't have a creation that got past Season 1 in the first place, and he certainly wouldn't have a successful comic book commissioned for a second season. The fans are a very important part of his creation. At least some thought should go into how it would be received and if the reaction would be positive or negative as a whole.

[ edited by Cerberus on 2011-01-16 19:50 ]
Half the Buffy fans don't know who he is, a quarter of them can't stand him, a fifth of them are ambivalent about what he achieved and it's really this site that listens to him properly. Or thereabouts.
Personally I find that the more mindless vitriol I see thrown at this project the more inclined I am to think it's going to end up being a critical and financial success (a bit of poetic justice if you like.) :)
Half the Buffy fans don't know who he is, a quarter of them can't stand him, a fifth of them are ambivalent about what he achieved and it's really this site that listens to him properly. Or thereabouts.



I'm fairly sure I've never disputed that, so what has it really got to do with it?
Because at the end of the day what Joss says has very little influence on the Buffy fandom. The reason why most Buffy fans don't like the reboot isn't because of what he has or hasn't said.
If you look back at half the posts concerning this film on Whedonesque, the fact that his name tends to be included in the majority of the negative posts suggests that in fact what Joss says and feels has a huge influence on our fandom and our feelings towards this movie.
If you look back at half the posts concerning this film on Whedonesque, the fact that his name tends to be included in the majority of the negative posts suggests that in fact what Joss says and feels has a huge influence on our fandom and our feelings towards this movie.

By my eye, only insofar as his opinion seems to back up a particular fan's opinion (notice how often people dead set against the project mention the positive aspects of his statement on it.)

The reason why most Buffy fans don't like the reboot isn't because of what he has or hasn't said.

Which, of course, begs the question - What is the chief reason why so many Buffy fans supposively don't like the idea of a movie reboot؟

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2011-01-16 20:41 ]
Which, of course, begs the question - What is the chief reason why so many Buffy fans supposively don't like the idea of a movie reboot.


Exactly. If it's not Joss' disapproval, why else would so many people unanimously slam it?
If you look back at half the posts concerning this film on Whedonesque, the fact that his name tends to be included in the majority of the negative posts suggests that in fact what Joss says and feels has a huge influence on our fandom and our feelings towards this movie.

If this was true Dawn would be much more popular than she is.
Exactly. If it's not Joss' disapproval, why else would so many people unanimously slam it?

Well, some people were outraged on his behalf (because regardless of the legal situation they see Buffy as Joss' baby), some people just thought "The film with little Joss involvement was a bit crap, the series with lots of Joss involvement was pretty amazing therefore Buffy without Joss is likely to be a bit crap" (does that follow ? Not necessarily but what do you expect from fans ?) and some were a bit of both. Generally the sentiment was (again, rightly or wrongly) that it's unfair of new creators to come in and remake the film mainly because Buffy wouldn't be recognisable, wouldn't really be a worthwhile property if not for the series and that was nothing to do with the current rights holders and a lot to do with Joss Whedon.

Whatever the reason though, as I say, look at the initial thread. Many fans on here and elsewhere (including journalist-fans) were deeply unhappy about it before Joss ever publicly voiced his "disapproval" (i'd say in fact that he was even asked in the first place because there was something of an outcry). If he'd said "It's fine with me, best of luck to them" would the outcry have been less or at least shorter lived ? Quite possibly, sans time machine we can't ever know. I do think though, that journalists would still be asking the question of former cast-members, regardless of what Joss said.

[ edited by Saje on 2011-01-16 21:03 ]
If you look back at half the posts concerning this film on Whedonesque, the fact that his name tends to be included in the majority of the negative posts suggests that in fact what Joss says and feels has a huge influence on our fandom and our feelings towards this movie.


Whedonesque does not represent the Buffy fandom. One of the major reasons why Joss' name was included in the majority of posts here is because they were made by Joss Whedon fans.

