March 23 2012
(SPOILER)
Opinion piece on the current Buffy Season 9 controversy.
Article sorta takes Joss to task a little for the perceived bailout on the issue at hand but Allie defends the man and makes it clear that this was the plan all along.
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Heatherondo | March 23, 12:03 CET
I can't really come down on this as an issue yet because I feel like I need to see more plot resolution.
azzers | March 23, 12:17 CET
FOOTAGE AT 11
NOW HERE'S STRONGHARD GODCOCK WITH SPORTS
waxbanks | March 23, 12:47 CET
waxbanks | March 23, 12:49 CET
a robot.
Sorry. I just had one of those moments when I realized how absurd the things I say are. I love this!
Giles_314 | March 23, 13:02 CET
Jaymii | March 23, 13:46 CET
alexreager | March 23, 15:53 CET
Seems to me that not being literal is pretty much the goal for most of my favorite authors.
Scraggles | March 23, 16:46 CET
However. I still think the pregnancy is in play, but only because I also believe the real story here is the child Buffy will have.
Dana5140 | March 23, 18:17 CET
Skytteflickan88 | March 23, 19:10 CET
KingofCretins | March 23, 19:20 CET
These are not rhetorical questions -- I would actually like someone to explain the theory that "she's not pregnant and never was," and how such a theory could be consistent with the facts we know so far.
Squishy | March 23, 20:23 CET
richied1983 | March 23, 20:27 CET
Seriously, right now, I think the season will develop according to the following scenario: Buffy spends some time in a robot's body. When she gets her real body back she finds out that she's not pregnant. The issue of pregnancy won't be mentioned till the end of the season. In the last (or next-to-last) issue we'll find out that Buffy was actually pregnant and her baby (babies) was born when her conscience was in the robot's body. And - that she was destined to carry a messiah, a future savior of the world.
To put it simply, Connor 2.0.
Moscow Watcher | March 24, 01:18 CET
[ edited by anca on 2012-03-24 12:18 ]
anca | March 24, 04:12 CET
I don't for a second believe that the baby plot is done with, although I do think that any possibility of the abortion going ahead is now gone. Buffy's body will go through with the pregnancy whether Buffy herself wanted to or not. Read into that what you will, I guess.
I do think that the baby is going to be important. That much is obvious. People like Buffy don't have babies that grow up to be accountants. Whether that importance is for good or evil remains to be seen. I still think that Twilight gave up a little too easily at the end of season 8. Just shrugged its lion-y shoulders and wandered off into the sunset without so much as a 'I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those crazy kids'. Maybe it had a secondary plan for being born into Buffy's universe, through Buffy herself. That would certainly give new meaning to the Buffy/Angel space sex. Even if that isn't specifically the case though, I still think Twilight's story isn't over yet, and neither is that of the baby.
Five Horizons | March 24, 04:36 CET
If Buffy is actually, bodily pregnant somewhere, there's really only two outcomes -- 1) she gets the abortion originally intended (which IMO would transform what was once straightforward and topical, even if I didn't agree, into an almost cartoonish quest, a ticking clock race to get an abortion, "Adventures in Babysitting" except completely not -- all to tell us what we already know, that she wanted one and can have it. Or, 2) she either decides to stay pregnant or she has no alternative, regardless, she has a baby.
#1 is possible, I suppose, but is something I find more befitting a black comedy and not the seriousness with which Joss and Scott Allie and the original month's worth of discussion regarded the subject matter of Buffy's decision. #2 is something I think that would make more people mad than the original subject and how it was handled on the first pass ever could have. Which is to say, I think it would go over worse if Buffy either, having had all this kidnapped robot time to think about it, decided to have the baby or it was simply too late, than if he had just written her to play the "Knocked Up"/"Juno" playbook from the start. I don't think he has the viciousness to write for Buffy a baby that both she might and many of her fans will resent if not despise.
