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May 02 2012

(SPOILER) Cover art and info for Buffy Season 9 #12. This should be interesting.

The W&H factor kicks all kinds of ass....
It does, doesn't it?
The second cover we already saw a few weeks back but Buffy vs. W&H?

Joss wasn't kidding last summer when he said in the second year of season 9 they would get crazy with the crossovers.Buffy dealing with Wolfram & Hart is a pretty big crossover concept.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2012-05-02 23:18 ]
I always wondered if there was a connection between whatever critters are the power behind W&H and the super powers from Fray that sent Urkonn. I'm forgetting why I made the connection since it's been years since I thought of it... probably not gonna be the connecting thread in this case regardless.
Dang, now I wish Spike was still going to be in the Buffy comic for this, especially since he's been involved with Wolfram and Hart!!! :(

Regardless though, that is pretty exciting! I love me some W&H!
Yay!!! Wolfram and Hart??? I have ALWAYS wanted to see Buffy cross them :) I wondered what happened to them after Angel, the Series....
But yeah, really wish Spike would've stuck around for this :( that would've been an awesome confrontation.
Well, one could follow "After the Fall" which would have had them forced from our dimension for lack of resources, at least for a while. Of course, it became moot because, like all interdimensional forces that don't even bother to take corporeal form in Buffy's dimension, Wolfram & Hart's access was cut off when the Seed of Wonder was broken...

... neeeevermind.

I do find the idea of Buffy encountering them mildly interesting -- I give her credit for enough brains to not agree to take over one of their branches -- but the "seed, what seed?" factor is just grating.
Wait, I'm so confused. When did Spike leave? I've been reading the comics as they come out but I don't remember Spike going anywhere. Can someone please explain?
I never made it through Angel the series. Never really cared for it, did not like the concept and it never resonated. This excites me not.
Is a Lilah cameo too much to ask for?
It's been a long while since I read the IDW Spike miniseries but if I recall correctly the Senior Partners were last seen escaping our reality on the main section of the dimension hopping bug-ship Spike is currently living on (Spike's ship actually only being an escape pod). If that's the case then them coming back to Earth would be through technological means, rather than mystical. No seed required.

I know that the later IDW stuff is shaky canon at best but the way I figure it, if the bug-ship is canon then there is a fair chance that the story leading up to Spike getting it is canon too. With a little luck this new story might finally establish how the Spike mini actually does fit into canon, if at all. Hope so because after ATF it was the IDW series I enjoyed the most and I'd like to be able to give it the official 'this-actually-happened' seal of approval.
Travel between dimensions is travel between dimensions is travel between dimensions. In the Buffyverse, technology and magic have overlapped since mid-Season 1, ever since a scanner could read a magical incantation. It would be disingenuous to try to split those hairs now. Upshot is, I'd have much preferred separate, specific mythological events to A) take away Willow's powers, and B) cause zompires, because those are the only two things that have changed (yes, yes, Morah blood, whatever, bad batch could just as easily have told that story).

As with so much in Season 9 and AnF, the trick is to apply Bellisario's Maxim more liberally than ever before in the Buffyverse and focus on the shiny -- here, the shiny is the chance for Buffy to flex on Wolfram & Hart. Double bonus that she may end up showing up Angel by actually meaningfully harming or even killing them -- I don't see her aiming for a symbolic blaze of glory she knows in advance won't do more than piss them off.
Depending on what will happen with this, it may confirm that that IDW Spike series where W&H leaves the dimension is actually not canon. After all, in that comic Drusilla is 'sane' again because her journey to hell in After the Fall made her that way, but the recent Angel & Faith arc negates that.
Does anyone know where I can get a plot summary of the IDW Angel and Spike stuff? I'm not really interested in spending my resources on buying all those back issues, but I am curious about major plot stuff, like this bug ship and apparently W&H using it to flee Buffy's dimension...
"Travel between dimensions is travel between dimensions is travel between dimensions. In the Buffyverse, technology and magic have overlapped since mid-Season 1, ever since a scanner could read a magical incantation. It would be disingenuous to try to split those hairs now."

