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"Because, sir, to be blunt, the last time you became complacent about your existence turned out rather badly."
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July 19 2011

Seven reasons why they should bring back Firefly. A Thought Machine editor puts forward her case.

5. Who is River Tam?
...
Will she be able to escape The Hands Of Blue?
She already did. See the comics.
What really happened to her before Simon saved her?
See the R. Tam sessions. (Okay, actually there's obviously plenty to mine here, still.)
6. The fans
...
...theyíre there, seething and laying in a constant anticipatory wait. Theyíre quiet, marginalized and disenfranchised...
Except for those who are neither waiting nor quiet not marginalized nor disenfranchised, but instead are out doing good works in Firefly's name. (Just sayin'.)

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2011-07-19 08:03 ]
There should be some kind of Internet moratorium on these kinds of articles. Let it go, people.

(Said as someone who initially found it very hard to let go.)

Edit: Looking at the article again, Serenity ended on a cliffhanger? Unless you count the primary buffer panel falling off again...

[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2011-07-19 08:10 ]
Didn't No.3 already happen in Serenity?

And how is Serenity a cliff-hanger?
I would guess that the 'cliffhanger' the writer is referring to would be with regards to the kind of territory that Browncoats: Redemption was intended to cover: the aftereffects of the signal that couldn't be stopped.

I don't really think it was a cliffhanger, though - just Joss leaving room for more stories, as he's wont to do.
Let it go?
I have a few replies to that (all intended politely of course)

- A lot of fans came late, so haven't had as much time to grieve and get over it
- Firefly meant different things to different people in different amounts, and so while getting over it might work fine for some people, it does not necessarily work as finely for others
- Most importantly, this had the potential to (arguably) become the greatest achievement in the history of the medium. The denial of Firefly, and all of it's potential, is not just a loss to each of us as individuals, our minds and souls, but a loss to the world and to all future generations as yet unborn.

Considering the above, I can't understand how there ever can be an overreaction to such a loss (as long as it remains non-violent of course)
I loved, and continue to love, Firefly with all my heart. I even agree with you that it had the potential to be the best TV show in the history of, well, ever. And I'm not saying that the author is overreacting--I want it back just as badly as she does, I would imagine--but that there comes a time when, close to a decade following the show's demise, you must accept the fact that it is not coming back. I have nothing whatsoever against the author or her very valid reaction to the show's cancellation, but after so many years and so. very. many. articles about this exact same thing, it all just becomes a little silly.

I want Firefly to come back. Firefly will never come back, except in the form of the occasional comic book. I think it's time to stop stoking the fires in that regard, and move on. The show still lives on, an example being the wonderful Can't Stop the Serenity events which The One True b!X alluded to earlier (at least I think that was the allusion). I'm all for retrospectives or analyses or discussions, as that's what keeps fandom alive, but all the articles about why (or, in some cases, how) it should/could come back, should probably be put to bed at this late date.
Guess we need to try and remember that to new fans it's effectively only just been cancelled (emotionally I mean). Sometimes it's hard though and from our perspective these sorts of things feel like pie in the sky at best and slightly scary denial of reality at worst.

And how is Serenity a cliff-hanger?

What was that panel that fell off at the end ? How, if at all, is it related to the primary buffer panel ? Were they brothers and the second panel left on a sworn mission of vengeance ? Inquiring maniacs need to know.
We all want it to come back, but.... these aren't good enough reasons to really state what the fans need/want let alone a studio. We all want it, but we only want it if it could be Firefly again - which it probably won't be. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that a studio was willing to bring it back. And the cast was willing to return. This many years of anticipation and hope from the Browncoats means whatever they make will fall short of our expectations.

Better for the show to live on in our hearts and minds than be destroyed. It was a brilliant show, we all want it back - but these really aren't good enough reasons, esp. when several of them have already been answered by the film.
You know, all it would take to renew the possibility of Firefly's resurrection would be for one well-heeled billionaire to fall in love with it. I'm not saying that it's likely or that I even have hopes ... but it isn't impossible.

*edit* As far as these things go, this IS a pretty weak list.

[ edited by blanetalk on 2011-07-19 11:43 ]
UnpluggedCrazy

I don't disagree with much of what you say, but I still must take a differing stance.

