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January 13 2012

(SPOILER) Dark Horse's Scott Allie talks about Buffy's big changes. Find out what will happen as a result of the revelations in Buffy Season 9 #5.

She doesn't know. Fabulous. Perhaps there is an opportunity to...research the matter. Maybe a list of male party attendees. Presumably all friends of the apt-mates. Or find out who left their belt. Or not... because who would care who the father of their child might be.
Always good to hear Scott's thoughts.

1)This seems to confirm what I suspected about the circumstances of things coming up.

2)This also seems to confirm that Buffy got knocked up at the party in issue 1 and adds weight IMO that it's the neighbor Heinrich.That's what Scott thinks will upset people.That it was due to druken sex that Buffy is blacked out on and she doesn't know who the father is.
The hacked-off arm cover must have put things in perspective for me because I'm now moderately looking forward to Buffy as a mom, while at first I really wasn't.

I also find a bit amusing that Scott says they were surprised fans anticipated a pregnancy storyline. I think this might explain why they put #8 alt cover out earlier: to make us think those speculations were off and still be surprised in #5.
I think this interview also implicitly answers the question raised most recently in the issue discussion thread, as well.
I can see why this is going to cause anger. Worth remembering:

1) Buffy has only just found out she's pregnant. So we can probably assume she'll run through the "what do I do?" options and try and find out who the father could be. Let's not get upset about that.

2) Smart brilliant clever people do stupid things. This is kinda the point of Buffy. She's this great wonderful brave person who is still a stupid human. She blacked out. We don't know the details. As Scott says, to say she wouldn't do it, elevates her into the super human realm where she can do no wrong, which isn't Buffy.


Now, with that outta the way, I think Heinrich is too obvious. We're being led that way, so probably not.
I also find a bit amusing that Scott says they were surprised fans anticipated a pregnancy storyline.


To be fair, fans come with so many different theories that one of them is bound to stick. But I mean really, Dark Horse's soliciation info were a dead giveaway.
I nailed that she was pregnant AND that the father would be anonymous for the foreseeable future from the jump (over no small amount of criticism for both predictions). I think these guys may just not be quite the mystery authors they think they are. Simon's right, there was basically a banner plane flying around every month in solicitation that said "YO DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKED BABIES..."
I think a lot of ups figured Buffy's was going to be pregant from Scott's reactions last summer when asked about it in interviews.His surprised reaction.This was back in July.

Hell,I'll bring this over again from the issue 5. thread.It's from the Slayalive Q/A for Buffy # 33 in March of 2010.lol

http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/248-SA20-Scott-Allie-Q-amp-A-for-33-March-10?p=1783#post1783

54. lostsoul: Some fans around the internet are thinking that Buffy may get pregnant. Can you please put my worries to rest that she will not?

Scott Allie: What, you mean ever?

Just the very nature of fandom means that anything and everything will be thought up and speculated about ahead of time. It's one of the reasons spoilers don't really worry me, because it isn't about the surprise, it's about the execution.

I'm actually glad they have gone the route of Buffy not knowing who the father is. At least for now. By stating the conception did in fact take place during the party in issue #1 pretty much rules out anyone we know. Glad it isn't Xander or Riley, given their own relationships, or Angel/Spike (though I never really considered either of them. Vampires after all.) Heinrich is clearly meant to be seen as the biggest candidate, but I think that is a red herring and something else will come from that character.

Scott said:
This will help bring her together with some of her nearest and dearest, for sure

I'm glad.


And Xander and Dawn's subplot will start picking up a bit before "Buffy" #10.

Hallelujah!!
I do not believe in the drunken sex baby. It is too much of a push effort on DH side ( re: lopped off arm and drunken sex interview and all of it revealed at the same time ) to believe that's just it. I also don't think there is something wrong with women who get drunk and have unprotected sex - I do however think that in such a case abortion is a valid option and it should be at least considered or discussed or explained why Buffy would think that keeping that baby is a priority at this moment in her life - with a crappy job and no father to support her. I mean, unless Joss is all of a sudden pro-life I am kind of puzzled. If of course it is already too late - this is another story altogether.

