Nice! We haven't seen the last of Lindsey!

Zeke | February 06, 18:54 CET

I am relieved to hear that Lindsey will be back. The seeming resolution of his storyline was too fast and pat for me. Here's to the continuing complexity of the Whedonverse!

Do we really know if the ME writers lurk here?

phlebotinin | February 06, 19:01 CET

It's been a long held belief in the Buffyverse fan community, that the writers lurk on boards to see what people think of the shows. If I was a betting man, I'd wager a couple of them have been here.

Simon | February 06, 19:07 CET

i KNEW that was cordys body in the hospital bed, glad to know now for sure

AngelicSlayer | February 06, 20:09 CET

Oh definately writers lurk and read what fans say. Back when Lois & Clark first started, they used to get printout of the mailing list (LOISCLA - anyone out there recognize that? hi! if you do!) and share it during meetings.

in a BTVS/ATS related(ish) note - Tim Minear used to come to FOLC events and chat in the IRC chat room. (He used to write for LNC)

If i were a writer for a major tv show, I'd totally snoop online and see whats being said about my work.

jenguin | February 07, 00:03 CET

I have actually talked to Tim Minear online. Very nice guy.

MegL42 | February 07, 00:28 CET

I think the writers focus on sites that have been around since the first few seasons, though.

Caroline | February 07, 00:34 CET

It's a lot easier to talk on this site though. Bronze Beta is so full of sigs, shoutouts, and unrelated posts that I don't know how any conversation can be had there.

prufrock | February 07, 02:53 CET

It's a community. They talk to each other. They're like family, and so, there's unrelated posts. You'll notice that Fury congratulated Blade on the birth of his baby girl. Some folks go way back, and when we had the Bronze, Joss and the other writers posted all the time. Ty King posted every night, and there was once a huge brawl between the writers and jeff pruitt, right on the board. Twas epic.

Allyson | February 07, 03:20 CET

Buffy communities are ace. I met my fiancee as a result of posting at one of them :). I've heard stories about that epic fight. This sort of stuff needs to be recorded for future generations, it's becoming folklore now. There's some wonderful PhD material in the Buffy fanverse.

Simon | February 07, 03:39 CET

Wow, what was the brawl between Jeff Pruitt and the writers about?

phlebotinin | February 07, 03:43 CET

It's all in the VIP archives, which is what you linked to in the above post.

Allyson | February 07, 03:44 CET

Thank you Allyson, I've only ever looked at the actors' posts at the Bronze from years ago. I shall start from the beginning and work myself to the present time sometime tomorrow. Occasionally I wish I had been around from the start, instead of discovering the Buffy internet thingy nearly three years ago. Anyway off to bed now, red wine and being overwhelmed by watching 'You're Welcome' earlier has made me very sleepy.

Simon | February 07, 04:00 CET

Goodness me, but I just read at least some of the Jeff Pruitt stuff for the first time in the Bronze archives. (For those as in the dark as I have been/still am, check out May 17 & 22 of 2000, plus June 22 of 2000). Wow. I wonder where this url is that Pruitt keeps talking about where he posted his "parable?"

I know this Pruitt/Fury/Whedon stuff is old news to a lot of you, but for us posting board new-timers it's fascinating, and probably just the tip of a most interesting iceberg. The community that these folks at the Bronze and Bronze Beta have built is complex and deep. Simon, you're right -- there are all sorts of PhD topics that could grow out of the Bronze and other posting board interactions. I'm in the middle of writing a boring old PhD right now and believe me, I wish I could switch topics.

phlebotinin | February 07, 05:23 CET

It's an old community, but I think The Well can claim the oldest, as it began in the 80s.

The Bronzers are one of the oldest communities that still has a bit of cohesion, despite losing their home three years ago. Everyone sort of scattered to the winds.

Allyson | February 07, 05:37 CET

Yeah, a psychiatrist would have a field day reading Jeff Pruitt's posts. I've always wondered how much work he lost for that whole fiasco.

prufrock | February 07, 05:45 CET

I wasn't a big Bronze reader, but I remember when the Pruitt stuff went down.

I found a link to his "Parable of the Knight". It's long and rambling, but it's something all right.

I remember sympathizing with him at the time. Reading his posts again, he seems really whacked out.

By the by, this would be my delurking post ;)

koku | February 07, 06:42 CET

Thanks for posting the "Parable" link, koku, especially as an act of delurking! The "Parable" plus Pruitt's series of upset posts are together one weird read. I cannot know what went on behind the scenes at BtVS and perhaps Pruitt and his girlfriend (now wife) were wronged. Who knows? I sure don't. What comes across is how terribly upset Pruitt was.... The most interesting part is how the Bronzers moved on despite the epic meltdown, which is what strong communities do.

