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October 26 2011

(SPOILER) Discuss Angel & Faith #3. It's the third part of the much praised "Live Through This" arc.

Another excellent issue-Issac's art (and likenesses) improve with every panel.

Angel's plan seems to have come to nothing. With the Mohra dead, will Faith use the remaining bottles on Angel (and this is a distinct possibility-nothing is certain in this comic), or will she allow Angel a chance to prove himself right?

I liked the new character-would be nice if he was more than a one off. Lovely details in his flat.

Nadira isnt appealing to me much at the moment. But I'm sure there's more to come with her.

One nitpick-some of Issac's fashion choices for Angel are a bit odd;the tshirt, shirt and vneck cardigan ensemble when they go to visit Coames is horrendous and Angel would never wear that in a month of Sundays lol
"One nitpick-some of Issac's fashion choices for Angel are a bit odd;the tshirt, shirt and vneck cardigan ensemble when they go to visit Coames is horrendous and Angel would never wear that in a month of Sundays lol"

That's what makes it a disguise!

Really, the art is so gorgeous. Faith looks both beautiful, and like Faith. The details in the new character's flat were outstanding.

I'm still not feeling any more sympathy for Angel. He's a dangerous guy when he has any power at all, you'd think he would realize that more than anyone. Him not thinking along those lines makes him seem brain-dead instead of dead-dead. How does he still see himself as a positive force in the world as is?
Quick summary here.


It starts with the preview pages that we have already seen.
In Faith's question if Angel thinks about becoming human, Angel replies that he has a lot of things to do and he can't do those as a human. He also says that the Shanshu is out of the question for the moment but Faith reminds him that now thanks to him and Buffy there are no more apocalypses and becoming human is what is coming for Angel. Angel hesitates for a moment, but he then replies that a stake in his heart is what will come for him eventually and until then he has work to do.

Then we read Faith's thoughts wondering what would Angel do if Faith makes him human. Will he reconsile with that or will he kill himself doing exactly the same thing that he does as a vampire?

The issue continues showing us Angel and Faith doing an investigation asking people. Then they meet and they talk and they understand that the Mohra blood has been on the market for a while. Some people got cured completely but some others are lost. Faith thinks that there is a chance that some get the real thing while others are fooled, give their money and get killed afterwards, because the blood is rare.

No one knows where Fraser gets the blood, and they need help, so they go to an old friend of Giles, who describes himself as another old fool with a house full of rubbish and strange stories now that magic is lost. Now he has dedicated himself in collecting any vestige creatures that have remained in our reality and are in danger. He informs them that Mohra demons are warriors and they return to their reality once they complete their task. If one has Mohra's blood, that means that he has captured a Mohra demon and he needs lots of salt to feed him.

While Angel and Faith leave his house, Faith receives a call and tells Angel she's got to go, one of her slayer is in trouble. Angel offers his help, but Faith says that it's female trouble. She finds 2 slayers in a bar, and they inform her that Nadira has lost it and she is in a fight with a bunch of guys. Faith buys drinks to the boys and she manages to stop the fight and drive Nadira out of the bar. She asks her what is wrong with her and Nadira replies that it was a slow night, no vampires to kill. Faith reminds her that she mustn't fight with humans since she is much stronger than them, and Nadira realises that she was wrong and wonders what is wrong with her. Faith tells her that is just her slayer part, she was craving for a fight because she has power and she must let it out. As long as she has the power wshe will feel the need to use it, but she must be smart about it. The girls then ask Faith to lead them as a more experienced one and tell her that they trust her, but Faith feels the burden of the responsibility and doesn't want it and tells them that she has to go.

While she leaves the girls, she realises that Giles' old friend has followed her. She gets mad and she asks him what he wants, and he replies that he understood that Angel wants to resurrect Giles but it is wrong and they mustn't do that. Faith informs him that Angel won't listen to her, but the old man tells her that she must be mature about it and convince him. Faith feels the burden of responsibility again and wonders who made her responsible out of the blue. The old man replies, "my dear girl, you did!"

