Imagine that. The week after the show is canceled its ratings increase! I hope the ratings get better and better until the last episode.

RootBoy42 | February 19, 20:53 CET

The ratings are up? I should think so. I'm still hoping that the WB have a change of heart (unlikely), or Joss manages to get another network to pick Angel up. What does everyone else think? Any chance? Great episode last night.

cal | February 19, 21:41 CET

I hope there is a chance for it to move. According to tvguide.com, Joss said that there was a slight chance of moving to UPN. But, an Angel insider confirmed that execs at Twentieth Century Fox are putting together a proposal for UPN.

That sounds like it could be promising.

ktbear7476 | February 19, 21:49 CET

Yeah and a 'no comment' from UPN which means they're at least considering. I think it depends a lot on the numbers and on whether or not they're really cancelling Enterprise. If they do I think there's a shot at it.... Anyone else any thoughts on that?

And yeah, friggin' classic episode.

Rogue Slayer | February 19, 22:08 CET

Uh btw, that last comment was mine. Rogue Slayer is my wife and I was apparently logged in under her name.....sorry about that.

EdDantes | February 19, 22:10 CET

No worries, I think it's pretty darn cool that your wife posts here as well. My fiancee has a user name here but has not of yet used it.

Simon | February 19, 22:12 CET

If Enterprise is canned, then what does UPN have left? I'm not being cruel, I just cannot think of another show that comes on that network. I haven't lived in a city with a UPN affiliate for a little over two years (Buffy came on the Fox channel Sat. night last season), but I'm moving in a couple of months, so it's all for the good if UPN feels the need to replace Enterprise with out favorite vamp.

Tycho | February 19, 22:21 CET

Oh yeah she has been waiting to be able to register when that was on hold for a while. We're pretty fantatical Buffy/Angel fans.

Oh and I converted her, not the other way around as people sometimes assume hehe. She used to think it was 'cute' that I watched Buffy but after I showed her Buffy's first 3 seasons that changed pretty quickly. As in impatiently awaiting the mail every day, seeing if the next DVD box we ordered has come in yet because we already went through the last one twice within 3 weeks. The word would be 'hooked'.

Vindication is sweet:-)

EdDantes | February 19, 22:23 CET

Grrr Argh ..... I like the numbers increased ... which was completely expected .... but on the downside how do we lose 1.6 million viewers from the lead in - that does not boad well. Unless it's kids who go o bed at 9pm and the parents flip to the cookie cutter - Stepford shows on the other networks.

RavenU | February 19, 23:12 CET

or people who feel The O.C., or West Wing are better than Angel. No offense to anyone here, but they watch Smallville. I got bored with it during the second season, and I'm a comic geek. I've never really believed that Smallville and Angel share a great deal of the same audience.

jack knight | February 19, 23:57 CET

I do happen to watch and like both shows, but Angel is way better.
Smallville is fun and interesting, Angel is Great TV.

RootBoy42 | February 20, 00:05 CET

I also watch both but there is no comparison, Angel is obvioulsy way better. Smallville has it's moments and is enjoyable but I never get that "WOW" feeling after watching an episode like I do with Angel and did with Buffy.

Firefly Flanatic | February 20, 01:02 CET

Well they've shown about 6 or 7 episodes of season 3 Smallville here in the UK and is just so dull. I actually have not figured out why I watch it. Probably cause it kills an hour till Miracles is on. How boring is the UST between Clark and Lana? Lex and his dad are the best things on it and they do not get enough screen time. And my god they are still doing the Buffy season one monster of the week thing arghhhhh.

Simon | February 20, 01:08 CET

Simon, I definitely agree with all you say, I mostly watch it because of Lex and his dad and I can't stand the character of Lana. I'm hoping the show is going to move away from her character soon because she isn't in his future. I think it is more of killing time before Angel is on for me. If it got cancelled I really wouldn't care.

Firefly Flanatic | February 20, 01:27 CET

I second that. I've tried to like Smallville. I wanted to like Smallville. I'm a fantasy/sf/comic geek. But it's just so incredibly dull and predictable. And most of them simpy can't act. (Really, I've looked. Tom Welling has 1.5 facial expressions.) And every ep ends with Clark and Lana looking at each other with teeny bopper looks. And every 'shocking change' that occurs is usually set back to status quo by the next week.

