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January 28 2004

Herc's seen the new Angel (S5x11). The Whedonesque discussion thread for 'Damage'.

And so have I. And that was possibly the best episode ever. I think. (I don't have a 'best of Angel' list, but they'd probably mostly be S1) I know I haven't enjoyed an episode as much as I enojoyed this one in a long time.
Brilliant episode. And probably some of the best dialogue the show has ever seen.
dude, that episode rocked!! can i just say how much i love andrew?? he always makes me laugh. loved the updates on the scattered scoobie gang. dialogue was much better than it has been in previous episodes. i'm also enjoying the exploration of the darkness that has invaded the core crew since they took over wolfram and hart. seems like fred may be the only voice of reason left (her calling out gunn on his "work the system" comment. i'm excited to see what happens next.
Best Episode? I'm not to sure about that, it was a great episode and all, but i think it's a tad bit too early to tack on the best episode title don't you think? I thought it was a great episode but their was nothing in it(aside from Andrew's speech at the end) that stood out as remember me moments. It might take a few rewatches but I'm not to sure about it yet.
Agreed. One of the strongest, if not the strongest episode of the season. It really looks like the show is trying to have it both ways in regard to telling stand alone stories while also have a central theme that runs through the season.
I can't tell you how good it was to see a Slayer in action and to see Andrew. If the final season of Buffy had any saving grace, it was Andrew. The guy is just funny. I know I'd be up for a Slayer-quest kind of spin-off if it featured Mr. Lenk.
Agreed. A very very strong episode. I loved Angel and Spike at the end, the part about how they used to be helpless victims.. once upon a time. Really tugged at the heart strings. Also, YAY ANDREW! Great dialogue with everyone and I loved the updates on all the various scoobies. Definitely brought back memories.
the only problem is, nothing happened. every single episode has been an illusion of moving forward when it never actually does. i REALLY hope next ep is a turning point
I also thought it was the best episode of the season so far. Here's hoping they get better and better. It's turning out to be one helluva season. I loved the girl who played the Slayer. I thought she did a great job where she was kind of scary but you really felt bad for her. I also loved when Andrew pulled the about face and claimed her as their own and then all the slayers showed up. I also liked it when he threw it in Angel's face that the order came directly from Buffy because they can't trust them because they now work for Wolfram and Hart. I really enjoyed the final scene between Angel and Spike because it showed even more how much they are alike. And Andrew was just plain fun and refreshing. I just loved how he greeted Spike!!
Seeing a bunch of those girls come out of nowhere in heels was just humorous. I'm sorry, but I did not get the feeling that they had power. Any of them. They should have brought atleast an original Potential or two.

Otherwise, I enjoyed the episode. I hope this isn't the last we've seen of Dana. Or the Slayers.
ME writers should continue employing Andrew as the witless foil...trying to pose him as a double-crossing Watcher is streching things a bit...It is funny, I thought Andrew was hilarious on BtVS but I found this episode would have been just as great without him...And as a matter of fact, it would have been much better (in my opinion) to have cast some other "Sunnydale Alum" for this visit (i.e. Xander Harris, Rupert Giles, or even Willow would have made more sense) Anyway, Andrew aside, I liked this episode alot....
You think maybe the order really didn't come from Buffy - remember how her and Giles relationship was strained toward the end ..... a whole bunch of what if's - including was Wes really talking to Giles or perhaps a Giles-borg and the pondering continues ...... hmmmmm.....
Hee - loved the Andrew/Doctor Who comparison!! It's not just the clothes - he also has the blond locks of a young Peter Davison.
I loved this episode, and agree it was the best this season so far. I have to admit, I just hate Angel in Wolfram and Heart. And the worst part is, Angel seems to hate himself more and more, too. I love that they're finally starting to deal with this issue.

I hated Andrew in Buffy, and I actually liked him here. Amazing.

Best part, in the beginning, the nurse is doing a crossword and asks the doctor for a seven letter word, ending in "y," for "mellifluous"?