Next Faith and Angel go in an estate outside London in disguise (Faith wears a dress!) where they auction Mohra's blood. They pretend to be clients but they try to influence the other clients to wonder whether the blood is real or not. The auctioneer shows them a Mohra demon in captivity to prove his merchandise and Faith with Angel attack. But they are out numbered, so Angel gets free teh Mohra demon for help. The demon thanks Angel, but feels too weak to fight and decides to die with honor and commits suicide and he goes poof! So they deomn is lost, no more Mohra blood only that inside some vessels that was drained from him before. Everybody in the house rush towards the blood trying to take some, Faith manages to get a couple of vessels, and right at that point Perl and Nash join the "party" and see Angel and attack him.

Faith watches the 2 demons fighting Angel and understand why Nadira is so fucked up and so is Angel. For 250 years he has been creating monsters, Drusila, Spike and even worst and then he had to deal with them. So she decides to help Angel get rid of those two specific monsters (Nash and Perl) and then to get rid of a monster for herself....meaning Angel.

End of issue 3.
@Xane Not when he goes to Frasers (in the white shirt and black waistcoat), this is earlier when they go to Giles' old wizard friend. Don't think he's in disguise then...just bad fashion choice:-)

And I have a feelin that Angel doesn't see himself as a force for good. I have a feeling he just wants to bring back Giles...and may then turn the stake on himself...
He informs them that Mohra demons are warriors and they return to their reality once they complete their task.

What was the great purpose of the captured Mohra demon? Did he succeeded? Did he failed? Are we to expect a new warrior (for good or for for evil)?
@anca I'm guessing he was a McGuffin...prob not see any more of them.
@anca, we have no idea. The issue doesn't say. All we know is that probably there was a Mohra demon in our dimension before the destruction of the seed and he couldn't go back to his hell dimension. He got captured, and some started trading his blood for money in auctions. But Faith's and Angel's investigation reveals that sometimes people were getting the blood but have disappeared ever since. So Faith assumes that because the blood is rare, and the demon cannot keep on producing it but needs some time to heal, people sometimes were being fooled and weren't given the real blood but got killed instead (after giving their money).
Summary of my own:

After the preview pages, Faith and Angel continue their conversation about Angel becoming human and how it's tied into the Shanshu prophecy (which apparently Giles knew about). Faith notes that Angel's refusal to consider it is marked with hesitation.

She keeps fretting over it through a montage page wherein the two of them beat up a cyclopean demon. The next page is a montage of Fraser's Mohra blood customers talking about their mixed experiences healing loved ones. Faith and Angel talk about what it means and conclude that the blood is real but they need to know more about Mohra demons.

They find a source in an old friend of Giles, an aged man called Alasdair Coames. They meet with him in his own house, which is full of the Giles-type books and antiques, but also a variety of creatures: faeries, a chimera, a tiny adorable dragon, and a few pairs of eyes peeking out from under things. Angel is petting a normal cat (Fantastic Donut???) and asking, "You're the same Alasdair Coames who fought in the Ley Line War of '78?" (He looks impressed!) Coames admits that he is, but says that times have changed and now he's no archmage at all.

He does, however, know a thing or two about Mohra demons, all of it in line with what we learned in "I Will Remember You". He suggest that the truckloads of salt needed to keep the captive Mohra alive would leave a paper trail that they can follow.

Coames declines payment for his time, and as Faith and Angel are leaving, Faith gets a call on her cell. She says she has to go help her girls and that she doesn't need him to come. It turns out that Nadira has started a fight in a pub, herself against an entire team of jocks (forgive my ignorance but I'm not sure if there's evidence for what sport they represent). Faith breaks it up neatly by offering free drinks for all of them (instead of showing them her jugs, as she says she once would have done), and the girls drag Nadira outside.

Nadira keeps raging for a panel or two, then curls up and asks what's the matter with her - she should be able to just get drunk or run up her credit card like a normal person. Faith has a nice response for this: Slayers aren't normal, and they can't pretend to not have the power that makes them jones for a fight. "As long as you have power...you're gonna feel the need to use it."

