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"I wanted to do a show about people who are not 'super,' just working-class people, the people history steps on. (Joss on Firefly)"
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April 01 2011

Dark Horse reveals plans for Buffy Season 9. Joss will write the first issue and then he and Andrew Chambliss will co-write the rest of the season (Georges Jeanty to do the art). And Buffyfest has an interview with Chambliss talking about his involvement (there's sumptious cover art too). The new Angel series will be called "Angel and Faith", written and drawn by Christos Gage and Rebekah Isaacs (more details on that here, and CBR has an interview with Gage plus artwork). Both titles will be 25 issues long. And read what Scott Allie has to say in this SlayAlive Q&A. Spoilers all over the place. Btw TFAW has the video of the Dark Horse panel where the announcments were made.

"Angel and Faith"

Yeah, that is gonna go down well. :/
IDW books are canon apparently.

I'm following this guy's twitter feed.

http://twitter.com/eminus
More on the "Angel and Faith" book HERE.
Cheers for that. I'm missed the live coverage of these type of events.
We have a SlayAlive member who's in the room, updating as the announcements come out. Exciting times!
I need to go over Chambliss's "Dollhouse" and "Vampire Diaries" episodes again to see if I approve, but I'm preemptively squeeing over the first issue! Joss! ♥
I'm very excited. I understand their reasoning for putting the previous Angel comics in the past, but I hope they respect the continuity well enough; for example, Illyria has been changed recently (mentally and somewhat physically), and if she'll be included in the new comics, it would be nice if they could keep that in mind. Little things like that.

Kaan, I'm personally very excited for "Angel and Faith" and I don't understand why you think it's not gonna be that great. The episodes of Angel featuring Faith were among some of the best in the 'verse, or so is my opinion anyway. They have great chemistry together as characters.
Very cool news all around and I'm familiar with the Angel & Faith writers work at Marvel.
Enisy, Chambliss wrote "A Spy in the House of Love", one of my absolute Dollhouse favorite episodes. I definitely approve!

(Incidentally, that episode sparked the D/D fandom subset of Dollhouse fans. It's all about the subtext.)

[ edited by Emmie on 2011-04-01 23:35 ]
Looks like Isaacs rumour was just about spot on.
Chambliss also wrote "The Public Eye", "Stop-Loss", and co-wrote "Meet Jane Doe" and "Epitaph Two". He's basically become a sort of honorary junior Whedon with the Buffy and Dollhouse comic assignments.
@Waterkeeper511: It isn't that I don't think it will be great. I'm looking forward to it just as much as Buffy. But why name the book "Angel and Faith"? A lot of Angel fans are already nervous about his move back to Dark Horse and the feeling his story will come second fiddle to whatever Buffy's doing. They want Angel to be his own book/story. I just don't see how it's a good idea to add another name to the title. It's been "Angel" since 1999. It think it will smack of something not right to Angel fans. Don't try to fix what ain't broke.

[ edited by Kaan on 2011-04-01 23:41 ]
CBR article on Christos Gage doing "Angel and Faith".
Cheers. I added it to the entry.
I am with Kaan on this one about not wanting Angel to become second fiddle. I liked how the two shows complemented each other without having to yield to each other. Also I am with Waterkeeper on that I want them to honor what's already been written.
I was hoping that Joss would actually be more involved with Angel now, I'm kinda disappointed.
Who's got the skinny on Christos Gage?
I am with Kaan on this one about not wanting Angel to become second fiddle.


I think he would be more second fiddle if stayed in the Buffy title. And also, two battered and bruised Buffyverse figures clinging onto to each other does really interest me.

Also I am with Waterkeeper on that I want them to honor what's already been written.


The IDW stuff is canon? Yes? As said at the Dark Horse panel?

Who's got the skinny on Christos Gage?


Good solid mainstream Marvel and DC writer with a hint of perversion and darkness in his indie stuff.
They have plans for Tara? Sure they do. I have to keep reminding myself its April 1.
Ahh, I see what you mean, Kaan. That's a legitimate concern. But isn't it also fair to feel the same way about Faith? She hasn't had her own series, but I think she deserves to share the spotlight with Angel.

According to the article Emmie just posted, "Angel and Faith" is taking place in London, while we know that Buffy season 9 will take place in San Francisco (for now, anyway). I think that's a pretty clear sign that while there will be some cohesion, Angel will have his own story. And I personally think it's about time Faith gets to co-star. I guess with Joss at the wheel, and with experience having these characters in a comic book form, I'm not too concerned that Angel won't be treated fairly.
I loved Gages Spiker-Man/X-Men miniseries and his Spider-Man/Fantastic Four one.I've also read a bunch of his Avengers: The Initiative and current Avengers Academy.
Buffyfest's interview with Andrew Chambliss just dropped. Check it HERE.
That's a pretty awesome cover in the CBR article. Despite my reservations about the title I am really pumped for that series. Don't know Christos Cage but I'm glad they got an actual comic book writer.
I'm really exited about "Angel & Faith", but I'm worried Allie didn't say Joss will be involved with this too.

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2011-04-02 00:19 ]
Chambliss picks S6 as his favorite Buffy season. Cue the haters!
So, is Spike anywhere in the verse any longer?
That Buffy cover! WOW! Chen is really amping up her backgrounds. I love it.
So, is Spike anywhere in the verse any longer?