I thought this episode was one of the best this season (I'm a Wes guy so I liked Lineage a whole lot too). The scene with Andrew double-crossing Wolfram & Hart, the whole "orders from Buffy" / "nobody trusts you anymore" was a surprise (although I agree with simpleba that having a different scoobie deliver the news would have had a greater impact since Andrew never knew Angel). Its too bad Buffy won't be dropping by LA anytime soon/ever.
The last scene was probably one of the best scenes the show has ever shot. Angel and Spike talking about their past, evil, and redemption was great. I felt like you could really envision these guys as being really old.
As a side note, I thought it was pretty funny when Spike told Angel he was looking old, because I don't know if anyone else has noticed but Ol' David definately looks older this season than he did in the previous 4.
agreed it was very good. Not sure if it's the best but it was good. Andrew trumping Angel, the slayers slipping out from the shadows to back him up. A slam dunk ending.
Amazing. I've been so busy that it's been months since I last posted but this one moved me so much I had to make the time! I enjoyed this episode from start to finish and in my opinion, the best this season by far. It was great finding out where the "Sunnydale Alum" are and I agree that if one of the core four (besides Buffy) made the appearance instead of Andrew it would have been a really riveting episode, especially if someone like Willow said the line, "No one in our camp trusts you...". But Andrew is fantastic, I truly love the character. He makes me laugh and it was so good to see him again. "Spike, you've returned to us like Gandalf the White." LOL.
One quibble: All that talk of a psycho slayer and not one mention of Faith? I mean, it's not like Angel hasn't dealt with this kinda thing before....
How I would have rewritten the ending. When Andrew pulled his trump card that he wasn't alone, the other slayers should have hit W&H's topnotch security team and some of the AI gang with a swift but levelled hand. Where it would be clear that in a surprise attack, Angel's resources are no match for a dozen slayers. It would have added the needed punch in this episode to make it one of the best. As it is, the ending was just kinda cool, and doesn't quite match better episodes both in Angel and Buffy. I mean this episode may make it in the top fifty of all time Whedonesque tales, but I wouldn't personally put it in the top ten. In fact, except for perhaps "Room w/a Vu" (certainly the best Cordelia episode EVER) and maybe the one where Gunn lost his sister, I can't think of many Angel episodes I'd even consider for the top ten.

Tonight's episode was fascinating. It was wonderful to see Andrew again. I didn't think it would be that big of a deal, but about halfway through I found myself hoping he'd become a more permanent fixture, and in the Endgame I was disappointed that he was leaving. However, it became clear in the first five minutes of tonight's episode that because we're looking at this from Angel's perspective now and not Buffy's, that they will by necessity be approaching the Slayer phenomenon from a unique perspective. The "Slayer Counsel" are good guys, but because Spike and Angel are two (albeit souled) vampires who both work for evil forces (Angel w/W&H and Spike via "Doyle" aka Lindsey), we're finding ourselves rooting for guys who think they're good guys but are really bad guys. This means the Slayer Counsel are good guys but they're also going to be bad guys.

Remember a few episodes back when we thought we met Wesley's father and it turned out he was a robot. The truth was it was entirely convincing to believe Wesley's father would behave as he did up until the very end, because Wesley's position now is as a supporting member of an evil regime. We can see today's Wolfram & Hart as a larger entity mimicking Angel's own past and present. Angelus left a pile of bodies in his wake, and Angel is now that same body with a human soul. However, he's still haunted by what he did when not souled. The Wolfram & Hart entity now has a soul --a conscience-- in the form of Angel Investigations. Gunn, Fred, Lorne and the others work as a team in an effort to bring Wolfram & Hart to a place where it doesn't have to commit evil acts in order to persevere. They want to take this demonic force and make it a force of good.

Thousands of years ago in Whedon's "Buffyverse" this is what happened to an innocent little girl. Three elders of a small tribe took the soul of a demon, and somehow distilled it into a force that possesses women and infuses within them the power that can kill demons without sharing the demonic thirst for evil. Taking evil and making it good. However, this is not always a successful conversion, as can be witnessed in the actions of Dana. She killed with a complete irrelevance to humanity. As Spike said she became one of them, a killer. She crossed that line, and there really is no going back from that.

