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July 10 2011

Best TV Show Competition. Buffy is up against Game of Thrones in a Spoiler TV Competition. Another round which features Angel vs Bones and Firefly vs How I Met Your Mother can be found here.

glad buffy is winning.

i do like game of thrones, but i am often watching it tearing my hair out because they seem more concerned with doing a faithful line-for-line adaptation than thinking about how to structure and re-arrange scenes in order to fit with more symbolic and thematic episodic television.
Heh, heh! Bless your heart, aapac, I'm a little torn too. But, I must wonder, what if Buffy had dragons too?
Voted Buffy!
Don't forget that Firefly is also in the tournament.
And don't forget to vote for Veronica either! She's currently behind Fringe which hurts my fan heart. Really an excellent show, one of the best.

Voted Veronica Mars and Buffy. Agree about Game of Thrones. I love the books and quite like seeing my favorite scenes brought to live but there definately are some problems with structure (and also with the 'translation' of thought into dialogue). Though the episode by Martin himself didn't seem to suffer from any these problems. Hope the new book (out of Tuesday!) will be just as good as his episode.
I love Game of Thrones, but Buffy was an easy choice. Choosing between Fringe and Veronica Mars was heartbreaking. The shows are too different to be easily compared. I voted for Veronica, because I suspected she'd need the votes, since it has been years since it aired... And now I have a sudden urge to watch VM again.
You should give into that urge if you have the time, Valentyn. I just happened to rewatch VM's pilot and episode 2 this week and they hold up incredibly well.
"...But i am often watching it tearing my hair out because they seem more concerned with doing a faithful line-for-line adaptation than thinking about how to structure and re-arrange scenes in order to fit with more symbolic and thematic episodic television."

I can't disagree more. I've never read the GoT books and I think the series is one of the best series that has ever aired. Right now It's sharing the #1 spot with BREAKING BAD as the best show on television (and both are battling with Buffy in my head for the "best ever" spot). It's tough to choose because I think the best of Buffy is just as good as the best of GoT, but Buffy has SO many episodes that are weak because it was a network show and therefore needed stand alones. Re-watching as made me realize that. However, I think the season long structure of Buffy made it a much better show than shows like TRUE BLOOD which can't wrap up a storyline to save it's life. So there are some aspects of network TV that I like. It's really a toss up for me...
Mmmm... that's not quite how I meant what I was saying. What I mean was that GoT doesn't think visually... it still thinks in lines of dialogue, in book speak, and I don't think it's translated very well.

There's so many instances in which you have these parallel storylines that fit together so beautifully and they just don't juxtapose them at all - like Ned first coming to King's Landing and Jon first arriving at the Wall, for instance - there were two thematically connected storylines and they just hung separate because they were following the novel too closely. it just hasn't really gone through a process of adaptation for television.

The only time when I feel the show was successfully visual was in that scene in which Ned watches Arya learn to fight with her new swordmaster... they were able to communicate this feeling of danger and fear of what's to come, and that helped to sum up what the episode was exploring as a whole... but these things are pretty few and far between.
Easy choice for me, VM and Buffy. I would love to see the final Buffy vs The Vampire Diaries, now that would be cruel to me. lol My first vampire love, Spike vs current, Damon.
Loved that video that went along with the BtVS entry. And seems like a no-brainer to pick the show that had a fulfilling seven seasons versus one short season so far.
I love GOT, but picking Buffy was a no-brainer for me, too. VM got my vote too, of course.
First season GoT versus first season of Buffy might get a different result... but taken whole for currently-existing whole, BtVS for the win. Plus it seems to have a much more positive message...

I voted accordingly and gave Veronica my vote too, but she's still behind. (I do like that VM sometimes gets a sort of kid-sister version of the Whedonesque effect from us.)
On another note, the second season of Game of Thrones will apparently be subtitled after the second book, Clash of Kings. Someone didn't bother to do an acronym check before they went with that decision.
I guess I'm a bit higher on GoT than most here. I found it completely engrossing nearly every minute and was astonished at the completeness of its vision. It is much better acted than BUFFY, though I think BUFFY a greater show. Peter Dinklage was amazing and I loved Sean Bean. The blonde actress whose name I can't recall at the moment, the almost complete newcomer, was really superb. It might be my favorite show on TV at the moment.