Read the Chambliss interview. ;)
So, from what I understand, I can happily continue ignoring mostly everything after "After The Fall" and still enjoy the Angel comics.

And I, for one, do not have a problem with it being called "Angel and Faith" for now. It seems to me that that's the story that'll be told.
Personally, I hope very, very much that changing the title to "Angel and Faith" turns out to be the "April Fool's!" part of this update storm. Love the new Chen artwork, though.
Wow.

Very, very excited for the Jossbliss (Joss/Chambliss).

ETA: From Chambliss on his favourite season:

"AC: This is tough, but I think I'm going to say season 6. Spike and Buffy. The Trio. Dark Willow. In fact, I think I'm going to go watch some Season 6 right now."

A writer after my own heart. So much excitement. And that the guy wrote "Spy" doesn't hurt.

[ edited by WilliamTheB on 2011-04-02 00:43 ]
Chambliss's Angel-Stefan and Spike-Damon comparison is kinda off, but I assume both he and Buffyfest are referring to soulless!Spike, so it's no biggie.

I reviewed which Dollhouse and Vampire Diaries episodes he's written, and now I'm really excited to read his Buffyverse work! His preference for Season 6 is an auspicious sign, since Season 9 will reportedly have a lot of Spike. :)
WilliamtheB -- so that's what you call this feeling! JossBliss indeed. ♥


Enisy, I think Chambliss is talking about Spike as he was for a really long time, so yeah soulless!Spike. And I'd say his description of Spike is pretty accurate for Season 6 (wanting to be bad in spite of the good that can't help coming to the surface), his favorite season.

I'd say that fits soulless Spike really well. It makes me think of him in LMPTM when he wants to be bad with Dru, but he can't help wanting to also bring his mum with them. ;)

Obviously that dynamic changes with his soul to a large degree.

[ edited by Emmie on 2011-04-02 00:41 ]
Yeah but it sounds to me like they won't be using any of the Angel cast, partly in order to avoid any confusion on the parts of those who read the IDW stories and those who didn't...

Or maybe, as Twilight in #36 suggested, recent events for Angel have been wiped from history.
50+ comics in 2 years? Am I reading that right? Holy cow! Happy about the Andrew Chambliss news, and that Jo Chen cover is magical.
Two series!
No waiting!
*pow*
And there are more exclusive interviews/coverage on the "Buffy" and "Angel" comics over at htttp://www.assignmentx.com
from Wondercon ...
I love all these announcements! I love that Faith will finally get to be a co-lead. I love that Spike will be around a lot in season 9. Chambliss wrote some of the best stuff on DH, and it'll be awesome having a writer who loves season 6.

And yeah, I love that IDW is stuff that "counts" but is in the past and that DH isn't going to be figuring out the details. That seems like a diplomatic way of keeping it 'canon' without giving it any power to shape the narrative going forward. And that last bit is what matters the most to me.
The site Shapenew mentioned has more (good!) news on Joss's involvement, if anyone still has lingering doubts.

[ edited by Enisy on 2011-04-02 01:20 ]
Wait, so Faith is in the Angel title? Crap. I totally had him snap her neck in my "Yearbook" story. Gotta go edit that.
From the Gage interview - We had a Buffyverse writers' summit at Joss' house a little while back, and I kept asking all these relentlessly nerdy process questions, like, "If vampires are created when a demon enters a dead person's soulless body, but Earth is now cut off from the Hell dimensions, how are new vampires being made?"

I like this guy already.
My two favorite Buffyverse characters together and co-starring? Life is beautiful! This actually makes me happy that the whole Twilight thing happened. I'm looking forward to seeing some nice references and flashbacks to Angel season 1.

Buffy season 6 is my second fave season after season 3 I think so I like seeing it get some support
As far as Christos Gage goes, I'd say that he's fairly good for a writer who has spent most of his time in the Marvel/DC/Wildstorm super-hero Universes.

The one Independent project of his that I've read, the 'Absolution" mini-series, went rather dark and twisted though. Here's a legal link to the first issue for free (though the pages themselves might take an extra minute or more to load)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/07/07/free-first-issue-of-christos-gages-absolution/
So this is all sort of hard to keep track of, as I'm still working my way through the articles, but is Chambliss the only co-writer?

If so, I will miss all the other Buffy writers (and BKV) contributing their visions but on the other hand, maybe it would be a bit more focused under primarily two people, even if Joss would presumably be very busy. Also I really dug Chambliss' work on Dollhouse so I just sort of imagine he'd know what he's doing with even more established characters.

(Oh, and as for other returning creative figures, does this mean that Jo Chen is doing all the covers for the Slayerverse? If so yay, that fills the void in my heart from her Runaways covers ending or whenever my local comic book stores ran out of/never ordered her covers.)
@orangewaxlion: It seems that Chen will be providing one of the covers for both books. Since there will be variants, and we already know that Georges has already been working on some, I'm assuming that he will provide the variants for the Buffy book, and the first Angel one (he tweeted about it a while back), with some other artist (possibly Isaacs) providing covers for the Angel book.