Narky said nothing happened with this episode but I have to disagree. Both Spike and Angel have been forced through their encounter with Dana to face what they are in a way that hasn't happened before, and I believe this is driving the story forward towards the inevitable conclusion. Angel was given the chance to find out what would happen if W&H surrendered. The answer is not something they can give too soon, but to get there, Angel has to see that when one fights fire with fire, one gets burned.
Yep. A great episode, and possibly the best of the season so far. Dana was very, very Faith-like. And the eppy left me longing to have a Faith update. Did she and Robin break from the scoobies and scoot off to Ohio to the other hellmouth? Would luv to know what they're up to (and darn it, still holding on to hope for a Faith spinoff)... And was also disappointed to see Dana taken away by Andrew and the slayerettes. Wouldn't it be great if she somehow became a series regular... even if it was as an antagonist of the other cast?
If Dana had stayed we wouldn't have got that fantastic ending with Andrew throwing Angel's new position back in his face. I'm personally glad there was no direct physical confrontation between the Slayers and Angel's team. If I remember correctly there was a subtle moment where Angel's guys backed off a little when the bunch of teenage girls came out. That was more than enough for me.

This was such a fantastic episode, and I would seriously consider putting it in the top 10 Angel episodes. It might miss the list, but just barely.
Imagine all those WB suits going: "Lighter. You said it was going to be lighter..."
Great episode, and from an unspoiled perspective, the beginning of what could be a good run of episodes-- #100, and then another DeKnight-Goddard episode after that, followed by a Ben Edlund episode. The one thing of which I'm getting tired is The Recap. Is a minute of "Previously on Angel..." really any worse than a minute of dialogue by series regulars trying to explain the current situation at the beginning of every episode? Maybe so, but it's still getting on my nerves.
Only a few issues - one - why didn't Angel follow the blood like Spike to find her - heck he smelled the fresh blood in Cinco in a drive by. Spike still not able to understand Chinese (I had hope they would give him a little bit more brains at times) - have him say sorry dear but I don't know your mum, or something like that. I also noticed the absence of mentioning Faith or Robin's current location. Also does anyone else have the feeling Andrew will rush back tell Giles Spike is alive and Giles will send a slayer brigade after him.

Loved the final scene between Spike and Angel, it was good to see them kinda share a moment, and glad Lorne got a few more lines this episode and was back working with the gang, Gunn however you know is a setup already he is eating that apple he's been given far to quickly. Must say I also loved Spikes reaction to Andrew and Wes's reaction to Andrew's comment about what Giles has said about him.
I liked everything in this episode except the update that Willow was still with that skank Kennedy.
Fraying said: "Best part, in the beginning, the nurse is doing a crossword and asks the doctor for a seven letter word, ending in "y," for "mellifluous"? Harmony. "

Thanks for clearing that up. I made a note of going back to that to figure out what they said exactly, because I couldn't hear it properly, but I forgot.

For Stakehouse graduates: I noticed there was a very obvious shot of Andrew with a figure of a lion seen over his shoulder.

There were at least three moments where I literally laughed out loud. Which is always a bit freaky when you're on your own. I thought the girl playing the Slayer had more 'natural Slayerness' than any of the damn potentials in BtVS S7 put together. Great casting. (Elsewhere it was suggested she may have been Eliza Dushku's stunt double.)

Loved the idea of Scoobies having a life after S7. Giles is still out there - it warms the cockles of me heart. Whatever they are.

Spike wasn't annoying-in-a-bad-way for a second, he was completely integral to the story - good stuff that.

I like Andrew a lot and I love how he's sort of in between being his old geeky self and a new, more mature Andrew. Growing up. Loved the last bit where he turned quite serious and cold - there was a hint of Rupert Giles there.

I hope they 'cure' Dana and that she might return as a fully fledged Slayer one day.
I really liked this episode. This is prolly the episode where I feel like I can get back into the swing of the show. It did seem like Andrew's place was a little forced, and the thing with the slayers in the end wearing bright colors was kind of odd...

But I did like the end of the episode, both with the slayers and then the afterscene with Spike and Angel. I feel like with this episode, everything's starting to become good again, and back to normal.

