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"Are you saying I'm some sort of Viking?"
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May 31 2012

On Loki's motivations and plans. "Loki doesn't want to rule Earth."

And it just reinforces the idea that Joss needs to do the sequel.
This seems very likely! The author certainly presents a good argument. ;)
Only works if for some reason or another Loki cannot just waltz his way to Asgardean gates and beg forgiveness and reconciliation. Of course nobody will trust him but going through all the trouble and making himself a target to extraterrestrials to 'just' be brough back in in chains and gag sounds like a bit of an overkill.

The whole thing works though *if* Loki just plain wants to have fun - before being captured and all. Also, even though he might not want to rule Earth, sticking it to Thor is just too much fun to not go for it. Gods, and their toys.
I certainly thought that they beat Loki just a bit too easily. I thought they captured him too easily to begin with (Really? He just hung out on the side of the mountain waiting for them to stop smashing each other into kindling?) but in the end, after Iron Man took the missile for a one-way trip, Loki just "went along quietly."

It sure felt like "this isn't the end, this isn't all there is" by the end. And that was before the mid-credits scene. (Silly other people in the theater left before that scene. I stayed until the white screen at the true end.)
This is damn cool.

Dorotea, I don't know much about the Marvel universe beyond the movies, but it didn't seem like Loki could go anywhere without the tesseract, which was on Earth ... I could be wrong, but my impression was that he had control of Dr. Selvig even before he showed up at the Dark Energy lab, and was using him to open the first unstable portal. Barton assumed someone was opening the portal from the other side because he trusts Selvig, but was he right to do so? (Dr. Selvig mutters "not yet" under his breath in that scene - perhaps this meant Loki was arriving ahead of schedule?)

The Asgardians didn't know he was alive, let alone where he was, so they couldn't bring him back. He could have hitched a ride with those aliens, but even they needed the tesseract to get to Earth, so it's possible Asgard was out of their reach as well. Besides, what would have been in it for them?

This way Loki gets back to Asgard along with another shot at the tesseract and that glove thingy. We've seen that he has his ways of getting out of custody, and I don't think it's a stretch to imagine he has allies in Asgard as well.
I thought they captured him too easily to begin with (Really? He just hung out on the side of the mountain waiting for them to stop smashing each other into kindling?)

He wants to be captured so he can work his eristic mojo on Our Heroes up in the sky-carrier. That he hangs around is not hard to explain. That Our Heroes aren't a bit more surprised/suspicious about that (although Captain America does express some suspicions) is a bit more of a plot hole.

Still, it doesn't seem as though Loki actually has powers of teleportation, so what is he supposed to do? I mean, he could run away and hide, I suppose, but it's hard to imagine that that would do more than delay the inevitable--and not by very much.
Dorotea, I don't know much about the Marvel universe beyond the movies, but it didn't seem like Loki could go anywhere without the tesseract, which was on Earth ... I could be wrong, but my impression was that he had control of Dr. Selvig even before he showed up at the Dark Energy lab, and was using him to open the first unstable portal. Barton assumed someone was opening the portal from the other side because he trusts Selvig, but was he right to do so? (Dr. Selvig mutters "not yet" under his breath in that scene - perhaps this meant Loki was arriving ahead of schedule?)

Interesting... that would explain the after-credits scene of Thor.
Yoink, you hit the nail on the head. He most definitely wants to be captured, which begs the question, why wasn't everyone questioning his NOT attempting escape? He just chilled on Pride Rock and went prisoner quietly afterwards. Fury mentioned the whole "he's the only one who wants to be here" thing, but the team gave it little notice other than that.

It was also a bit silly that he suited down and surrendered once Iron Man joined Captain America and Black Widow's flying-weapon-vehicle-thing in Germany. This might actually be an interesting writing choice instead of a hole... perhaps Tony's hubris causes that oversight.
I thought the whole reason Black Widow goes to talk to him was that she knew he had an agenda for being captured. Fury suspected it, Cap suspected it, but they were also preoccupied with finding the tesseract. They needed him, he was their only chance of finding it, regardless of whether he wanted to be there or not. Also, Cap, Stark, and Banner were distracted by whether or not SHIELD was planning on using the tesseract for WMD's, exactly as Loki wanted.

Plus, someone mentioned in one of the other discussions that the scepter was influencing them? This was a lot clearer the second time I saw it. Stark and Cap start furrowing their brows during their argument, like they're aware something is wrong, they're not themselves. And then Banner picks up the scepter without knowing what he's doing. This also might explain his failure to control his transformation.
zoinkers I felt that, too - that the scepter was influencing them in some way. Everyone seemed to go all irrational and quickly hostile when they were gathered around it. I don't think that was solely because they didn't trust each other, or that there was an overload of testosterone - it was a big "You're doing exactly what he wants you to do! Stop fighting!" moment.