I quite like the idea of a streamlined creative team. One of my biggest issues with S8 was how patchy the connections seemed at times. The fact that they're approaching this whole project in a more writers' room manner, with a smaller team gives me hope that S9 will be a more well-oiled machine. The fact that each main book will only be 25 issues long helps too. :)

[ edited by wenxina on 2011-04-02 02:24 ]
Loving Rebekah Issacs work! I cannot wait to see these Angel books.
@orangewaxlion - one of the interviews mentions Jane Espenson and Drew Greenberg taking part in "Buffy summit" at Joss house.
A Reminder: One more hour until the SlayAlive Q&A with Scott Allie goes live. Hopefully many of you will join us!

(You do need to be registered at SlayAlive to participate. But hey, registration doesn't take long.)
I heart Andrew Chambliss' work. Thrilled.
Pretty excited, except for the part where Angel's going to be in London, where I assume he'll have little involvement with the Angel cast, which is a bummer for me.
I'm so ready to plunk down obscene amounts of clash to acquire every single issue!
This all sounds wonderful and those Jo Chen covers are very, very pretty.
Nice Caprica Six outfit, Faith.
Another report HERE, this time by Comics Alliance.
Includes a larger version of Jo Chen's cover for Buffy, and what looks like Jeanty's variant for "Angel and Faith" #1.
That cover of Buffy in SF is truly gorgeous. If nothing else good comes from season 9, I look forward to more Jo Chen pictures of Spike.
I have mixed feelings on some of this news, but those cover are gorgeous!

And since the Angel series is now titled "Angel & Faith" I really hope they drop the Buffy Season 9 part of the title because "Buffy Season 9: Angel & Faith" sounds ridiculous.

As for IDW's place in canon/continuity, all I have to say is we'll see.
Well, I'm cautiously looking forward to this. I enjoyed Season 8 despite its flaws, but I don't know if I will enjoy S9 if those flaws continue. But, it really seems like that won't be the case.

I really don't care for the title: Angel and Faith. I respect that they want it to seem like the two characters will be equal, I just think it sounds awkward. Not that I have a better suggestion.

My biggest concern with the Angel comic is if there will be characters from AtS involved. I really truly hope so. I became very attached to those Gunn, Lorne, Illyria, and Connor (wow, is that really it that's left?) and I don't want their stories to end just because the licence has moved. In particular, I cannot see how they could possibly do an Angel book without Connor. He has a son now. And their relationship is complicated.

As for the IDW continuity issues, I'd be fine with a sort of open continuity. The writers can reference it if they want, but I'd be fine with just acknowledging a general sense of the continuity (post-After the Fall of course, which was amazing and I loved). That after they went to hell and back, Angel was active in LA for a while, had a team, etc., but not necessarily make a big fuss about actual events. That way, people who didn't like the series can pretend it didn't happen, people that did like the series can believe it did, and people like me who were meh about it all can go on being meh. The one thing I am curious about, though, is the characters from those comics. Specifically Betta George. I'd be fine if I didn't see anyone else again, but that floaty fish kinda grew on me.

That Jo Chen Buffy cover is absolutely GORGEOUS.

Overall, I think I'm looking forward to this. I still have yet to go through and reread Season 8. Hopefully I will get to before S9.

[ edited by Giles_314 on 2011-04-02 06:15 ]
So what happened to Gail Simone? Wasn't she originally set to write season 9?
Checked it out, Gail was in talks but never really set for it. She seemed cool enough.
Well Dark Horse hasn't officially announced the writers/artists for the spinoff mini-series so she still could be in with a shout. There is a Espenson Spike tale coming out isn't there?
So what happened to Gail Simone? Wasn't she originally set to write season 9?

She could always be writing one of the other pieces.
True. All possibly true. She seemed like a good fit in the first place. Won't complain with the treat we're getting. Would be nice to see a one shot or mini done by her.

Wasn't Espenson at the season 9 summit?

Would like to see Brad Meltzer and Brian Lynch come back too.
So, there is no reason to read any of the non-Lynch IDW Angel titles. Right? Angel and Faith shouldn't need any of the non-canon stuff that came after that. Right?
So what happened to Gail Simone? Wasn't she originally set to write season 9?

From the ongoing SlayAlive Q&A:

AndrewCrossett: There was a rumor that Gail Simone, of Birds of Prey, Wonder Woman and Secret Six fame, might be involved in season 9. Any plans?

Scott: That was a rumor. I asked her at one point if she was interested in being involved in Buffy, I sent her some books, we corresponded briefly, but in the meantime she's a very busy writer, and we were pursuing other things, namely Joss writing himself with Andrew. Had Joss proved totally unavailable, I'd have been more persistent with Gail, but who knows if she'd have had time. She was great to correspond with, but it never got too deep. The offers open, though, if she wants to have some part in it sometime.

It sounds like Joss has learned from the mess of season 8. He's keeping it shorter and tighter and is co-writing all of it. And Andrew Chambliss is a pretty good writer.

Unfortunately, it's too late for me. Not to be melodramatic but I found season 8 so bad as well as untrue to the characters that I can't accept the comics as the real continuation of Buffy. I'm finished with the comics, which is a pity because it sounds like season 9 is going to be pretty great.
The full Slayalive Q/A with Scott Allie is up

http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/1477-In-Progress-WonderCon-Q-amp-A-with-Scott-Allie-LIVE?p=46372#post46372
Smashing, I'll add that to the entry.
*mourns her nearly 12 hours later addendum to the entry*

Does anybody even notice? ;)

(You heard that in a Dawn voice, right? Thanks much!)

