"It's curtains for you, Dr. Horrible. Lacy, gently wafting curtains."
February 14
2011
25 Great TV "I love You's".
Another lovely Buffy-Angel 'verse mention in honor of Valentine's Day.
lmblack21
| AtS
| 16:10 CET
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73 comments total
| tags: buffy, angel, valentine's day
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CaptainB | February 14, 16:30 CET
Enisy | February 14, 17:09 CET
fortunateizzi | February 14, 18:24 CET
jettamesis | February 14, 18:58 CET
Funnily enough, they don't even say "I love you" to each other in that scene at all, though Angel does say "Because more than ever I know how much I love you" - but it's all about the love and sacrifice. I guess that is rather the point.
I don't know if I could choose which actual "I love you" is my favorite between Buffy and Angel - all are beautiful, angsty and heart-wrenching in their own way.
lmblack21 | February 14, 19:02 CET
Buffyfantic | February 14, 19:33 CET
Waterkeeper511 | February 14, 19:36 CET
IWYR always brings a tear, at that point those three little words don't even need to be said.
BlueSkies | February 14, 21:06 CET
My vote goes with the Chosen I love you. So much missed opportunity. Or actually maybe this year I'd go with one of the times Buffy tells Dawn she loves her. That always gets me, being an adoring big sister myself.
eilowyn | February 14, 22:06 CET
Simon | February 14, 23:52 CET
Or Whistler blabs out to her? (After all, it looks like the season will be about consequences).
ETA: Like Eilowyn, I'd vote for the "I love you" in "Chosen". It's a scene that generated the biggest amount of angst and the biggest number of interpretations.
[ edited by Moscow Watcher on 2011-02-15 11:04 ]
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 01:59 CET
Simon | February 15, 02:51 CET
BlueSkies | February 15, 03:02 CET
"....Laura and Bill (aka the President and the Admiral) in "the Hub", BSG.
CaptainB | February 15, 01:30 CET
I so agree, this one should be on the list. Also agree with those who mentioned Chosen.
Shey | February 15, 03:03 CET
Essentially, that day is part of an abandoned timeline. As far as the entire world (not just Buffy) is concerned, it never happened. The only reason Angel can even remember it is that he had to in order to stop it from happening all over again. If Buffy understood and accepted why he did it in that last minute despite how much it hurt, why wouldn't she understand it in the real timeline? But why would it need to be brought up again? It would be pointlessly agonizing to dwell on a happy alternative that wasn't.
Taaroko | February 15, 06:17 CET
Because in fictional drama, truth will out.
Simon | February 15, 06:31 CET
Not necessarily pointless. Buffy has had a lot of trouble getting over Angel, and thinks their relationship ended because he's a vampire. Knowing that they couldn't be together even if he was human, for whatever reason, might have helped her move on.
WilliamTheB | February 15, 06:34 CET
Taaroko | February 15, 06:56 CET
Well that pretty much sums up the Jossverse in a single sentence.
Kaan | February 15, 07:15 CET
Taaroko | February 15, 07:48 CET
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 07:53 CET
electricspacegirl | February 15, 07:55 CET
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 08:13 CET
Even if the Twilight storyline wouldn't have happened in that timeline, you can't pin it all on one single action from years before. You could just as easily blame the whole thing on Darla for deciding that a drunken lout like Liam would make a good Clyde to her Bonnie. Or any number of decisions made by a wide variety of characters. As Dumbledore said, "The consequences of our actions are so complicated, so diverse, that predicting the future is a very difficult business indeed."
Taaroko | February 15, 09:08 CET
MysticSlug | February 15, 09:09 CET
SpendTheNightAlone | February 15, 10:40 CET
[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2011-02-15 19:50 ]
electricspacegirl | February 15, 10:49 CET
Taaroko, yeah but you can look back and see the chain reaction of events.
You forget that events in Angel were pushed into action by forces trying to bring Jasmine back into being. Do we even know how far back it goes?
My take on it has always been that The Powers chose Angel, Darla, Dru, and Spike to create this powerful bloodline that would play a myriad different roles in the war between good and evil.
Hamilton even stated as much when he was fighting Angel in Not Fade Away.
The fates chose Angel. I think they could have had a hand in a lot more than we realize.
