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February 04 2004

Herc's description of tonight's Angel episode entitled, "You're Welcome" which marks the 100th episode. (The discussion thread for Whedonesque posters).

I'd remove the bit about Cordy's return to keep those who want to stay *completely* spoiler-free.
Just a reminder to say that the spoiler tag will be removed sometime in the wee hours tomorrow.
I have to say, Herc's comment about "Cordelia [being] her old beautiful, charming, skinny, funny self [who] wears throughout the episode a top that makes it impossible to ignore the triumphant return of her fabulous gigantic American breasts" rather hilarious.
Ah, sorry. Just thought *everyone* knew by now, what with the WB's inability to maybe spoiler tag promos. And most people probably read it off the net but I'll refrain from doing the same mistake in the future.

In reference to the breasts, I also laughed. Alot.
Just saw the episode and I'm in shock.....I was unspoiled and so Cordy's death at the end hit me like a ton of bricks. Although reviewing the ep in my mind there were definitely some big clues, most prominent among them Cordy standing next to a figure in bed in the hospital, which she quickly shielded with a curtain. What an incredibly moving episode. And a cruel one -- Cordy back in her old form again only to be yanked away by the PTB. No!!!

So much was packed into this episode. It's as if the series went into hyperdrive for the 100th after weeks of a slow build. The Cordy story, and what her "return" meant to Angel, loomed by far the largest for me, but I also wonder what will happen with that skanky Eve, now out on her ear. And what will Angel & Co.'s attitude toward Wolfram and Hart be now?

I've got to go have a seabreeze to calm down and process. Cordy. Dead.
cordy. :(
Tonights episode was great and the fight scene was awesome.

"which she quickly shielded with a curtain"
wow I didn't notice that.
Sob, Cordy, How I loved thee, now you've been taken from me, damnit.....e. I just wonder if the MoG know about cordy or if the Powers pulled a Wolfram and hart mind wipe?
i'm 2/3's way thru' the ep right now and i'm so enjoying cordy's return... omg look at her wielding that sword, it's just the way things should be...! arrgh, how can they kill her off...?! joss i'm disappointed. and that's something i would have sworn on my loved one's lives i'd never say.

aack, that was sad :(

[ edited by t r a c y on 2004-02-05 05:53 ]
Xanders Twin! Yay! Another person on the thread. Yeah, you know when Angel and Wesley show up at Cordy's hospital room after hearing that she's awakened, the camera briefly shows a figure in a hospital bed and then suddenly there's Cordy, fully awake and standing next to said bed and she immediately starts up talking and somehow distracts them from the figure. I was so blown away by the presence of Cordy again that I'm having a bit of a brain fizz, but I'd swear that she drew a curtain around the figure on the bed while making a Cordyesque wisecrack. Or otherwise obscured the figure. Since I don't have the emotional energy to go back and watch it right now, does anyone else remember what specifically happened?

Another clue that struck me afterwards was what Cordy said after watching the old videotape of Doyle. She said, "the first soldier down." Or something like that. And there was (to me) an emphasis on "first" which made me wonder, well, who else in the gang besides Doyle has gone down? In retrospect, Cordy has. I wouldn't really count Lilah or others not fully in the gang who've bit the bullet.

Okay, so, one more observation: I have to say that Cordy being back in the irrepressible way that she was just hit home to me how AtS is missing a certain oomph. I like all the actors and characters, don't get me wrong. It's just that the oomph factor skyrocketed tonight with Cordy being back. Anyone else feel that way?
I thought the episode was okay. But I did realize that I just don't care about Cordy as much as I thought I did. I guess over the past two years I just got over her. Even when she came back fairly Queen C-esque... meh... still over her. Oh well. It was a nice send off. I hope this is the end of the Lindsey and Eve relationship, because their lack of chemistry and her entire existence was squicky.

