(SPOILER)
Scott Allie posts images from 'Angel & Faith'.
A bunch of preview images were posted in individual tweets. Not sure if they are going to permanently live on DH's site so that link points to his twitter for now. Anyway, check out the pics!
Direct links:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Image 4
Image 5
Image 6
Image 7
Image 8
June 15 2011
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Emmie | June 15, 13:03 CET
Buffyfantic | June 15, 13:05 CET
Simon | June 15, 13:06 CET
Also, I'm glad they'll be acknowledging that Angel's killed both Jenny and now Giles, but it will be a bit odd to hear about Jenny when the show didn't talk about her much and Giles had relations with other women after her (Olivia).
Arison | June 15, 13:09 CET
I love that we got a whole page of Giles/Jenny imagery, and that they're not holding back making his death echo what happened in S2. Angel's line that "Giles forgave him. And he paid the price" is just brutal. I am now 100% convinced that the red roses on Giles' coffin in #40 were a totally intentional reference to Passion. It's all very creepy and sad.
I can't wait for this.
vampmogs | June 15, 13:10 CET
Well you fanwank it away by saying it happened later on in Angel's timeline and something there pressed the reset button which had a cascading effect backwards. Or just go lalalala which I do on occassion.
Simon | June 15, 13:17 CET
Two options: I either accept the retcon (which I'm more than happy to) or I can think that Angel is so egotistical he just dismissed ~10,000,000 people by calling them "no one" (as if only his POV mattered).
So... retcon. Lalalala.
Emmie | June 15, 13:25 CET
anca | June 15, 13:33 CET
Jaymii | June 15, 13:42 CET
Brierly | June 15, 13:46 CET
Technically speaking, if everyone was supposed to have remembered Hell-A, but now it's just Angel, that's a retcon. However, it can become revelation instead if it was, say, everyone remembered originally but that memory faded over some period of time.
For me, if there's a way to get from Plot Point A to Contradictory Plot Point B in a way that makes sense, a retcon can work just fine. I mean, technically speaking the monks creating Dawn was a massive retcon within the narrative itself, but it had an explanation.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2011-06-15 22:53 ]
@theonetruebix | June 15, 13:51 CET
Simon | June 15, 14:02 CET
Brierly | June 15, 14:15 CET
So remembering Hell-A logically wouldn't have led to the popularity of vampires skyrocketing.
wenxina | June 15, 14:29 CET
[ edited by Emmie on 2011-06-15 23:39 ]
Emmie | June 15, 14:38 CET
Jelly | June 15, 14:39 CET
Arison | June 15, 14:46 CET
I'd imagine a more realistic depiction of the fallout of that revelation would have been more like how mutants are treated in the X-Men stories (X-Men First Class, for example). In other words, with apprehension, fear, more than likely some bigotry, and then the politicians would've started debating civil rights in order to win more votes by exploiting a hot button topic. :)
I guess what I'm saying is that the post-AtF stories just don't necessarily segue into the S8 storyline. People celebrating Angel. Sure. Then the craze about being sired by a vampire with a soul. Okay... questionable story development, but still tracks along the logical-ish. But the full-on adoration of all things vampire in S8... that makes absolutely zero sense to me.
[ edited by wenxina on 2011-06-15 23:51 ]
wenxina | June 15, 14:49 CET
Also, until I see otherwise, I choose to interpret it like this: in the later Angel comics, post-AtF, we see Angel as a celebrity figure...but lots of people start saying "Oh it wasn't real," or "It didn't really happen." Maybe Angel's just exaggerating this?
Waterkeeper511 | June 15, 14:53 CET
I wonder if we're really not going to see Gunn, Illyria and the rest of the cast. That will be super-sad :(
buffyfest | June 15, 15:04 CET
Arkham258 | June 15, 15:12 CET
I don't mind the retcon, It seems they're going to throw out some contradictions to the whole Lynch run just to show that it's not completely canon. I'm kinda happy with that.