I wish I'd had someone with me last night, just so I'd have had someone to lean over to and whisper "Why don't they just get out of there and cool off?" On the other hand, I was the only one there (out of five people) who was a Whedon fan & appreciated his humor; quite often no one else laughed/reacted to the same things I did.
As much as I love Loki, he isn't a very good villain.

He uses the good guys, and his connection with one of them, his brother, as transportation. He's naive and arrogant in that he doesn't think killing people will get him into any trouble, doesn't even give it a second thought. As the leader of the Chitauri told him, his ambition is small. He brags that he's superior to them all, yet deep down knows he's not. He wants to be one of them so badly that he plays bad just so he can play at all.

His impetus (jealousy, feeling betrayed) for doing all this isn't sustainable. He looks at Thor with such love, and cries when he stabs him, using a 'weapon' he knows will cause little or no harm. When Thor grabs him on Stark's building and forces him to look at all the devastation he's caused, Loki's expression is fear. His words, "It's too late", suggest that he wishes he hadn't done this, even regrets it, but now he knows there's no turning back. Deal with the devil. So he stabs Thor and rolls off the rooftop.

He's a spoiled brat who ultimately wants everyone to love/respect/admire him. I really believe Thor 2 will be the start of Loki's redemption. Maybe Joss (in Avengers 2, providing he writes it) will eventually give him an Elizabeth Taylor medallion, fit for a champion. That's what Loki really wants. Maybe he can earn it.
I think Loki got out of his depth very quickly and didn't know what he was doing. I actually did hope that Thor might have been able to persuade him to help stop the invasion.
Simon, I hoped that too, but I don't think Loki understood the tesseract well enough. He may well have been able to close it with his staff, provided Thor used a little lightning as booster.

That woulda been cool.
Thor gave Loki two chances to return to Asgard with him. He did not have to go back in chains, as part of a plan. I side with Willowy and Simon. Loki is damaged goods, and part of him knows that.

(I remember a comic where Adam Warlock tells Thanos that, subconsciously or not, Thanos sets himself up to fail. Not as part of a master plan, but that he could not deal with success. Loki, in this movie, might fall into this camp.)
I think Loki always has a contingency plan. If he had succeeded in defeating the Avengers and taking Earth, he could have then mounted an attack on Asgard in force with the Chitauri and whomever he managed to possess with his scepter. But Earth was never his main objective, and going back in custody is okay with him too.

But yes, I agree that he is emotionally damaged and the primary reason he didn't want to accept Thor's offer is because he was too proud.

You may be right about setting himself up to fail, at least in the long run. Underneath everything, he is used to being the angry, scheming underdog. If he truly won, he probably wouldn't know what to do with himself. Recall Coulson's last(?) words to him: "You're going to lose ... you lack conviction."
Coulson: "You're gonna lose."

Loki: "Am I?"

Coulson: It's in your nature."

Loki: "Your heroes are scattered, your flying fortress falls from the sky. Where is my disadvantage?"

Coulson: "You lack conviction."

Loki: "I don't think I - "

**BLAST FROM COULSON'S HUGE GUN**

Coulson: "So that's what it does."
(Spoilers for Serenity on the off chance that any new fans here haven't seen it)

Nice, zoinkers!

Not thinking you need to use the spoiler tag. :)
He looks at Thor with such love, and cries when he stabs him, using a 'weapon' he knows will cause little or no harm. When Thor grabs him on Stark's building and forces him to look at all the devastation he's caused, Loki's expression is fear. His words, "It's too late", suggest that he wishes he hadn't done this, even regrets it, but now he knows there's no turning back. Deal with the devil. So he stabs Thor and rolls off the rooftop.

Hmmm. I'm obviously going to have to watch this again. I didn't see Loki "crying" when he stabbed Thor--in my memory he kinda gloats about it; isn't that when he says something about Thor being vulnerable because of sentimentality? And while it's possible that the "It's too late" contains a grain of genuine sentiment, in the scene it plays simply as a deliberate ruse--he makes Thor think that he's potentially persuadable in order to get Thor to drop his guard enough for Loki to stab him.
When Thor makes his plea, Loki absorbs, reflects, responds... then rejects. All in four seconds.

"Sentiment!", He scoffs, while stabbing a tiny two-inch blade into his brother, the god. Don't tell me for a second that he thought Thor would actually be physically hurt by it.

Also don't tell me you didn't see the tear rolling down Loki's face as he stabbed him. The stab was a distraction, but nothing more. And his gloating is all empty bravado. He knows he has no choice.