So what I figure is most likely is that the pointed, even stilted expository announcement "I guess this means I'm not pregnant" was put there intentionally as the end of that issue -- later to be followed by some jazz to explain why WTFuffy appeared pregnant. But I really don't think the point of this robot story is or ever was Buffy's pregnancy (well, other than for this contrivance), I think the two are coincidental plot-wise.
KingofCretins | March 24, 06:31 CET
Madhatter | March 24, 07:03 CET
Five Horizons | March 24, 07:26 CET
But let's stay in the present. I also have strong objections to abortion being used as casual contra-post-conception - the notion that it "liberates" people to engage in irresponsible and dangerous sexual activity, because the consequences can just be made to "go away" later. I fully acknowledge that "things happen" even when responsible steps are taken, but it's the other thing where life is casually created and snuffed out because... oops, silly horny me. I screwed up again. I'm so irresponsible!
And that brings us back to Buffy. We're mid-story. I have no idea where this is going and so I'm withholding judgement. But the author here has illustrated my worst fears. The story as we know it (subject to change)... Buffy gets drunk and blacks out at a party where there were people she didn't know and no one she did know watching her back. She (apparently) has sex and (apparently) gets pregnant. She decides to get an abortion and... presto! "The problem" just goes away - clean, tidy and consequence free (aside from the fact she's a robot). If there's not more to this and the season simply moves on, I think that's a horrible, horrible message. We'll see.
BringItOn5x5 | March 24, 10:50 CET
Five Horizons | March 24, 12:09 CET
Squishy | March 24, 12:37 CET
Five Horizons: "People like Buffy don't have babies that grow up to be accountants. " I find that a very problematic thing to say. A lot of children have parents living with some bad choices and they turn out fine.
DaddyCatALSO | March 24, 13:20 CET
Dana5140 | March 24, 13:53 CET
What I meant to say wasn't that the child would be likely to grow up to have some sort of psychological problem, but rather that any child of Buffy would be unlikely to have a boring destiny and grow up to have a regular, mundane sort of life. Better to be risking your life slaying demons than sat behind a desk in a suit, taking care of other people's money, I'd say! ;)
Five Horizons | March 24, 14:31 CET
But I also think the kidnapping of Buffy to force whatever pregnancy to term is a distinct possibility. This issue was treated with a lack of seriousness in Doctor Who with River Song -- most of the horror implicit in it was ignored or skipped over. I wouldn't put it past Joss to deal with the political metaphor inherent in the removal of Buffy's agency in her pregnancy and the horror of that. Also, the mystery of who Buffy slept with the night before would still be in play. It could be no one, or it could be a character who is also not themselves, or even the rebirth of Twilight, and the baby would therefore be a long term plan by a villain who could not leave it to Buffy to choose. The consequences would be that Buffy's child is something she will have to fight, a la Connor, and something she would have avoided if given the freedom to choose. I think that's pretty on point with what Joss would be trying to say.
Either way, I think the idea was that even if it's a non-issue with the overall arc like with Satsu, this is about portraying the character going through similar decisions as real girls her age, though Buffy's outcomes are usually different. Many girls sleep with a guy only to have him turn into a different person the next morning. Usually, they don't have to kill him and send him to hell later. Many people experiment and with their sexuality in their 20s and end up figuring out they're straight, to the dismay of their short term gay partners. Usually, they don't have to command them in battle afterward. Many girls decide to terminate a pregnancy, but usually don't find out they're a robot on their way to the appointment.
PuppetDoug | March 24, 15:27 CET
I am going with the robot thing being about something else entirely.
KingofCretins | March 24, 17:47 CET
redeem147 | March 24, 17:49 CET
KingofCretins | March 24, 19:23 CET
You might also assume that the mind swap was supposed to happen before Buffy realised that she was pregnant. The intention being to move her mind into the robot body until the baby was born and then move her back again afterwards, hopefully never realising that she had given birth at all.
I certainly don't think that it's entirely out of the question that the person who got Buffy pregnant in the first place (if we do assume that she really is) was also the one who arranged for the Buffybot switch. In fact that was the very first possibility that occured to me.