Which, of course, begs the question - What is the chief reason why so many Buffy fans supposively don't like the idea of a movie reboot؟


Oh silly personal glorious reasons that won't matter a damn to Warner Bros beancounters. Things like "it's my show", "they've no right", "it was perfect, why remake it"", "it's far too soon" that sort of thing.
Joss sold them, and as much as I respect him, it's rather hypocritical of him to then complain about it because it has resulted in a second film without his involvement. I truly hope Whit makes a good job of it, and will see this film release day. :)

Cerberus | January 16, 14:12 CET

----------------------------------------------

I don't think you know how Hollywood works. Buffy wouldn't have been made if he hadn't sold it. Writers of films get very little power and it's rare they get a film made without signing over all power. Joss has said many times that the film became a mess and he regrets it.

This isn't a Buffy film. It's a cash in, it's not being made because of the character or the fanbase or because it's a great story to tell.

This is a pure cash in based on a vampire craze which will probably have worn off by the time the film comes out straight to DVD.

The sad thing about it is that this means the end of any Joss led Buffy, whether that be a reboot, a TV Movie or a spin off series. If it does well(which I doubt) they wont need Joss or Buffy as we know it, if it as I predict does badly no one will touch anything to do with Buffy for a long long time.

So that's why people are upset. The end of the Buffyverse just so some greedy business man can cash in on a teen craze.
Whedonesque represents a fair chunk of what is left of the Buffy fandom - Many have simply forgotten now, or moved on, or do not discuss it online, and this is the most complete remnant of the show's fanbase still active. Of course everybody here is a Whedon fan (or, at least, the large majority, I would imagine), but seeing as this is one of the two only sites I frequent (and can find still active) for this fandom I have little other basis for opinion besides news articles and interviews. I don't even think Buffyworld has a thread on the movie.

[ edited by Cerberus on 2011-01-16 21:29 ]
This isn't a Buffy film. It's a cash in, it's not being made because of the character or the fanbase or because it's a great story to tell.

You seem to have a remarkable level of knowledge concerning the creators' inner motivations and the end result's artistic merits considering we're discussing a project which doesn't even really exist yet. Pray tell - was there a crystal ball involved in the info gathering? If so, could I borrow it for a spell?

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2011-01-16 21:33 ]
but seeing as this is one of the two only sites I frequent (and can find still active) for this fandom


There's quite a few places that discuss far Buffy more than us. Livejournal, tumblr, twitter, IMDB, the various subforums of genre sites, Slayalive etc.


pray tell - was there a crystal ball involved in the info gathering? If so, could I borrow it for a spell?


I'd like to think we can conduct this conversation amiably and without the dripping sarcasm directed towards other posters.
Reducing the drippage sounds like a good idea, if only to keep Simon from having to mop up the mess before someone accident--

*slips in sarcasm*

*assplants*

*pops back up like a champ*

I'm okay, I'm okay. Nothing to see here.
Saje: I'd read that fic. It'd go with my Mr. Gordo/Miss Kitty Fantastico fic.
Sorry, Simon. Meant no disrespect to posters, honestly. Just tired of the negativity on here and wanted to spark a debate. This topic just tends to get very pessimistic and the reason why I typically don't post my viewpoint. Because I don't see a problem with remakes/reimaginings aside from their common annoyance in fanbases. They don't ruin the original. I'm not saying I'm for or against this particular Buffy. I mean, I love Joss Whedon. Obviously. That's why I'm here.
Personally I find that the more mindless vitriol I see thrown at this project the more inclined I am to think it's going to end up being a critical and financial success (a bit of poetic justice if you like.) :)

Personally, my vitriol doesn't simply stem from me being a fan of Buffy, but a writer. The thought of my own creations that I care about being handled by anyone, without my consent, is very personal to me, and far from being mindless.

And I don't care if this movie ends up being a Citizen Kane of vampire movies wrapped in Casablanca, made by the next Kubrick wrapped into Hitchcock (ok, this didn't come out right) and makes more money than Avatar and Titanic combined. In fact, now that it's pretty much inevitable, I'd rather it being good and I'd rather it earn enough money for someone to potentially want Joss to make movies set in his 'verse.

I don't presume to tell other people what their attitude towards this movie should be: crap on it or invite it to a candlelit dinner, if you like. I know I will not be contributing to it in any shape or form.
Sorry Simon - guess I've sprouted sprung a leak (reminds me of my poor car...)