Somewhere in the world, there is someone who watched the show for the first time ever this week, and someone else who watched it for the first time ever this month. Those people show up at places like IMDb or Amazon and for them this is new. For a long, long time I hope that there are people who discover Firefly (and the other various works of Joss and associates) and love them as much as we did. We have a different perspective then they do, one that I believe to be no more or less legitimate. They have the right to be freshly frustrated, or angry or depressed or whatever else. Our reaction, after so many articles and conversations is different, it should be different, but these people have just as much right to feel now that which we did back then.

And then there are those who hang onto it to the degree that you mean, even after all of these years. In an ideal world I'd agree with you that the fans who have lived with the show for 5+ years should have let the negative feelings go by now. But this isn't, and never will be, an ideal world and who are we to tell people how they should feel? There are much bigger problems in the world then people who feel too connected to a good show, with so many other wonderful fans. If they still want to believe, even as impossible as that belief might seem, then I will smile and wish them well.

That's my opinion. I respect that you disagree and in a perfect world you might well be right, but in the world in which we live, I am ever heartened that so many can feel so much about the experience of Firefly.
In an ideal world I'd agree with you that the fans who have lived with the show for 5+ years should have let the negative feelings go by now. But this isn't, and never will be, an ideal world and who are we to tell people how they should feel? There are much bigger problems in the world then people who feel too connected to a good show, with so many other wonderful fans. If they still want to believe, even as impossible as that belief might seem, then I will smile and wish them well.

Very well put - couldn't agree more. And may there be many more articles like this one despite the exasperation among a select few it may cause.
Is it a 'select few' though ? That sounds like supposing something because it's what you want to believe brinderwalt, not your usual thorough approach at all ;).

(whether it's a select few or the vast majority is irrelevant anyway IMO - people are free to post whatever they like and we're free to read it, not read it, ignore it, complain about it, wish they wouldn't, wish they would only moreso etc. Ain't freedom of expression a wonderful thing ? ;)
Err, only seven reasons?
Is it a 'select few' though ? That sounds like supposing something because it's what you want to believe brinderwalt, not your usual thorough approach at all ;).

'select few' as in those to whom it has been almost ten years since the show stopped being new - ie. original viewer fans - of which by most reports there weren't statistically very many...

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2011-07-19 13:19 ]
I can understand being emotionally moved by a show, and it having plenty of potential...but I think it's also important to consider that what's past is past and it's more important to focus on what Joss is doing in the future, along with the writers and actors who all worked on Firefly.
Waterkeeper, we are looking forward to Joss' future projects. What you must understand, there's a link to the past as well. Trust me, we all mean well to Joss.
The thing is it did come back as a movie and then in comic book form. How many times do it have to come back before we're happy?
At least once more apparently (and probably not then either).

...ie. original viewer fans - of which by most reports there weren't statistically very many...

Ah right, get you. That seems to be quite a narrow definition of the people who might be exasperated by this sort of article though ? FWIW, i'd consider myself an early fan but I wasn't an original viewer by a long chalk (first saw it in 2004 on Sci-Fi UK) since, apart from anything else, i'm unAmerican. There'd seem to be a lot of middle ground between original viewers and new fans (though the line's arbitrary of course) - more middle ground than not in fact, as tends to be the case.
The thing is it did come back as a movie and then in comic book form. How many times do it have to come back before we're happy?

Pretty sure that the author's wish is to see it come back as a tv series specifically*, so at least once more.:)

* Notice the general lack of acknowledgment of non-televised things.

There'd seem to be a lot of middle ground between original viewers and new fans (though the line's arbitrary of course) - more middle ground than not in fact, as tends to be the case.

You know, I'd be interested in seeing a poll done to determine when self-professed Firefly fans first became fans. It could be interesting.
What's wrong with the comic books? I'm guessing that the plot lines explored there would have turned up in the tv series had it continued. After all, the first mini-series was the adaptation of the animated Serenity prequel.
You know, I'd be interested in seeing a poll done to determine when self-professed Firefly fans first became fans. It could be interesting.

Certainly would, how many came to it through Joss and how many through sci-fi fandom (and how many both - *waves* ;) would be interesting to know too.