[ edited by dorotea on 2012-01-13 16:00 ]
The drunken sex baby believes in you, though. This is why I felt so silly wasting the typing speed on why it wasn't Angel; it was never a legitimate possibility for a bunch of reasons.

And why, btw, is Joss suddenly "all pro-life" is Buffy doesn't get or doesn't consider for an Officially Serious Amount of Time©®™ getting an abortion? "Pro-life" and "pro-choice" are public policy positions that innumerable polls have demonstrated have almost no connection to ethical approval or disapproval of abortion. Buffy could be completely "pro-choice" (i.e. this should be a legal choice) and there would still be nothing unrealistic if, for herself, it's not something she'd ever consider. Give me a scene of Buffy at March for Life, and you can talk about Joss being "all pro-life".
KoC, I am just curious why all the vitriol ? Sorry, you seem to be especially poignant when talking to me. Can't we just be friends ? :) LOL Please be less stressed over my theories - they are just as legit speculations as any of yours. And whether the drunken alcohol soaked pregnancy should be a welcome development or not remains to be seen. I am just saying that I don't normally believe in these.
That wasn't vitriol. I'm just genuinely stunned at the idea that any character -- or person -- that doesn't want to get an abortion is, per se politically pro-life and that a story in which that's the case becomes pro-life agitprop.

And, that said, I also didn't recall any mention of how vitally important it was for Buffy to consider an abortion in your comments yesterday or the day before when you had a much more certain opinion of who the father was, so there is a legitimate question about how much of the sudden interest in the ideological correctness of the comic on the subject of abortion has to do with the father now being anonymous.
I would actually be pretty surprised to if Buffy had an abortion. I have never heard her stance on the issue (we try not to talk about religion and politics), but I imagine she is Pro Choice while being Pro Child in her own personal choice. Will all of the death she has seen, I can't imagine her not welcoming new life, however inconvenient.
Jelly, I would say that's probably very likely. Not only is probably the most pluralist position on abortion (in the US at least), it's also the most uncontroversial. And since this is not actually a story arc about having an in-story textual policy argument about abortion, uncontroversial is probably what they're going to go for on that subject.
Having the baby, not having the baby. Keeping the baby, not keeping the baby. Considering any of these options doesn't really presume anything except that it's an unplanned pregnancy and these are the options.

I'd like to see the tone of this conversation improve, please.
Has a comic book ever done a storyline involving abortion?
Probably not, as I doubt there's much market research out there to suggest it would sell many comics. The fandom is probably going to be happier just collectively moving on from the entire premise, because barring some truly, truly surprising divergence from the conventional wisdom on marketable storytelling and Joss decides he wants every conversation ever had about this franchise to be about one subject only again, it's not going to come up with more than a deferential nod to the fact that the option exists and is legal.
I was just saying that conceiving while drunk might affect baby's health severely. It is known. Therefore it might be a problematic potentially dangerous situation. Plus whatever Buffy's personal stand on abortion is, in a story like they are planning to tell is is, IMHO, important to define these lines. Unless it is OK with everybody to see a baby with Down syndrome or alcohol induced complication brought up by a feminist icon who got knocked up while drunk and does not even know who the father is.
Drinking after conception/during gestation surely (fetal alcohol syndrome), but I'm not aware of anything about drinking during conception (which certainly would affect a huge number of us :)). Also, I am certain that there have been comics about abortion, just maybe not from the big publishers. Indie comics deal with all kinds of topics.
What if the jerk that took advantage of a black-out drunk Buffy had some transmissible or hereditary disease? Wouldn't Buffy be concerned for baby's health?
I can't see how this won't be addressed. Surely if not Buffy someone (Spike, Xander, Dawn) will ask if she's keeping the baby. And then we'll find out if she is or not and her motives or lack of.
Sex while drunk which leads to conception seems very unlikely to lead to fetal alcohol syndrome. Conception might not be immediate, and then there's a week or so before implantation. Continuing to drink is a whole other issue.