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2011-01-16 23:21 ]
That's why I always try to drive mine on land, that way leaks don't matter so much.
The thought of my own creations that I care about being handled by anyone, without my consent, is very personal to me, and far from being mindless.


But Joss did consent. His consent is definitive in the form of the contract he signed that sold the right to do exactly this.
I don't presume to tell other people what their attitude towards this movie should be: crap on it or invite it to a candlelit dinner, if you like. I know I will not be contributing to it in any shape or form.

I think the concern here is more about people coming to arbitrary conclusions about whether or not there's anything worthwhile to the project and then presenting such opinions as final prognoses when they are not yet in a position to say either way.

Speaking as both a consumer and a working professional in the performing arts there are few things that tick me off more than people who go rushing off to judgment on projects they haven't even seen yet. Once/if the film comes out you can love or hate it all you like, but if you never even give it that one chance - and especially if you encourage others to do likewise - what kind of precedent does that set for the other fledgling artistic ventures that are bound to emerge in the near future? If making sure a lousy Buffy remake gets a fair shake (especially among genre fans whose honed senses of taste for this kind of stuff are unparalleled) leads to a Serenity 3 getting the same kind of beneficial treatment, who's to complain?
I probably should have worded my original post better, as this was more or less the point I was actually trying to make in between a crazy night at a emergency veterinary clinic. Thank you, brinderwalt.
But Joss did consent. His consent is definitive in the form of the contract he signed that sold the right to do exactly this.

Giving one's consent doesn't guarantee one from feeling violated. Which is how I kind of feel, both on behalf of Joss and myself as a fan and a writer. While I am rational enough to know how irrational this feeling is, and don't expect that anyone would share this feeling (in fact, I wouldn't wish that jupon anyone because it sucks), I am not ok with the idea of making such a movie. The quality of the resulting movie is also irrelevant to my attitude to the whole concept.

brinderwalt, I agree that we don't know the consequences of this movie's quality and success. They can end up being very positive for Joss and the fandom. After all, the poorly received Airbender movie resulted in more people wanting to see the original show precisely because fans kept pointing out how superior the show was to the movie, and lead to a show spin-off. And, however resented it was by the fans of the original True Grit, the remake has been successful both artistically and financially.

Still, while I don't go around encouraging and discouraging anyone to watch or not watch this reboot, I am equally entitled to my choice.
Speaking for myself, I'm against the movie because:

1) I saw the original movie, and I saw the series, and of the two, I find the series far superior; so I'd prefer it if Joss was running any "reboot"; and

2) There have been lots of "re-boots", "re-imaginings", "remakes", etc, over the past couple of decades, and the vast majority of them, in my not-so-humble opinion, would have been better classed as "parodies" of the original material - even those that weren't intended that way.

So excuse me if I don't trust anyone else with this. Ms Anderson may write a very creditable script, but I look at what happened with Joss's original script, and I have to wonder how much difference that's likely to make.
When passionate people witness an intent different from their own applied to the object of their passion the natural reaction isn't thrill. Disappointment in all its various forms and intensities is more likely.

People with a different set of passions are working to apply a different intent on the object of your passions, and your reaction?

I think Joss, cast and crew's reactions are natural. It seems to me Joss has been polite when asked about his reaction to this new intent cavorting with the object of his passion. A hypocrite would suggest they are not disappointed when they really are disappointed. Joss is having a polite, natural response and I think it is natural to understand his response because we share the same object of his passion.
I'm generally pro-reboots, but the issue I have with the Buffy one, besides the fact it based on a long-running television series as opposed to multiple comic books, films or tv shows, is that it has Buffy in the title. The form is fine, the world-building would be okay, but Joss' show is such a personal journey. Sarah Michelle Gellar is Buffy*. Leonard Nimoy appeared in the '09 Star Trek film, and that series is known for its prequels, sequels and spin-offs.

Comic-books have always been written by many authors, but the point more there is that they haven't yet been realised in film.

Also, to do with destroying the legacy, I never watched the original series but I'm under the impression that HBO's Sex and the City was a fairly well received one. The films absolutely destroyed that show, and that was even with the help of one of the shows original writers. *Imagine if the girls were recast. Or the Gilmore Girls for a film - it'd simply not work, surely? People can understand having Tom Welling as Clark Kent on the TV and someone different for the films, but an X-Files film without David and Gillian? Seriously? They are the show, more than the aliens?