Does that mean when Angel came through that portal he was coming back from L.A. when it went to hell?! Cause yay, something explained!
Nathan | June 15, 15:23 CET
GimpyD | June 15, 15:30 CET
Nathan | June 15, 15:46 CET
Art looks great-can't comment on the rest.
faith in Angel | June 15, 15:54 CET
I like these, very cool. Very close to the actors. It's good.
BlueSkies | June 15, 15:57 CET
Taaroko | June 15, 16:30 CET
Anyway, it just makes me happy to see her importance to Giles' and Angel's journeys acknowledged so overtly. (I loved the dynamic between Jenny and Giles, and am still sad that they had so little time together.)
erendis | June 15, 17:53 CET
Astonishing_Chaos | June 15, 18:35 CET
Brierly | June 15, 19:11 CET
No, that's not the case. That's a misinformed, oversimplified assumption.
Emmie | June 15, 20:07 CET
KingofCretins | June 15, 20:56 CET
I really like Faith's take that Angel wasn't lying to the girls' mother when he let her believe Giles' had sent them. It sets up the role those diaries are going to play this season.
Good stuff!
Maggie | June 15, 21:09 CET
I call it ambiguous because, Just cause Joss was partially credited with AtF it was fully admited that he had a few conversations with Brian Lynch and that was it. He really had hardly anything to do with it. I know at one stage it was pretty much believed to be canon, but I really don't think it is for the most part.
I think basically: LA went to hell. Angel defended it, there was Cordelia the dragon, Angel got back from hell and LA was restored. All the other details I'm deaming to be confirmed or denied. And the fact that apparently only Angel remembers is hopefully one of many details to help us really understand Joss' idea of what happened!
Nathan | June 15, 22:17 CET
Simon | June 15, 22:32 CET
Are you referring to the portal Angel came through in #36, cause that wasn't time travel.
Nathan | June 15, 22:35 CET
Simon | June 15, 22:43 CET
I'm just going off the fact that Scott Allie was very adament about how it was not time travel. I don't know, we'll see in August.
Nathan | June 15, 22:52 CET
archon | June 16, 00:13 CET
sueworld2003 | June 16, 00:53 CET
[ edited by Matt7325 on 2011-06-16 10:35 ]
Matt7325 | June 16, 01:24 CET
Moscow Watcher | June 16, 02:24 CET
In truth, I would have fully expected the non-Lynch IDW stuff to be ignored. Personal opinion only here, I didn't think that it was very good. More generally, I just couldn't see that Joss would have been happy to work with certain character personality changes made at IDW, most especially Illyria. I always felt that anything done with her post-AtF would be quickly forgotten. If that is what is going to happen then I won't complain too much.
No, what I don't like is that it now seems that even the supposedly Whedon plotted After the Fall (issues 1-17 specifically) is now also in question. Firstly, from a selfish viewpoint, because I very much enjoyed that run (Lynch rocks!) and secondly because it has been more than suggested, if not completely confirmed, to be canon. Which is why I bought the series in the first place! Admittedly, I made a choice to continue from issue 18, even knowing that its canon status was now likely to be an iffy situation (I'm a completist, what can I say?), but had I known from the start that the whole damn series might not be a true part of the story then I wouldn't have bothered at all. I buy the comics because they are supposedly a continuation of a television show I loved a great deal. Not because I want to read some alternate version of that fictional world. That's why I never bothered with the original Dark Horse Buffy run. I'm only interested in the true story.
I'd have been perfectly okay with Aftermath onwards being disregarded. To be honest, I'd be happier if it was! I only carried on buying the IDW series after AtF ended because I figured that there was a possibility that the continued involvement of Brian Lynch made the story 'potentially' canon at least, whether I liked the actual content or not. But to now have to possibly start assuming that even AtF is only partly accurate, according to the Dark Horse continuity? That, I do find annoying.