Also checking my rulebook "Appropriate Behavior For Feminist Icons" I am totally ok with Buffy getting knocked up while drunk. I bet she knows who the father is, but I wouldn't think less of her if she didn't. If feminism dictated she could only act in full wisdom at all times she wouldn't be a feminist icon. She'd be a stereotype. She certainly would not have had sex with two vampires and Parker.
Sparticus, here's how that conversation might or will go --

CHARACTER (whoever you deem most likely to bring it up): Buffy, had you considered... the alternative?
BUFFY: No.
CHARACTER: Well, you're a little viking! First things first. All right, we have to get you healthy. You need prenatal vitamins. Incidentally, they do incredible things for your nails, so that's a plus.

See what I did there? :)
What if the jerk that took advantage of a black-out drunk Buffy had some transmissible or hereditary disease? Wouldn't Buffy be concerned for baby's health?


This assumes that she didn't take advantage of him or that they weren't both blackout drunk and other possibilities (oh boy, do I look forward to where those points lead the discussion ;)).
We know, of course, that Nikki Wood, the Slayer immediately preceding Buffy, also had a child. In light of Buffy's pregnancy, will we be learning more of Nikki's story?


I have a problem with the first part of this question.

When one slayer dies, another slayer is called. Nikki Wood died in 1977. Buffy wasn't called until ... what, 1996? .... and she wasn't even born until 1981.

There had to be one, if not several, slayers to bridge the gap between Nikki and Buffy.
"Shut the front door" Buffy pregant I must of missed that, but i do remember her waking up from a drunken night, reminds me of how Angel and Darla happened, well if she keeps it she will know the joy and heartache that Angel had with Connor.
Appropriate behavior ain't a problem for me. But I sure want to see some justification to Buffy's decision of not considering that other option - because, frankly, otherwise it is all 'life is sacred, and your body is not yours to control' story. It is one thing to have a love child alone and keep it because of sentimental reasons, quite another to get drunken sex with random stranger and decide that the seed is more important than your life.
I've gone over the facts of both law and physiology on other sites with regard to the difference between alcohol-induced amnesia and alcohol-induced incapacity, it usually doesn't sway anyone. Long term, I just hope people remember that Joss not bringing up a consent question in the story can be interpreted as a consent answer in and of itself.
I don't really think its a feminist issue. Any idiot that gets so drunk that they completely black out and have unprotected sex somewhere in the middle has seriously fucked up, male or female. Not to sound all judgemental, it of course could happen to anyone, I'm just saying that was a really bad call on a really bad day. And I would imagine that anyone would definitely consider the options of their resulting pregancy, even if just for a fleeting moment.

But for some reason, I have a feeling they'll pull Buffy out of that position and make it so she was really magically drugged, or something. Just a hunch.
And yes, menomegirl, I think that math is way off.
KingofCretins-It might help if Joss wouldn't do storylines where consent issues are in question.
I don't see how it applies -- he can't tell stories in the same setting where rape occurs and where drunken consensual sex also occurs?

I've said before, I get the optics issues here, but I just think people should content themselves with the fact that they can already conclude based on the fact that the issue never once came up in the context of this party that Buffy's own situation was not one of nonconsensual sex. That fact doesn't belittle the fact that it happens. It just didn't happen this time.
True, I would think in the past 5 issues, the nonconsensual issue would've been addressed a bit differently, if there was one. It doesn't seem to be on Buffy's mind.

Then again, it seems like Buffy herself doesn't have a clue as to whether it was consensual or not so who knows at this point. It's pretty much a gigantic mess. A gigantic, yet oddly compelling mess.
I was brought up in the belief that conception in drunk condition is dangerous because alcohol can damage future baby's mental and physical capabilities. Where I live, conceiving a baby in the drunk state is regarded as utter irresponsibility.

Of course, I understand that it's genre story and we are supposed to believe that Buffy's slayer constitution can protect her baby from alcohol damage. But it still disturbs me.

It disturbs me much more than if it was Angel's post-space-frak baby (and I'm a Spuffy shipper). Because the space-frak was a genre story, it happened on another, heightened narrative level. And this situation looks plain tacky.

I'm 99% sure Heinrich is the daddy.
I am 99% sure Heinrich is a 90 year old with a long white beard, and the baby is Willow's. ;) Otherwise the witch would not be leaving in such a hurry before even learning of the scandalous result of their 'making a naughty'. Seriously, I think Allie did a very good job in muddling the waters once more - but he did say 'could have gotten' not 'have gotten'. Counting all the other inconsistencies (having a morning sickness a week or two after sex and having a special fairy deliver a message ) I am still sitting on the fence and waiting it to turn out to be Angel's baby.