Surely there'd have to more "middle ground" fans than otherwise though right ? I mean, there're more years in the middle (not to mention a honking great movie) than there are at the two ends, that's just 'rithmetic (unless the fandom really is growing exponentially, as some of the online articles would have us believe - hint: probably not ;).
What, another poll?! Bite that tongue for thinking such thoughts! Where's my favorite rocket launcher?

You know, I don't think its when you caught the Buffy vibe or how. For that matter, really can't explain what IS the Buffy vibe. Just know it when you feel it. Could it be that simple?

Anyhoo, it's a pleasure to share the same with you few.
Clearly all of News Corp's problems started with the cancellation of Firefly.

2003: Fox cancel Firefly.
2011: News Corp share plummet.

Coincidence? I think we all know the answer....
After all, the first mini-series was the adaptation of the animated Serenity prequel.


Simon, you're messing with my head, right? Or an animated prequel that was abandoned?

Man, I would LOVE an animated Firefly (and I do enjoy the comics. Just wish there were more of them)
From December 2004.

The recent delay of Joss Whedonís Serenity isnít the only intrigue taking place behind the scenes. Word is going around that Universal wanted to do a Serenity animated feature film direct to DVD, in the vein of The Animatrix or The Chronicles of Riddick: Dark Fury. And apparently, they were serious enough to commission a script. The writer chosen for this project was Brett Matthews, who wrote an episode of Firefly and also provided the script for Dark Fury. Matthews and Whedon came up with a story for the Serenity animated feature and Matthews was set to tackle the script.

However, for reasons that arenít entirely clear, the Serenity animated feature isnít happening. But that doesnít mean this story wonít see the light of day. Dark Horse is rumored to be very interested in using the story Matthews and Whedon came up with as the basis for their first Serenity miniseries. If it happens, look for the miniseries to be written by Matthews, who already has a few comic scripts under his belt, including the Marvel Knights Spider-Man/Wolverine miniseries that came out last year.

Saje: Guess we need to try and remember that to new fans it's effectively only just been cancelled (emotionally I mean).

Yeah, this - or in WHEDONesque-speak, WSSTM.

I'm almost afraid these days to turn someone on to Firefly, because even though I tell them right at the start that it got cancelled after 14 episodes, they invariably become so attached to the characters and the world that they are upset at the end - an upset that Serenity does little to quell. But I do share it nonetheless, and they do become distraught, and that's just how it is. We can't not become attached to things that will end, even "prematurely", because we'd never become attached to anything. This is the major suckage thing about life.

While I am usually one of the first to say that Firefly as TV show is 99 and 99/100 not coming back (see HNBF), I'm one of the last to say that people should get over it at some point I have determined. No one knows when another's grieving --> moves into dwelling on pain, and I've had enough people in my life tell me I should be "over" something to know how irritating and pointless it is to try and determine it for someone else.

So these lists will be made, and I don't care - like many things in this world, if I'm not interested, or I don't believe in it, I just skip it. People need their expression, and in the words of Monty Python, well, it's better than bottling it up, isn't it? For the most part, it's pretty harmless.

It took Our Jossir years to get over it - if he has - so I think it's possible to have a little compassion for the many Browncoats who still miss it, and want to believe it can come back. Compassion, you know, without throwing money at it, or suchlike. ; ]
Also an issue for fans that were there from the beginning could be that it doesn't seem like it was that long ago. It feels very difficult to believe that we're almost 9 years from when it premiered.
Yeah, I actually feel more bitter to Universal rather than to Fox. It was a dark time.
Ah, but for what could have been. Dark Fury was awesome, and in more recent history, the animated prequel to the Dead Space games was really good too. Again, I love the comics and I'm glad the story got to us somehow, but that would have been great.

It's been a long time, and it's not likely to ever happen again. I choose to live in hope. I don't realistically believe that there will be Serenity 2, or Firefly season 2, but it makes me happy to think about a world where it COULD happen. I have similar and equally unlikely hope for the band The Tear Garden going on tour. As long as we KNOW we're being obsessive crazy fans, that makes it okay ;-) The sky is very pretty in my world!
Can we PLEASE just stop with this? Shows don't get brought back. Least of all this one. End of story.
Can I ask, pathsunbeaten, why you care if this is discussed? Can't you just, you know, skip a thread you find silly or pointless?
I don't find this silly or pointless at all. I think it's indicative of a mindlessly repetitive pattern that prevents people from moving on and appreciating good entertainment that's still around.
I don't especially see a mass of evidence that the can't-let-go crowd isn't currently enjoying other television shows.
Yes, b!X, right there with ya on that - there's no basis that I know of on which to to conclude that folks that hold to the idea of a Firefly 2 don't appreciate other, more current TV.