Is VAMPIRE DIARIES really still in the running? The popularity of that show baffled me. I recently tried to watch it and quit after the first 8 episodes of Season One. I would describe it as a bad show, but I should add that I also rank SUPERNATURAL as below average. I've been baffled by its popularity.

I voted for Veronica Mars over Fringe, though I love both shows.
Oh wow, they used my video to go with Buffy, how cool !

And I really enjoyed "Game of Thrones", but you can't compare it to Buffy, mainly because it's only beginning, and my love for Buffy is just too strong.
Love GoT, but too early to compare. As pointed out above an S1 to S1 comparison may have been way different. Chose VM over Fringe without a second thought.
It's hard to compare an awesome finished product with one that is just getting started. GoT is my favorite show this year, but aapac has made a very interesting point that I can get behind unfortunately. Voted for Buffy, still love Game of Thrones. If this was BtVS S1 vs GoT S1, it'd be a different story though.
Ok I appreciate that the comments section of this site gets involved in healthy debate about other shows when someone posts about these polls, but...

This is the most annoying thing we do. Someone posts about a silly poll that happens to list a Mutant Enemy member's show, and we essentially Buffybomb a site. The io9 thing was inexcusable. Yes, some people on here might think Serenity is better than Blade Runner or 2001, but in the readership of a varied sci-fi/fantasy website's poll, there's no way Serenity would actually make it that high without most of another site with bias towards it running there and stomping on the buttons.

It destroys the fun of such polls. The point is to see what io9'ers think. Imagine if all of io9 or a JJ Abrams fan site came here and commented on everything we did. It would RUIN this site, because they don't belong here and if we had polls it would skew results.

We have to remember we are the most unified and organized fandom online. Our lower numbers allow us to communicate more efficiently than Star Wars or Star Trek, and the nature of our shows means we tend to get along better. But we're also more plentiful than a lot of the other fandoms, because of just how many things Joss has done that each have their own group that overlap with one another. Each has lived on the fringe of geekdom so long that we don't realize we actually have any numbers, and yet we've displayed an awful lot of power. For all the shows that want to do movies to finish them off -- Veronica Mars and Arrested Development to name a couple -- we're the only ones who did. That seems to have made us a little power mad, though -- we start trying to do stuff like buy the rights to the shows ourselves to make more episodes, which is not something we have the right to do. Yet still, understandably enthusiastic.

This type of stuff -- the little stuff like smashing a poll so River defeats every other badass in history -- just makes us villains, though. We become the Alliance, getting in other people's way of being fans of different stuff. It makes people not want to invite us, which in this case means NEVER LISTING Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Serenity, Dr. Horrible or Dollhouse in any best of lists, and not including any characters in the vs. polls. I'd rather go back to being the ones with the most social skills at the party. Wouldn't you?

I just don't think polls are something that should count as newsworthy enough to be posted. All they've done is fuel a backlash, even from our own members.
Besides, how much can we trust a poll in which Breaking Bad and Community go out in the first round? I mean, honestly!
While PuppetDoug makes some excellent points, I'm going to avoid that discussion and just say that I seem to be the only person posting in this thread that feels Fringe is way better than Veronica Mars. I've watched the entire run of both shows (well, so far for Fringe), and Fringe grabs me on an emotional level in a way that VM never did, much as liked the show that Whedon and several Whedon alums cheered on. (To be fair, I don't know how strongly I'd feel about Fringe if not for the consistently stunning acting job of John Noble.)
This is the most annoying thing we do. Someone posts about a silly poll that happens to list a Mutant Enemy member's show, and we essentially Buffybomb a site.

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but when one of these kinds of links appears I actually like to go and make my own decision about who to vote for rather than "blindly vote X" and I'm pretty sure that that's the majority view here.

The io9 thing was inexcusable. Yes, some people on here might think Serenity is better than Blade Runner or 2001, but in the readership of a varied sci-fi/fantasy website's poll, there's no way Serenity would actually make it that high without most of another site with bias towards it running there and stomping on the buttons.

Unless, of course, most of the readership of a varied sci-fi/fantasy website does indeed think that...