The Well? Never heard of it before, Allyson. Thanks for enlightening me.....

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2004-02-07 07:22 ]

phlebotinin | February 07, 07:38 CET

Now if only I knew who this Jeff Pruitt guy was, this would be much more interesting...

MindPieces | February 07, 11:48 CET

Jeff Pruitt was the stunt coordinator on BTVS (for the first 4 years, right?), and his wife is Sophia Crawford who was the stunt double for BtVS during the same time.

That was one wierd story (the parable). It's all about perspective though. From somebody else's perspective (I mean someone else on the crew), it probably looked very different.

forcorreo | February 07, 11:58 CET

Yes, after reading over some of the posts I figured out that he must have been the stunt coordinator. He seems slightly kooky with that whole Knight story though. I guess I'm getting into this intriguing drama about 4 years too late.

MindPieces | February 07, 12:05 CET

He also was a second unit Director on BTVS, as well as Spike and Xander's stunt double early on.I think I'm going to have to read through the archives now to find out more, cause like a lot of people I came to BTVS late.

RavenU | February 07, 12:26 CET

I read through some of the posts but mostly they were from Jeff Pruitt. Are there writers' responses that I just missed?

forcorreo | February 07, 12:57 CET

As far as I can tell, only Joss and David Fury respond to Pruitt. And David Fury only in a very roundabout way.

phlebotinin | February 07, 18:13 CET

Just read this whole Jeff Pruitt thing. The internet is so seductive because it makes it possible for people to rashly spout nonsense before their "internal censor" activates. This is a great example of someone committing professional suicide on the internet. I hope this guy has been able to re-build his career.

I like Whedonesque because the posters seem to really enjoy debating the good and the bad of each episode. By the way, I have now watched You're Welcome twice and feel it is one the best Angel's ever. No snarky critiques for this one. Thank You Mr. Fury.

vpecoraro | February 07, 19:30 CET

I couldn't find any of the Joss/Fury responses. Oh well, guess I just didn't look hard enough.

Anyway, he does mention a lot of jobs in subsequent posts, it sounds like he was able to 'rebuild his career'.

forcorreo | February 07, 20:30 CET

forcorreo, Joss and Fury respond to the Parable on the May 17, 2000 archives. Joss in particular, Fury not so much.

phlebotinin | February 07, 20:38 CET

I remember reading the Pruitt stuff, and his parable, at the time, though not at the Bronze. A few things struck me.
He said a dangerous stunt they his girlfriend was going to do had been set up wrong (in the parable and directly, with detail, in an interview) and he asked for it to be changed. After the stunt nearly killed Sophia he found out it had never been changed. Isn't that the sort of thing a stunt coordinator should double check personaly? Even if it wasn't his girlfriend! How can he blame someone else when he didn't bother to check it himself?

He also pointed out a badly shot stunt, where the camera angle makes it clear that a punch missed by a mile, and blamed this on someone else. But again, he was stunt coordinator and has been a second unit director. It's his job to know where the camera is and plan the stunt.

And I remember watching the first post-Pruitt episode, Buffy vs Dracula and thinking "Whoaa! The stunts are much better!"

zz9 | February 07, 23:18 CET

Hee, zz9 -- I actually remember feeling exactly the opposite; whatever Pruitt's personality failings may have been, I thought he did great work bringing a gritty, realistic feel to the fights. The upgrade in the quality of the action scenes after first he came on in season 2 was extremely apparent. He brought us, among other things, the big Buffy/Angel sword duel in the season 2 finale, and the kick-ass Buffy/Faith battle in "Revelations" during season 3.

After he left, things got much more gymnastic-y and less grounded in real-world physics. However, the change was most noticeable after Sophia Crawford also left the show a year later; the fight scenes at the beginning of season 6 were especially weak. (Though, to be fair, they certainly improved steadily over the remainder of the show's run.) If I remember correctly, they needed three different new stuntwomen just to fill Crawford's shoes on set, which dramatically reduced their ability to film complex scenes, since they were always having to switch out one double for another, like when they went from hand-to-hand combat to a shot of Buffy being thrown into something,

I remember being mesmerized by Pruitt's meltdown when it happened; it definitely shattered my illusions about everyone on the show being one big happy family. I just checked his IMDb listing, and he does seem still to be working, so luckily for him this wasn't a total career-ender....