My theory on the entire Darla bloodline - stemming from The Master, an ancient and powerful vampire himself - is that each of the Fanged Four had an important role to play. Angel = Champion. Darla = Give birth to Connor, a miracle son - a son of two vampires, who will father Jasmine. Spike = A vampire who fights for his soul to become a Champion. And Drusilla? Why, she's the psychic, the seer. And I think she will surprise everyone and end up being the vampire who achieves Shanshu.
Now that is a graphic novel I'd like to read.
electricspacegirl | February 15, 11:20 CET
No wonder the guy is broody.
redeem147 | February 15, 11:30 CET
Obviously it's absurd to say that the writers aren't responsible, but within the story, when villains like Jasmine and Hamilton make broad "you're all unwitting pawns/puppets of fate"-type statements, I never take their word for it, especially because they could easily have no other reason for saying that than to throw the good guys off their game. They have free will. They make their own choices.
Taaroko | February 15, 11:36 CET
"Nothing's inevitable as long as you stand up, look it in the eye, and say, 'You're evitable!'"
Rachelkachel | February 15, 12:20 CET
@Taaroko - I rewatch earlier seasons and I can't get rid of the new interpretation of everything that happened to Angel - that both Angel and Buffy were played all along to bring Twilight into existence. Joss has always been brilliant at retcons, and in season 8 he conceived an arc that explains all strange events in Angel's life since Whistler found him and showed him Buffy. The goal was to make him fall in love with Buffy (Whistler sent him to help), to keep Angel alive (snow in "Amends"), to keep him a vampire (IWRY), to make him desperate (pretty much everything post-IWRY) to condition him for his Twilight gig.
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 12:33 CET
You're allowed to link to your own stuff in a comment.
Simon | February 15, 13:14 CET
@electricspacegirl - I'm really, really curious about your take on Buffy's reaction after finding out. Link me, please!
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 13:19 CET
In the Buffyverse, sometimes the characters know little hints about the future ahead of time. The visions Doyle and Cordelia get are usually of events that are meant to be thwarted, and there are prophecies worded just vaguely enough to make them self-fulfilling, but the characters always have to make choices in order to bring about those results.
The only things I think Jasmine had actual control over are Darla carrying Connor to term despite trying everything she could to get rid of him and Cordy from "Birthday" onward, thanks to that seemingly innocent "part demon" upgrade she got from Skip. I think that *maybe* Jasmine knew enough about how certain things would play out (or she understood the characters well enough to make educated guesses) that she seized her chance and started tweaking things here and there, but not in the sense of manipulating people's choices while making them believe they were really choosing for themselves.
Moscow, I refuse to believe that Buffy, Angel, or *any* other character has been played from the start. For one thing, that only works when it was the writer's plan all along, which, in this case, it wasn't. For another, that would make the entire series futile, depressing, and hopeless. No thanks. What I will believe is that Twilight saw where they both were post-"Chosen" and "Not Fade Away", and decided to make its move--but NOT by directly manipulating their choices, puppet master style, with them being none the wiser.
Taaroko | February 15, 13:29 CET
As to "futile, depressing, and hopeless" - it's hard to argue, but it doesn't feels this way to me. Buffy was able to resist Twilight's influence and has chosen her friends instead of the fake paradize. To me, it's a hopeful message.
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 13:50 CET
Taaroko | February 15, 14:02 CET
Moscow Watcher | February 15, 14:30 CET
As far as the comics, I see season 8 as proving that Buffy/Angel was NOT predestined to happen - as Whistler himself said, it was a long shot that paid off which does not, in any way, contradict what he said before about TPTB not seeing them coming.
I love IWRY and the way that Joss had it stated by both the conduits AND Doyle that Angel's actions were born of a great love, that he was willing to sacrifice "every drop of human happiness and love he'd ever known for another", that he is "the real deal in the hero department" that not many people, including Doyle (so he thought) had/has. It's awesome and epic and heartbreaking and OMG, yes, the parallels to Buffy offering up her own life and blood to save Angel are strong. Just as strong as Buffy's self-sacrifice to save Dawn in "The Gift".
Simon.....evil, tempting thoughts. I am not sure how I feel about the idea of revisiting IWRY in the comics but I can see the dramatic appeal and potential.
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2011-02-16 01:59 ]
lmblack21 | February 15, 16:50 CET
It's an undeniably beautiful scene, but it hardly ever makes any of these lists -- probably because people don't know what to make of it. Mystery of the Spike/Buffy relationship, like Joss said.