Like I said, I only became interested in the IDW Angel stuff once the word 'canon' was attached to it. Now I'm starting to feel like I might have been conned into buying something and caring about its developments under false pretences. That's not cool.
Rant almost over, but on a related note, assuming that what Angel said is true and he is the only one to recall whatever now did happen in Hell-A, then what was the point of having Bryan connect the continuity dots with his Spike series. Spike on the bug-infested spaceship was a direct continuation of the events of the post AtF IDW content, meaning that Spike, at the very least, would also remember Hell-A. Unless, of course, Spike became leader of the bug people in a completely different way in Dark Horse continuity now? Like I said, MESS!
The Arcane | June 16, 03:28 CET
Simon | June 16, 03:35 CET
Dana5140 | June 16, 03:50 CET
The Arcane | June 16, 03:52 CET
Simon | June 16, 03:54 CET
eddy | June 16, 05:21 CET
KingofCretins | June 16, 05:37 CET
I ask because this might go a long way toward explaining continuity. If Angel and Spike came out of their respective portals into the Dark Horse continuity, as shown in the flashbacks, they must have both been in different timelines, or both in the same timeline but not traveling together. If Angel was never shown to be leaving the dimension, that could mean that IDW is the alternate universe in which he failed to save the world; it's just something that happens after that series ends. Then there's the flashback with the portal shown in Last Gleaming, and then he becomes Twilight.
That way there's no time travel; the fall of the world could have happened concurrently with the time between AtS5 and S8, and Angel (& Spike) got yanked out of the fallen world and into Buffy's reality. Admittedly, it's a bit of a squeeze, but chronology has always been a little willy-nilly in the comics.
Kairos | June 16, 05:49 CET
It's like the original Buffy comics and novels that took place between episodes or between seasons: if they don't contradict anything and they tell a good story that "fills in the blanks", you can consider them your personal canon. If you hate them, they aren't canon. The main series will never refer to them so neither position can actually be proven correct or incorrect.
So the way I see it, Angel's last canonical appearance pre-Season 8 is the last page of After the Fall #17, and his next canonical appearance is in Buffy Season 8 #1 a few months later (where Twilight's hovering over the castle).
Brierly | June 16, 06:03 CET
KingofCretins | June 16, 06:07 CET
The bugs come from another dimension, Spike in in Las Vegas at the time and joins up with them, then they return to said dimension. So Spike's timeline is essentially Buffy Season 7, Angel Season 5, After the Fall, (debatedly the rest of IDW's run), Spike's miniseries, then Last Gleaming.
As for Angel I'm not certain which dimension you mean... if you're referring to AtF-Hell he returned in #17, if you're referring to the future dimension he visited in IDW's last arc he returned in the final issue. How the dimension Angel escaped from in Buffy #36 ties into this is anyone's guess.
@KingofCretins: Which novel was that? I am intrigued.
Matt7325 | June 16, 06:13 CET
KingofCretins | June 16, 06:16 CET
Spike met the bugs and was given command of the ship in the final issue. At the end he had decided to go dimension hopping in search of the now on-the-run Senior Partners, in order to dish out a little vengeance/justice. As such, his return to this reality in the Buffy Season 8 flashback fits in nicely.
The end of Angel's IDW story, however? Less easy to connect to the Dark Horse material.
The Arcane | June 16, 06:16 CET
The Arcane | June 16, 06:18 CET
@KoC: I think that was "Pretty Maids All In A Row", the Spike/Drusilla novel. It kind of stood out from many of the other Buffy novels because it was one of the ones that was actually worth reading.
Matt7325 | June 16, 06:27 CET
"Regarding canon, just look at it this way: After the Fall (issues 1-17) are absolutely canon..."