And that promo for next week-
I hate to say it, but I don't think we've seen the last of squicky Eve. I think Eve will come back in some form, with a vengeance, and try to get even with Angel. She looked homicidally angry when the elevator doors shut on her. And as much as I'd rather not see Her Squickiness again, I think it'd be lame to just let her drop out of existence. What would be the point of all that build-up?

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2004-02-05 05:55 ]
I thought the twist at the end was great and it did wrap up her character. I was a little confused, again, though by Angel's feelings for Cordy. Who does he love? Buffy or Cordy. She clearly implied she loved him and he hinted at it. Oh well, Buffy has had strong feelings for two other men other than Angel and I feel that she loved them both but I do think Angel is her true love and I believe that is how it is for him too. So I think it is possible that he loved Cordy and maybe if given a chance they could've had a real relationship but Buffy's shadow would've always been looming, as it was for Riley.

But I did thoroughly enjoy the touching scenes between them and I did love the fact that she shielded her own body from them so they wouldn't see, but who called Angel then and what did they say? We assumed it was the hospital calling and saying she woke up but did they just call and say come to the hospital? Or did the Powers that Be make the call.

And did Cordy pass on the "sight" to Angel when she gave him one for the road?! My daughters and I think that's a very good possibility that she did. That's how she got them when Doyle gave her one final kiss.

And wasn't it wonderful to see that footage of Doyle! It was bittersweet for me just knowing that he is not only gone in Angel's story but he's gone in real life too.

I also loved the way the group seemed to really pull together and be like their old selves. Fred was awfully intense with her observations of Wesley doing the spell. Gunn wanted to get in on the action. Spike realized he was being used, admitted it and was willing to help out Angel. This was a great episode all around and it will be interesting to see how they all interact together in the upcoming episodes.

Also loved Harmony torturing Eve! Very well done and funny.

Does anyone think this is the last of Lindsey or perhaps he'll be rewarded for his innovative and creative way of trying to take over Wolfram and Hart and destroy Angel. I think Eve may be out and Lindsey may now take her place as the go between. I can't imagine them (ME) bringing him back only to have him wisked away half way through the season.
First off, congrats to everyone at Mutant Enemy & Angel for 100 episodes.
I agree, the show has missed Cordy much the same way Buffy missed Giles once he left the show. She/he may not have been the central character but in many ways Cordy, like Giles was the voice which grounded their respective series.
That said, Angel, at least to me, is starting to find its footing. I suppose when you redesign a show in such a major way it is going to take a slight period of adjustment for things to start moving on a solid path. I don't think there has been a real bad episode at all this year but rather that they are just getting better.
I really enjoyed tonight's episode. It was great to see Cordy. She was a great character but I've got to wonder if it wasn't just her she was making reference to with her first soldier down remark. Also, was it just me or did Fred give Gunn some strange looks during the episode?
Anyway, solid hour, I hope the ratings were strong and on to submarines. Makes me think I ought to go watch Below sometime before next week.
Oh, I'm sure we'll see more of Eve. She's more annoying than a cockroach, and you know those things last forever. I'm just saying if Lindsey can manage to fight his way out of the portal, I hope we won't have to watch those two together anymore. I love Lindsey. And Lindsey can be as evil as he wants. I just really really hope he is just using her for her connections to W&H because I would have to seriously question his taste and judgement otherwise.
LONG time lurker first time poster. Let me just say, Wow , damn good episode. A definite return to the begining of everything with the return of Cordy and, as best as could be done, Doyle. I wish they would have left in the last bit of Doyle's dialouge though ("Is that it? Am I done?")...it gets me everytime. I think the entire episode was summed up for me when, after what 4 seasons?, the Angel Hero theme returned at the end of Lindsey fight. Well Doyle's gone and now Cordy's gone as well. To borrow a line from B5 we are "return[ing] to the end of the begining."
>>Oh, I'm sure we'll see more of Eve<<