I also think that I'm starting to feel like Joss is in the driver's seat of Angel again. Thematically season 5 is very strong, stronger than all the previous seasons, where, although there was an overarching plotline, thematically there wasn't as strong a hold as on Buffy.
A lot of fun moments ("Stronger." "Like nickels?" would be my favorite) but I saw a lot of distracting plot issues... like nobody bothered to tell Angel about the scythe spell? Even if Buffy decided he didn't need to know, wouldn't the Wolfram & Hart psychics etc. have noticed it?? And why did they have to go to Dana's old house? Why not just go back to the police reports and find out where she was found? But still, I enjoyed this episode more than any other this year.
Excellent points gingeriffic. I also was wondering the same thing regarding the scythe spell. I also loved the return of Andrew. The lunch bag and sucking on a juice box, tasting the penny, and "stronger, like nickels?"...very funny.
I had sort of gotten the impression that the Fang Gang DID know about all the Potentials being empowered, but apparently I was wrong. As for reading the police reports about where she'd been found, they stated she turned up naked and bloody, wandering the streets. She WASN'T found by the police, hence all the torture implements and dirty syringes still lying about the place after all those years. No police forensics team ever went over that location.

Oh yeah, almost forgot -- Best episode of the season so far, hands down. And I too would likely find it a spot in the Top 10 eps of Angel ever.
The first time I yelled, "NICE!" was when Spike said, "Sorry, love, I don't speak Chinese," just like he did before he killed the Chinese slayer, when Dana said, I'm sure, exactly the words of the Chinese slayer. I'm loving being able to appreciate all these little shout-outs to the fans.

Also, the switcheroo with Spike first being and then not being the girl's childhood torturer both got a shout from me, as did the LOTR/Gandalf/Frodo comments from Andrew.
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Andrew's line of the Watcher's Council (paraphrasing here) "going all X-Men, sans the weak third act." A little nod to frustrasted screenwriter Joss, mayhaps?

Overall, a great episode. Very cool seeing Andrew again and the final Spike/Angel moment was well done. Can't wait for (hopefully) Willow, Giles and Xander to drop by. At this point, I'm not really that concerned about Buffy.
I would still really like to see Buffy on, but after Andrew's update it actually does feel a bit soon narratively to be seeing her again. She's enjoying life in Italy, and still taking care of Dawn, who's in school. That little update, and the knowledge that she's still running things, was enough to keep me happy.

And I caught the X-Men line immediately, it was great. It also wasn't the first time Angel has made fun of one of Joss Whedon's movie projects (see: "Fredless").
Just adding my two cents: I agree with the comments here... Unfortunately I missed the first 20 minutes because of my stupid job, but from what I saw, this was definitely one of the best of the season(or the series, for that matter). The last scene was a showcase for the great chemistry between David and James. It was very moving; I'd say it was one of my favorite scenes from either show.
Absolute best episode so far...and the ending? Priceless. There were so many things to rave about in this episode, but by far what I enjoyed most was the realization that this episode sets us up for a spectacular Buffy feature film.

No matter what your opinion is of Buffy's last two seasons, I am glad the show ended the way it did with Buffy activating all the potentials. "Damage" proved that the new life Buffy and the Scoobies are leading (even if it is off-camera) is great storytelling. Here's hoping Joss and SMG agree to reward all their passionately devoted fans with a Buffy movie.
I also think that last night showed that there is still great potential for the Faith the Vampire Slayer show that I still think is upcoming. Andrew could definitely be involved, with new cast in the roles of some of the new slayers, and the possibilities seem pretty nice after that.
A Faith spinoff is only possible if Eliza wants to do it and I don't think she does. Tru Calling is still on the air and there is no indication that it is getting cancelled. Although I don't watch it, there have been indications that it is growing a fan base.

That said, I really liked the character of Dana on this episode. She was very Faith like and the actress did a wonderful job of playing psychotic and vulnerable at the same time. I think with some more guest appearances on Angel to fill out this character more as she heals, she could make a very interesting and dark vampire slayer and could be an interesting character for a spin off. She grabbed my attention like none of the potentials on BtVS could and I immediately liked her. I do hope we get to see some more of this character in the future.
I have to agree with blwessels about Dana. Navi Rawat gave an absolutely convincing, mesmerizing performance, holding her own in scenes with a powerhouse actor like James Marsters. She was both imposing and terrifying in the scenes in the hospital and at the grocery store, and yet extremely sympathetic as she tried to separate out vision and personal remembrance.