(In regards to Angel/Buffy and this list, I'm still kinda puzzled as to why they chose the -- nonexistent, as Luc pointed out -- "I love you" in I Will Remember You over the one in, say, Becoming #2. The latter's definitely up to snuff.)
Enisy | February 15, 17:51 CET
And Enisy, I think the idea was that there was no need to say "I love you" at that point, three words can never really capture what they went through for each other(see all above posts!) but yeah, the Becoming scene is so like the Chosen one, except with much more angst and pain. She killed him. It hurts more. If he hadn't come back in season 3 then it would have been the single most tragic love story in the history of TV for me.
BlueSkies | February 15, 18:24 CET
Taaroko | February 15, 18:44 CET
Yeah, that would have worked really well for me too - just as heartbreaking and breath-stealing and gut-punching. But then again, I'm not sure if all of the scenes mentioned at the EW article actually have the couples confessing mutual 'I love you's' - for instance, I know Brennan doesn't reciprocate in "Bones" and I can't recall if Booth even says the words "I love you" but it's clearly all about the love.
And there is something so heartwrenching about the "I'll never forget" right before she forgets. Gah.
lmblack21 | February 15, 18:59 CET
electricspacegirl | February 15, 19:33 CET
That was a lovely story and reminds me how gypped we were in that regard for season 7.
Thank you for sharing!
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2011-02-16 05:10 ]
lmblack21 | February 15, 19:54 CET
Anyway, thanks, imblack21. It was my first story so I'm kind of insecure about its quality. I appreciate the feedback.
electricspacegirl | February 15, 20:04 CET
lmblack21 | February 15, 20:10 CET
electricspacegirl | February 15, 20:27 CET
Joss had it stated by both the conduits AND Doyle
Not Joss. IWRY was written by Greenwalt and Jeannine Renshaw.
Moscow Watcher | February 16, 04:28 CET
Joss helped with IWRY as he's stated before (and there are behind the scenes photos that show him on set working with SMG and DB, so he was heavily involved in it), AND he's the creator and show-runner, so it all has his stamp of approval, unless you think any episode not written by Joss means he doesn't agree with what's in the episode.
And that's not even counting how he has talked about loving "IWRY" because it "kind of broke my heart". So I stand by that statment.
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2011-02-16 13:55 ]
lmblack21 | February 16, 04:53 CET
Moscow Watcher | February 16, 04:58 CET
Joss was actually the co-creator of Angel (along with Greenwalt) and Greenwalt was the showrunner for seasons 1 -3. For a long time, it was seen as Greenwalt and Minear's baby. Angel fans didn't really identify Joss with the show until Seasons 4 or 5 from what I recall. In fact there was sizeable fan resistance to him taking a greater role in the show.
Simon | February 16, 04:58 CET
I'm at work, so I'll dig up the quotes when I can, but I just did a quick google search for the picture in question and came up with this one right away and uploaded it for your viewing pleasure:
http://tinypic.com/m/e6c8ld/3
Here's one quick list that has Joss quoting a favorite moment from IWRY:
http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=12266
I'll dig up the "it kinda breaks my heart" for you later, but if you do a google search, you'll likely find it.
Yes, exactly. Joss was the creator, Greenwalt was the showrunner but it all has Joss' stamp of approval, just like everything in seasons 6-7 of Buffy even though Marti Noxon was the show-runner and Joss had much less involvement, particularly in the writing department. Plus, Joss worked on IWRY.
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2011-02-16 14:19 ]
lmblack21 | February 16, 05:15 CET
But with or without Joss's direct involvement it still makes for heartbreaking tv, it doesn't need to be backed up.
BlueSkies | February 16, 05:23 CET
ETA: Now I see the link - Thanks!
[ edited by Moscow Watcher on 2011-02-16 14:26 ]
Moscow Watcher | February 16, 05:24 CET
BlueSkies, I'm glad you can see it and like it! I love the behind the scenes stuff.
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2011-02-16 14:32 ]
lmblack21 | February 16, 05:27 CET
Guess we'll never really know. It's pretty hard to tell on a Joss show what amount of work he puts into each show when they aren't "officially" run by him, and how much executive control the showrunners under him have on the plots and scripts. I mean, even S1 of Dollhouse was apparently showrun by Fain and Craft.
