Whedonesque : Comments on 2989 : HERC's Seen One of the Last Nine Angels!

Huh???

I've been having trouble all week trying to get AICN to load. Must be trouble with their server thingy. Anyway this as usual is the Whedonesque discussion thread so I'll bung that in the description in a couple of minutes.

Simon | February 19, 03:00 CET

Yeah I think there's a lot of people checking out the Angel articles on AICN this week. Can't get on it no matter when I try.

EdDantes | February 19, 04:11 CET

I've had trouble loading AICN for the last couple months or so...I don't know what the deal is. I guess it's just a popular site.

R³ | February 19, 05:48 CET

Ok, Just saw the episode, since this is usually the Whedonesque episode discussion place, i just have to say one thing. WHAT THE FU*K IS THE WB THINKING!!!!!!!???!!!!!!???????!!!!!!! That's all.

400lb_Gorilla | February 19, 06:59 CET

LAUGHED SO HARD!!! "I'm made of felt and my nose can come off" LOLOLOL "Is there a Geppetto in the house?" LOLOLOL I thought this episode rocked!!! I want my very own Angel puppet!!!!!

Coll | February 19, 07:01 CET

This was classic Whedon at its very best. I loved the show.

Tracy | February 19, 07:03 CET

The bit about selling their souls to save a low-rated show? Too priceless. Too ironic!

melsta | February 19, 07:05 CET

oh god that song is going to be stuck in my head for the rest of my life.

narky | February 19, 07:05 CET

Every shot of Alexis Denisof, he looked like he was on the verge of cracking up, which made me laugh harder. Heh. :)

Loved "Is there a Gepetto in the house?" and "Screw edutainment!" The fight between Spike and the Angel puppet was hilarious.

Not sure about the episode overall, though I liked it and was entertained. I don't feel Wes/Fred although I might buy it.

And also? DAVID FURY!!!

witless | February 19, 07:07 CET

I loved every part of it! Lots of fun moments and didn't the Angel puppet really capture the look of David Boreanaz? It was really believable to me that it was him. I loved every single moment of the scene with Spike especially with the elevator doors closed and you could hear Angel beating the crap out of him. Also loved it when the puppet vamped out. They did a great job! And was that David Fury?!

But the episode was bitter sweet as well knowing that the show is ending and it just makes no sense to me why!

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 07:07 CET

400lb_Gorilla said, WHAT THE FU*K IS THE WB THINKING!!!!!!!???!!!!!!???????!!!!!!! That's all.

I second that emotion. The episode was both very funny & very creepy and a great example of the kind of TV ME does better than almost anyone else. The show really has found it's way through the change and now the plug is going to be pulled. Ugh.

That was David Fury as the puppet maker...wasn't it?

I was watching tonight and laughing but also feeling pretty sad. I'm going to miss this show. I hope against hope that UPN comes through or the show does move to some kind of direct-to-DVD kind of format. Something, anything.

NOLA64 | February 19, 07:08 CET

I am curious as to what tonight's rating were for Angel.

Tracy | February 19, 07:11 CET

Fantastic! I had my doubts, but goddamn if it wasn't a distillation of everything that makes Angel a great show. The creepiness of the kids' life force being drained (accompanied by the that post-mortem smile!), the complex character inter-relationships, the clever in-jokes (a T.V. show creator selling his soul for ratings), and the audacity to push the envolope by including puppets (swearing puppets, no less) in prime-time network television.

That damn song is gonna be stuck in my head for days...self-esteem is for everybody!

ringworm | February 19, 07:12 CET

We have to wait until morning to find that out but it will fun to see.

RavenU | February 19, 07:13 CET

Are you guys all liking Nina the Werewolf or not? I am not.

Tracy | February 19, 07:16 CET

You know, I always wondered about Barney... what do ya think, evil or not?

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 07:16 CET

Just so everybody knows, yes that was David Fury, and i liked Nina tonight a whole lot more than I did in episode 3, she could be a keeper.

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2004-02-19 05:17 ]

400lb_Gorilla | February 19, 07:16 CET

What an amazing episode! One of the funniest, scariest, most bizzare episodes. Incredibly clever, too! And may I say that the Fred & Wes kiss at the end was the best kiss I have ever seen on television. 'Bout time they hooked up! I was kind of surprised by the amount of cussing, but it wasn't gratuitous--in context, it just made the episode funnier and scarier.

Wow!

Invisible Green | February 19, 07:19 CET

IMO, the funniest ANGEL episode ever. Puppet-Angel was accompanied by huge waves of laughter over here, from all who were watching. Good stuff. Very good.

delavagus | February 19, 07:23 CET

400lb_Gorilla & Coll—I'm with you both!!! I was almost giddy with enjoyment from start to finish.