[ edited by dorotea on 2012-01-13 18:03 ]
I hope you brought a nice cushion up unto the fence with you, because you're going to be up there quite a while. Even if vampire hadn't ruled it out, and elephant pregnancy hadn't ruled it out, the fact that it's now being explicitly acknowledged she got pregnant in 9.01 should.
King, some forum admin or another asked for the tone of the discussion to be nicer, did they not? I ask you as well, to refrain from personally attacking me. <3
Agree, post Angel space sex pregnancy would've been a tad more responsible than this. Just a tad, though.
I was brought up in the belief that conception in drunk condition is dangerous because alcohol can damage future baby's mental and physical capabilities. Where I live, conceiving a baby in the drunk state is regarded as utter irresponsibility.


It's certainly irresponsible, but being drunk during conception doesn't affect the development of a child blastocyst that may not even actually be conceived or implanted yet. Add to that that conception can take place any time between ~30 minutes and 5 days after intercourse.

And, yes, let's all play nice, please :).
In what way were you personally attacked? Disagreeing with your theory about Angel being the father (he isn't) is not a personally attack, nor is theorizing that the wait on your proverbial fence could be a long one. I could just as easily theorize that the request to lower the tone referred to continually trying to brand any disagreement with you as a personal attack.
As far as I'm concerned you're both on thin ice at the moment. Take whatever your personal disagreement is elsewhere.
Ok, you two (dorotea & KingofCretins), let's cool it for now. Take it to email if you want to discuss further for the time being.
Well i definitely disagree with Scott and Joss on this one. There is something seriously wrong with getting pregnant while you are so drunk that you don't even remember your lover.
Don't care if you are male or female, it's plain tacky and hiv(+legion of other diseases) are no joke.
I expected better from Buffy and i suspect that her mother would feel the same way were she still alive. Joyce would still love and support her daughter but disappointed none the less.

As to who the father is? Nothing has changed except who the father is has been given more importance. Still doubt very much it will be Heinreich, they could have just as easily come out and say it, no need to drag it out since it being Heinreich would hold no importance. But the fact that they are playing with it means it does hold some importance. The potential fathers are Riley,Andrew,Heinreich,Xander and Spike. Outside all of those most give the least odds to Spike because he's a vampire. That's what makes it funny, even Spike would not consider himself the potential father. Eventually i do think it will be revealed but not for a while. Now Spike and her friends will show them how much they unconditionally love her. And we already have confirmation of Spike doing just that. Looking out for her, wanting to keep her save,ect. As for why i don't think it's Heinreich the nobody, simple someday that child will want to know who his/her father is and Buffy's awkward answer won't cut it. But even then, i still believe that even subconscious Buffy would only sleep with someone she truly desires(and smart enough to only have unprotected sex with Spike.). I mean Buffy knew she was gonna party hard that night so i assume she would be smart enough to realize the potential of having sex that night too thus have condoms lying around or being on the pill. Very difficult to imagine both extremely drunk and not remembering safety. The only way i can see her having unprotected sex is with Spike, because he's sterile and disease free.
Maybe i'm wrong and Joss is simply trying to tell a story on how normal Buffy is but i have just never seen her as normal so.
As for when/how it happened, i'm guessing Spike and Buffy did have sex on party night but it was only "activated" when Severin was killing Buffy and Spike at the same time when he was zapping them with his energy beams. That fight scene just felt all kinds of wrong so i have to believe that there was a purpose to it.
But the entire point of Buffy is that she's a normal girl dropped into the abnormal situation of being the slayer. She's supposed to be thought of as normal, but different. No?
I don't think we know Scott and Joss' take on this yet, nor does the action in every story represent the POV of the author, so it's at best extreme extrapolation based solely on presumption about the text. Give them some credit, they will show the consequences; this is the show that gave us "I slept with my boyfriend and now he's evil." if you'll recall. Even superheroes f*ck up, wasn't that a major theme of later seasons? As far as extremely drunk and forgetting about safety, those two shacked up years ago. Ahem, metaphorically speaking.
Spike having had sex with Buffy is wildly inconsistent with how he is characterized elsewhere this season, though. A poster on another site rightly observed that both his ambivalence to her flirting at the door before the party and (IMO, this is the key one) his distant admiration/resignation/she deserves normal attitude he discusses with Koh are not consistent with someone trying to make sense of a recent drunken hook-up that they also never talked about.
Actually, I could see his talk about how she deserves a normal life exactly as his reaction to and way of making sense of a drunken hook up and trying to put it behind him.