i'm sure too

she's signed for 13 episodes, so there's plenty more appearences for her to make
I don't understand how anyone could really feel as if this ties up Cordy's story...I am very dissapointed.
i totally loved this episode. i forgot how much i loved cordelia. this is the first season that i have really watched "angel," although i did get season one and two on dvd. but i loved the return of cordelia and am sorry to see her go. i thought the fight scenes were awesome. best they've been this season so far. the humor of cordelia was so great and added such a dimension of fun and greatness to the episode. and for once angel seemed like his old self. i think he even smiled more than once this episode (instead of just smirking every great while in previous episodes). all around, this was just awesome.
Simpleba - I understand that some people will never feel Cordelia's storyline is wrapped up so I'll try to explain my thoughts. It was nice to have a chance to see the old Cordelia that everyone agrees they loved and not the character that was later portrayed last season. I was happy that they allowed her to "come out" of her coma and have a chance to be the smart witted, charming Cordelia I remember. They also had her character leave in style after helping Angel get back on track. I prefer this ending to leaving her in a coma forever and either having them just get the phone call that she died or having the series end with her still in a coma. It was nice to see her have a chance to shine and go out with a bang.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Cordy made an appearance in the future but for now her storyline has been nicely wrapped up. Doesn't necessarily mean it has to be the end because, afterall, it would not be the first time a character has made a comeback after being thought dead and gone.
Though spoiler-free with regards to the ending, I somehow knew that Cordelia wasn't going to be in Europe come episode 101; nonetheless, I was surprised by the manner of her exit and genuinely moved by it. Prior to this episode, I was most affected this season by Wes' definitive show of love for Fred (and perhaps hatred for his father).

David Fury did an excellent job of making Cordy's return feel natural. I had worried that it would feel a bit contrived, but at no point in "You're Welcome" did my improbability sensor go off—it all fit with the series and the season—more than the Evil Cordy/Connor/Jasmine stuff ever did (or Buffy's recent apparent lack of trust in Angel, for that matter).

This episode left me with the hopes that Eve gets a proper killing (where's a giant, idling spaceship engine when you need one ;) and that Cordy has truly washed the grey from the Fang Gang's hats.

The show has been missing "a certain oomph". There have been good moments: Wes and Fred, Spike and Angel (last week specifically), and Cordelia and Angel to name a few; but overall this season has had fewer genuine emotional sparks to date than past seasons. I think the W&H arc, with it's segmentation of our beloved characters, has made it harder for the stories to resonate like they did when we felt as though the gang were the underdogs—unitied against evil.

Though the gang's separation is evidently part of the writers' plan (they do have one, right?), for the most part it has proven to be a lot to borrow on faith. Cordy's appearance brought back a sense of camaraderie and purpose—again, let's hope this is where the gang jetÚs back to Coolsville.

P.S. First post!
OHGosh!!!

I personally really didn't realize how much I missed Cordy. I unfortunatly missed last season so now i'm "catching up". But I loved how Cordy in Angel's presence has grown. The kiss killed me. My husband is currently laughing his tushy off at me because I was in tears. Angel told her he didn't need to get the call but....Cordy told him he did. I'm wishing now that in some way he wouldn't have.

Could there be some hope that Wolfram & Hart did pull some mind trick on Angel Maybe....just maybe... I love the chemistry that they have. UGH...
blwessels