Also, pathsunbeaten, though it may seem "mindlessly repetitive" to you, fandom goes in cycles, as has been mentioned above, and there is a constant influx of new folks for whom the idea of another season of Firefly has not been endlessly re-hashed, though it has been done to death for those of us who have been around somewhat longer.

That's true of about a kajillion other fandom discussions - what's my favorite Buffy episode? Is there moral greyness in the concept and execution of the Dollhouse? Just how upset do I get when I watch "The Body?" Is Joss taller than 5'8" and how long has he had that earring?

It's just part of the stuff intrinsic to a fandom that new folks will come and old folks will go, and the same stuff come up over and over again. I think it's one thing to be tired of certain things, and another to want fans to stop talking about them.

As long as no one is asking for pledged dollars, or raising hopes in a concerted-yet-fruitless effort to, say, help a certain actor buy the rights to Firefly, I can't see the harm in it. It's how some people express their love of the show.

It's not my way, particularly, but if I used that as a yardstick for what's okay, there'd be very few people in this world I could talk to. Which would really suck, as I clearly enjoy the talking.
I'm with pathsunbeaten on this one, though I think there's a nicer way to bring it up.

b!X: I don't think it's that the can't-let-go crowd isn't enjoying other shows, but they tend to publicly focus on Firefly to the point of creating things like the "Help Nathan Buy Firefly Oh Wait Let's Just Buy It For Ourselves" campaign.

I'm not saying this is how it is, but my personal understanding of this fandom is that there is a difference between being a general Whedon fan (enjoying everything or most of what the man has done, though you may have your own favorites) and being a Fireflan. (Browncoat. Whatever.) I don't think it's a bad difference, but just from the way I observe people and threads here and elsewhere, I can't help but feel that the Browncoats have their very own "thing" going on; again, it's not bad at all, but their "thing" is very vocal.

Good things have happened as a result of this, like the charity proceedings, but I often worry that the mass of Browncoats sometimes overshadows the rest of Whedon's work. I've experienced people who refused to give Buffy, Angel, etc. a chance because even though it was all produced by the same guy (and often with the same writers and occasionally the same actors), "it's still not Firefly." I don't mean watching a show and not liking it, I mean flat-out refusing because it's not Nathan Fillion and company in space, cursing in Mandarin.

I think Simon brought up a good point: "Firefly" was brought back as Serenity and it continues to exist in comic book form. I get that it's not the same as a TV show at all, but lists like this article, to me, sometimes give off an air of ingratitude towards the fact that the Firefly canon is still around and being developed. Again, I'm not saying that's how people all feel, or even that's how I view things on this site. Just an observation I've made in my own experiences.

And THAT is what sometimes fuels emotions like pathsunbeaten is expressing. Yes, it's very easy to skip over a thread; I often don't check out the Firefly/Serenity threads here. But it's always okay to have an opinion as long as you can deliver it delicately.

Which I hope I did. =)
b!X: I don't think it's that the can't-let-go crowd isn't enjoying other shows, but they tend to publicly focus on Firefly to the point of creating things like the "Help Nathan Buy Firefly Oh Wait Let's Just Buy It For Ourselves" campaign.

Except that I was responding to a specific point made in this thread that the can't-let-go crowd isn't enjoying other entertainment.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2011-07-19 20:43 ]
In that case, I was agreeing with you and expanding on the rest of the discussion.
The impression I got was that much of the HNBF crowd are relatively recent recruits to the Firefly cause and hence still burning with the passion of the convert. They're not even past the first stage of grief, much less onto the letting-it-go stage.