It's a Dawson's Creek clone with some superpowers thrown in. Which mostly explains why I can't like it, and also why it's pretty succesful...

I don't mean to start a whole discussion on the merits of Smallville. This is just my opinion.

[ edited by EdDantes on 2004-02-19 23:47 ]

EdDantes | February 20, 01:46 CET

I asked this at the end of an earlier thread but got no answer.
Repost:
Regarding ratings: is there somewhere that I can go which has a comprehensive listing of the ratings for each episode/season of Angel? (with commentary to explain what the heck it means would rock, but anything is beter than nothing.) There are several Buffy crossover Angel watchers who think that I am on crack for insisting that this season has higher ratings and I wanted to be able to to have something to back this up. (Sorry if this has been already addressed recently, with the sudden influx of comments, it's hard to keep up ontop of what has been addressed.)

Thanks!

mephistopholes | February 20, 01:59 CET

You can go here for a list of the ratings from all the seasons

http://www.totallydavidboreanazuk.com/ANGEL/angelratings.htm

Sassykitten | February 20, 02:02 CET

mephistopholes- Nielsen Ratings for Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel & Firefly

[ edited by forcorreo on 2004-02-20 00:25 ]

forcorreo | February 20, 02:20 CET

3.0/5.0 is more along what Angel was expected to do this season...but I am hesitant to believe it is enough to entice Viacom/UPN to pick up the series...I'll post my network breakdown again just to give you kids a better idea of what the networks look like:

Some interesting tidbits for those of you interested in The Wb and UPN...
-The WB tv network is owned by TimeWarner a 39.6 billion dollar company(HBO,TNT,CNN,Cartoon Network, New Line Cinema and not to mention 24.3 million AOL members in the US alone)...Time Warner is a distant second in the cable industry but still enough of a powerhouse to be considering a bid on Cablevision...Why do I mention this? Because TimeWarner owns both The WB and TNT...TNT being a possible alternate destination for AtS.
-Viacom, a 26.6 billion dollar company ( owns CBS and UPN...plus MTV, Nickelodeon and BET, as well as Paramount Pictures) Viacom is rumored to rely on advetising revenue for 45% of its total revenue...Not a very comfortable place to be if you are in television media (and not NBC)...


In other words, if we want UPN to pick up Angel we have to convince UPN that Angel will bring in big bucks for advertising time...

I just thought you guys would like the info...So maybe we should be sending letters to Viacom Ent. for a possible pick up?

Simpleba | February 20, 02:37 CET

I'm sure for 'Angel' to get picked up by anybody, a roomful of lawyers have to evoke and explicate a bunch of incomprehensible corporate mumbo-jumbo between opposing behemoths before anything close to a deal gets made. I feel like I can sense the effort going on to wrangle something positive out of all this, and my prayers go out to anyone involved.

ME and whoever else is invested in 'Angel's future have good reason not to want it to go away just yet. The brilliance of this episode just proved they've figured out what they can do with the Angel paradigm, which is just about anything, apparently.

Can they convince another network 'Angel' can sell Splenda sugar replacement, cell phones, or small foreign-made cars? I don't know, but I can't believe 'Angel' would do worse than anything else UPN offers, or not repay TNT's syndication efforts with stellar ratings. Am I just insane from Angel Cancellation Stress Syndrome? (ACSS -- it's a legitimate condition, I tell you!)

Wiseblood | February 20, 02:55 CET

I wonder what 20th Fox will offer to sweeten the deal?

Simon | February 20, 02:57 CET

Simon,

Fox could wave some of their franchise fee charged for rights to AtS...That would be a good start!

Simpleba | February 20, 03:10 CET

Well they passed on Firefly, they passed on the Faith spinoff (though there were conflicting reports on that one), it would have something like reducing the fee to get them interested.