[ edited by Emmie on 2011-04-02 08:25 ]
Does anybody even notice? ;)


Welcome to my world. It just occurred to me that we'll probably see the Spike story in the Dark Horse Presents comic book.
Pshaw! Like you have needs, Simon. You're a robot with a charming accent and an authentic burr, nothing more!
Wow, good Q & A. Excited to see this Angel and Faith cold case files esque comic. I'm assuming that Spike and Illyria team back up and that's why we'll see her in Buffy. Interested to see where Gunn ends up. I will be extremely happy if Beta George finds a home too.
Faith? Angel? Separately awesome. Together...mind. blown.
Thank you merciful gods for answering my many many drunken fanblings(fan ramblings)!! So excited beyond reason for this!!! Oh and the Buffy book sounds cool too.
Emmie, even the people that like Dawn were groaning when that song started, that's not the direction to go for sympathy :) Great job, though.
Re the ATS characters, I'd like to see more of them as well, although I'm not sure about Lorne, after him being given a send off already. (although this is the Buffyverse)
Great news all around! Interesting that Joss will co-write Buffy with only one writer. I'm not familiar with Andrew but i look forward to his work. September can't come soon enough.

I'm taking a 'wait and see' approach with Angel and Faith. The writer's interview was very good and i liked where he wants to take it. Especially the not letting Angel off the hook. But i've been fooled by words before so i'll wait a few issues in before deciding wether to buy the series or not. If the series almost from the start tries to force the "Angel is the golden boy and can do no wrong and is better then everyone"-message then i'm out. Faith nor any other character for that matter can make me tolerate it. I also don't really see the big deal in Faith being part of the title. The shows no longer excist and it's not the mainstream fans that are buying these comics. Having your name in the title doesn't make you the more popular one, Faith has her own legion of fans, comperable if not more then Angel. Spike is one of the if not the most popular character and he doesn't have his own series.
My point being that the shows should not dictate how the comics are run. Two very different medieums that have almost nothing to do with eachother. Buffy and Angel the shows was then, this is now. Joss can tell the story of Buffy(and the rest) exactly the way he wants to, not limited by actors,ratings,budget,ect.

Regarding the canon-status of Idw's comics. Well this was pretty much what i was expecting. Dh regards it as canon but it will have no impact on the stories they are telling. Their readers only need to be aware of s8 and it's happenings to be able to follow Buffy season 9 and Faith and Angel.
Watching the TFAW.com video of the Dark Horse panel right now, and it sounds like Steve Morris (I think he did the Dollhouse oneshot cover) will be the regular cover artist for Angel and Faith.
"Buffy and Angel the shows was then, this is now. Joss can tell the story of Buffy(and the rest) exactly the way he wants to, not limited by actors,ratings,budget,ect. "

Oh god thats worrying then, because imo that was the main problem with season 8. It concentrated on big 'effects' and less on the good strong story telling.
I'm thrilled that Joss has specific plans for Illyria. I'm almost certain he's going to "honor" her recent transformation and take her someplace entirely new, character-wise. I can't imagine Joss throwing out her development in the Angel comics (specifically the "Haunted" mini-series) because I know he cares about his characters, especially since the Angel comics are considered "canon" in terms of S9.

If Joss very much wants to work with Illyria, but she may not appear in Angel and Faith, then I hope this means she'll appear in the Buffy title. And possibly a mini-series. Willow and Illyria? Willyria?

Mentioning that Connor will be handled in Angel and Faith should satisfy a lot of people who were upset about this before, and I hope that this apparent scene in Spike issue #7 will be good enough for those people who care.

[ edited by Waterkeeper511 on 2011-04-02 16:48 ]
I'm not much of a "TV show to books or comics" kind of guy, after decades of trying to love these well-meant but disappointing offspring. So I hadn't bought any Buffy or Angel books. But I jumped on board when I learned that the new run was going to be Season 8, official canon (for what that's worth now) and co-written/directed by Joss. And I'm glad I did buy those comics, and look forward to buying all of Season 9.

But my question is this: Am I understanding this correctly? Is the Angel and Faith title going to be part of Season 9? Or is it more/less complicated than that?

If someone here was able to read all these fabulous interviews/articles and can distill a coherent answer for me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[ edited by blanetalk on 2011-04-02 18:22 ]
sueworld, I agree and disagree. You can have both a big budget and still make it work. I'm a fan of Season Eight but the problems there certainly aren't as simple as removing Mecha Dawnie.

blanetalk there're two 25 issue comics: "Buffy S9: Buffy" and "Buffy S9: Angel And Faith". Some one-shots are likely to be thrown into the mix too.
Simon -- TFAW.com posted the video for the Dark Horse WonderCon panel.

[ edited by Emmie on 2011-04-02 20:01 ]
Jaymii, thank you VERY MUCH! :D
You know, I forgot about Illyria. That Haunted mini-series was excellent and she is another favorite of mine. My god, having her, Faith and Angel working together would be the greatest thing the Buffyverse has ever given me.