It is... until it isn't.

All due respect, KoC, just because you say it's all much the same thing, doesn't make it so. It's not as if the Buffyverse is non-magic technology free, after all. Okay, a lot of the tech we have seen is magic related. The majority of the bits and pieces that the Initiative used were obviously designed with dealing with the supernatural in mind. That doesn't make that technology supernatural in itself though. The weaponry Riley used might be able to take a demon down but there was nothing paranormal about it. It's more than possible that the ship is purely technological in nature as well.

Even if that isn't the case though, and the ship does use magic to cross dimensions, why would that stop the Senior Partners from returning? Whatever dimension they were in likely still has magic for them to open a door back here, right? They could come back quite easily. It's only leaving again that would prove difficult.
Another thing that just occurred to me. Why are we assuming that the Senior Partners came back after the seed was destroyed? Spike didn't. They may well have travelled back to Earth's dimension before Buffy broke the seed. Again, all of this based on the idea that the events of the Spike miniseries are entirely accurate. If not then the Senior Partners could have relocated to Earth at any point after ATF ended.
Five, unless I missed something in the amorphous canon of IDW, the Senior Partners were never "here" to begin with. The only such incident was, theoretically, that inspection back in Season 2, but later canon heavily implies that whatever that thing was, it wasn't literally one of the Wolf, Ram, or Hart.

EDIT: Is it really subject to opinion, the tech/magic issue in the Buffyverse? Again, Season 1, episode 8; a computer scanner can cast a spell. Conflation of quantum physics and magic in Season 7. I could go on; the idiom of the Buffyverse has been one in which the phlebotenous event stands as end unto itself, and magic/potions/candles or computers/generators/tech are just interchangeable means of achieving it. Can't come up with a spell to recorporealize Spike? Fred will build a machine. Doomsday demons tired of waiting for lonely engineer to accidentally destroy the world? Write their mojo in mathematical form. Etc, etc, etc.

So, yes, it would be a complete hair-splitting departure to now say "oh, breaking the Seed only cut off other dimensions magically, they can still be accessed scientifically". Well, hell -- who says Willow can't have her powers? I'm sure there's an app for that.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2012-05-03 03:38 ]

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2012-05-03 03:39 ]
Continuity nit pickyness aside...THIS SOUNDS LIKE ALL KINDS OF AWESOME!...now if only Illyria would show up too.
Those are the most boring covers ever. I hope they are unfinished art. (says the girl who can't draw)

Double bonus that she may end up showing up Angel by actually meaningfully harming or even killing them

That's not a bonus for me. While the crossover-loving part of me is excited about Buffy taking on W&H, the extremely sentimental side of me says that's Angel's thing and her taking them on without him feels weird. And while I never agreed with Angel's decision to try and fight from within, I understood his reasoning behind it (& the bribery of it). The fact that they were SO powerful and SO evil made them such an amazing baddie. If Buffy just storms in and harms or kills them, it will sort of diminish that.
Those are the most boring covers ever.

Agreed. That Phil Noto cover is the epitome of bland.
This is good news to me.
Btw, I can't forgive Angel for doing the Twilight thing :p
"Is it really subject to opinion, the tech/magic issue in the Buffyverse?"

To flip around what I said before, it isn't... until it is.

My point being that we can't assume that anything we have seen before is going to limit what a bug-run spaceship from another dimension is going to be able to do. Has it even been specified that the bugs are magical/demonic in nature themselves? Do we know they use magic at all?

If Joss (or Brian at the time) wanted to write a species of technologically advanced bugs from another dimension into the canon that used technology to mimic magic then they could do exactly that. Again, just because we say something is so, doesn't mean that it is, or that the writers can't decide to change it later. I'm not the biggest fan of the bugs or the ship anyway, partly because of the lack of clarity about exactly what they are, but until it's specified that the ship is powered by magic, I'm open to the idea that it's opening dimensional rifts with its handy dandy 'dimensional rift opening machine' and is therefore not hindered by the lack of seed.