ETA: In a "yeah, okay, that was not what needed to happen. So, I'll pivot, and be better for her" sort of way.

[ edited by The One True b!X on 2012-01-13 19:36 ]
I do not see any of the characters mentioned as being "daddy." I always think in terms of emotuional resonance, and some unknown seems "unresonant" to me; in fact, it is just a means to a story telling end. I am 100% certain it is not Spike; he would not take advantage of her. Nor is it Andrew. I cannot see Riley either drunk or taking advantage. Thuis, Heinriech or Xander. Now, Heinreich seems off to me. So, consider it being Xander (which I sure hope it is not)- I have a feeling down the road Dawn will be gone, since the Key seems needed. And I suspect Dander is not long for the world, as they seem to be having problems. Xander makes sense from that perspective. ALso, while I know there is a growing consensus it cannot be Angel, I am not yet convinced.

But I also find the pregnancy problematic as text designed to bring hte story forward. In and of itself, so what? But the how is important- again, there is lack of consent. That is not really "feminist" in orientation. But taking control of your life is; this is why Buffy will not ever come close to considering an abortion. She will simply deal, as she always has.
@Zeitgeist, we do know their take on this. It was right there in the article:

If the objection is that this couldn't or shouldn't happen to Buffy, it seems to me that that objection comes from the idea that there's something wrong with women to whom this does happen, that it is something beneath Buffy herself, and the fact that Joss and Sierra [Hahn, editor] and Andrew and I disagree with that is the reason why we think this is a viable storyline for Buffy.
"Something wrong with women to whom this does happen" ≠ "something wrong with it happening".
Ah yes, thank you.
Vergil - Misunderstood the specific point you were making. Having read the article fully vs. skimming and re-read your comment, I see what you were saying. We know their POV on the situation, we still don't know their take on the story (this may be a fine distinction, I grant you). Regardless, things like this happen to everyday people and Buffy is everyday people + superpowers. Buffy has made a lot of bad choices, many of them sober, so some of the reaction to this is odd to me. Certainly the magnitude of impact this choice has is bigger, but still... I don't expect this to be consequence free (and Scott Allie says as much in the article).
I think they want us to think it's Xander's, which is probably why it isn't.
I'm not going to speculate about the identity of the father, although I do think it would be a good thing — for a whole host of reasons — for Buffy to figure that out if she decides to carry the child to term.

However, I'm curious why her roommate Tumble isn't on anyone's short list of possible babydaddies above. I mean, if Joss is getting his Dickens on, the name alone would be a dead giveaway. Right?
As a young woman who has seen this happen to several girls I feel really bad for Buffy. She must be terrified and confused, she is most likely slut-shamming herself which is really sad. Great people make really bad mistakes and to be honest this is a common mistake in lots of college aged women.

In regards to paternity speculation I would rather it be a random person (like Heinreich) so the story focuses more on her stuggles than any sort of ship sinking (the father being Xander) All in all I am waiting to see what Joss and co has in store before I start jumping to conclusions.

[ edited by Stryker on 2012-01-13 23:25 ]
Or maybe because we always expect the unexpected, the only truly unexpected thing they can do is make it Xander.

Ahh, the dangers of constantly subverting expectations.
You gotta think from the male's perspective. Which one of these guys would sleep with Buffy in a blackout drunk state (unless they were just as drunk). I highly highly doubt it's anyone that we know cares about her as much as they do. Spike (vampire I know but just making the point that he wouldn't do it), Xander, Riley, none of these guys would do it they're too good and blackout drunk is only one reason why they would not have slept with her that night. (Sam, Dawn, etc...) so it's gotta be somebody new. And again, Scott did say there would be a new love interest. Soooooo my big guess is Heinrich.