I honestly don't care about anyone else. I used to like Gun, but his character has been treading water since After the Fall ended. He just isn't cool or interesing anymore. Same goes for Connor and Spike, who will always just be Spike. I don't hate him, but he is just kind of boring really. He hasn't really evolved as a character at all since both the Buffy and Angel tv shows ended
I'm really looking forward to Season 9. Buffy and gang are back in their "real world" element, Faith is finally getting her own series (albeit co-headlining with-), Angel's franchise is FINALLY back in the same hands as Buffy's. My only concern is that there could be quite a few shipping delays with Joss co-writing the entire run. Joss is always keeping busy with other projects, which is always a good thing for us fans, but I just hope that the 25 issues don't get stretched out over for or five years because he's unable to devote enough time to stick to a monthly schedule.
Not to sound like he's just standing around twiddling his thumbs inbetween issues, but I'd like to hope that if (when?) Joss starts to fall behind, Andrew will be able to pick up the slack.
Delays with a Joss comic is tradition! It's as certain as death and taxes.
blanetalk, I also don't know if you've read any of the IDW Angel comics, but you probably want to look into at least the IDW Angel: After the Fall series and the last IDW Spike miniseries if you haven't already because those will give you some needed background on where various characters have been. Given Scott Allie's answers, more of the Angel IDW run might come into play later on in Angel's series depending on some of the characters Joss brings back.
I don't like the title "Angel and Faith". It disturbs me. As Kaan said it is a slap in the face of all Angel's fans. So, after having misused him in s8, they put him as a co-star in his own series?! Thank you very much. Least but not less an important character of AtS - Fred/Illyria will join BtVS and leave AtS...as if this series hadn't lost so many things: people (Cordelia, Wesley), location (Los Angeles), the sense of family, a real bond...and NOW its title AND unique titular character AND Fred/Illyria. Great.
I think the problem, Aradia, is that people are thinking of these things as shows or "series" still. They're comic books now, and comic books operate differently from TV shows/seasons.

Try not to look at it like that. Just read for the characters and the stories. I'd also like to stress that comic book titles can change even during a particular book's run (X-Men vol. 2, New X-Men, Astonishing X-Men, X-Men: Legacy; they're all the same thing). Yes, the title is "Angel and Faith," but why does that disturb you? You really think Angel being a co-star is going to give him less of the limelight? He was a co-star in three seasons of Buffy and he was still pretty damn important. And it's about time Faith got a book of her own, and her sharing it with Angel makes it even better, because these two characters work great together; go watch Angel season 1 and the Faith trilogy in Angel season 4 for proof of that.

You're saying that Angel was misused in S8, and that this is a slap in the face...but Faith got, what, six issues dedicated to her? Angel had 44. She practically disappeared into the background when she and Giles rejoined the Scoobies in S8. Her co-starring with Angel is a good idea and I have a good feeling about it.

I'd like to stress that I am indeed a fan of "Angel" (as a character and as a TV show/comic book) and it doesn't feel like a slap in the face to me. Someone above said it better than I could, but Angel is really broken right now. I don't think he could handle a series of his own, unless you wanna read 25 issues of Angel talking to himself and being sad about killing Giles/bringing Twilight. Faith is a necessary element. The title's fine.

As for Illyria, Joss just said he has plans for her. Not that she's explicitly going to join BtVS. But why is that bad if she would? If anything, it could lead to Willow/Illyria interaction, which I think would be fabulous and amazing. I've always wanted the Angel characters to meet the Scoobies. You keep looking at it as a series losing things instead of looking at it as one universe containing all of these different characters. Maybe joining the Buffy cast, if that's what's gonna happen to Illyria, will be better FOR ILLYRIA.

I also don't think people should assume they "don't have" to read the post-After the Fall "Angel" comics. Since they're considered canon by now, I think it's important to see where these characters have all been, even though it won't necessarily be directly addressed later on.

Edit: Am I the only one who's seeing the religious implications behind "Angel and Faith"? Seems like forgiveness/mercy is gonna be a big part of this series.

[ edited by Waterkeeper511 on 2011-04-03 19:18 ]
@Waterkeeper511: I immediately saw the play on words when I saw the title.
Pretty sure this topic isn't approved of for regular discussion so I'll just have the one comment on it. With respect to Waterkeeper, not everyone has that opinion on the post-Angel After the Fall IDW comics. The "canon-ness" of that series is murky at best and basically should just be read if you want to see more of the characters. The actual quality of the series (outside of any perceived canonical issues) is supposed to be pretty good and it has a significant following, so if you want more Angel, you likely won't be disappointed.
Archon: according to Simon earlier in this discussion thread, it was stated that the post-After the Fall comics are considered to be canon at the Dark Horse panel; they just won't be explored or referenced in detail, at least not right now. At this point, it's not a matter of opinion anymore.

In the video of the panel itself, Scott Allie states that the Angel story ending now, as well as Spike's story, are both tailored to lead up to Buffy season 8. This is apparent if you've been keeping up with the latest issues. From what I gathered, they wouldn't need to lead up to S8 if they weren't canonical stories. But I guess we'll just wait and see based on what will actually be in the comics themselves.

If this topic isn't approved of for regular discussion then I apologize, but I think it's an important topic to consider. Like I've said before, I personally don't want to see Illyria in Buffy S9/Angel and Faith if they're going to ignore her recent developments in the "Haunted" mini-series. I don't think this will be the case, though.
From what I gathered, they wouldn't need to lead up to S8 if they weren't canonical stories.

Well, technically, when this decision was made once the license was moving from IDW to DH, it was mainly just a matter of courtesy worked out between the two publishers. At that point, no one said boo about canon; it was just a matter of making it smooth for people who were, in fact, reading the IDW runs.