Nadira, not sure she should be trusted, asks Faith what she should do, and Faith says its her call. Nadira insists that Faith is the grownup - boy, does that not go over well. Then Coames shows up in the alley, quite unexpectedly, and Faith warns him away from the girls and then misreads his intentions as hitting on her.

His real intention is to tell her that he's figured out what Angel is up to with the Mohra blood, and that resurrecting Giles would have terrible consequences for the world. He tells her she has to stop him, and she again laments being made "the responsible one", though Coames claims it's her own doing.

We next see Faith and Angel attending a party at a mansion, both of them dressed sharply and Angel holding his game face the entire time. Everyone is there for a Mohra blood auction that Fraser is holding. He displays a dozen or so green bottles and then proves that they're legitimate by bringing out the captive demon, who seems to be bound to an enchanted slab of stone. Angel and Faith immediately take the opportunity to kill the guards and release the demon by busting the gems on the stone.

Angel tells the Mohra that it needs to help them fight their way outside, but the Mohra simply thanks him for freeing it and then chooses to die with honor, and plunges a sword into its forehead gem. One of the customers immediately sees that the only Mohra blood that will ever be available again is in the bottles on the table, and there's an instant riot in the mansion to get at it. The table tips over, breaking most of the bottles, but Faith grabs two.

Angel, who should know better, says that things could not possibly have gone worse. Nash and Pearl come in through the window, looking for Mohra blood and happy to see Angel looking so easy to kill. Angel has a panel of shock and guilt, and then tells them he's going to explain why he betrayed them.

Page turn, he's back in game face, saying "You're psychotic bastards. And you need to be put down." Faith, seeing the two of them for the first time, thinks that it explains why Nadira is so messed up - and Angel too. She joins the fight, even more resolved to help him kill the monsters, including the one inside him.
I have my copy of Angel & Faith # 3."Live Through This Part III of IV"
This was another very strong issue although it does suffer a little from middle of the story lag.You know,where part three of a four issue arc or part four of a five issue arc is sort of standing in place before the climax in the next issue.I think Angel & Faith #3 suffers a little from that but there is a lot of interesting character stuff and new info that this issue doesn't fall completely under the weight of the middle of the arc syndrome.

The scene just after the last preview page starting from the last panel of that page going into the next two pages is loaded with all kinds of character beats from what is said and not said or almost said to facial expressions starting with the last panel above.

Also I was surprised and loved the fact that these pages reveal that Giles found out and knew about the shanshu prophecy and Angel's role in it and told Faith all about it at some point I assume in season 8.I wonder how long Giles has known about the shanshu.Did Wesley consult with Giles about it during ATS off screen?Maybe between the summer of ATS season 1 and season 2 after they learned about it?

As the summary's mention,we meet a new character named Alasdair Coames who is a old friend of Giles.His home is visually impressive with lots eye candy to find.Rebekah Isaacs did another great job in this issue by the way.I love the little visual of Angel petting Alasdair's cat and the cat enjoying it(reminds me of when I pet my own cat on the top of his head).Also got a laugh of Faith annoyingly pointing out the little male faeries, in his home trying to fly down her shirt.lol

We learn from Coames more about the Morah demons and how their warrior assassins of the hell dimensions and consider their work work a sacred calling.After they complete a mission,they return to their home dimension but since the destruction of the seed,the morah demon Fraser is using must of got stuck here.It could be the last on earth and is being held captive for its blood.

Faith gets called away to deal with Nadira who has started a bar fight.Faith plays peacemaker and councils Nadira.I'm starting to wonder if we are supposed to see parallels between Angel and Nadira and Faith's role with both.Which will almost definitely become even more interesting when Nadira finds out about Faith looking out for Angel.Also see that Faith is uncomfortable with being considered the grown up and responsible one.That plays out even more in the next scene.

We get a meeting with Alasdair Coames and Faith who followed her.And we get a big reveal in regards to Angel's misguided plan to bring back Giles.Alasdair reveals that it's not just bad for Giles but could endanger the world too.Especially a world without magic where it can't protect itself.Coames tells Faith what she already knows.That she has to put a stop to Angel's plan before it's too late and that it's her responsibility because she made herself responsible for Angel.