And I love what Scott already said about Spike how he told Buffy not to be in the fight (where she ultimately loses errrrr arm). That shows that e is gonna sk the Spike thing and play the daddy role, which I love.

I really like this season and all of this babies and arms and baby daddy drama and willow. But we know so much already I can't imagine what they have in store that is really going to shock us. Gonna be big though
I really don't expect it to end up being Xander. I'm really hoping they don't go there. I would lose all respect for the character-and probably for Buffy too, drunk or no.
You don't know the reasoning behind it, if it was Xander, though.
Keep in mind that "black out" and "pass out" are not the same thing. At a certain point of intoxication, someone may lose the ability to form new memories. The become like the guy in Memento. That doesn't mean they are incapacitated and unable to consent; they just won't remember what they were doing later. And there is no reason anybody with them would realize that is the case.

The next shred of evidence that Buffy was "A Trip to the Dentist"-like incapacitated, such that she could not consent, will be the first. Not one panel of 9.01 implies she got that far in the bag.
I long ago learned that cheating is a symptom (a quite destructive one) rather than a cause, so I can't lose all respect for either of them without back story if that's the case. Honestly, I don't think it will be Xander. It just strikes me the, "it won't be Xander" thing has become terribly trite. It is in fact, the only outcome I expect.

[ edited by azzers on 2012-01-14 01:09 ]
Buffy was inspired by Kitty Pryde.And of course Kitty was a major figure in Joss's Astonishing X-Men run.
I'm simply saying that if there was a girl I cared about that was clearly drunk, wether it was black out pass out or whatever, it would be very hard for me to have sex with them knowing they weren't 100% in the right state of mind. That's why I don't think it's someone we know because I don't think any of the guys that she's close with would do that with her. I don't for a second think it wasn't consensual I'm sure she wanted it but I think it's someone that doesn't know her that well. The people that know her know drunk Buffy isn't pretty
Unless Xander (or Spike or Riley) was also flat-out, black-out drunk, he would have *never* taken advantage of Buffy in her extremely intoxicated state.

I don't lose respect for Buffy at all for getting drunk and having sex. But I am very concerned that she *was* taken advantage of, I'm worried about diseases that can happen after unprotected sex.

When I say there is no good scenario surrounding Buffy's becoming pregnant this way I'm not judging Buffy at all, I'm not making a moral declaration. I'm just saying that this situation is a very hard one to be in when you have a low-wage job, can't afford your own apartment, etc. So when I add the circumstances of the conception to Buffy's economic position, my heart just breaks for Buffy and I find it impossible to be happy about what is going on now in her life.
Has anyone seen the movie fabulous 1992 sports romance "The Cutting Edge"? For those that have, I'll ask a question under invisible --



I kind of want a frame of reference for the kind of drunk that people are thinking is the so very drunk that none of the guys that know her would have ever considered sleeping with her. In legal terms, the kind of drunk/incapacitated it actually takes is what we saw Sarah Michelle Gellar play in "Reptile Boy" or Kristen Bell play in "Veronica Mars" at various points. If you notice that those instances involved an actual date rape drug, that's not an accident -- the intoxication should be of such a scope it brings about the same state. It's not the cause of the incapacity that makes it rape, after all, but the mental state that it creates.
Buffy could of used protection and still gotten pregnant/any potential STD. Accidents happen even when you are trying to be safe. But any potential Pro Abstinence and pro life will really get some agitated :p

I'm sure the issues will be discussed in some ways because they are important to any potential real world correlation. It probably won't be major in the grand scheme of things though...

Perhaps the sex with the guy might be the reason she doesn't remember...I don't mean mystical but a psychological and/or emotional blackout. Say if she had a "connection" with Xander where he confesses that a part of him will always love Buffy and he sometimes doubts not going for it when he had the chance last year. Perhaps she took advantage of him. Hurting Dawn and just causing chaos in any potential "family" come together.