As Hiddles says, "Thor and Loki get together and they knock ten bells out of each other. That's how they communicate."
Also don't tell me you didn't see the tear rolling down Loki's face as he stabbed him.

I'm not sure why you think I'd lie about this. I don't remember him doing so. I think the sequence here is important, however. You said that he "cries when he stabs him" which implies that we are to infer that he is crying because he stabs him (it seems a little odd that you emphasize both the insignificance of the wound and the depth of Loki's pain in causing it--the same Loki who could happily "test" Thor's immortality by sending the canister/prison hurtling towards earth not long before--something that we were clearly meant to understand as representing grave peril for Thor).

But is this right? When does Loki begin to cry in the scene? If he begins before the stabbing then the crying is simply part of his ruse--part of his play on Thor's "sentiment." That he would still have tears on his face as he stabs Thor (and immediately gloats in triumph) would hardly suggest that there is any causal relationship between the tears and the stabbing.

I mean, I'm not saying that you're wrong that later development of the story could be worked in such a way as to suggest that Loki is genuinely conflicted in this moment. But within the film as it currently exists that can only be an hypothesis. It is equally possible that the tears and the look of fear/love etc. are simply a ruse--that they represent a psychopath playing on Thor's emotions and do not represent any real feelings on Loki's part.
It's not a ruse. Loki never plays artifice with Thor. They know each other too well. Loki also knows that he will be at odds with Thor almost every time. That's by Loki's choice. It's the way to ensure Thor's continued attention.

He drops Thor in the box because he wants him out of his hair and he knows he'll survive. He stabs him with the tiny knife for the same reason.

Loki would much rather be the reflection he sees in Thor's eyes. He just knows he's not. And yes, he cries because he wants to be.
Excellent! Thank you - this explanation clears up the nagging questions I had about Loki. I'm just embarrassed that I didn't see it myself. Now the character, his reactions, and his choices make perfect sense (to me).
I was so convinced that Loki was under the thrall of the Tesseract (and Thanos) via the spear as we saw Clint and Selvig and that it took the funny Hulk smash to get it out of his head.
anca, that would've been cool, too, though I admit I like seeing Loki operate his bratty (KNEEL!), evil machinations using his own misguided, crazy-assed motivation.
"Also don't tell me you didn't see the tear rolling down Loki's face as he stabbed him."

...?

I've seen it 5 times and I don't remember seeing a tear roll down his cheek. Saying this doesn't remotely mean that I don't believe you, nor did it when Yoink said it - he even pointed out he'd have to look for it next time (as will I). Just... I don't understand the confrontationalness there... If we didn't see it we didn't see it...

---Delay---

Gif!
Alright, this has two gifs of the scene, and a very lovely paragraph. It took 10 minutes of staring at the second gif for me to finally see it, it's just as he says sentiment. 10 minutes to see it though! And with it being upclose! (although grainy) Some people just don't have very good eyes!
It's very clear in the movie. Next time you go you'll see it. Loki's tear in that scene speaks volumes. I can't tell if Tom actually did it or they added it in post, but it was a great move.
It's not a ruse. Loki never plays artifice with Thor.

That's simply untrue. For example, he tricks him into the prison/capsule thing with a ruse--and he says at the time that it's a ruse that Thor keeps falling for. You're just a little too wedded to your hypothesis here, Willowy--you're ignoring every fact that happens not to support it.
He drops Thor in the box because he wants him out of his hair and he knows he'll survive.

Oh, and this, too, is saying more than you can possibly know. Loki says, to Thor, that by dropping him in the box he is "testing" whether or not Thor is immortal, as the humans believe him to be. Now, it is not, in fact, canon in the Marvel universe that Thor is immortal (although he is certainly nearly invulnerable), and we are clearly meant to read Thor's actions in the falling box as pretty desperate--he is not at all certain that he could walk away from the crash if he just passively rode the box to the ground.

If we are to understand the both Loki and Thor are sure that falling in the box cannot seriously harm Thor (as you suggest) then the whole scene is absurd. Who is Loki supposed to be talking to when he says "Let's test that theory" before pushing the button to drop the box? If Thor knows that the fall can't harm him, then it's an absurdly idle threat. If Thor doesn't know it then why would Loki? And, again, if Thor knows it, why is he struggling madly to find a way out of the box as it falls?

No, clearly Loki genuinely believes that falling in the box has a serious chance of inflicting grave and even possibly fatal injuries on Thor, and Thor agrees with his assessment. Nothing else makes any sense of the scene. And that makes your reading of the stabbing scene also incoherent. Why would Loki weep at inflicting a relatively insignificant wound on Thor when he openly and happily gloated at the prospect of (at least) seriously maiming him?

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