So we cut to the demon auction and as the summaries mention,Angel and Faith crash it.They free the Morah demon who thanks Angel but kills itself in honorable death since it's too weak to fight from the blood letting.

This wasn't part of Angel's plan of course.With the Morah demon dead and now limited Morah blood because of it.Everybody at the auction makes a grab for the bottles of the last of Morah blood.Most of the bottles are broken in the the riot to get it but Faith manages to save two bottles.

That's when Pearl and Nash arrive looking for the Morah blood too but enjoying the fact they've found Angel as well and can get some payback on their old boss.

I'm still not that interested in Pearl and Nash.They still feel like run of the mill lackeys and not big bads.I'm hoping there is something more then just them as the big bads in this series.

Faith watches as Angel and Pearl and Nash go at and she's finally come to a decision.She's going to help Angel get rid of Pearl and Nash and then she's going to use the Morah blood on Angel and make him human.

So very good issue.And all the above helped keep this from suffering from the middle of the arc slow down.Can't wait for next issue.

Also Scott Allie in the letter column raised an interesting point that I wonder more about especially in light of Whistler's appearance in Angel & Faith #1.

I wouldn't say Whistler was manipulating Angel along.It was the Twilight energy manipulating Angel;who's to say it wasn't manipulating Whistler too?


In light of issue 1,I wonder now if Whistler was being manipulated too and didn't even realize it.And now with TPTB cut off from him and being desperate,if he isn't still being manipulated by the ideas Twilight planted?He doesn't know what to do,everything is out of balance and he still thinks what he was shown about Twilight is the right way but doesn't realize that was bad info from the start.
An important point of precisely dating the chronology of these books and thus the entire buffyverse

The pub is showing Arsenal - Blackpool at 7pm, the only time Arsenal have played Blackpool at Arsenal in the last decade is on the 21st August 2010 (which would make sense given that one of the fans is wearing a Nasri shirt, even though he left for Man City (traitor!) at the start of this season), therefore we can say safely that this issue is either set on that day or a day or so either side, hence the notice board. Therefore we have successfully dated the entire buffyverse!

EXCEPT, the 21st of August was a Saturday kick-off, and there are no 7pm kick-offs on a Saturday. And those glasses are meant to be real glasses, and any pub in the area of the Arsenal stadium isn't allowed to serve from real glasses before or after any Arsenal match is either played locally or televised. Thus we can safely say that in the Buffyverse, things are different. My theory is that because Magic has ended Man City no longer have a supply of magic money and Wigan no longer have a supply of magic points and so both got relegated last season, keeping Blackpool up and so due playing Arsenal on a week day fixture which would be at 7pm. Still wouldn't be allowed real glasses though.


Also, loved the fire hydrant reference!
Twilight energy seems a bit of deus ex machina to me....
I think it's meant as less of a deus ex machina and more of a way of exaggerating motivation. Scott keeps making the point that, while Twilight did influence Angel, it was still all his choice. Except for possibly while he was very possessed at the end when he killed Giles.

"How does he still see himself as a positive force in the world as is?"

I would say that he DOESN'T see him self as a force for good. Now more than ever, he seems to see himself as a monster that should be put down. But he is so focused on trying to correct his last big mistake, he's still powering through. However, he is a fatalist in the extreme at this point, saying he deserves a stake through the heart, not a happy ending. Personally, I still feel as though he can BECOME a force for good once more. Redemption is a neverending uphill battle.

I really love Issac's art, with one minor problem I keep having: I think she draws Faith's nose consistently too small. Anyone else notice this?

I really loved Alasdair and really hope he comes back.

I was kind of sad we didn't get a Giles flashback in this issue, but I don't think we should expect them in every issue.