Or perhaps she had sex with a stranger because he or the moment reminded her of someone else. The baby daddy could be unimportant even if the circumstances and consequences are major...
I did not come up with this - saw it in the fandom by accident, but... Master's supposed full name is Heinrich Joseph Nest. Speak of a truly old guy. Kind of a recluse. Truly , truly old. Look me in the eye and tell me they are serious...
Oh yeah Heinrich is the masters name..... And it's not like that can be a coincidence like their names aren't Bob
When did Allie say we were getting a new love interest? I thought Buffy would have her hands full with everything for her to think about romantic relationships...unless later on in the season she finds the father and they become close.

I'm not happy with the reveal that we do not know who the father is and will not know for sometime. But I do not view Buffy badly for this at all, because it's a very human thing to do.

I sincerely hope that whoever the father is, he will turn out to be a good guy.

[ edited by Tennyoelf on 2012-01-14 07:22 ]
question,others are also assuming the upcoming cover was a decoy correct?

and although i wasn't thrilled about the current storyline it will be cool to think that she will live on through her child.
Vergil said:

As for when/how it happened, i'm guessing Spike and Buffy did have sex on party night but it was only "activated" when Severin was killing Buffy and Spike at the same time when he was zapping them with his energy beams. That fight scene just felt all kinds of wrong so i have to believe that there was a purpose to it.


Actually, that's a brilliant theory. I too think there was a purpose to that fight scene. Something of importance happened there. It's possible that Spike's cold dead seed ain't so cold and dead anymore.

Aw, they'll make a beautiful baby together. :)
Not saying I thinks it's Xander, but I wouldn't go judging people who've got startlingly drunk and ended up sleeping together. Because that's a lot of people.
Thank you, menomegirl for commenting on the most important thing stated in this article! There is no way Nikki Wood was the Slayer immediately before Buffy. I am surprised (but not really) that Scott did not catch and comment on this mistake. 20 years without a Slayer? Really?
This season whilst enjoyable for me is a bit more predictable than previous ones and it's slightly easier to see patterns developing. I'm guessing that Buffy had consensual sex with X but something delibrately happened afterwards to cause her to forget. As to whether this was a willing choice or not, is a different kettle of fish. Given the history of consent in the Buffyverse and how it's been dealt with by the writers, I would guess that it probably it isn't.

So if that's the case one must wonder, in the storyline who benefits from Buffy being pregnant and her not knowing who the father is?
I wouldn't say it's predictable so much as natural progression. It's the difference between say, Let The Right One In and American Horror Story
Gossi, I would only be upset with Xander if he was relatively sober enough to see that Buffy herself was pretty much out of her mind while under the influence of alcohol.

As long as Buffy doesn't remember what happened the issue of consent has to be on the table. For all Buffy knows, she was roofied and that's how she got pregnant.

From what I've seen of the boards fans are not judging Buffy, they're expressing legitimate concern for her and worry over whether or not she consented to have sex in the first place.
@Simon, who benefits - ? Mostly the writers team. This plot can go on for entire season. Then we find out Master is still unalive, because the Seed was not broken when Angel put a fist through his head. And he tempered with Buffy's mind, then sent her red roses. Groan. He is a recluse, lol, and he would be awake at night to call the police at disturbing noises. ;)
Purple man and Jessica Jones classic. Not saying I believe this myself.
The fact fans have legitimate concerns about Buffy is why it's a story worth telling.
From what I've seen of the boards fans are not judging Buffy


If our fandom was better archived then this week's reaction would make an interesting contrast to the fan-judging of Buffy that when on in some quarters back in 2000(?) when she slept with Parker.
I don't think we know Scott and Joss' take on this yet, nor does the action in every story represent the POV of the author, so it's at best extreme extrapolation based solely on presumption about the text. Give them some credit, they will show the consequences...


This. There's just no way in this or any other universe that Joss Whedon is gonna get Buffy Summers pregnant without taking that major transition (for what's obviously his most dearly-beloved character) dead seriously. We're in Act One, for heaven's sake! Speculation is 'fun' but it's not particularly helpful in this regard.

Buffy's pregnancy is the premise of 'Season Nine' -- what matters is how the story proceeds from the premise. Time passing. (The name of the story will be Time / But you must not pronounce its name.') Perspectives changing. Opportunities taken and missed. Choices made, debts met (or succumbed to, or fled from, or...). I'm skeptical about the awesomeness of the story to come, but we should distinguish nervousness about Buffy's predicament (and fury over how often this kind of situation occurs, and why) from any kind of critical perspective on the story and its tellers.