What an awesome episode. Humor, character development, foul-mouthed puppets (did he really say "D*ck-wad"!?), Spike getting some felt burn, Wes giving advice he knows not how to follow, Fred getting assertive, Knox with the creepiness, David Fury!, and Nina—oh my!!

This episode is among ME's best. Take that WB.

On an ironic note, the WB affiliate in my area ran a teaser for this evening's local "news" broadcast that alluded to a possible network switch for Angel.

[ edited by Ubqtous on 2004-02-19 05:26 ]

Ubqtous | February 19, 07:24 CET

Ubqtous - interested in hearing more what your local "news" broadcast had to say about the possible switch.

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-02-19 06:02 ]

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 07:27 CET

Now, that was good. Even Fury made a cameo.

Silent Night | February 19, 07:30 CET

That was muy muy frasky. We just witnessed one of Angel's best with only 8 to go...*sigh*

And the preview for next week...it's just a little dusty in here...I swear.

Fittztopher | February 19, 07:40 CET

[ edited by weatherby on 2004-02-19 05:58 ]

weatherby | February 19, 07:53 CET

Watching the record, now. Definitely a good ep. and some network *must* pick Angel up because they can definitely take these stories farther.

Gunn, (Gwen, where are you!) Nina, (I kinda like her), etc.

Christopher | February 19, 07:55 CET

Gunn is so dumb. wouldn't the fact that the scientist just didnt do the procedure on himself be a clue that it might be ummmm oh lets say....DANGEROUS???

narky | February 19, 08:01 CET

In reference to the dick*#@ comment. Second episode in a row where that word was used. I seem to remember Davis Fury doing a cameo spot on Buffy at some point as well.
I would kill to have a poster of Team Angel walking down the hall to do battle with the puppets being lead by puppet Angel, sword over his head. Priceless.

NOLA64 | February 19, 08:06 CET

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole.....bitch."

OH. MY. GOD. That was an amazingly scrumptiously whiz-bang episode. I laughed till I wept when I wasn't deliciously creeped out. What creative brilliance. That song! Did Edlund write all the little Smile Time ditties? My man Edlund. I'm still humming The Hero of Canton. Whether he wrote the Smile Time songs or not, the man is a genius.

And all the juicy new developments in addition to the puppet fun! Gunn making another kind of Mephistophelean deal, this time instead of a truck he's seeking to regain his super-lawyerness....Knox sliding around that corner with a psycho-creepy edge about him (watch out, Fred and Wesley!)....Fred and Wesley finally kissing....and this Nina girl and Angel. This last I'm not too sure about yet, but I'm willing to go anywhere with the ME team.

I have to go somewhere and recover with smelling salts because I loved this episode so much and it makes me all the sadder and angrier that SHEER UTTER CRAP is being renewed instead of Angel. One Tree Hill and Charmed were chosen over this?????????????

And the preview next week. Oh boy.

phlebotinin | February 19, 08:12 CET

David Fury was the Mustard guy in BTVS episode Once More With Feeling.

RavenU | February 19, 08:13 CET

There was a Firefly event a while back, and when asked about writing The Hero of Canton, Ben mentioned that he was going to get to write some more songs for AtS. So yeah, I suppose he did write them. I would also suspect Joss had a lot to do with them too, since he did get a 'story by" credit.

About the episode.... Vamp!Muppet!Angel BWAAAAHHHHHH!! I want one! And then normal!Muppet!Angel, that frown was just too adorable.

The gag reel for this ep better be on the season 5 DVD set. That power walk must have taken forever to shoot. You could tell they were trying really hard not to crack up.

BTW, this is Fury's second appearance on AtS. He played a goat sacrificer for hire in Reprise.

lalaa | February 19, 08:18 CET

Was anyone else hoping that Fred and Wesley were going to get turned into puppets too when they were doing that spell. Can't you just picture a little Fred puppet with legs so skinny she couldn't stand up by herself!

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 08:22 CET

Jenny Mollen is a gorgeous woman, so it doesn't hurt that she has to get nekkid for Nina's transformations.

Cupped breasts aside, Nina and Angel seemed to connect without it feeling forced. Not sure if it's enough to parlay into a romance, but it's nice to see the ligher side of Angel again.

Ubqtous | February 19, 08:28 CET

That's what I love so much about Nina and Angel. It's natural.

But would it have killed to have Wesley say that Cordelia's gone and Angel should move on, or something small in honour of Cordy? I guess it's just as well but it kind of feels weird. She was a part of the team for all of these years..

Christopher | February 19, 08:31 CET

Fred would be a hi-larious puppet. All eyes and and wobbly toothpick legs and arms. Puppet Wesley would have to carry her on his back. I can just picture Puppet Wesley: he'd have a tightly set, slightly thrust forward jaw thing going on. Know what I mean about the jaw?

phlebotinin | February 19, 08:38 CET

OK, here's what the local WB affiliate had to say, or should I say 'parrot', about Angel's future:

"A glimmer of hope for the fans of the hit WB show, Angel. The WB Insider says Angel may follow the example of its predecessor, Buffy.