Simon | February 20, 03:26 CET

Well I'm still not sure what conclusions to draw on all this. I mean even if Time Warner is the owner of all those channels, the channels by themselves are still companies in their own right in many ways. I mean anything that big with that many departements is basically a big country with of a lot of little 'states'. I'm not so sure that everything has to go by the biggest of the big boys. And the channels are still very different beasts by themselves. What's good for TNT may not be good for WB. Ah it's hard to speculate.

My main thing is still that UPN has pretty much nothing besides Enterprise. Which Angel usually beat in the ratings. So if they do get rid of that, as it looks like.....shouldn't there be a decent chance for Angel?

EdDantes | February 20, 04:12 CET

Simpleba - you are accurate as far as the parent companies go but each divison of those companies are still seperate entities and are expected to carry their weight as such for the greater good of the parent company. If one of the child companies is not pulling it's weight it is more likely to feel the purse string pressures coming from the parent. Case in point TW parent of the WB reported a 2% loss is revenue, all thanks to the WB TV network which reported a 10% decline in revenue that off-set the 8% gain in revenue from TW cable owned networks most of that coming from TNT. On the flip side Viacom posted over a 2% gain in revenue - thanks in part to strong earnings from CBS and UPN last year. So finanically UPN is currently more sound as we move into next season.

If you really want the UPN to pick up Angel - you don't write to Viacom, they are a corporation of many companies and in the overall UPN is merely one commodity it owns now and could sell tomorrow and not care. You need to go at it from the other end of the spectrum - don't think bigger think smaller. Viacom is the top of the mountain but it's foundation is built on local affiliates. These are the people we need to contact cause they are the ones that feels the effects of the movement by the way of local viewership. By contacting your local (or any within 100 miles) affiliates - they are more apt to listen to what you are saying and pass it up the chain to the network it self. Remember the affiliate chain starts with local viewers who impact their bottomline - they in turn buy and air the programming from the network which makes them the direct customers of the nationwide network - get them to see that bring Angel to their location would effect viewership and revenue and I bet they will let UPN network execs know as well.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-02-20 02:40 ]

RavenU | February 20, 04:28 CET

I've spent some time at The Futon Critic researching UPN's current programming. They currently have shows Monday though Friday, from 8 PM to 10 PM, ET.

Here is the current schedule:
Mondays - The Parkers, Eve, Girlfriends, Half & Half
Tuesdays - One on One, All of US, ANTM
Wednesdays - Enterprise, ANTM (rerun)
Thursdays - WWE
Fridays - Movie

The only show they currently have that really seems in danger of being cancelled is "The Parkers," which has had it's latest (fifth) season cut short, to 19 episodes. At the end of this year, it will have 110 episodes, so a it could easily get a syndication deal. It's also the fifth lowest-rated comedy on UPN, so I think it's pretty safe to assume that "The Parkers" will be cancelled.

UPN currently is showing reruns of "America's Next Top Model" on Wednesdays at 9, however, on March 10, they're changing their Wednesdays: "Game Over" will premiere at 8, and "Enterprise" will be moved to the 9 PM slot. Six eps of GO have been filmed, and six additional scripts have been ordered. This is UPN's last midseason replacement to air this year, and from what I've heard, it looks really good. It's CGI-animated, and it stars the voice of Lucy Liu. Since it hasn't aired yet, we can't really predict it's chances of a second season, but midseason replacements rarely ever get second seasons (unless they are incredibly cheap), so if GO doesn't do excellent in the ratings, it might not return.

The only two shows that have been renewed for at least next season are WWE and ANTM,although "Eve" and "All of Us" have been "unoffically renewed." "Girlfriends," which is currently in its fourth season, has recently acquired a syndication deal, and is one of the top comedies on the network, so it's renewal seems likely.

"One on One" will probably get renewed also, since UPN is currently producing a pilot for a potential spin-off (currently untitled), and they don't usually consider making spin-offs of shows they plan to cancel.

I couldn't really find anything about "Half and Half." I didn't look into "Enterprise" cuz I know there's people here who actually know it's situation - I've heard it seems like the whole Trek franchise is on it's way out, but it's ratings are pretty close to "Angel's."

Another thing to remember is that UPN has a movie on Friday nights. Although as far as I know they don't have plans to do so, dropping that would free up two hours, which would probably be spent on dramas, since they have enough comedies already.