Five Horizons | March 24, 19:49 CET
KingofCretins | March 24, 20:47 CET
I mean, we've seen Andrew dabbling with robotic parts, sure, but doesn't that make him the least likely suspect for what has happened to Buffy, rather than the most? Why signpost the answer so obviously? Not to mention the fact that he has never been shown to have the technological knowledge to even fix a Buffybot, let alone build one from scratch. Even if we go with the idea that Andrew was involved, it seems unlikely that he managed it all alone, wouldn't you say?
And if it actually was Andrew then are we to assume that he switched Buffy into the robot at the party? It would be an explanation for her blackout but it would also pretty much wipe out any possibility that Buffy was ever really pregnant, as even the suggestion that she was only occured after the switch. That means that Joss willingly wasted the better part of two issues of the comic on a subplot that didn't really ever exist. I find that hard to believe, frankly. To go into such depth and raise such a political hot-topic as abortion when the plot was going to end with an 'Oh, I'm not actually pregnant! My bad!' seems like an incredibly un-Joss-like thing to do. I just don't see it being that simple.
Five Horizons | March 24, 21:16 CET
Shapenew | March 24, 21:28 CET
And yet.
Turn the clock back to the winter of 2008, and Joss threw Buffy and Satsu into bed, even while saying the very same day it really didn't say anything permanent or interesting about Buffy's sexuality. It was just a thing people do, pretty much. And he was criticized for this. It meant, the criticism went, that Joss willingly wated the better part of an arc of the comic on a subplot that might as well not have existed. And it was hard to believe; he went to such length to raise a political hot-topic like sexual orientation (particularly the idea of total fungible sexual orientation, bisexuality like an on/off switch) when the plot was going to end with "oh, she's neither lesbian nor bisexual, just a lonely straight chick". People said it seemed an incredibly un-Joss-like thing to do.
And yet.
I refer again to the solicitations for Issues #8 and #9 -- #8 -- "There is something seriously wrong with Buffy! She and Spike discover that the one person who can help her is actually . . . Andrew? Buffy's situation becomes even more dire as she discovers that Simone, the Slayer with an enormous grudge, has been targeting her."
#9 -- "Andrew doesn’t always make the best choices (see Season 6). And now Buffy finds herself and the very course of her life profoundly affected by one of Andrew’s over-the-top, idiotic . . . hair-brained . . . schemes. Together with Andrew and Spike, the worried Slayer will have to confront herself and her comrades, as well as a long-standing annoyance, the number-one Buffy hater of all Buffy haters: Simone, the gun-toting Slayer."
So either the next two issues after finding out Buffy is a robot have almost nothing whatsoever to do with getting to the bottom of her being a robot... or they have everything to do with getting tot he bottom of her being a robot. And in turn, that terms like "idiotic, hair-brained scheme" are how Dark Horse feels comfortable describing a plot centering on willfully or intentionally stealing Buffy's body from her to force her to reproduce. You are free to run with that, but I'm inclined to take that information and say "well, this isn't about the forced breeding of Buffy either on purpose or by accident".
Note -- I always thought it was 'hare-brained', i.e. like a rabbit, sort of flittery and insubstantial, and not 'hair-brained'. But, I guess we still do say that some things are dumber than a bag of hair, so I guess that fits.
KingofCretins | March 24, 21:47 CET
Wind the clock back to mid-2007, and Buffy noticing that the lip gloss she borrowed from Satsu was cinnamon flavored was being thrown around in discussion threads on every forum discussing the book, probably this one as well, as obviously meaning it wasn't Satsu who kissed her because it was all too easy and obvious.
Point. Back then, I was 100% sure that Joss was recycling his "Our Mrs. Reynolds" twist - that Satsu kissed Xander and he, in turn, kissed Buffy.
Still, I disagree about
a plot centering on willfully or intentionally stealing Buffy's body from her to force her to reproduce.