(1) Rumors have been circulating that Angel may put down stakes at our sister network, UPN. The series creator says right now those are just rumors; but the Angel team is reportedly putting together a proposal for UPN.

(2) If Angel is cancelled, it could mean a big life change for David Boreanaz and his wife, but that probably won't mean any changes at home:

(3) '... understand and respect each other, and from there we don't just think of it as... this is what we do, uh, ya know it's a job, and then we come home and then we have a family and that's important to us...'

(4) Of course, Angel is a spin-off of the popular series, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffy left the WB after several seasons only to find a home at UPN. Buffy was cancelled there last year." (5)

Visuals:
1. Clip of Angel, Cordy, & Wes walking through a gym; Angel shattering a mirror

2. Classic clip of Angel walking through sewer

3. David Boreanaz on the Ryan Seacrest show

4. Angel punching Caleb, reuniting with Buffy

5. Brief shot of the knight that Angel jousted in S1 (or 2?)

[ edited by Ubqtous on 2004-02-19 07:19 ]

Ubqtous | February 19, 08:40 CET

Hee hee, phlebotinin - now I can't get the picture of puppet Wesley, with jaw thrust out giving puppet Fred a piggy back with her skinny little legs dangling! They'd be so cute!! Think how funny that kiss scene would've been if they were puppets!!!

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 08:42 CET

Thanks Ubqtous - I wonder if there is more to the "long shot" hope that Angel will go to the UPN for them to mention it on the news like that. It bugs me though that they said Buffy was cancelled when it wasn't.

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 08:45 CET

I think the FOX should release a whole line of Angel puppets both vamp and non-vamp versions of Angel, Spike, and Harmony, as well as the rest of the gang, even Cordy and Doyle in human and demon guise. OMG the marketing people at FOX are probably having a field day right now - and pushing FOX to sell the season at least through X-mas this year to get those muppets on the market. :).

RavenU | February 19, 08:47 CET

Heck, why stop there - I want Buffy the Vampire Slayer puppets too!!

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 08:51 CET

I'd cetainly buy the regular, regular with Nina scars, and vamp Angel puppets; I'd probably buy the others, though I liked the fact that only Angel became one in the episode. Too much of a good thing...

I am split on the whole "to mention Cordy or not to mention Cordy" dilemma. Part of me says that Cordy exited in such a beatuiful fashion that there's no need for further on-screen exposition. The other part of me says a little more follow though would be nice.

In the end, I think the former wins out. If we did get on-screen Cordy dialog amongst the Fang Gang, I'm sure we'd be here talking about if they reacted appropriately :) ::cough::Xander::cough::dead Anya::cough::

blwessels: I wonder if there is more to the "long shot" hope that Angel will go to the UPN for them to mention it on the news like that. It bugs me though that they said Buffy was cancelled when it wasn't.

There were several things about this report that bugged me, like the poor attempt at tying into DB's Ryan Seacrest interview. I know not to expect journalism from the local news, but even their execution of fluff pieces is lacking.

I did find humor (not ha-ha) in the fact that the WB is squeezing what it can out of its cancellation of our favorite current Whedon production.

[ edited by Ubqtous on 2004-02-19 07:18 ]

Ubqtous | February 19, 08:56 CET

can anyone transcribe the whole self-esteem song for me? i forgot the other lines its driving me nuts

narky | February 19, 09:04 CET

is it bad that i think angel is so much funnier as a puppet???? i loved that they perfectly got his brooding down in felt-form. loved, loved, loved this episode.

skyefall | February 19, 09:07 CET

Did y'all see Knox's creepy shadow on the wall? That was awesome.

Caroline | February 19, 10:30 CET

Missed the shadow... what was creepy about it?!

Ubqtous | February 19, 10:37 CET

Dang that's an all-time favorite already! What other show is so original and so funny and can pull off such potentially ludicrous concepts as this so brilliantly!?

"How are you?"

"Made of felt. And my nose comes off."

And when Lorne sees him dramatically falling down..."Little Prince!" So good......Well, that's it. Violent actions against the WB inevitable......

EdDantes | February 19, 10:57 CET

Did anyone else notice the Ringu reference with the towel man?

Oh my god I'm still hyperventilating because MY MAN FINALLY GOT HIS GIRL! Oh Wesley! I've wanted them to get together ever since he first fell in love with her. And I really didn't expect it to happen.

I just loved everything about this episode. I loved Puppet Angel and Vamp Puppet Angel. He was so cute! And Spike and Angel fighting: "You're a wee little puppet man!" And David Fury and even Nina and Angel. I am one of the few who actually liked "Unleashed". Nina is a strong character who reminds me of Tina from "City of".