After seeing The Last Airbender, it might have made a couple of people want to watch Avatar but that's just to do with buzz.

Not to mention, there's still a hell of a lot of a chance that this film will just get stuck in development hell, no? (Joss might then pick it up once he's a big time film guy haha).
Lots of good points there, Jaymii.

I argued in previous threads that there's a big difference between what's right, legally or morally, and ones personal reaction to this.

Personally, I'm with Joss, the cast and a large part of Joss' fandom. I'm not down with this Joss-less remake/reboot/whatever-the-heck-it'll-be. I have no interest in Buffy that is not made by Joss, while he is still working in his world himself. If he had come out and said 'I'm done here, move along', it'd probably have been different for me. As for now, I'm sticking with the creator of this character and her world.

Now, all this doesn't mean that this reboot/remake/whatever-the-heck-it'll-be is wrong. I hope it's good. I hope people enjoy it. I don't hope it'll be a success, because that'll lessen the chance (if there ever was one) of a filmed continuation of the Buffy I know and love, but having said that, I harbor no ill feelings toward the people involved with this movie - it just isn't for me.

I was watching an episode of Homicide: Life on the Streets yesterday - I recently bought the complete series boxed set and am watching that show now for the first time (if you haven't, by the way, do. It's great.). In it, Al Giardello, leader of the detective's shift, gets passed up for promotion after 30 years on the job in favor of a (quite capable) woman who's only been there 10 years. After this happens, he says to the woman who does get the promotion, something like: 'I'll say this just once. I'm not angry with you. I'm just angry.' And that's how I feel about the Buffy reboot.

I don't care that Joss sold the rights, I don't care that nobody did anything wrong, I'm just dissapointed that someone other than Joss gets to continue this story while Joss' version is still going on.

Plus, like Jaymii says: this case is not exactly comparable to others. A David and Gillian-less X-Files is a good example, of something that'd approach this. An even better fit would be a completely new movie that has nothing to do with X-Filed-the-show, apart from the title and the name 'Mulder.'

At the end of the day, this is not like doing Avengers. It'd be more like someone rebooting Avengers as another movie after Joss' movie is finished and he's still writing the not-yet-announced sequel. At the end of the day, the particulars of this thing are very, well, particular. At least in how they make me, as a fan of Joss and the world he created, feel. And I think those feelings are justified, no matter the legality or morality of the case by itself.

Others are certainly allowed to make a movie, but that doesn't mean we - or Joss, or the cast - aren't allowed to feel bad that they are. Those feelings are not regulated by law or morality.

As an for instance of a different case where that might be true, I give the following: while it might be morally and legally okay to - for instance - date my ex-wife, even after I divorced her fair and square - it's still okay for me to feel that that sucks and it's even okay for me to say so, if I happen to feel that way. It's also okay if I then don't want to be friends with this new guy, even if he's a great person and did nothing wrong and we might otherwise have hit it off just fine. Legality and morality be damned :).
At the end of the day, this is not like doing Avengers.

For me the point isn't that it's exactly the same situation GVH, the point is that both situations result from the same way of doing things i.e. the way created works are also properties, ownership and creative stewardship of which can be bought, sold and generally transferred similarly to other property (which IMO Joss, with his Avengers comment, is explicitly acknowledging - he may not like this specific situation, may even not like the system itself in general terms but he works within it and benefits from it - financially at least, emotionally it's maybe less clear-cut ;) - and seems to acknowledge that that constitutes at least tacit acceptance of it).

He still feels bad, same as many of us. So it goes.
I think what sort of bothers me is that I don't have a sense that anybody at the reins of this project - and if Joss Whedon had no power on the first "Buffy" film, Whit Anderson likely has even less power here - has indicated they have a passion for/understanding of the source material. This sounds like someone went, "Okay, we can make money with this," without any comprehension of what "this" is beyond its title, which has teenaged girl and "vampire" in it. There are freaking *zillionz* of vampire slayer movies out there ("Van Helsing," "Priest," "Ultraviolet," "Daybreakers," "Blade," ad infinitum). If they made this movie and just didn't call it "Buffy," nobody would have a problem. It's like if someone put up a sign saying "This way to rollercoaster," we'd expect a rollercoaster. If there isn't one, we will be disappointed because we've been set up to expect a rollercoaster. If someone put up a sign saying, "This way to ride," we'd accept what we found when we got there (short of a park bench). This is a case of someone putting up a "This way to rollercoaster" sign when it seems likely the ride will not be what we associate with rollercoasters.
Effulgent: ...nothing will stop this movie from happening.