That's obviously separate from what they're apparently saying now, so I only bring it up for the record.
Great post Waterkeeper511, I agree with those sentiments. It's hard to properly service every single character. Of course, Angel needs his own book, but Faith was long overdue for one. This is a nice compromise.

Much as I love all of the Buffy/Faith conflict, she has always seemed like a perfect fit in Angel's neck of the Buffyverse woods. She's a darker character than the scoobies. Dark characters flourish in Angel stories. I think her most transformative moments as a character were in Angel seasons 1 and 4. Angel has always been a catalyst for her growth as a character. He pretty much saved her soul in season 1 and he inadvertantly got her back in the game in season 4. I hope some of the moments between her and Angel in this new book can match the poignancy of her scenes with Angel in Angel season 1, which proved to me by the way that Eliza CAN act. And yeah, I didn't catch the religious connotation of the title, but I have actually always like that about those two chaters. I have two cats that I named Faith and Angel and I like how some people get the Buffy reference while others think I named them that for religious reasons. I'm not actually a religious person, but I do believe in angels and in the power of faith, though not necessarily faith in religion

About the canon thing, in retrospect, I feel like the whole canon issue was pretty much determined the moment the rights to the Angel character went over to IDW. I feel like they have done too much with the character for Joss and Darkhorse to just ignore it all. I'm pretty sure that would upset a certain portion of Joss's fans. I don't think everything that happened with Angel and company over at IDW was great, but a lot of it was. Like Buffy season 8 there was good and bad. I like a lot of things that IDW did though and overall feel that they handled Angel and company quite well.

I look forward to whatever Joss does with Illyria, but feel that IDW already did GREAT things with her. Am I the only one who has wondered how funny an Illyria and Groo series would be? Seriously, I would absolutely LOVE that.
@Arkham
I just can't imagine Joss has read the IDW comics though.
No, nothing is made final about any of Idw's work being canon. Scott in the Q&A also says that a certain scene(Spike in the future) from After the fall is not canon according to him.

@Blanetalk: It's very easy to figure this out. You only need to have read season 8 to follow season 9 Buffy, Angel and Faith.
That is what is gonna come out, two main canon series. Buffy which will run for 25 issues starting september. And 'Angel and Faith' which will also run for 25 issues starting August.
Inbetween as Jaymii put it there will be some one-shots but also some mini-series, most likely a Willow one.
What you definitely should not do is go buy all these Idw comics for the sake of canon. DH doesn't operate like that, they also know that money doesn't grow on trees. Buy them only if you want some extra stories but be prepared that it will be quite different from season 8(and for many as myself in a bad way).
I'm sure that if DH uses a storyline,character that originated from Idw's stories they will put in an appropriate flashback,summary as to not confuse the readers that didn't read Idw's comics.
Even Scott in the interview stated that he didn't read all of Idw's works.
Waterkeeper511, OK I don't know how comic books operate and maybe I misunderstood, but I think that, well, if the title doesn't matter, why not "BtVS and..." . I feel everything is unfair, maybe I'm overreacting, maybe it's just me... But just think that: Joss put Angel in this mess of s8 broking his character in the process, and now he's not only under the banner of BtVS s9,but has to share the title with Faith?

I like Faith, I really do, but this is not the point. I feel they try to diminish him, take away from him too many things (did anyone else notice Buffy in s8 acted like him at the beginning and at the end of AtS? Her movement in the coffee is so similar of Angel's in City of; and her words are exactly "Let's go to work", as Angel said in the very last scene of Not Fade Away) and everything just happened after having destroyed him in the previous issues...

No, I don't like this. Not at all.
Arkham: Totally agreed. Also, I would love a Groo/Illyria mini-series. Groolyria!

Vergil: We're talking about the canonicity (canon-ness?) of the post-After the Fall comics. I think it's generally agreed that the 17 or so "After the Fall" comics are indeed canon, since Joss worked on them and stated that, when working on After the Fall, that he was doing the same thing he was doing with Buffy S8. The Spike mini-series, for example, is canon, since Lynch and Ryell collaborated with Allie for the purpose of making it fit into S8 (and I do think this was agreed upon from the beginning, not changed to fit into S8 after the comics started, as b!X pointed out earlier was the case for the Angel comics). These 8 issues are canon, and it mentions the Fall of Los Angeles without bringing in post-After the Fall characters. So yeah, we were discussing the post-After the Fall works.

Scott Allie did make that remark about Spike's timeslip not being canon to him, but it was in After the Fall, which *is* canon (or it was last time I checked). I saw his comment as that particular future no longer existing, since the future can always change, blah blah blah. Also, the fan asking the question interpreted that timeslip as Spike actually existing in that future, as opposed to merely experiencing a glitch in time, and Allie answered with that perspective/interpretation in mind.

I'll give you that exactly how they're canon is a bit murky, but I do maintain the opinion that the post-After the Fall works are canon now. I did say before I didn't think it was a matter of opinion, but you're right, it's not "final" yet. I mean regardless of what Scott Allie says, we're just gonna have to see what's in the comic and what's not. And you're right, no one should feel they have to buy all of the comics for the sake of canon. They did say they're not going to treat the post-After the Fall events in the story, just officially acknowledge that they happened.

Aradia: You're not overreacting; well, maybe a little bit, from my perspective, but it's not a bad thing. I can tell you really like the character of Angel, and for good cause.