If anyone feels like reading my thoughts, my review is here.
Angel. In a waistcoat. I am a very happy fangirl.
Faith is the change agent in the Buffyverse, and the one through which the Slayer line now runs. Wonder what that all means to the greater story here...
In the very first panel of the issue, there's something disturbing about the content expression of that woman as the vampire sucks her blood. I know there's a lot of complains about the vampires' popularity and outing to the public, but I'm really glad we're going to explore that. I think this something that ought to happen sooner or later. Vampires and demons being nothing but a secret and people around the world being so in denial about it isn't realistic at all. Maggie's reality is taking over and metaphor is disappearing theory is very interesting and true, I can't wait to see where it is all going. Though I suspect we will be dealing with it in the Buffy book.

Was Faith's tone blamey or filled with gratitude when she said that because of Angel and Buffy they won't be having apocalypses? 'Cause that's a very good thing as far as I know: not having apocalypses. I think she was thanking him for it as she seemed to imply he and Buffy could be together as a reward, or was that what Angel thought she said? It's gonna be too much if Faith was thanking Angel for stopping the apocalypse in S8. And they say the Scoobies are the prime kings and queens of denial.

Shallow note: I LOVED seeing Angel and Faith in PJs perhaps not Angel, but shirt and jeans are his home-clothes. Less superheroes, more regular people.

So, the issue is mostly talking about the downside of losing magic. Archmages, witches, slayers, demons all suffering and struggling to live like normal humans. I'm still undecided if that's a bad thing. Is that really worse than having apocalypses and world chaos? So far the loss of magic is only hurting individuals and not in a critical way - but the world is a much safer and better place because of it IMO.

Hee, that was adorably funny, how Faith became the "grown up"! She's everybody's mother hen now. :D

OMG! I didn't recognize Faith in a dress! I thought she was a different woman until Angel pointed out that he, too, couldn't recognize her in a dress! Ha!!

Hmmm, I'm not so keen on Faith going behind Angel's back and making decisions for him. She wants to make him human for different reasons, not all in Angel's favor. I'm gonna wait and see how this turns out before making judgments.
Didn't really appreciate the having to man up line. But otherwise this issue holds onto the strong start issues one and two made! Awesome!
My only problem is how much slack Faith is cutting Angel about the whole Twilight thing. He wasn't acting as some mindless tool, he even admits that he was aware of what he was doing. That is not to say that he wasn't manipulated by outside forces, but manipulation is not mind control. But overall a good issue.
Another great issue. I find myself way more invested on this side than the other at the moment. Just so much going on to love.
Giles is getting mega amounts of attention as the focus so far remains on bringing him back, which it should, imho, verse without Giles needs the fire back. Now we have Faith wanting to make Angel human. As much as I have never liked or trusted Faith, right now, I am kinda loving her. In fact, her thoughts concerning Angel pretty much mirror my thoughts concerning Angel. He really has paid enough. He and Buffy both. It appears as if Faith has moved into the role that Spike played to Buffy for the last couple of years.
Still loving the story but Faith's characterization seems a bit off to me in this issue.
Probably my least favorite issue so far, but only because not too much happened. I think Buffyfanatic called it the "Middle of the story lag" above, and I agree. That said, still entertaining enough. I am wondering what Faith meant at the end of the issue; I am assuming she meant get rid of the monster by using the Mora blood on Angel, rather than staking him. My question is, does the demon die if the body lives? It was never really made clear in "I Will Remember You" if the demon inside Angel was gone when he became alive again. Especially now that the demon has nowhere to go, as it is cut off from any hell dimension. I guess I'm getting way too into the philosophy of it all though...
Sparticus - Arsenal actually played Blackpool twice in the 2010-11 season. In the first game, Arsenal won 6-0. Still an afternoon game, not evening, though. Before that, their last game was a 1999 cup tie.

I liked the issue, but kind of wish Christos could limit himself to no more than one Faith's-boobs joke per issue. Too much in that line starts to feel a bit crass, especially if there aren't any parallel jokes about Angel's anatomy...

Sparticus - Arsenal actually played Blackpool twice in the 2010-11 season. In the first game, Arsenal won 6-0. Still an afternoon game, not evening, though. Before that, their last game was a 1999 cup tie.


This is of course true, but the second game was Blackpool - Arsenal as it was at Bloomfield Road, not at the Emirates.

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