I think your right. Cordy coming back put Angel back on track. To me for a VERY short period of time he seemed lost, like he was just going through the motions. In the last year he's lost a son whom only he remembers so he can only recall him in his own mind. If he were to talk to the gang they'd commit him. And he's lost a love.....I'm hoping though that this WAS a doing on the PTB & WR&H because they NEED to keep Cordy away from him.
Just adding my thoughts... I really enjoyed that episode; It was wonderful to see Cordy back, however briefly. It's unfortunate that whatever conflict went on between Charisma and Joss couldn't be resolved. I'm still depressed about the ending; Even though I knew it was coming, David and Charisma really played that scene well and it hit me hard. Also, who's going to tell poor Xander? All the girls he's ever dated have ended up dead. :(
I was flabbergasted. How could they? Oh yeah, it was a wonderful episode, but we have been waiting for months for it to come on, and than it is beautiful the whole Angel and Cordelia back to the basics, and than the kiss, it was beautiful, I could have cried I was so happy, and than with the same pen they turned around and broke my heart and made me cry. Why can't we ever have a happy ending, why does it always have to be about death?
The original "Donkey Kong", on an XBox, I don't think so! Spike's reaction when he died on it was just like me, so I forgave them the error.
Apart from that it was a brilliant episode, Cordy was Cordy, Harmony finally got to help the team, Lindsey and Angel had a rematch, that can't be the end of Lindsey, he'll be back, as will Eve.
I hated the Cordy/Angel romance, yet I didn't hate that last kiss they had, could be because I knew what was coming and wanted Cordy to remain for as long as possible.
I stand by my opinion that the show hasn't declined in quality since she left, but it was great seeing her again.
Also loved hearing that Angel victory theme or whatever you'd call it as he gets up and beats Lindsey, it's been a long time since we've heard that. Bits like that, and Darla's theme, are what we need a Buffy/Angel score CD for.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-02-05 14:46 ]
I wish I hadn't been spoiled for this one. (Everybody say 'duh') Enjoyed having Cordy back, too bad it didn't last long. Some of the editing was a bit rough - some jokes, moments of drama didn't get enough air to breathe (example: Cordelia waking up in the teaser.) Bit 'talky' in parts, but snappy dialogue made up for it.

Fred kind of fades into the background when there's a woman with a personality around.

Wesley looked hot. (That was probably the biggest surprise of all! Give AD another 5 years maturing and I may end up drooling.)

Oh and I LOVED the return of the blipverts, it made it feel like a good old fashioned Angel episode again.
"Fred kind of fades into the background when there's a woman with a personality around."

Yes! Yes! Yes! I really like Fred -- I find her character sweet, likeable and interesting (when she gets a story to do). But Cordelia just has so much more "oomph," if I may quote my earlier post. Fragile tiny little will o' the wisp Fred fades into the corner in comparison. I want more of that oomph back in the Angel mix. I'm not a devout Bring Cordy Back person, so I'm not arguing this from a particular fandom position. I just think Angel the Series and Angel the Character could use someone -- a woman, not necessarily as a love interest -- with a bit more of a bracing, comic, energizing spirit around.

Wesley did look hotter. Why? I sat up and took notice.

Anyone want to theorize on Fred's interesting looks at Wesley during the spell? And someone in this thread said they noticed Fred looking intensely at Gunn. Darn, I may have to watch this episode again soon which I'm sort of reluctant to do because of the, you know, sadness.
I can't believe Cordelia is dead!! How could Joss do this? So unfair.
The ooomph factor Cordelia added could be seen just from the previews of the 100th episode. Her character added so much to the show and to not have her on it is a travesty. Fred is sweet and Harmony is funny, but both lack the ability to be bitchy, funny, smart and sweet all at the same time the way Cordy could be. I think the reason Cordelia's character got boxed in is BECAUSE of the growing romance possibility with Angel. If that had been a non-issue, I think more could have been done with her.
As for the episode itself, I thought it was a good one, but the Lindsey/Eve storyline seemed to get wrapped up too easily...but maybe that is just how it seems right now. I liked that the group was working together more like they used to rather than relying on the Firm.
Another character who would be fun to bring back if possible is Drusilla. There are so many things that could be done with her character especially now with Angel et al... working at W&H. Anything is possible in the Wonderful World of Whedon (WWW). :)
Like everyone else I loved the episode and the best part about it, for me, was the tribute they made to Doyle. Seeing the tape, remembering how it all began made this 100th episode bittersweet. The little show that could, that is how I see Angel. This episode was everything a 100th episode should be; mention of the past and a hidden thank you to the fans who keep watching.