I found the list a bit frivolous. There are so many better reasons to bring Firefly back, all of which have been listed over and over in forums, blogs, and the innumerable media sites trawling for page views. I've become increasingly pessimistic over the past nine years, 98% certain it's gone forever, 2% wildly optimistic that The Avengers will give Joss the clout he needs to pull it off. In that respect I think I'm not alone.
Good things have happened as a result of this, like the charity proceedings, but I often worry that the mass of Browncoats sometimes overshadows the rest of Whedon's work. I've experienced people who refused to give Buffy, Angel, etc. a chance because even though it was all produced by the same guy (and often with the same writers and occasionally the same actors), "it's still not Firefly." I don't mean watching a show and not liking it, I mean flat-out refusing because it's not Nathan Fillion and company in space, cursing in Mandarin.

If someone professes liking to watch 'Nathan Fillion and company in space, cursing in Mandarin' why would it, or for that matter should it follow that they'd like something else?

I think Simon brought up a good point: "Firefly" was brought back as Serenity and it continues to exist in comic book form. I get that it's not the same as a TV show at all, but lists like this article, to me, sometimes give off an air of ingratitude towards the fact that the Firefly canon is still around and being developed.

Since this (and most other authors who write on this topic) are clearly trying to make the case for a live-action continuation, why would you see it as reflecting - good or bad - on what might be going on in other mediums? If this were a general plea for a Firefly continuation then you'd have a point, but it pretty clearly isn't.


ETA: Typos...

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2011-07-19 22:43 ]
...why would you see it that as reflecting - good or bad - on what might be going on in other mediums?

Well, for one thing, the article obviously doesn't even know what's been covered in the comics. That seems rather inherently dismissive of them.
Genuine ignorance (imo what this list exhibits - in addition to a slight lack of taste) isn't the same as dismissiveness.
brinderwalt, you bring up really good points.

I maintain that a person who enjoys one Whedon show will MORE THAN LIKELY (not in every single situation) enjoy one or more other Whedon shows. This is because they're produced by the same person who often uses familiar faces in his production/development teams. Even though the stories, themes, and characters are different, I see a general trend of "Whedony" attributes across his work, and though I enjoy characters/story/thematic elements/etc. in each individual work, I enjoy his body of work because you can always tell it's his. The humor is similar, Whedon's style of directing is similar (though the man isn't afraid of trying new things), and though each show is different, unique, and special, I just feel that a fan of one show should at the VERY least give the rest of his work a chance. Please note that I'm not talking about someone checking something out and not enjoying it; I'm referring to people I know who have refused to even consider watching Whedon's work outside of Firefly because it's "not Firefly" and they see it as supporting things that are not Firefly and the possible creation of things that are also not Firefly (when Whedon's time should clearly be spent producing more Firefly and nothing else). Their opinions, not mine.

And yes, the list is clearly giving reasons why "they" should bring back Firefly as a television show...but the point I'm trying to make is that other media =/= different stories (at least not always). I don't think it's fair to ask for more of a TV show when the canonical story is being continued elsewhere. And though this list is exhibiting genuine ignorance on the topic as opposed to dismissiveness, it doesn't take long to hop onto Firefly's Wikipedia entry and see that such continuations exist. That comes across as dismissive (the fact that they didn't even bother to check).
Well, for one thing, the article obviously doesn't even know what's been covered in the comics. That seems rather inherently dismissive of them.

Playing devil's advocate, but not really. Maybe for diehard fans, but not everyone enjoys comics. Sacrilege? I enjoy the comics, but I only read them because I can't get the ongoing stories of these characters in the media I'd prefer. Sure, official canon includes the comics, but I wouldn't be as strong to call them inherently dismissive.
Waterkeeper511,

I've seen Firefly fans who won't check out the other works, but I've seen at least as many, and maybe more, Buffy fans who won't check out Firefly or the other shows. Some Buffy fans who haven't even watched Angel. And lots of fans of both who won't watch Dollhouse.

I agree that everyone should give everything a try. All of them have lots of good points. Maybe what someone likes about one show won't translate to another, but people won't know until they've tried. That being said, people have their own reasons for doing (or not doing) what they do and that's of course their right. We can try to convince people on an individual basis, but there will always be those who will avoid some of the shows, for whatever reason.
Ok, my worms for the can.

The trouble with resurrecting Firefly as a TV show a decade later is that inevitably there would be changes. For once, the actors have matured physically and a lot of people who helped to make the show what it was would not be able to return for various reasons (as Waterkeeper511 has pointed out).