This is what the whole 'what you want, what you need' argument is about: I'm guessing nobody wants Buffy pregnant. (And I'm sure nobody wants her arm hacked off, even in a narrative where Mohra blood is a major plot point?!) 'The thing about magic: there's always consequences.' Pretty much the first law of Whedonesque storytelling right there. Whatever the attractive fantasy, whatever the emotional relationship we might have to the stories, the difficulty and the consequences (and hopefully the Good Guys' survival of them) are the point of the exercise.

Season 8 went off the rails and Season 9 ain't perfect but, as ever, there's some evidence that Joss Whedon knows what he's doing. (And yes: knows the consent laws regarding drunkenness.) This arc was the throat-clearing and table-setting. Now the feast! Or just cookies. Cookies, anyone? I'd eat a cookie.

[ edited by waxbanks on 2012-01-14 16:58 ]
One of the members at my other board, as did someone earlier here, stated that the anonymous father makes a perfect plot point for having this Buffy Pregnant and not having to deal with who the father is. It certainly is the case for the story at this point. The writers can create the story without making "the father" important right now. Later on, it could be a huge plot point; right now we can have Buffy having to learn how to live with the consequences of her choices. There is no question that Buffy made the choice to drink excessively and put herself in the "life of the party drunk" - we don't judge the morality of her having sex, but what we can say is that she made that choice to drink and to keep drinking. Unless, this changes, which IMO, would detract from the emotional impact for the characters and the readers - she is responsible for putting herself in these circumstances. If someone took advantage of her, legally or not, and unless they were equally in the same state of drunkenness and incapacitated mentally, from my POV, they are the ones who would be subject to moral and ethical judgements.

As for the primary series characters, in their current status and characterization, I don't believe any of them would take advantage of Buffy under these circumstances. We are not shown that any of them are extremely intoxicated. There is only one instance, shouted out by someone while Buffy is juggling that is connected to Buffy and has a sexual connotation - it is someone shouting out "naked" which is really creepy.

I always thought this was the perfect candidate - but as a friend of mind pointed out to me - that character is not shown speaking. So the idea of a random or anonymous person/father is emphasis again.

The questions surround "consent" are extremely important if this pregnancy story is going to include Buffy being violated, but from the response shown thus far by Buffy, I suspect that what we are suppose to focus on and care about at this point is the personal life and choices that Buffy has to make.

If what the fairy in her dreamscape tells her is true, that events in her dream have very little to do with her and will be way beyond her - The father may become extremely important. If the Espenson story was planned as a huge foreshadow of the future events and Buffy's pregnancy - Spike will play a very important role as support for Buffy. Dawn will also be a big support system for her, as will all her friends. True friends would gather around Buffy and be nothing but supporters for whatever decision she would make about this pregnancy.

No question about it, becoming pregnant under this circumstance, if the anonymous father party drunk scenario holds out, Sucks big time. But I would also love that Buffy who has always been so much forced to deal with killing and deaths and destruction would be able to become a symbol of creating life.
I brought it up yesterday in the #5 discussion thread, but since this one is newer and I'm interested to hear what others have to say (thanks everyone who responded to me today/yesterday); have we ever gotten confirmation that Buffy knows of Connor's existence in either the comic or the show? She knew specifically of things that happened in "Angel's world" post-Connor, like for example Spike coming back, but I don't recall ever seeing anything on this...
@Archon - I replied on another thread, but I can repeat it here. Buffy can be aware of Connor's existence only if Spike told her. On IDW comics Spike and Connor were friends and Spike knows that Connor is Angel's son.

Otherwise, no. Vail's spell deleted all memories about Connor. So even in Willow told Buffy about him in season 7, they both have forgotten their conversation. On AtS season 5 Orlon's window restored the memories of those who were present in the room with Vail (Connor, Wesley, Fred's memory in Illyria's brain).

As to Buffy knowing that Spike was back, Andrew could tell her. Andrew knew about Spike but he didn't know about Connor.

[ edited by Moscow Watcher on 2012-01-15 14:33 ]

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