Angel is "under the banner" of Buffy S9 only because that's where the story picks up: after the events of S8. From my perspective, Angel as a show was always "under the banner" of the "Buffyverse." Even if Angel wasn't said to be "under the banner" of S9, it would still continue from that point, since these events happened to Angel. That's all it means. From what I can tell, we're not sure if the title is going to be "BtVS S9: Angel and Faith," or just "Angel and Faith," because "under the banner" does not necessarily mean literally.

I do agree that Angel's character is broken now, but I'm eager to see how he's going to rise up again. Because he always does.

I hope you understand that Joss is not trying to diminish Angel's character. He wouldn't do something like that. I did notice the "Let's go to work" (and the coffee similarity is only dawning on me now), but I see those things as cute little references to Angel the TV series, not taking away from Angel as a character.

As for sharing the title with Faith, instead of diminishing Angel, I feel it's going to be the opposite. She'll enhance him.

Basically, it's a matter of perspective. You feel this is all taking away from Angel, while I feel that integrating him more fully in the Buffyverse is adding to him. It's just how we interpret it. We're gonna have to wait for the comics themselves and judge them for their content when they're released.
Canon is canon until there is a financial reason for it to not be canon.
Vergil: We're talking about the canonicity (canon-ness?) of the post-After the Fall comics. I think it's generally agreed that the 17 or so "After the Fall" comics are indeed canon, since Joss worked on them and stated that, when working on After the Fall, that he was doing the same thing he was doing with Buffy S8. The Spike mini-series, for example, is canon, since Lynch and Ryell collaborated with Allie for the purpose of making it fit into S8 (and I do think this was agreed upon from the beginning, not changed to fit into S8 after the comics started, as b!X pointed out earlier was the case for the Angel comics). These 8 issues are canon, and it mentions the Fall of Los Angeles without bringing in post-After the Fall characters. So yeah, we were discussing the post-After the Fall works.
Waterkeeper511, Joss did not say that he was doing the same for After the fall as he did for season 8, the opposite actually. He stated that he couldn't be as hands-on as he was with Buffy, thus he was co-plotting with Brian Lynch and that Lynch would mostly be doing the hard work.
Joss wrote most of s8, he didn't write any of After the fall. He co-plotted but that's not even close to being the same.
And After the fall by Joss was only 12 issues long, it was Lynch that changed it to 17 issues.
No, the Spike mini-series is not canon. It was an ongoing series that had nothing to do with s8, after it was announced that the license would go back to DH, DH and Joss did the super nice thing of allowing Idw to tell the bridge story of how Spike and Angel got from their playground to s8's. But Joss didn't write any of the Spike mini-series, he only made sure that Willow(appears in the second half of the series) was used correctly as she's one of his favorite characters. The dialogue,story doesn't resemble anything Joss would cook up, especially the first part of the series which i can't find anything likeable about. And no i don't need a story to be good to consider it canon but there are other certain aspects that need to be met for me to think of something canon and After the fall fails on several such points. Being a good,bad or terrible story doesn't matter. How the tale was created, by whome and the amount of input the original creator(Joss) puts in it matters to me. And i very much like Scott Allie, i think he's a great guy but let's not act as if he's the judge on what is canon and what isn't, his word does not dictate canon. Most of his pre-s8 Buffy and Angel comics from DH aren't canon either.
I'll give you that exactly how they're canon is a bit murky, but I do maintain the opinion that the post-After the Fall works are canon now. I did say before I didn't think it was a matter of opinion, but you're right, it's not "final" yet. I mean regardless of what Scott Allie says, we're just gonna have to see what's in the comic and what's not. And you're right, no one should feel they have to buy all of the comics for the sake of canon. They did say they're not going to treat the post-After the Fall events in the story, just officially acknowledge that they happened.

No, that would still only be your opinion, just as mine is not final. After the fall or any of Idw's works cannot be considerd canon merely by one's opinion.
Post-Atf has even less to stand on, i could give a dozen counter-arguements to Scott's words of it being canon but most of all, while Atf was co-plotted by Joss, post-Atf doesn't even have that. It has nothing, it is all Idw's stories.
And i stand by what i said, i'm certain that DH will never tell it's fans that they need to buy comics from a competing company to follow their comics, that is just plain bad business. If DH decides to bring characters from Idw's stories into their own like Beck,Betta or whatever then i'm certain they will inlcude a summary or flashback of the character as to not confuse the reader.
If a fan really wants to only buy canon comics then there are quite a lot that have a higher ranking then Atf in that regard. Tales of the slayers, Tales of the vampires, Fray just to name a few. These were all co-created,co-written(in Fray's case completely written by) Joss.

[ edited by Vergil on 2011-04-04 15:56 ]
If you're going to base canonicity on Joss' level of involvement, you may as well kiss Season Six goodbye - he wrote one episode in that and the season was run and executive produced by Marti. Joss wrote less than half of Season 8 (1-5, 10-11, 16-19, 31, 36-40 and Willow's one-shot: that's 18/43 issues) so claiming that S8 is canon only because Joss wrote most of it doesn't add up: it's canon because Joss was overseeing the whole project - the same thing he did for every episode of Buffy (Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse...) that he didn't write himself; and the same thing he did for After the Fall.