Joss, Goddard, and DeKnight might have struck gold here. Dana's a combination of three Whedon archetypes: the Slayer (Buffy), the Lost Little Girl (Willow/River), and the Reformed Monster (Angel). Faith, but with even more baggage. Let Eliza Dushku ride Tru Calling all the way to Hollywood irrelevance. We may have the next spinoff right here.
With Andrew as her watcher!
I have to agree that this was an excellent episode, though I'm still hanging my best ep of the season hat on 'Soul Purpose' for now. Having Andrew back was such a delight, though it kind of made me realize how much I love and truly miss all of the BTVS characters. It was great to get some updates on everyone and especially discovering that Buffy is still out there running things. If I were her I imagine my post-Chosen reaction would have been "Cool, there's hundreds of other Slayers out there...time to get out of this line of work and parrrrrrrtay!!" But nope, she's still out there kicking demon butt, so good for her.

I personally think if I could choose between a Faith spinoff or 'Andrew - Slayer Of The Vampyres', I'd take the latter. More Tom Lenk please!
Can't say I'm as big an Andrew fan as a lot of the folks on this website. I find Tom Lenk alternately mildly amusing and annoying, and I still resent Andrew for sucking airtime from the regulars in Buffy Season 7. His interaction with Marsters last night was mostly solid ("Like nickels?"), but his core dump of exposition at the W&H offices was a five-minute migraine.

But I will give the Little Ponce some credit. His infusion of spine and the double-cross of Angel at the end was perfect, especially since nobody could have possibly seen it coming. The little weenie pulled it off. Maybe Giles knows what he's doing, after all.
Loved it. It was like a quick hard punch in the guts. It hit just the right spot.
When the episode was over I was almost shocked because I got drawn in so much I didn't realize the time was up.
It had many but perfectly placed references to gladden a long time fan's heart while still being accessible to others.
Angel's doubts, the whole crews' dealing with working from the belly of the beast, Spike's continued mirroring of what once was, Andrew's punchline at the end ... the arch is gaining momentum and I can't wait to see where it's all going.
I'm sure there would be a fierce bidding war for the Angel spin-off featuring the psychotic abused woman who decapitated two innocent victims in her first minute of screen time, followed by (I assume) a security guard and a dock worker.

You know, I enjoy the anti-heroes and darker heroes on Buffy and Angel. Angel is grand, if a little mopey. Spike is a force of nature. Faith is on the path to redemption, just not quite there IMHO. But you have to draw the line somewhere.

I understand that Dana was broken and her story is a tragedy. I wouldn't mind seeing the character again someday. I'd enjoy seeing her progress, or lack thereof. But as the lead on a series, no. She only showed the slightest signs of a lessening of her psychosis by the episodes end. And then it was only in the realization that Spike had not been her abductor. That changed nothing, although she still had some reason to hate William the Bloody. She attacked Angel without provocation. Every attempt to communicate by those she encountered resulted in violence. And in the end, she was put down like an animal.

Do you actually think that Buffy, Giles and the rest of the newly formed Watcher's Council would let a delusional, paranoid, psychotic Slayer out of their sight? I hate to say it since many of the issues dealt with on Buffy focus so deeply on redemption, but I don't think she can ever be fully trusted with the power she has. Let's consider this from a real world perspective. Would you trust John Hinckley with this sort of power? He tried to kill the president, but his doctors say he's stable and he now has unsupervised home visits. How about Jeffrey Dahmer? Charles Manson?

You might counter that she can be helped because of her illness. But what do you think the doctors were trying to do while she was in their care? I agree that the Watchers are the best choice to care for her. Perhaps they can comfort her, give her a higher level of care and supervision. But in the end, I think that's all they can do. I don't know if there is a hero anywhere in that fractured psyche.
First of all, I don't think that, fair or unfair, Tru Calling will be back next year. Second, as much as I liked the episode, I don't think that a saw-murdering "I'm too crazy to feel remorse" Vampire Slayer is what I want at the center of a show.