See, that's my whole issue now though. If it was going to be exactly how you suggested, then I'd be okay with that. In fact, that is how I already understood it would likely be. My problem is that now it appears that not all the events you saw happen in AtF 1-17 are definitely going to be canon. That the whole run might only be a rough representation of what actually happened, rather than the true version of events as recalled by Angel.
Like I said to Simon, I hope I'm presuming too much and that this is simply one inaccurate line of Angel dialogue, rather than the first example of AtF canon reinvention. We shall see.
@KingofCretins,
Do you mean 'Pretty Maids All In A Row', the Spike/Dru novel?
@Matt7325,
Don't think it's you that's in error regarding spoilers, mate. Just me being overly cautious. :)
EDIT: Random apostrophe cull.
[ edited by RockPagan on 2011-06-16 15:42 ]
The Arcane | June 16, 06:36 CET
wenxina | June 16, 06:40 CET
Joss meets Brian Lynch face to face once to discuss the Angel comic (the famous 'breakfast meeting'.)
Joss meets Christos Gage face to face once to discuss the Angel comic (the writers summit.)
Joss doesn't have time to write Angel himself but decrees Lynch the writer.
Joss doesn't have time to write A&F himself but decrees Gage the writer.
Joss lays out a story and exchanges emails with Lynch about story, dialogue etc
Joss lays out a story and exchanges emails with Gage about story, dialogue etc
Angel:AtF is 'dubious canon'
Angel & Faith is 'true canon'
HUH?
faith in Angel | June 16, 06:46 CET
vampmogs | June 16, 06:47 CET
It's the very simple truth of the matter, even if it is a bit hard to swallow. I'm sure the Dark Horse canon will seem more real to people anyway because of the Joss constant, as opposed to the initial meeting only with brian lynch. That is certainly not IDW's fault, it just is what it is.
DeathIsYourGift | June 16, 07:30 CET
When Garth Ennis' 'The Boys' moved publisher after 6 issues the story didn't change.
So why now?
faith in Angel | June 16, 07:55 CET
To be honest, right now I just want Joss Whedon canon! I'll happily disregard any part of the story so far, whether I personally like it or not, if Joss would just go on record as saying what is and what isn't actual canon Buffy/Angelverse continuity. As far as I'm concerned, that is the only real source of canon anyway.
It's not a case of me wanting the canon to fit my own personal preference of the story. If Joss was to say that we should disregard everything that happened in AtF, even the previously thought canon material, then so be it. On the other hand, if Joss was to say that every detail from Aftermath onwards was to be considered canon, even the stuff I personally cannot stand, then that's fine too! It's just that I honestly want to know what part of the story and character development I've read up until now actually matters, you know? Right now, I have absolutely no idea.
The Arcane | June 16, 08:27 CET
Invisible Green | June 16, 08:31 CET
I don't know...I feel now that people are just nitpicking. If we now have reference to Angel being in hell, riding a dragon etc then why not take AtF as canon? Why this fight by some people to have it discredited?
faith in Angel | June 16, 08:42 CET
Although I kind of love the proposed fanwank above that the post-ATF IDW run was in essence an alternaworld. It makes Angel's portal in Buffy S8 kind of niftily meta -- he was portalling in from IDW.
[ edited by The One True b!X on 2011-06-16 18:02 ]
@theonetruebix | June 16, 09:01 CET
And anyway, Christos Gage has posted a string of tweets regarding the memory issue. You can read his Tweet stream HERE.
wenxina | June 16, 09:06 CET
@theonetruebix | June 16, 09:10 CET
Jelly | June 16, 09:18 CET
Jaymii | June 16, 09:20 CET
The Arcane | June 16, 09:24 CET
It's not necessary a good thing, see entitlement.
Simon | June 16, 09:26 CET
Jelly | June 16, 09:32 CET
@theonetruebix | June 16, 09:34 CET
Buffyfantic | June 16, 09:40 CET
faith in Angel | June 16, 09:44 CET
Brierly | June 16, 09:46 CET
Something that always annoys me about any given fandom is when an individual thinks that his or her own preferences matter more than those of the creator(s) of the story. That's where the whole idea of 'personal canon' seems to have sprung from, a concept that I just find kinda silly.