And again, all of that aside, we still have no idea if A) the events of Spike issue 8 are canon or even remotely accurate, B) the Senior Partners came back to our reality before the seed was broken or C) if the seed being broken could have any effect on the ship's ability to open a rift INTO our world, as long as it had a power source in the dimension it was leaving. We've already seen that items with inherent magical ability still function, even without the seed. If the ship's power source is something along those lines then it would be able to keep going regardless. I'd say that there's more than enough doubt about how the ship works (and how magic currently works, to be frank) to allow for it to still be able to do its thing.
Five, that's all well and good, but the entire premise of "... until it is" in this case is for the very purpose of bypassing the mythological change that the Seed of Wonder was supposed to signify, which is exactly what I consider such a failing in the first place. No commitment whatsoever to worldbuilding within the events of the story they are telling. You're sitting here laundry listing a bunch of ways for them to ignore or work around the Seed to tell a story they could have told before they broke it. That such things are going on is the entirety of my complaint.

There is no "back" to Buffy's dimension for the Partners, who, to my knowledge, have always operated from outside. So the alternative to SWS continuity (Seed? what Seed?) would be an illusion-smashing plot contrivance by which they just happened to be "in town" for the Seed to be broken, but were apparently not interested enough to intervene in Twilight, despite the well-established canonical fact that they don't like other apocalyptic scenarios to step on their toes.
"That such things are going on is the entirety of my complaint."

Fair enough, KoC, but that's how it is. I get that you don't like the way that the writers are finding loophole after loophole to have magic happen in a magic free reality but as it's now clearly established that this is the way that the story is going, I don't see any point in making a big deal about the fact that the Senior Partners were able to use one those loopholes to get back to Earth. It's obvious now that the 'wordbuilding' you mentioned was never intended to go the way you might have prefered and that a truly magicless world was never on the cards. And truthfully I'm glad about that because I was very doubtful that BtVS as a concept could work without magic, especially in comic form. I'm certainly not complaining too much that they are finding ways to allow magic to maintain a presence, even if it means coming up with a deus ex machina or two to keep the story going in something of a Buffyverse direction.

As for the Senior Partners going 'back' to Buffy's dimension, that all depends on what I was saying further up thread. In Spike issue 8, the final issue of the series, the Senior Partners were shown boarding the ship and leaving Buffy's reality, hence why I refer to them as coming back. Now, obviously that would depend on your individual opinion about the events of that issue and their place within the Buffyverse canon, but as I said, given that it was the story of how Spike got his ship, there has to be a fair chance that the rest of the events are meant to have happened too. As such, the Senior Partners did, for a time (and for an as yet not completely established reason), physically exist within Buffy's dimension.
'But yeah, really wish Spike would've stuck around for this :( that would've been an awesome confrontation.'
lisatwingomez


I really wish ANGEL would've stuck around for this: that would've been an awesome confrontation. After all, W&H was Angel's problem during the entire series.


'That's not a bonus for me. While the crossover-loving part of me is excited about Buffy taking on W&H, the extremely sentimental side of me says that's Angel's thing and her taking them on without him feels weird. And while I never agreed with Angel's decision to try and fight from within, I understood his reasoning behind it (& the bribery of it). The fact that they were SO powerful and SO evil made them such an amazing baddie. If Buffy just storms in and harms or kills them, it will sort of diminish that.'
CrystalSC

I'm with you, CrystalSC. After all, Joss is a master in diminishing Angel and in glorifying Buffy...see s8. And the very ending of #40: while Angel was catatonic and distroyed, Buffy 'cannibalized' the beginning and the end of AtS (the scene in the coffee and the last words 'Let's go to work!').
"After all, Joss is a master in diminishing Angel and in glorifying Buffy."