Third, as I said before, we don't have to make the choice of Andrew OR Faith. We can have both, and be the better for it.

I don't have anything against Eliza's new show, I just think that it isn't going to make it, especially on Thursdays with All-Star Survivor coming back. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

Is Dana "spinoff ready" now? Of course not. There's substantial recovery time in her future, and she's probably never going to be completely well. But the fact is, at the end of last night's episode, she COULD distinguish between her childhood trauma and the imposed Slayer memories. That's a good starting point. If Giles and others on the New!Council, people with an intimate knowledge of both Slayers and psychology, can get their you-know-what together, they might be able to help Dana deal with what she went through in the past and what she is now. As you said, she'd be better of with them than Dr. There's-a-best-selling-book-in-this.

"I don't know if there is a hero anywhere in that fractured psyche." Maybe not. But I definitely want to see Dana a few more times on Angel, check on her progress. Navi Rawat definitely has the "presence" to hold an audience; now we need to know if she can handle pages of dialogue and Joss Whedon's usual complex tangle of motivations. Considering the female characters introduced on Angel this year (Eve and Nina), I think Joss owes us this.
First of all I didn't say immediately take this Dana character and make a spin-off for her. I said with more guest appearances on Angel to fill out her story and show that she's been getting help would be needed first. I don't get the argument either that the "I'm too crazy to feel remorse" Vampire Slayer is no better than the "I was a normal Vampire Slayer before I murdered someone, turned on all my friends, tried to kill them, murdered a few innocent people, tortured my former watcher almost to death, went to jail and then became remorseful" a better idea. Let's see, Angel's killed as Angelus, Faith's killed, Andrew's killed, and Willow's killed. No one would be arguing a Faith or Willow spin-off though would they if the opportunity was there. With the exception of Angel, the other three made those choices to kill. In Dana's mind, everyone was the enemy because her nightmares were telling her the only way to be sure was to stake them or cut their heads off.

My main point was, this was a very interesting character and I'd like to see more of her.

I also think the Hinkley comparison doesn't belong because that's a real life thing (and he had a good home life and childhood) and the fact that they let Faith lose on the streets after all she did and then made her the leader of the potentials when they booted Buffy out even though her past is arguably worse than Dana's because she had a choice and knew what she was doing.

I just think that if there is a spin-off ever going to come, that this would be a great character to have in the show. Doesn't have to be the lead but just a great character regardless.
Wow. Harborym... brother_grady... way to be down with the notion of mentally ill people ever being helped. :

I think it's odd to talk about how much remorse the character showed for her actions when she clearly wasn't in her right state of mind. The idea of therapy, counseling, medication or other treatment for those with psychoses is to help them GET to their right state of mind and/or manage the emotions their illness creates. Dana didn't show remorse for her actions because she was, by definition, crazy. Does that mean she will ALWAYS be crazy? No. Does that mean that she should never be forgiven for the "sins" she committed while crazy? Tough question, particularly among Buffy/Angel/Whedon fans. Personally, I think the idea that someone who commits some heinous crime while in a state of mind (or possession, or mindcontrol, or whatever) not of their own choosing and outside of their finite control has to be permanently branded with some kind of theological scarlet letter and can never EVER hope to find any peace or forgiveness is, quite frankly, preposterous and nauseating. But there's certainly a school of thought in the Whedonverse that once you sin, whatever the cause or reason, there's no going back.

Not saying that Dana can definitely be cured. Some mental conditions are at best only ever "managed" rather than outright "cured". But it's sort of disturbing to hear so many people talking about how she's too psycho to ever heal.
Besides...we're talking about the Whedonverse here. We're talking about a Slayer who is given gifts of both mental and physical strength beyond normal humans. They also have access to one of the most powerful witches on the planet, who has at least once, aided in the recovery of a mentally fractured Slayer. Not to mention the Coven that brought Willow back from the brink.
I never said that Dana couldn't be helped. But I am of the opinion that she has a very miniscule chance of functioning normally in the world. She was abducted at 8 years old, tortured for a decade, and then catatonic until being activated as a Slayer, which provided her with dreams that allowed her to construct a delusional world filled with only monsters which she then proceeded to murder without remorse. It's my opinion, based on the facts, that unless Willow activated the Mother Slayer of all psychologists with her spell, Dana will probably not be well enough to even begin training for many years to come. I don't think any of Buffy's motivational speeches, or even a party in Xander's eye socket, are going to have her up and around soon.