Lolly | February 08, 00:57 CET

Lolly - Sophia did end up leaving when her husband left, the team of stunt doubles for Buffy came in at the start of season 5

aapac | February 08, 02:11 CET

Did some more digging, found a copy of that interview that Jeff and Sophia did around that time. Fills in a lot of the blanks in non-parable form.

Pretty scandalous stuff. SMG got Charisma kicked over to Angel because CC started getting more press attention??? Seems kind of dubious.

koku | February 08, 02:29 CET

koku - where did you find the interview and is it online if so can you post the link to it?

Not that I'm nosey or anything - ok well yes I am but I always find the politics of Hollywood more entertaining than some of the entertainment they put out, br it good or bad.

RavenU | February 08, 02:37 CET

You're right, aapac -- after I posted I went back to re-read the Bronze archives and saw that I was remembering wrong. Looking back after having had my memory nudged, I realized that it was in fact the fight scenes at the beginning of season 5, not 6, that I felt were particularly weak.

Anyway. After all the acrimony that Pruitt's departure engendered, and the very public battle waged via the Bronze and that interview, I am actually somewhat surprised that there weren't more rumblings about problems on the set after he had gone. Either the ME publicity department really managed to clamp down, or the atmosphere really improved in his absence.

Lolly | February 08, 03:00 CET

One thing that got better after Sophia left was the believability that the stunt doubles were actually SMG. Before Season 5 whenever action started happening Buffy suddenly developed a lot more muscles and a bigger chest. It was almost like watching the Hulk.

prufrock | February 08, 04:00 CET

I don't know about that prufrock - I remember watching Season 5 and thinking how much more well developed her stunt doubles were at least muscle wise - cause SMG had no defintion at all in her arms but at least they seem closer to her portionally than the woman (Sophia) they use before at least for over all build.

RavenU | February 08, 04:13 CET

Joss said in the commentary for Hush that they talk about Buffy "strapping on her 'fighting boobs'" because of the visible difference between SMG and her stunt doubles!

And the theory about "SMG got Charisma kicked over to Angel because CC started getting more press attention???" seems very doubtful. If you're the big star and you want a pretender knocked down you DON'T get them a big fat promotion to female lead on a new show! CC getting fired would be one thing ( and actually happened several years later after SMG quit and had no power....) but getting a starring role on Angel and lots MORE publicity... Seems an odd thing to do if SMG wanted her out?

My impression is that SMG is a hardworking profesionial, in an industry that lives on stress and pressure. I have no doubt that she could be demanding, but show me a star of a successful show that isn't! But I have seen many many direct quotes from people, both on the show and way after they left, saying how great she is. Maybe Jeff didn't get on with her, but that doesn't mean that everyone hated her, or that she's evil personified.

And the fact that he appears to simply not understand why Joss would be upset about what he said publicly ( and posting a URL on a top posting board to a thinly fictionalised story IS public!) and didn't want to discuss things in front of complete strangers says a lot. In thiat thread Joss's response was measured, polite and expressed his view without being negative. But Jeff keeps on repeaing that Joss 'mocked' him.

I guess it's all very old news now anyway...

zz9 | February 08, 05:18 CET

Amen, zz9. SMG getting Charisma kicked over to Angel because of jealousy over press coverage makes no sense. Whatsoever. None. It's unfortunate that wild accusations and hotly stated paranoid theories are the ones that still reverberate. SMG might have been a real prima donna but I'm not going to get my proof of that in this guy's posts/interviews/parables. Though I will admit that they're impossible not to devour. Koku, thanks for posting the links.

phlebotinin | February 08, 05:38 CET

Back to Lindsey's possible return to Angel post-100th episode: each time Lindsey rebelled in season two against W&H, he was paradoxically rewarded by W&H (asked to stay on, promoted, etc.) I'm wondering if the Senior Partners won't again be impressed by Lindsey's chutzpah in his latest endeavor and reward him by......making him one of them?! Or something. Just a thought. I am unspoiled, so this is shooting in the dark.

phlebotinin | February 08, 05:56 CET

Thanks phlebotinin (for the now much higher up comment pointing out which posts Joss and Fury's replies were in). I had looked at that page but hadn't scrolled down far enough to get to the major comment on the parable...

forcorreo | February 08, 11:31 CET

It's interesting that that interview w/ Jeff and Sophie is archived at a site revolving around SMG.
And- I hadn't meant to really bring up this whole Jeff Pruitt issue again but I just want to say 1 more thing about it- zz9, you took the words right out of my mouth. Everything I wanted to express about the situation you already have.

forcorreo | February 08, 11:50 CET