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August 14 2012

(SPOILER) Angel & Faith #13 preview pages. CBR has the preview up for the third part of the "Family Reunion" arc.

Awesome. Looking forward to it. All these characters are so dark as it is, it's so interesting to see Quortoth bring out those urges
I'm torn as always between intrigue into Faith and the vague sense that all of this is sort of contrived to define Angel and his core conflicts as far away from Season 8 as possible. Angelus is all that there is dark about him, apparently. That is the message I continue to get from this book. Angelus is his dark side, the guy he is when he has his soul has relatively few issues, masked villain phase or no masked villain phase.

I don't know how I feel about Faith relating what she's going through in Quor'toth to Angel vs. Angelus. Not even because I don't really find the Angel/Angelus thing all that intriguing anymore, but because... didn't Faith already know what this was like? I'm remembering her homicidal blipverts from both "Who Are You?" and "Sanctuary". This isn't really new ground in that we've already seen her visibly struggle against her darkest impulses.
I'm liking Faith's take on Angel. Before the start of season 9, she really hadn't spent long stretches of time with him except for a few episodes. She's also been playing on the good side for some time now. I'm buying that Quor'toth is bringing out her darker feelings. Why can't she revisit them?

I liked her comparison because for me it reveals the possibility that Angelus is a bit more active then Angel has ever admitted, consciously or subconsciously.

I have always felt that those elements were impacting Angel and I feel that Faith acknowledged that possibility here. Or am I reading this wrong?

I liked these panels a lot, I especially enjoyed the preview of the art.

[ edited by hann23 on 2012-08-15 00:58 ]
I like how this idea of Quor'toth bringing out the darker urges relates to late Season 3, where Cordelia's 'demony' powers calmed Connor down - she herself states that he was full of anger, and it's something that the dimension could have caused (along with Holtz's influence)
I like the idea that Angelus is always in Angel's head, talking to him, urging him to do things. Not to mention he does have an addict's personality to begin with. (Probably a sex addiction from what we saw of Liam and maybe a touch of alcoholism.) So add on Angelus on his back . . .

It's not like Spike. William was a good guy, a gentle soul. Sure he toughed up, but that soft touch is still there, and it's enough where he can fight his demon. (Plus with Spike, I bet that demon probably didn't get a lot to work with.)

So yes, I really love the idea that Angel always has Angelus on his back and is constantly fighting him. And occasionally he gives in. Then, on the flip side, there's Spike who probably gives and takes with the demon with in him, because he really doesn't slip like Angel does.
It's not like Spike. William was a good guy, a gentle soul.

Eh? Of the two, while soul-lesses , Spike was in canon a 'serial rapist' by his own admission ( his 'the things I used to do to young girls like you' to Dawn.) How does this translate onto 'gentle' ? I suggest we stick to the issue at hand discussion here, not divulge into character assassination speculations.
Elf was talking about William as a person, before becoming a vampire and even then, William was molded into Spike. As a human he was a good guy and a gentle soul. Spike as vampire isn't who William was but who he became under the guiding hand of Darla, Drusilla, and of course, Angelus.
William was but who he became And this makes demon of Spike's better than Angelus, how? If Spike can be so completely swayed by influence of other demons (while a vampire without a soul) does not it make his basic element/character even more feeble (or more so) than Angel's? Meaning Spike's vampire demon is so interchangeable - it can easily adapt to external pressure and change at request, without requiring much of an internal struggle. Adaptability is a key here. If tomorrow Spike ends up in a society of Alien Bugs who are adopt to a moral codex of, say, eating all inferior grubs on hatch - because that benefits all the rest of their society - should we applaud Spike's adaptability to this particular moral codex as well?

[ edited by dorotea on 2012-08-15 05:24 ]
I wasn't saying it makes Spike's demon any better. I'm saying that as a person, William was a better man than Liam was.

And I wouldn't say that William was any more feeble than Liam, I'd say it's the opposite. Liam, from what we've seen, when he was turned, followed Darla and became Angelus without much reservation.