Well, the movie hasn't gone into production yet, so having followed many movies that I wanted to see get made, only to fall apart for a large variety of reasons, there's still a lot that could stop this movie.

As for being hypercritical of liking some remakes while saying others should not be made, I wonder if the reaction from some fans would be the same if more time had passed since the tv show and Joss wasn't working creating more stories for Buffy? Also I think it would have helped if say a well respected director or writer came out and said he/she has a really great idea for a Buffy reboot and that is why they are pushing for it to be made. Rather than coming across as a quick cash in to the vampire romance craze.

For Buffy fans, it might be more annoying that Joss was trying to make Buffy tv movies or straight to DVD movies not to long ago and was shut down (or at least not given the budget needed). If the vampire romance craze had happen just a little bit earlier, maybe these movies could have been made.
Matt_Fabb, you're right, the road to a completed movie is rocky, and it may not happen. I just prefer not to keeps my hopes up.

Joss was trying to make Buffy tv movies or straight to DVD movies not to long ago and was shut down (or at least not given the budget needed).


Exactly.

One of the troubling possibilities of this movie is, if they stuff it up (and that doesn't have to be due to the movie, it can be poor marketing) and it doesn't perform well at the box office, the chances of real Buffyverse movies with Joss at the helm will greatly diminish.

I don't care that Joss sold the rights, I don't care that nobody did anything wrong


That's my thought as well. Fox / WB were in their full legal right to cancel Firefly / Angel. Here, does this make anyone here feel better about their cancellation? 'Cause it's not working for me.
I think that negative publicity is still publicity, and I think no comment at all would be the best way to ensure this movie does not do well. Otherwise, some people who don't know will come to see it just to see what all the hoopla is all about.
Bingo.

I mean, I'm glad that Joss commented, because I wanted to know how he felt about it, but for the most part, barring unforeseen events, #Nuffy (or #BINO) is dead to me, and I'm treating it like I do a number of other Things That Shall Not Be Named.

They ain't getting my free negative publicity, nossir.

; >
They already have a "narrative" (if/when it comes out it'll get critical attention because journalists can either be "We thought it would be terrible and... it is" or "We thought it would be terrible and... we were very pleasantly surprised" - there's a story there, just like "Plucky underdog fans get 'Serenity' made" was the narrative for that) and one thing i'm sure of is my own lack of importance in the grand scheme of things so to me what we say (or don't say) makes bugger all difference.

The main reason i'm unlikely to get too involved in future conversations is (meaning no offence to anyone here), we're already repeating ourselves now, two months after the news broke - what's it gonna be like in two years (in the - IMO unlikely - event that the film isn't once again stalled in development hell by then) ?
Yeah, déjà vue all over again is definitely a factor for me, too, Saje.

BTW, I'm not implying that anyone's breathlessly waiting for my opinion about #Nuffy - anymore than I think Ms. Palin or Ms. Coulter cares that I no longer tweet about them ; > - I just don't want to add one needless teensy drop more to the Echo Chamber of Horrors.

Ooops. Like I just did. ; > I mean after this post.

Starting.... now.
Well, you may not lack importance in the grand scheme of things QG, I can only be sure of myself ;).

(it's just that i've seen this "We shouldn't talk about X, people will see it and then badness will ensue" idea come up before and for me it doesn't hold water, I don't think the world at large cares that much what we talk about on here and I particularly don't think we should act as if they do - that way madness lies)
*shrugs* I don't harbor ill will toward the writer. However the film comes out, it won't diminish my love of BtVS series because it won't have anything to do with that.

But I won't be watching any Jossless Buffy movie made, produced or financed by the WB.
Very good post, Shapenew. And I like that analogy.

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