These changes wouldn't bother me -- or at least I would be open to the new experiences. But something tells me that the people who find it the hardest to let go would be the ones most likely to consider these inevitable changes as a major deal-breaker.
I maintain that a person who enjoys one Whedon show will MORE THAN LIKELY (not in every single situation) enjoy one or more other Whedon shows.

And I whole-heartedly agree with you, as does - I expect - virtually everyone else in this thread.

Even though the stories, themes, and characters are different, I see a general trend of "Whedony" attributes across his work, and though I enjoy characters/story/thematic elements/etc. in each individual work, I enjoy his body of work because you can always tell it's his.

Not everyone who consumes his creations does so just because of his involvement. Clearly there are those (such as your below cited comrades) who get (or at least think they get) most of their enjoyment from characters/story/thematic/etc elements and not specifically the "Whedony" attributes as you do. And while I'd suspect that most such individuals are severely limiting their opportunities for enjoyment they are still entitled to an opinion. After all - not everyone has the time or energy to investigate every single piece of entertainment out there that might just tickle their fancy, and I can understand why someone who has a definite preference for 4 out of 5 aspects of a show would be disinclined to sample another show that only exhibits that ambiguous 5th aspect.

And yes, the list is clearly giving reasons why "they" should bring back Firefly as a television show...but the point I'm trying to make is that other media =/= different stories (at least not always). I don't think it's fair to ask for more of a TV show when the canonical story is being continued elsewhere.

Each medium of entertainment has its own specific set of attributes that sets it apart, and while different mediums may share key attributes (such as story) there is no reason why the existence of one (graphic novels) should preclude the existence of another (TV) since they are not equivalent forms of entertainment.

[ edited by Simon on 2011-07-20 15:46 ]
Can we PLEASE just stop with this? Shows don't get brought back. Least of all this one. End of story.

End of story? Not always.

And as far as false hope, there is no such thing. There is only hope or the absence of hope-nothing else. ~Patti Davis~

[ edited by menomegirl on 2011-07-20 15:53 ]
That was weird.
There we go, the div tag wasn't closed properly.
Thanks, Simon!
Sorry about that - public transit was being irksome.
Ummm... I'm one of those people who'd like to see Firefly rise again. I saw the original run, too. (Well, sorta. That darn FOX programming.) I'm not interested for any of the reasons stated in the article. And not for now. It's not the right time. I know that. I also know it may never be the right time. Sometimes, a creator just can't manifest an idea fast enough and then when they have the time, they find out that their insides have moved on. (Plus, there is that teeny tiny financing problem.)

I think the internet which keeps everything alive (or provides ongoing torture depending on your POV) can add to the feeling of weariness. I myself, pretty much only subject myself to the stuff linked here. So maybe that helps keep me from feeling quite so clobbered and bruised?

I admit I have visions/delusions of it someday being like the Trekverse - but different of course, because it is Joss and not Gene. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be one of Joss's future projects. It could be a continuance in films or a show or even 'verse spin-offs. I don't think I'd care. I guess I have an ongoing faith in Joss's storytelling ability. If he ever revisits the world in a AV medium, I know it will be different. It should be different. But I also know it will be relevant and painful and adventurous and funny and that he will once again make me care. Because that's what he does.
Thank you for the TV Tropes link, Menomegirl. I had no idea that there are two more seasons of Damages to be seen.

I'm a selective fan of Joss Whedon's work, which is not the same thing as closing my mind to anything that isn't Firefly. Firefly was my introduction to Joss Whedon and remains far and away my favorite work by him, with Serenity the movie a close second. I've watched some episodes of his other TV shows (more of Dollhouse than Buffy or Angel) but didn't fall in love with them.

Most of his other work to date has been in genres or media in which I have limited interest. I'm sticking around because I expect that sooner or later Joss will make something I will like as much as Firefly. I would have watched Wonder Woman; I'm planning to see the Avengers movie, which I wouldn't give the time of day to if anyone else were the writer.

I'd really like to see another TV series set in the Firefly universe or any TV series that Joss has a fairly free hand in making.
Length of time is no barrier to bringing back a show. Doctor Who was resurrected (you can argue whether it was cancelled or merely on hiatus) after intervals of 7 (between original series and TV movie) and 9 years (TV movie to new series).

Money is.

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