Not to reproduce. To keep a possible messiah in this world - or in the Frayverse where (s)he will be sent.
I always thought it was 'hare-brained', i.e. like a rabbit, sort of flittery and insubstantial, and not 'hair-brained'.
I think it's supposed to be a joke. In the original solicitation "hair-brained" is italisized.
Moscow Watcher | March 25, 01:19 CET
For one, the idea that Buffy might be bisexual or at least open minded about sleeping with girls wasn't brushed aside in a couple of issues. Her fling with Satsu wasn't a one night stand. Okay, it hasn't been mentioned all that much since then admittedly, but I don't think that Buffy's bisexual nature, if you can call it that, is meant to have been swept under the rug as a forgotten plot point. It's just not an issue at the moment.
And I'd have to agree with Moscow Watcher that I don't see this about Buffy's body being taken simply to force her to reproduce for the sake of it. If my theory is at all correct then the reasoning behind it would be a great deal more specific than simply making sure she has a baby. It would be because this baby had a destiny that needed to be allowed to happen for some universally important event to come to pass. Not just to force Buffy into the hell that is late night feeding and nappy changing.
As for the next couple of issues' solicitation information, I'll grant you that they certainly give a very definite impression, given what we know up until now, but I'm still struggling to accept that Andrew is even capable of doing what you suggest. I'd be willing to go with him being used as a pawn in a grander scheme, but as far as I can see Andrew just doesn't have that brilliant a mind to do it all alone. In the Trio he was the demon controller, after all. Warren was the technological genius. And he's in a bucket now. ;)
Five Horizons | March 25, 06:32 CET
redeem147 | March 25, 07:00 CET
This theory basically taken what appears to have been a topical aside in Season 9 to touch on abortion in (per Joss) a more candid way than has been found recently, and turns the entire season into that story. That is one of several factors that, each on their own, should be enough to show how unlikely it really is. That the plot hook is her giving birth to the Buffyverse's Kwisatz Haderach, or Twilight's Plan B (because Twilight seemed like something that would make plans in the event of its own failure?), or giving birth to 200-year premature twins without having first given birth to their older sister don't really make it sound more believable to me.
"I think this means I'm not pregnant" -- Buffy, 9.07, sounding every bit the "just in case you weren't paying attention" piece of exposition that the "Spike... I'm a f$@ing robot!" that followed it did.
"We dug into a topic we cared about and handled it with respect.” -- Scott Allie, sounding very much like an editor with a shovel full of dirt in hand standing over a deceased equine.
KingofCretins | March 25, 07:30 CET
Dana5140 | March 25, 10:29 CET
Shapenew | March 25, 10:49 CET
KingofCretins | March 25, 11:17 CET
Dana5140 | March 25, 11:39 CET
I really think the author's wrong that this whole pregnancy was a head-fake and that it is now a nonissue. I don't think Joss would have come up with a silly narrative contrivance just so Buffy could decide to have an abortion.
Squishy | March 25, 12:21 CET
Squishy, I personally agree about "Juno". Joss Whedon evidently did not based on the interview he gave. So that is how we got a story about "the moment of decision" that he considered better. But nowhere did he say his complaint was that an abortion did not take place, in fact, he conspicuously steered away from the suggestion that this was going to about Buffy actually getting an abortion and, if you really parse his words, even about Buffy actually being pregnant at all.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2012-03-25 21:45 ]
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2012-03-25 21:46 ]
KingofCretins | March 25, 12:41 CET
On the other hand, going ahead with the pregnancy story would give the authors all kinds of great character- based dramatic material -- the kind that has been the hallmark of the best Buffy stories.
So if I'm making inferences about authorial intent, then I'm inclined to infer that they're going in the latter direction, not the former.
Squishy | March 25, 13:19 CET
Dana5140 | March 25, 15:33 CET
KingofCretins | March 25, 15:56 CET
Because Buffy matters.
Here's to the nerds rage :)
anca | March 27, 10:26 CET