Loved the fight scene and it's always nice to see Lindsay with his shirt off!! I do hope they bring him back in some form. Better him than Eve. I loved the moments with Wes and Cordy and Cordy calling Eve Lilah junior...classic!! Is Fred finally noticing how sexy Wes is??? It's about time!!! The scenes with Angel and Cordy were so emotional packed there is really no need for words.

I really thought it was a good send off for Cordy. I was shocked by her death but she died a hero because she brought a champion back to the fight.
Just feeling sad she's gone. Never loved her, never hated her. Never bought the chemistry with Angel, but didn't judge. Whatever he needed, you know?
But now she's gone. Glad she got to go out like that - got to come back and be herself again a while and help the ones she loved. Like how she said the PTB owed her one. So true! And whether we ever see mention of her again on the show I'll always believe the PTB still have plans for her, are still using her for good on some plane and in some dimension somewhere.

Glad to see her back, sad to see her gone. It was a good episode.
Well done.
The original "Donkey Kong", on an XBox, I don't think so! Spike's reaction when he died on it was just like me, so I forgave them the error.

I was hoping I wasn't the only one who couldn't help but focusing, if just for a second, on Spike playing "Donkey Kong" on the...XBox? The video game geek in me couldn't help but get distracted by wrong that was, in so many ways. Though I, too, forgave them the error, because if I ever got my hands cut off and then re-attached, video games would so be the first thing I did afterwards. Well, that or cat's cradle. Or maybe the alphabet in sign language.

But I really did enjoy last night's episode, so much so that I'm about to watch it again in a few minutes. In addition to everything that has already been pointed out, I liked Cordelia's reaction upon seeing Spike for the first time. I was hoping for some kind of "He's not evil?" reaction, and I was not disappointed.

Also in accordance with my hopes, it was nice to see the return of "Old Cordelia" before her big send-off. Or would that be called "Young Cordelia?" I don't know. The funnier one.
Best episode of the season.
I'm going unspoiled this season and I'm so thankful or else I'd have missed out on the rainbow of emotions this episode inspired. I absolutely loved it, the dialogue, the Doyle video, the kiss. The ending was such a blow, I really didn't think she's die. I feel truly sad today, much like the way I felt when Buffy ended. Isn't that silly, real feelings for TV characters?
One thing that I have always respected about the Whedonverse shows, that even when I disagree with their decisions, they handle the deaths of characters so masterfully. It was heartbreaking, and all I want to do is watch it again (any online sources guys?).

God, I missed Charisma...I didn't realize how much I missed her till she was gone and i was hoping that all of the spoilers I had read were gone.

I don't like that next week's episode probably won't feature any mourning, but it was still so amazing.
Spike was obviously playing MAME on a modded Xbox, guys. That's pretty hardcore! Maybe Fred fixed it up for him.

Anyway, awesome, awesome episode.
lol InkyOne, that's probably it! I've always wondered how these 200 year old vampires have learned to drive, use computers etc. Maybe Spike thought it'd be easier to start playing video games if he started with one of the very first ones, so he spent $200 on a top of the range console and got Fred to install a NES emulator.
Raises another question, "Where do these vampires get money", like where did Angel get money from in order to get his car and apartment and offices after moving to LA, how on earth did they pay for a huge hotel when they were quite often complaining about how they didnt have enough business, how much did they used to charge their customers?
Doyle video..."no fair!"

I'm glad they let Cordy leave like they did though, I was envisioning a Warrenesque return of Eve, killing Cordy, and possibly just as Angel got back on track, he'd lose it and kill Eve. It would have been an interesting twist to the end of the show, but it would have felt too much like Warren for my taste.
Did anyone else get reminded of the Buffy: Chaos Bleeds game when they saw Spike, Angel and Cordy triggering the laser sensors and the zombies coming out to attack them? It was very similar to the Spike section of the game where he has to avoid the lasers! I wonder if it was a subtle nod to the video game.

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