Don't mistake me for someone who has no knowledge or experience in dealing with the mentally ill. I believe that the disturbed and traumatized can be treated and in many, or most, cases become fully functioning and important members of society. I've also seen the long lasting effect of trauma to a person. Therapy is helpful, but not a cure. Meds have taken leaps and bounds just in the past few decades. But there is also relapse, there are tolerances to drugs and limits to their benefit, there are missed doses and/or an unwillingness to self-medicate, there are complications in times of stress and Slaying is not a stress free job. There is absolutely no cure-all for the mentally ill. There is high function, amazing people who are faced with a disease that they can overcome, but it can never be ignored.

I wouldn't say Dana is hopeless. But she has a very long road before her.

About Faith. Faith is a murderer. I'm no fan of Faith, but I do think that there is a place in the world for her. She can do good, and has proven that. She is, by no means, forgiven or redeemed, in my eyes. I'd be hard pressed to call her a hero, now or ever. Thus, I included her in my 'anti-hero' list. One who lacks the attributes of a hero.

Gah. I have to log off for a bit. I'd love to discuss this further, and would probably do it right now, but the outside world beckons.
On a random tangent, having just looked up 'mellifluous' online, I get the following definitions:

1. Flowing with sweetness or honey.
2. Smooth and sweet: "polite and cordial, with a mellifluous, well-educated voice"

Nothing that seems like a Harmony reference to me. So was it a clever in joke or just a random word? Inquiring minds want to know.

Though it should be noted that the word 'harmonious' pops up in the thesaurus. Hmmm...

[ edited by MindPieces on 2004-01-29 23:21 ]
It's not a reference to Harmony the's a reference to harmony the word...which is a reference to how Harmony the Vampire is the exact opposite of what her name means.

The answer IS harmony...why they put it in that episode and why they put it where they did is a mystery.
To my understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, Faith killed exactly one person, the Mayor's assistant, and that was accidental -- most likely third degree manslaughter. In the Angel episode she reappears in, she beats up a man at the bus stop and takes his clothes and money, but does not kill him. She tortures Wes horribly, but again does not kill him. Faith didn't show remorse for a long time, but finally did and turned herself into the authorities for a number of years.

My point is that even in the eyes of the law, third degree manslaughter of one person is viewed very differently than killing what, at least three people in cold blood. At the very least she would likely be locked in a prison for the criminally insane for the rest of her life, for both her and others' protection. That is not to say that she can't get better, understand what she did, etc., but it does likely mean that she will likely not be walking the streets and being trained in the normal way of a Slayer.
To my knowledge she has killed three times (humans that is). The first was the Mayor's assistant. The second was the Professor of Volcanology and the third was the guy at the airport delivering the box of spiders for the mayor and she mutilated him too. Oh yeah, and when she came out of the coma I believe she killed the girl in the hospital and stole her clothes. She tried killing Angel and Buffy but was unsuccesful. And if Angel hadn't shown up she most likely would've killed Wesley. Don't forget she attacked Buffy's mother who was nothing but kind to her too. Plus she was completely aware of the Mayor's plans to kill everyone in Sunnydale and was completely fine with it.
Faith killed the Volcano-ologist too.
blwessels...yep...those other instances too!
You can't use the term "in cold blood" to describe someone who's insane. She had no real concept of what she was doing or why. She would never be put in prison for what she did. Back to the insane asylum, yes.
Who you refering to there ringworm? Dana or Faith?
Dana. Faith, while heavily depressed, was always cognizant of her actions.
Ok, just checking, I was gonna argue if it was faith, but no need.
Like most people here I was fasinated by Dana. To me it's really interesting because she was more compelling in a one hour episode than all the other potentials from an entire season's worth of Buffy combined. Watching it again today I'm struck once more by just how solid an episode it was. Again, that final!
Actually Faith didn't kill the girl after she woke from her coma, just badly beat her. But we're really picking hairs here. You could go on forever debating the various murderers in the Buffyverse and who has the possibility of redemption and who doesn't. The bottom line is that yes, Dana made for a fascinating character, though I doubt we'll be seeing her again. At least that's the impression I got from the ending of last night's episode.
Ok a couple of issues - I had kinda after watching it again. I still think it was a great episode for the overall.