It destroys the fun of such polls. The point is to see what io9'ers think.

io9 is an open readership, varied sci-fi/fantasy website - ie. anyone who reads it (regardless of why) is technically an io9'er and so falls under your specified purview.

Imagine if all of io9 or a JJ Abrams fan site came here and commented on everything we did. It would RUIN this site, because they don't belong here and if we had polls it would skew results.

Whedon fans belong on Whedon sites. Abrams fans belong on Abrams sites. They all belong on general interest sites like io9 especially when something touching their area of interest comes up. That's the whole point of a general interest site like io9 - to see what happens when you jumble it all together.

This type of stuff -- the little stuff like smashing a poll so River defeats every other badass in history -- just makes us villains, though. We become the Alliance, getting in other people's way of being fans of different stuff.

A. You can't control what other people like or dislike. It's impossible.
B. You do realize that this stuff really isn't that important...

Unless, of course, most of the readership of a varied sci-fi/fantasy website does indeed think that...


brinderwalt, the HNBF Facebook page actively campaigned for Serenity during each round of the io9 competition. They are the guys who won it for Serenity. The io9 readership didn't really a look in. Had they not campaigned, I think it would be have been a different story. It would have probably have been a similar story to the Total Film poll results where Serenity came 44th out of 50.


A. You can't control what other people like or dislike. It's impossible.


If fans think it will help bring back Firefly, then they will vote for it in droves.

B. You do realize that this stuff really isn't that important...


You do know about the backlash that the active campaigning has caused over the years, don't you? It's not pleasant.
True. Yet, I do have a soft place for blondes and dragons. It's my weakness.
What I mean was that GoT doesn't think visually...


Wow, couldn't disagree more. The TV series is absolutely visually striking. The final moments of episode nine flashing between Ned, Arya, and the pigeons, for example, or the episode previous which ends with Sansa kneeling in front of the Iron Throne and the camera disappearing behind the black gives the impression that Sansa's being swallowed whole.

So... yeah, couldn't disagree more. This series has an incredible sense for visual storytelling.

[ edited by Emmie on 2011-07-11 01:18 ]
Whoa! Think I actually caught a hint of Simon smiling there. Wait, he might do it again.....there it is!
First, Nico-Angel, you're video is awesome!
Not to sound like a man hater (I do loves the mens) but the strong chick shows get my vote. GoT is a good show but with being too gratuitous with the boobies makes me lose interest.
brinderwalt, the HNBF Facebook page actively campaigned for Serenity during each round of the io9 competition. They are the guys who won it for Serenity. The io9 readership didn't really a look in. Had they not campaigned, I think it would be have been a different story. It would have probably have been a similar story to the Total Film poll results where Serenity came 44th out of 50.

Such is the disadvantage of open forum polling - it's open to the influence of outside forces (for good or bad.) There are always going to be fan voting fads roving the web like sharks waiting for a taste of blood, and it's up to the potential poll-runners out there to pick a poll format (along with its incumbent flaws) and live with the consequences.

You do know about the backlash that the active campaigning has caused over the years, don't you? It's not pleasant.

Yes. It's one of the reasons why I'm not a big fan of active campaigning*. Of course, I'm also not a fan of trying to limit peoples' rights to fritter away their hard-earned free time on whatever pointless, ill-conceived activities happen to catch their fancy...


* Unless it isn't taken too seriously, in which case I'm all for it.
Hmm, two liked minds. Scary blend, don't you think?

Actually, I just want to throw some hamhocks and peaches at someone.
I'm old. I can't believe M*A*S*H lost to Charmed.
M*A*S*H lost to Charmed? Wow. Wow wow wow. That...I have no words! It's just a silly poll, but wow.
I really don't get GOT. Like at all. Maybe I'm just weird, but I can't connect to anyone there. Sorry it's the strong female influence for this girl; Buffy and VM.
Like a true hipster, I'll vote against the option I like best, in an attempt to decrease its overall popularity. If you're part of the majority your opinion doesn't matter, after all.

(I don't actually do this, but I can't see as it would make much less sense than a "real" vote.)
How do you know the option you like best is in the majority before you vote Kairos (or how would you if you actually did that ;) ?