Like I said above, I simply want to know the official-Joss-sanctioned-accept-no-substitutes canon, whatever that may be. I don't want to write the story, I just want to know what it really is.
@b!X,
Dammit! ;)
The Arcane | June 16, 09:49 CET
In superhero comics, stuff like this happens all the time. Characters have their memories wiped but the stories still happened, they just don't remember it. For example, DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths was wiped from everyone's minds until 2005's The Return of Donna Troy/Infinite Crisis. Even though 20 years passed in between, it "still happened" and eventually ended up "counting".
Brierly | June 16, 09:49 CET
After the Fall has Joss' name on it. It's canon. Buffy Seasons 8 and 9 have Joss' name on it. It's canon. People not remembering Hell-A doesn't "de-canonize" After the Fall. Think of Superboy-Prime's wall punches that created continuity anomalies in the DC Universe. In the final issue of After the Fall, everyone remembers LA. But sometime after that point, their memories were erased. Now only Angel remembers that they remembered and treated him like a celebrity. Those people actually did remember Hell-A, but their memories were replaced by mystical memories.
Look at it this way: Buffy Seasons 1-4 are canon. The way we saw it is how it actually happened. But the characters have mystical memories of Dawn being there. The fake memories of Dawn being there are just that---FAKE. She wasn't really there in the original episodes we saw. So After the Fall happened as presented in #1-17 but after the fact many citizens of LA ended up with mystical replacement memories.
I hope this makes sense.
Brierly | June 16, 09:55 CET
Not saying they shouldn't be able to write the story they want...but if the story contradicts itself or gets pre-established facts wrong, then they should be alerted.
faith in Angel | June 16, 10:09 CET
I can decide what I want to acknowledge should I choose to do so, absolutely. But that's not going to change canon. We don't decide that. In this case, only Joss does.
See, up until the IDW Angel comics began we knew exactly what canon was. The events of the two television series and Buffy Season 8. Nothing else. Now we have a situtaion where we have a comic series that partly is and partly isn't. We're currently supposed to assume that AtF 1-17 (and Spike: AtF 1-4) is canon (a fact that I'm more than happy to go with) but everything else is in some weird could-be-but-might-well-not-be pseudo-canon that we can acknowledge or not, depending on if we want to or not. That, to me, is not what canon is about. I don't decide that based on what I want to have happened. Joss decides based on what he decides really happened. As such, without a true Joss stamp of approval, there ain't no canon to be had. For me, at least.
The Arcane | June 16, 10:13 CET
Simon | June 16, 10:25 CET
Which, yay.
patxshand | June 16, 11:08 CET
Brierly | June 16, 11:16 CET
patxshand | June 16, 11:19 CET
KingofCretins | June 16, 11:25 CET
Brierly | June 16, 11:26 CET
patxshand | June 16, 11:29 CET
archon | June 16, 11:50 CET
Because a commitment to a belief needs to have something behind it and I don't feel that here. How can AtF be canon, and now not with something else to replace it. I take art I partake of very seriously and now it just feels like being jerked around. You just lose sight of what something was supposed to be because now there is no clear through line, but something completely different.
Tonya J | June 16, 11:54 CET
I wonder if it ties in with magic leaving the Buffyverse. Course does that mean that everyone remembers Connor now?