Ok, who else thinks that the shot of Wes, Fred, Gunn and Puppet Angel marching off to bring down Smile Time should be added to the opening credits?

electricspacegirl | February 19, 11:12 CET

"Missed the shadow... what was creepy about it?!"

It's when Knox leaves Wes and Fred in the lab, they lingered on his shadow on the wall. It just was a creepy shot.

Another thing that struck me was that Boreanaz' voice sounded so much more animated than usual. I think he has the most boring, flat voice most of the time and now, doing the voice over, it sounded miles better - like he was trying a lot harder.

Caroline | February 19, 12:45 CET

On a completely random note, I really liked the promo for Angel next week. It was done very well, and I hope that the background music in the promo shows up in the actual show.

Although the plug for Joss was interesting. This is the first time that I've seen a series plug a writer in its advertisements...

mchan | February 19, 13:57 CET

Prolific - if you see David in interviews he is a very animated individual and you realize how good of an actor he is and how much the writers limit Angel at times. I have to say my favorite scene was when puppet Angel rushes over and hugs Freds legs, and also when she first sees him and tries to tell him how cute he is he looks at her and says "Your fired.", how trumpesque was that. :)

I was also happy to see that they didn't turn him back quickly at the end. OK and yeah the fight between him and Spike was priceless.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-02-19 12:22 ]

RavenU | February 19, 14:20 CET

[Ok, who else thinks that the shot of Wes, Fred, Gunn and Puppet Angel marching off to bring down Smile Time should be added to the opening credits?]

I totally agree with you. That scene was awesome.

Tracy | February 19, 17:15 CET

Too hot of tv: that kiss between Wes and Fred!!! Wow, I didn't want it to end. Finally Fred woke up!! Loved muppet Angel and they should add the marching sequence to the opening credits. "Damn small hands...." hehehe.... I was waiting to see muppet Angel vamp out. That was great!!! I couldn't stop laughing during this episode and loved the irony of a tv exec selling his soul for ratings. I still can't get over how stupid the WB is. Loved the episode, want all versions of muppet Angel and can't wait for next weeks episode....

lala | February 19, 18:01 CET

Would love that scene in opening credits...pronto!!!

Coll | February 19, 18:10 CET

Fresley! My ship has finally sailed!

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-02-19 21:23 ]

electricspacegirl | February 19, 21:38 CET

"Although the plug for Joss was interesting. This is the first time that I've seen a series plug a writer in its advertisements..." -mchan

The WB did the same thing for "Spin the Bottle."

I also have to say that this ep represent some of David Boreanaz's best work. Some actors, when doing only their voice (i.e., like a guest role on "The Simpsons") are horrible, like they have to act the whole thing out in order to act well. Like SMG's voice acting in "Gone" is some of the worst acting I have ever seen. But David Boreanaz didn't lose anything. He brought his character's regular spunk, charm, and grumpiness to the show with enthusiaism. The man deserves an Emmy.

Invisible Green | February 19, 21:43 CET

I thought David did an excellent job too but I can't agree with you on your comments for SMG in "Gone" because I also thought she did a great job.

I was actually surprised at how well David did because when he did the voice over in the first Buffy game most of the time I didn't even think it sounded like him but it was.

Firefly Flanatic | February 19, 23:24 CET

"I want helicopters and tear gas, this is war!"
In my opinion it was the 13th great episode of this season (wasn't a big fan of "Unleashed"), it was an excellent comedy episode. Somehow Nina seemed like a better character this time, and I think I could stand seeing her in the show a little more if they decide to run with it, I'd rather see Gwen again, but in my opinion it seems like Nina is a Gwen replacement.
There's just something extremely funny about seeing muppets swear and talk about killing people, so that was good. The Fred and Wes thing, while a long time coming, was purely done to fit with the arc coming up.
I would complain and say Spike wasn't in it enough, but he wasn't needed any more than the one scene he was in, it was a brilliant scene though, loved hearing the fighting inside the elevator and then seeing puppet Angel walk out leaving a beaten up Spike. Why is Angel letting Spike use his cars, and how did Spike manage to get a car in a river, or lake, or ocean.
The fight scene at the end was good, when reading spoilers for this episode I wondered how they'd pull off a human/puppet fight, but they managed it, and when puppet Angel vamped, I laughed more than I have in a good while.
The merchandising they could do for this episode, I would be willing to pay quite a bit for a puppet Angel.

Ghost Spike | February 20, 00:34 CET

*insert vociferous swearing and grave threats against my VCR*

Frigging thing taped Smallville for my girlfriend, and not Angel! Rawr!!!

kishi | February 20, 01:40 CET

February 19 2004