My "technique" is to vote randomly, sometimes I can be bothered, sometimes I can't (like this time) and if enough of us are similarly lazy/unbothered it should counterbalance the ballot stuffing. Random apathy - democracy's last best hope in the internet age ;).

(I can understand being frustrated with it BTW and I can also understand the impulse to let people do what they like, that's how I approach it for the most part while still occasionally pointing out my issues with it. What bugs me isn't really that we render most of these polls utterly pointless with our "block vote" - since they were pointless to begin with, just a bit of fun - it's more that some of us then seem to still believe they actually mean anything WRT the popularity of 'Firefly'/Buffy/whatever when clearly they don't. You can't cheat on an exam and then pat yourself on the back for how clever you are when you get high marks, just doesn't work that way)

[ edited by Saje on 2011-07-11 07:28 ]
Wow. Missed the poll (Buffy and Fringe won) but the next one looks nifty

Angel vs Bones and Firefly vs How I Met Your Mother
I think these polls are mostly fun excuses for discussion here. I kinda dislike it when block voting results in tremendously skewed results, but here Buffy was further ahead before the poll was linked here, so I don't really see the problem.

I love GOT, but I hope the next season will be a bit more creative in introducing new scenes and in providing necessary information (the books IMO are far more subtle and pleasing in this regard) and in the pacing / structering of the episodes (to make them stand more solidly on their own). I also would like to get to know the characters a little bit more (like we do in the books) so that BlueSkies and other non-readers can connected with them too.
I would like the polls better if you could only vote one time, but of course the sites that put these up like you to come back and vote early and often. The more hits the better. Also most of these polls start out with a nomination process first, so if your show is not one listed it is because you did not go and write it in.
You can only vote once, if you try again it says "Thank you. we have already counted your vote".
Hi,

Just thought I'd let you know that you can only vote ONCE in our polls. Unlike other polls which become a clickfest we only allow each person to vote once.

Cheers
DarkUFO
SpoilerTV
How do you know the option you like best is in the majority before you vote Kairos (or how would you if you actually did that ;) ?


Doesn't matter! Either way I can reinforce its unpopularity with a well-placed anti vote.

It would indeed all be a lot more fun if we just agreed up front that the polls were meaningless, wouldn't it? Take away the voice of the fan going, "This proves that X>Y" or "Z is the real fan favorite", and it's all just a good prompt for a discussion.

The real truth is that I voted for Buffy. Now let's pit GRRM's original book series against the BtVS novelizations.
I don't think it's necessary to keep posting links to SpoilerTV's comp so I added an entry to this one.
Now let's pit GRRM's original book series against the BtVS novelizations.
Now there's an easy vote...

Suppose GRRM would also quite easily win out if we compare originals (the Buffy movie vs. the books). But once Buffy the show gets involved things get though for George.
Just want to add, at no point was I assuming a majority of the readers of this site do the polls. But I can pretty safely assume people in this comment thread probably do, which is who I'm talking to. I have a tendency to go to everything Whedonesque sends me to, and if it happens to be a poll, I vote honestly for whomever I think is best in each category.

I didn't mean to imply that Whedonesque posting a link alone bombs the site. It's something more than that; it has to be. Polls aren't that important -- but that's the point. Some of us vote and revote, post and repost for each round of the polls, as if winning a best of poll makes it true -- that's assigning importance.

The io9er backlash is not a reaction to having strangers coming in to their open party. It's having a deluded gang come to your open party en masse, beat you at flip cup, burn the table, and leave. The point of a reader poll is to have a random selection of different fandoms vote objectively so we see what sci-fi fans think of something. I can't help what other people like, no -- but are you seriously of the opinion that 97% of io9's readership is made up of people that think Serenity is better than Empire Strikes Back? If so, you may want to re-evaluate that opinion, because it is nearly impossible. On here, yes. There, no. Everyone who has a varied sc-fi vocab knows that pop vote should have ended up with Empire, then 2001, then Blade Runner.

A segment of this site goes there and doesn't just vote, they revote. I think it gets them hits so io9 doesn't care, but its readership is starting to hate us. We're the new Trekkies, and I don't like it. We've always been reasonable and sardonic, the fandom with an actual language to learn if you really wanted to, and when we costumed up it was funny. We knew it was funny. You guys know cosplay is fun and funny, right? Now we're turning into the people who really believe in the 'verse and don't want to accept reality. It's just upsetting, that's all.
Polls aren't that important -- but that's the point.