Simon | June 16, 13:06 CET
@theonetruebix | June 16, 13:13 CET
redeem147 | June 16, 13:15 CET
I think that can be explained more as a matter of perspective in accordance with the shows' respective protagonists.
marvelknight616 | June 16, 13:40 CET
Brierly | June 16, 13:43 CET
Jaymii | June 16, 13:50 CET
That's pretty much where we're at with the IDW books, definitely post-"After the Fall", and even "After the Fall". Look... we've already had one glaring inconsistency that the writer has been kind enough to fudge, but it's probably not going to be the last. Those won't be plot errors, they will simply be plot corrections. Nothing that happened over at IDW was ever more than an outline for a season that never got made. Fleshed out into a different outline for someone else, as for Joss' involvement. He was a name brand on the cover. I think it's a great kindness and courtesy that he is choosing to shape the no-doubt canon around those stories as much as suit him.
KingofCretins | June 16, 13:54 CET
Angel the Series never had more than 5 or 6 series regulars at a time so I think the comics can handle Angel, Faith, Connor and Gunn.
Brierly | June 16, 14:08 CET
Brierly | June 16, 14:09 CET
Nope, not at all. I don't understand this viewpoint one bit.
patxshand | June 16, 14:10 CET
Jaymii | June 16, 14:10 CET
Assuming Gage's 'fading memories of all non-supernatural characters' explanation can be taken as fact (which as far as I'm concerned it can, given that Joss made him Head Angel Writer Guy) then that issue goes away. We didn't have that info originally though, leading to the whole canon uncertainty debate.
So I don't think anyone was actually mistaking retcon for canon, as was suggested above. I, for one, was genuinely worried that we were about to see the events of AtF become non-canon, or at the very least yet more questionable canon, rather than retconned. I'm fine with a workable retcon though. As long as the story still works and the details of AtF remain unaltered, it's all good!
The Arcane | June 16, 14:12 CET
Brierly | June 16, 14:17 CET
Simon | June 16, 14:21 CET
Side-characters, if they have a necessary story, should have dedicated one-shots, I think.
Jaymii | June 16, 14:25 CET
Brierly | June 16, 14:25 CET
Neither one of them is sustained by magic. Both had their existence either created or altered by magical means, but neither depend on it currently. Dawn, Connor and all the false memories that surround them are real now, regardless of how they happened to come about. Their existence is not dependent on continued exposure to magic. If that was actually the case then surely every other spell cast in the history of the world would have to come undone as well, when the magic went away.
As for the rest of the Angel cast, I'm sure they'll be used sooner or later. We know there are plans for Spike and Illyria (although admittedly with the two of them now over in Buffy's series) and so that really only leaves Gunn to miss. Hopefully it won't be too long until he makes his return too.
The Arcane | June 16, 14:31 CET
Of course it would. Canon is an objective status, there is no subjective component, ergo mine, and my billion-wide audience's votes, don't count. Only one votes count, and that's Joss'. If something is referenced in a work that he is directly overseeing, it is of more substance than that which he merely permitted -- or, in the case of FOX licensed products, permitted second hand.
KingofCretins | June 16, 15:39 CET
Dana5140 | June 16, 17:25 CET
KingofCretins | June 16, 17:38 CET
Where possible, they'll smooth it out, as with the fading memories. Those flashforwards in AtF will now be possible futures. etc.
But the bottom line remains that AtF is at the mercy of what works for the story Joss wants to tell. Gage just tweeted that. Material supervised by Joss is totally going to trump an outline handed off to some other guy. And that's as it should be.
Maggie | June 16, 17:49 CET
KingofCretins | June 16, 17:55 CET
Let's put it this way. I'm currently attempting to write a series of books based on characters that I've created. As such, I get to decide the canon. No one else. Just me.
Should the books ever get published (and given the amount of time that I've actually had to write anything recently, that's far from certain) anyone who chooses to read the story is free to pick which parts of the story they wish to accept and which parts they wish to ignore. They are also free to create their own stories based upon my characters. None of that, however, will decide what's canon. That's all mine. Just as Joss is the only one who gets to decide what's canon within the Buffyverse. As a fan you don't get to pick and choose canon. You only get to choose which parts of it you like.