Is that what you really believe then, aradia? I'd never have guessed that that was your opinion. Y'know, despite the fact that you mention it in pretty much every comment you make... ;)

Can't say that I agree though. The Twilight era was somewhat questionable, I'll grant you. I still have trouble connecting the dots there. Short of Angel's mind being manipulated a hell of a lot more than we were led to believe, I just can't see how he would make the choices he did and believe that they were in any way correct. Other than the Twilight issue though, I've always enjoyed what Joss did with Angel and believe that he writes him as the flawed champion he was always designed to be, even when the character was largely under David Greenwalt's control.

Current Angel is probably the most recognisable version of himself that I've had the pleasure of reading in comic book form. Brian Lynch was an incredible writer for Spike and most of the other characters but I never felt that he had Angel down, at least not precisely as I knew him on the show. The Angel of Angel & Faith however? Just how I remember him!
Angel in s5 was not the Angel we have known for... well, years.
Do you remember Lilah mocking his threatens in Supersimmetry? 'You know, Angel, your threatens are just... well, threatens', meaning she wasn't afraid of him. Same opinion expressed later in Rain of Fire... And then Angel, at the very beginning of s5 killed a W&H' agent and so on during Whedon's season. He never directly killed someone before... And let's see the doctor in 'Unleashing'... He suggested waiting for his transformation, so he can be eaten!
Let's put apart s8, for God's sake and let's talk of the current season... Suicidal, body host for Giles' soul?!
I really enjoy most of the current season, its dialogue and the interaction between A&F, but this main plot-line is, for me at least, very disturbing.

And excuse me if I keep saying what you sarcastically mentioned before, but in this never ended appreciation for Joss and BtVS I want to testify that not all of us agree.

Be patient. Usually I read, not write.
Honestly, aradia? To me that's just character development. Granted, maybe not in a direction you particularly like, but still development.

As I said, I'm not going to include the Twilight mess as part of that development, because that came out of absolutely nowhere and I'll probably never really understand how Angel would logically come to the conclusion that becoming Twilight and doing everything he did under that mask was going to work out for the best, unless of course none of it really was his decision. The rest of the stuff you mentioned though? Perfectly fine with!

The Angel that killed Hauser (the W&H special ops guy) at the end of Conviction was perfectly in step with the Angel that allowed Darla and Dru to kill a room full of lawyers in season 2. The only difference is that this time he got his own hands dirty. Killing may not have always been his first choice but it was always an option for him. Hauser had led a team to assassinate a child and was quite willing to slaughter the rest of the class in the process. Angel took out a psychopath and also took his first step toward cleaning up the evil at Wolfram and Hart, just as he said he intended to do. Same goes for Dr. Royce in Unleashed. He got what was coming to him. These weren't just bad people. They were evil. Wolfram and Hart level evil! Exactly the kind of people that Angel always would have been willing to kill, under the right circumstances.

Again, you might not like that Angel was starting to become more ruthless, but it was perfectly in character for him to do so. Or do you think the pillow just fell on Wesley's head in Forgiving and Angel was struggling to remove it? Maybe you can try justifying that because of what Wesley had done or because Angel had lost his son, but the willingness to kill was still there, whatever the justification.

As for the current storyline concerning collecting Giles' soul, I'm not reading that as Angel being remotely suicidal. I think that he would be willing to sacrifice himself to get Giles back, but I'm also certain that if a better option was available to him and he could find a way to bring Giles back to life without any harm to himself, he would do it. Being willing to sacrifice himself for those he cares about is perfectly in character for Angel, but that is a far cry from him being suicidal. Willow risked her own life when she performed the spell to bring back Buffy. She might well have died, channeling that kind of power. That didn't make her suicidal though. Just willing to take the risk for her friend. Same goes for Angel now.
Nice.

So now Buffy will be employed by W&H. At least she won't be their CEO.

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