Kaan | February 16, 05:29 CET
Guess we'll never really know. It's pretty hard to tell on a Joss show what amount of work he puts into each show when they aren't "officially" run by him, and how much executive control the showrunners under him have on the plots and scripts. I mean, even S1 of Dollhouse was apparently showrun by Fain and Craft.
I agree though I think multiple people have said Joss' involvement in the latter sesons of Buffy was much more minimal and you can see it just in the fact that in season 6 he only wrote one episode - OMWF. It was an awesome one and no doubt consumed a lot of his time but his lack of presence was really obvious to me in seasons 6/7, though I think he was around more in season 7 than he was in 6.
lmblack21 | February 16, 05:36 CET
BlueSkies | February 16, 06:05 CET
Indeed there was.
menomegirl | February 16, 06:48 CET
Joss and David were the co-creators and David was also the showrunner.
Simon | February 16, 07:32 CET
Yes, I know. *g* I wasn't trying to take away Greenwalt's contribution, merely pointing out that it was also a Joss' production which means his stamp of approval.
lmblack21 | February 16, 07:56 CET
sueworld2003 | February 16, 08:09 CET
Today I rewatched IWRY, and it reads as a precursor to Twilight arc in season 8: Angel makes a decision for Buffy to protect her, basing his actions on the information provided by strangers who tell him that he is special.
Moscow Watcher | February 16, 08:17 CET
It's not really a good parallel though. In IWRY, he made the choice himself, it was after making the choice that the conduits viewed him as being a heroic figure, not a "lower being". Prior to that, they didn't treat him as anything special at all. Not to mention, it was his decision to make about his own life and it was heroic and self-sacrificing. He had no reason to doubt the information of TPTB at that time.
lmblack21 | February 16, 08:42 CET
Really? I thought Angels darker side of his character was explored far better in AtS which was mainly under Greenwalts guidance rather then Josss's.
I also have to say If season 8 is an example of how Whedon sees his character now, well then god help us. A bloke who (to me at least) came across as a bit of an idiot.
sueworld2003 | February 16, 08:51 CET
And now I understand why I love so much seasons 1-3 and not seasons 4-5. Not to mention s8. Seriously, I think Joss has never understood Angel's character. Greenwalt and Minear yes, Joss,no. Season 8 proves it very well. And we're in trouble because now by Joss are Scott Allie and DH, whose lack of knowledge about AtS have been stated for months, almost since 'Twilight reveal'.
aradia | February 16, 08:53 CET
I have the opposite impression. David Fury said that Joss was "every bit around, every day" during Season 6, and there's accounts (from the crew) of him conceiving, writing and/or editing scenes for "After Life", "Flooded", "All the Way", "Tabula Rasa", "Smashed", "Gone", "Dead Things", "Hell's Bells", "Normal Again", "Seeing Red" and "Grave" at the very least.
I think he was more involved in Buffy Season 6 than in Season 7, and more involved in either than in (pre-S5) Angel -- although of course there's no way to know for sure.
ETA: Here's the "kinda broke my heart" quote you were looking for:
Joss Whedon was recently asked to name his favorite "BTVS" and "Angel" episodes. Whedon responded, "Ultimately, 'Innocence,' the episode where Angel goes bad, is my favorite. That was the moment when everybody working on the show realized we had done something that was emotionally true and really different, and taken the show to a whole new level." And how about "Angel?" According to Joss, "The 'Buffy' crossover 'I Will Remember You.' 'Cause it kinda broke my heart."
(Comments were made back when Season 4 of Buffy and Season 1 of Angel were on air; his selections were different in later years, at least for Angel.)
[ edited by Enisy on 2011-02-16 18:36 ]
Enisy | February 16, 09:21 CET
You rock, thanks!!! :-) I think, based on that letter I linked to which was done after the show was over does reflect a broader selection of favorites, yes. IWRY still among those favorite moments though, which just shows good taste. *g*
[ edited by lmblack21 on 2011-02-16 19:56 ]
lmblack21 | February 16, 10:53 CET
[ edited by Enisy on 2011-02-16 19:59 ]
Enisy | February 16, 10:58 CET
BlueSkies | February 16, 16:50 CET
zeitgeist | February 17, 07:45 CET
Oh, he's always been my favorite Angel writer!
lmblack21 | February 17, 20:23 CET