The Arcane | June 16, 18:03 CET
Brierly | June 16, 18:18 CET
Brierly | June 16, 18:39 CET
As much as I love After the Fall and the Spike series, the Armstrong and Willingham runs were awful to me, therefore, not canon. They just don't fit. Fortunately I didn't buy them and don't need to throw them in the trash.
Xane | June 16, 19:48 CET
Personally I found AtF more enjoyable then anything Whedon has come out with so far. Shame really as I was hoping for so much better from him.
sueworld2003 | June 17, 01:21 CET
faith in Angel | June 17, 01:26 CET
"None of it is real, so what does it matter whether some is less real?"
Well, I can only speak for myself here but I guess it comes down to just wanting to know for certain, one way or another. I want to know what actually happened to a given character, rather than what might have, if you see what I mean? That matters to me.
It's like my CD collection. I'm a big music fan and I'll buy every official release from my favourite bands but I have no interest in owning unofficially released material, such as cheap greatest hits collections or bootlegs (apart from the ones sanctioned by the bands, obviously). For me, it matters that my music collection is as the band intended. As such, I like to be aware of what is official material, as far as they are concerned, and what is not.
Same goes for my love of fiction. I have no problem with non-canon material, as such. Like I said, I've read all of the later IDW Angel stuff, even knowing that it was unlikely to stick. I've enjoyed many excellent tv related novels (Star Trek, X-Files, Doctor Who, etc) that are most certainly not canon and never will be.
I'm even fine with enjoying two or more entirely separate versions of canon for one property. Whether that be two versions on television, such as the original and updated versions of Battlestar Galactica, or one version in novel form and the television adaption (Dexter, True Blood and so on).
So it's not about only being able to enjoy canon material, so much. I just like to know for a fact what actually is canon. Just so that I know, y'know?
The Arcane | June 17, 02:01 CET
archon | June 17, 02:18 CET
QingTing | June 17, 03:20 CET
Simon | June 17, 03:22 CET
The Arcane | June 17, 03:28 CET
Jaymii | June 17, 04:52 CET
The Arcane | June 17, 05:38 CET
If Joss decanonized Season 2 (and this is not a novel idea in television; "Dallas", "Roseanne", "Married... with Children", etc), throwing out the DVDs would be your choice. Throwing out your expectations that he adhere to the content he just voided would be a given, though, and that's what we're talking about.
It would be suitably amusing if Joss ever doing anything that decanonized "After the Fall" since "After the Fall" is itself a reset story. Well, mostly. It's got the same sort of dilemma I found in "Inception", namely... if your big adventure, peril, daring, gallantry, cleverness, etc. are happening in a dream, did you really "do" them?
KingofCretins | June 17, 07:05 CET
Anyway, for me at least, the canon issue and the quality issue are not really intersecting. Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead is obviously not Hamlet-canon, but it doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile in its own right, or that it isn't a work in and of itself.
WilliamTheB | June 17, 07:20 CET
With "Buffy", there has never been any sharing of the story stick in terms of getting to decide what "counts" as the story.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2011-06-17 16:39 ]
KingofCretins | June 17, 07:39 CET
AtF wasn't a reset story. Everything in Hell-A happened. It's just that W&H brought everyone back to the point where they had originally taken them from.
faith in Angel | June 17, 07:57 CET
KingofCretins | June 17, 08:24 CET
Jaymii | June 17, 08:34 CET
Brierly | June 17, 08:37 CET
Is it? It's more like Angel's time in Hell at the end of Season 2. He was there for 'a hundred years'...yet on Earth time it was only a few months.
Same here. They were in this particular Hell dimension for a few months. But on Earth time it was an instant.
Angel suffered torture for 100 years. Connor lived in Quartoth for 16 years. LA was in Hell for a few months. All those things happened. Just that time moved differently than here on Earth.
faith in Angel | June 17, 09:04 CET
KingofCretins | June 17, 09:15 CET
- Joss Whedon.
patxshand | June 22, 05:27 CET