William on the other hand, he was still William for quite some time before adopting the moniker Spike, and when he did that, it was a rather drastic change from who William was, a new accent, a new look, a whole new persona, while Angelus was just the extremes of Liam.

Also, as we see with Spike and Angelus, without souls, Angelus never came across as a person capable of doing good things where Spike did. It's not saying that Spike's demon was weaker than Angelus', I'm saying that Liam was a weaker man than William (who was more capable of fighting off the demon inside him than Liam was.)
I'm saying that Liam was a weaker man than William (who was more capable of fighting off the demon inside him than Liam was.) And you justify this ( fighting off his demon ) how ? William was a better man - but as a demon Spike was a serial rapist, enjoyed the slaughter of children ( Vienna orphanage) , young girls ( fixation on Slayers), and tortured his victims with railroad spikes ? Am I missing something?
And Angelus was guilty of much more and far worse. Spike did horrible things, I'm not saying he didn't in any way! He was a vampire, he had no soul or a true moral compass. He did bad things, and was surrounded by people who brought out the monster in him.

But as we saw at times in seasons 5 and 6 of Buffy, he also did genuinely good things just for the sake of doing something good. There were times when he was more man than monster without a soul. There were times where we saw William, and NOT Spike in him.
But as we saw at times in seasons 5 and 6 of Buffy, he also did genuinely good things just for the sake of doing something good. There were times when he was more man than monster without a soul. There were times where we saw William, and NOT Spike in him.

So, you are saying a vampire (serial killer) showing capacity to love his pet is somewhat morally superior to a vampire (serial killer) who does not show it? Gulp. Where was William when that homeless guy begged for his life - but 'they bit even harder'? And you say that a vampire with a soul who feels compelled to struggle/evaluate/contain his darker side on a daily basis - is less of a good guy than a vampire with a soul who can breeze past keeping an eye on his inner demon - because he is 'surely' morally superior ( he was a better man after all) ? Something is surely amiss here.
I believe that someone who can show an act of compassion and do something genuinely good, and even attempt to try to better themselves (Spike fighting to get a soul to be a better man)is indeed morally superior to someone who has no remorse what-so-ever. I admitted that Spike did horrible things. I'm fairly certain I said that multiple times.

Liam got turned, he gave into being a vampire almost right away. William got turned, he stayed very much part of who he was for some time before giving in and becoming a completely DIFFERENT person. And he STAYED that person for some time, and he did HORRIBLE things. I admit that freely. But he also started to do GOOD things.

I'm not saying we should make him a saint, but you can't just ignore that he did do good things for the sake of doing good, and you can't just say they don't matter because of the bad he's done. And I was never comparing Angel to Spike, I was comparing ANGELUS to Spike, and LIAM to William. There is a difference.

I'm sorry but it seems to me that you're not understanding what I was originally trying to say and what I'm saying now. I don't wish to get into an argument so I'm just going to leave this here.
Tremendous! The inner drama! So looking forward to it!

Somehow I always imagined Quor'toth as a dark, fierce, nightmarish wilderness without any buildings.
I suggest we stick to the issue at hand discussion here, not divulge into character assassination speculations.


It would be a good idea if you took your own advice and didn't jump down people's throats.
Wahoo! Drama – in the issue, of course. I love the idea that the darkest parts of these characters’ minds are about to explode. Rebellious and stab happy Faith – Dark Willow – Primal Conner – Angelus! Who could ASK for a better comic than this one?!

Live Through This – Awesome
Daddy Issues – Spectacular
One-Shots – Hilarious
Family Reunion – Totally Shiny
I think that throats were jumped down in equal measure, but my apologies for getting involved in the first place.

Great preview anyhow. Maybe Faith is getting a bit too emotional/carried away (once again) with her self-analysis and projecting - but it is quite understandable, having Quar'Toth effect on and all. I would not give all the bold-fonted grades to the previous A&Farcs, but this one truly shines.
dorotea you've been very specifically warned, don't push your luck here.

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