In 2007, while discussing Buffy Season Eight, Joss Whedon revealed his plans for a similar Angel continuation:

"In fact, I am talking to Brian Lynch who wrote Spike: Asylum about doing a sort of Season Six of Angel – a canon, post-Angel story. I was really impressed with Asylum. Brian really got the humor and the rhythms and told a story really well. I thought, “If they can do this, why shouldn’t they?"[5]

Brian Lynch also confirmed the canonicity of the series, stating:

"Yes, it certainly is [canon]. Everything that happens in these pages officially happens to these characters. It's pretty exciting and kind of daunting."


Everyone from Brian Lynch to Scott Allie says it's canon, but most importantly Joss says it's canon.

Really at this point I think any denial of After the Fall being official is just people believing what they want to believe.
I think the canonity argument has got ever so slightly out of hand so if we could back to discussing Buffy Season 9 and Angel and Faith that would be lovely.
Thanks, Matt. Those were the exact quotes I was thinking of. Joss said AtF is canon.

I don't think the argument (more like discussion) has gotten out of hand at all; nobody has called anyone names, for instance. But I can see how it's slightly off-topic here, so I'll back off.

Just to clarify (and not argue): I do want to say, Vergil, that I was agreeing with you about not needing to buy earlier Angel comics to possibly understand Angel and Faith in the event of IDW characters showing up. I don't know why you kept jumping back to that point when I had the same sentiments.

To get back to the comics themselves, I'm eagerly awaiting Aradia's response, and anyone else who feels similarly about Angel in his new shared title. I do sometimes feel like people forget that "Angel" takes place in the larger Buffyverse. I just can't fathom how anyone could think Joss would deliberately diminish one of his own characters.
Joss said AtF is canon.

I don't think the argument (more like discussion) has gotten out of hand at all; nobody has called anyone names, for instance. But I can see how it's slightly off-topic here, so I'll back off.

Just to clarify (and not argue): I do want to say, Vergil, that I was agreeing with you about not needing to buy earlier Angel comics to possibly understand Angel and Faith in the event of IDW characters showing up. I don't know why you kept jumping back to that point when I had the same sentiments.

That quote is 4 years old and we knew a lot more as time passed on. As was stated previously, the cracks in ATF-canon status started appearing long after that quote.
Nor can the shows be compared to the comics, they operate and work differently. Nor did i say that everything was to be written by Joss as a rule for it to be canon.

You're right, we didn't insult or disrespect one another or anyone else. But i think Simon just wants to play it safe and he does have a point in that we're not sticking to the topic at hand.

Well thank you and i am aware of that WK511, i wanted to make that point clear because while you are fan of the Idw comics and some others here are too, i didn't want an uninformed fan to waste money on buying those comics because he/she might be under the illusion that it was needed to be able to follow the canon DH comics.

Back to the topic at hand. I don't find the fear and anger some fans hold to be unexpected. Most people are fearful when change happens concerning their favorite characters. Joss's use of Angel was bound to upset some fans of his, wether it's the believe that the character deserves some extra-privlige on account of him having had his own show for 5 years or those that disliked the Angel character in the presence of Buffy.
I for one love that Joss treats his characters as equals, no one's life is more important then anyone else. There is no "the one". As for Angel, he's in the gutter, last time he didn't pull himself out, he always needed help getting back on his feet. And this time is no different, i can't think of better guide for Angel then Faith. And wether we like it or not, with Giles's death and decisions made and actions taken in s8 the verse has changed forever.
I think it's awesome that Joss can finally tell the story he wants to tell and who knows where these characters will end up.
What if Joss had left Angel mid-series as most creators do and Jeff Bell and David Fury were writing the series independent of Joss. Would we be questioning right now whether those episodes were canon or not? Well maybe if we disliked the episodes.

Edit. Sorry Simon, didn't see your post when I posted. At the moment I'm more interested in whats happening in Angel and Faith's book until I hear more details about Buffy's.

[ edited by eddy on 2011-04-04 18:41 ]
As I've said before, if people want to discuss the canonity of the comics then the easiest thing to do would be to get someone to write a good article looking at the both sides of the argument and then we could link to it. And that means everyone could discuss the issue at length without disrupting a normal comic book thread.

Anyhow back to our original programme. As for the Angel and Faith name, I'm still undecided on it. It's a bit ITV as Sally Sparrow would say. It will be interesting to see Joss and Dark Horse can recapture fans' attentions.
Waterkeeper wrote:
I just can't fathom how anyone could think Joss would deliberately diminish one of his own characters.

Well, I'm afraid there's an example and this is Cordelia. Big Bad in AtS s4, lover of Connor (after she acted like a mother for him), brutally dismissed at the end of that season, reappeared in just one episode of s5 (albeit wonderful) and sent away for ever. Rest in peace, Cordelia. While all the gang was mourning about Fred, Cordy was barely mentioned,like she was not the heart of the series. And this was Joss and his problem with CC. Don't tell me, please, that it wasn't Cordelia in s4... I know, but you can't play in this way:the much too delayed revelation that it wasn't her is just this, too late.
There's a beautiful essay in "Five Seasons of Angel" whose title is "The Assassination of Cordelia Chase". The author, Jennifer Crusie said, among other things that the first law of characterization is never violate the character's core identity (...)The choice between honoring character and mutilating character to serve plot spells the difference between the delighted reaction "I can' believe she/he did that!" and the betrayed protest "I don't believe she/he do that". For me it is exactly what happened for Cordelia years ago and for Angel now. So, yes, I'm pissed and afraid.

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