1) Angel was there when Buffy got the scyth, he may not have known about what she did with it but he knew she had it.

2) They knew Buffy was in Europe, cause obviously someone had spoken with her - so how did they not know about the army of slayers - you think she would have mentioned something to them about the new slayer brigade - especially now working for W&H - you think a pshyic would have mentioned the whole activation thing.

3) Didn't care for the I don't speak chinese line - thought it was a bit corny - would have much rather had him say something like - he doesn't know her mum or such, give him a bit of credit and perhaps development over a 100 years.

4) The obviously over looked Faith and Robin's noted absence from being mention (coincidents that they are the only other two actors working on other series - E.D. on Tru Calling and DB W. on 24 - both on FOX {Angels parent studio}).

5) No former potentials with Andrew - like Vi or Rona (however there was a Vi look alike) would have been nice to see one of them teamed with Andrew as part of his backup - cause really would Giles send Andrew on a mission alone????

6) Andrew thought it was cool when Warren killed Katrina, he even killed Jonathon, he saw Anya get cut on the diagnal, and killed a bringer but he trips and falls sees a dead body and screams. Also why didn't Spike smell the guys blood before they reached him, would have thought that much blood would have caught his sences.

7) Ok last one - Angel - if Spike could follow her scent why not Angel or have him use Harmony to track the girl down. Not really understanding that one - if it was so important to find her.

Two last comments can I assume correctly that David's knee was hurting in this episode - lots of limping on his part or so it seemed. Two can we get the WB to stop the voice-overs of the Grrr Argh. Ok that is my 2 cents plus some, like I said I loved the episode those were just a couple of things that jumped out at me.

One last thought - What if Andrew was really a cyborg and they are the ones collecting a slayer army as well or if not Andrew cannot keep his mouth shut about Spike - so I expect something to show up about that by seasons end. Well the season on the air is now offically past the half-way point and we have 11 new episodes left to look forward too.
My thought throughout the episode? They should get a bunch of slayers to take her down. But I figured there weren't any/many locally that they knew of. Then out comes the army at the end. It just seems that her fellow slayers could have stood a better chance maybe not of tracking her but at least of capturing her with minimal damage - and maybe even reasoning with her to an extent since they presumably would seem much less threatening to her.

My other thought: At what point does a Potential's potential expire if she is not chosen? Who were the oldest slayers activated during the great slayerpalooza? Is it possible there are some old-lady (and middle-aged-lady and plain-old-adult-lady) slayers running around? I'm loving the possibilities. We know from discussions among the girls last year that there's "a certain age" at which a Potential is less and less likely to become The Chosen One, but do they all actually lose their Potential status? Probably - most likely you stop having the dreams and go on with your life and chalk it all up to hormones and adolescence - but it would be interesting right now in this unique circumstance if that weren't the case.
A couple of rebuttals on RavenU's points:

1) I liked Spike's Chinese line and thought it made perfect sense. Does Spike seem like the type who spends his downtime with a Chinese to English dictionary trying to master a new language? Highly doubtful. I could have 100+ years of life and still probably wouldn't know much more than English.

2) Your complaint over Andrew's reaction to the dead body reminds me of people who don't understand why Buffy was so helpless and lost in The Body. Just because you've seen one before doesn't mean it's not traumatizing. And Andrew did freak out when Warren killed Katrina...he only thought that getting away with it was "cool."

3) Did anyone really miss the potentials? I wouldn't have recognized anyone but Kennedy anyway.

4) There was never any mention that Angel didn't know about the scythe itself, only that he didn't know what they did with it.

Okay...those are my two cents for now. :)

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