Yes, that is precisely the point - the point why it doesn't really matter if people indulge themselves by obsessing over such polls occasionally. At worst they can only end up hurting their own egos and possibly those of others deluded enough to project their own assignations of importance onto the outer world (a lesson imo better learned sooner rather than later.)

The point of a reader poll is to have a random selection of different fandoms vote objectively [...]

You do know that the word fan is short for fanatic؟

I can't help what other people like, no -- but are you seriously of the opinion that 97% of io9's readership is made up of people that think Serenity is better than Empire Strikes Back?

I don't know - do you think it's likely that such a large portion of their readership has a strong sense of taste? ;)

A segment of this site goes there and doesn't just vote, they revote. I think it gets them hits so io9 doesn't care, but its readership is starting to hate us.

Not unless they hate themselves - by definition the people who go there habitually are the readership.
but its readership is starting to hate us.


The dislike of the Browncoats by the general scifi community has been growing for a few years now. The fan promotions for Serenity and then the subsequent poll hijackings has really rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. There's a philosophy of "no one loves we don't care" in the fandom but this is countered by the generosity and good natured spirit of the CSTS events. Unfortunately these days most people tend to see the "the Browncoats will rise again" mantra and stop there.

If some fans realised the impact of their actions and believe me it is more serious than is generally known then things would be different. So for the next few years we've made our bed and now we must lie in it. But I am the eternal optimist and in a few years time, I may be singing a different tune.
BTVS and Game of Thrones are both excellent shows that deserve the fannish devotion of their respective (and overlapping) fanbases. Which show will win the poll is really just a matter of which fanbase is paying more attention to online polls that day, and not a true measure of the worth of either show.

It is known.
Just out of interest Simon can you post some links about the backlash to Browncoat fandom?

Persoanlly I thought that i09 poll was bloody hilarious and I don't care for a lot of 'classic' sci-fi films so it was kind of a fun kick in the teeth to the sci-fi 'establishment'.
But I am the eternal optimist and in a few years time, I may be singing a different tune.

There's that as well. These things always come and go in cycles. Right now we just happen to be at a more painful/embarrassing phase.
Aww, when I went to bed Simon wasn't an eternal optimist and now he is, always nice to see it go in that direction ;).

(which fandoms have gone from liked to hated to liked BTW brinderwalt, being as it's all cyclic ? Trying to think of some but drawing a blank)

I'm one of those 'Firefly'/'Serenity' fans that's actually a sci-fi fan too (and was long before they existed) so sometimes it's a bit ridiculous to me to see the films/TV shows they beat but that's what happens when you have open polls, people vote for what they like (the Total Film one - where 'Serenity' was, IMO, a more "mainstream fan" realistic 44 BTW - drew some ire last week too with a lot of films whose appearance on a Top 50 was an affront according to some but the thing is, they must be someone's top 50 or they wouldn't be on there). It's a bit frustrating when it's a blind, uninformed choice (or "cheating" by multiple voting) but then at least it's just some daft poll on the internet rather than e.g. who's going to run the most powerful single country in the free world ;).
I'll give you the first one but that second one hardly counts, They could just be kidding
Even if they are, it reflects an attitude/perception (it's also not uncommon in these articles to see jokey comments to the effect of "We'd include it anyway because 'Firefly' was great but it's partly because if we didn't we'd be descended upon by the Brown Horde" - they're also kidding but it's half-jest, whole earnest). There's even a parodic "Where's 'Firefly' ?" mini-meme at places like The AV Club originating from the number of immediate complaints that'd be posted if someone dared to produce one of these "17 Shows We Wish Hadn't Been Shafted Cos We Liked Them" lists without it on there.

How much it matters i'm less convinced about - if it starts to affect the amazing charity work Browncoats do then that's a problem (but then if you don't contribute to charity because of some personal problem with the people doing the collecting then maybe you need to take a look at yourself), otherwise it's random farties on the internet who don't like each other for largely stupid reasons. Stop the presses.

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