However, UPN currently has 14 shows in development plus 8 pilots in productions (incl. the "One on One" spin-off).

So, "Angel" might have a shot at getting picked up by UPN, but things do not look good.

[ edited by Invisible Green on 2004-02-20 02:39 ]

Invisible Green | February 20, 04:38 CET

Actually the UPN has a menu of 14 shows only 3 of which actually have presentaion commitment from the network - the rest are simplly on development holds so no other network can get a crack at them - but those that are merely in development are picked up and dropped on a weekly basis.

RavenU | February 20, 04:43 CET

Thanks for the info, Invisible. Looks like you put in some research time.

Tycho | February 20, 04:53 CET

Once last thing to remember that may end up killing Angel and making all of our efforts moot. SAG and AFTRA unions may have a 1 year contract extention terms in place with the AMPTP - thus adverting a strike this year which would have put a nail in the coffin of our already dead vampire. However, on the horizon is another negosiation that would spell death quite possibly if a contract is not reached next month when the WGA meets with AMPTP, which is expected to be more contentious since both sides are far apart on how to handle compensation for DVD.

SAG = Screen Actors Guild
AFTRA = American Federation of Television and Radio Artist
WGA = Writers Guild of America
AMPTP = Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers

RavenU | February 20, 05:03 CET

RavenU, you obviously know quite a bit about this..Do you have any information as to how much is Fox's franchise fee for AtS?

Simpleba | February 20, 09:30 CET

Man it's handy to have people in the know on these boards. Allthough it still feels next to impossible to predict what's going to happen.

But I've read on several sites that Enterprise is pretty much considered cancelled. Is that not true then? Is it only rumor? And I thought Angel generally had higher ratings than them?

EdDantes | February 20, 10:27 CET

Nope - don't know that - heck I doubt if they even know - numbers are always negositable. I have heard it may be a million or two but I don't remember if that was in reference to the show or some other licencing type of agreement. I wish I had a better idea - heck I'd just like to know the price of an episode. However FOX is nortorious for it's licencing fees so you know one thing it ain't cheap.

RavenU | February 20, 10:34 CET

Thanks RavenU...I have been trying to find out since Buffy moved to UPN (there was a small story concerning the license fee that UPN had to pay). I have also heard that the fee is around one to two million dollars which really sounds like chump change when you consider total production costs...I also agree with you about my post concerning UPN and its parent company Viacom...But I still think that it is interesting that Viacom (and all of its subsidiaries) rely on advertising for 45% of total revenue...Especially considering this is AtS Achilles Heal...

Simpleba | February 20, 10:45 CET

Trying to play a ratings game between any network outside of the big three is rather a questionable proposition. NBC, CBS, and ABC all reach 70% of availible households, FOX reaches a little more than 65% of those households, the WB only has about 30% of the households, and UPN reaches approx 27% of the households in the US. Heck this year cable beat broadcast for the 2nd year straight in overall ratings and cable only reaches 30% of the households that own a TV. So in the overall there would be no way the WB or UPN would ever be able to compete against any other network - since it has such a smaller viewer base - until they get a larger market share - which is hard to do cause the FCC regulates how many affiliates one company can own - that's why in some markets you have a UPN or WB not a UPN and WB along with the other 4 advertising networks.

RavenU | February 20, 10:54 CET

My point was...If one were to infer that UPN is relying rather heavily on advertising revenue, Angel might not be a qualified "winner" for that network considering 3.0/5.0 is a good showing for this program...The UPN might want to look for something with more potential (as much as it hurts me to say) to generate advertising revenue...And if Enterprise is on the bubble, why would they want a show [Angel] with VERY similar ratings...I'm just playing Devil's advocate...maybe its the MBA student talking or maybe not. Anyway, I've managed to get this post off track when I was just trying to give everybody some basic facts...

[ edited by Simpleba on 2004-02-20 12:02 ]

Simpleba | February 20, 14:01 CET

I thought I'd read somewhere that UPN didn't care about sci-fi anymore, that it wanted to focus on its 'urban programming.' I don't remember where it was, or if it's true, so take that with a large grain of salt, but I've been assuming that for a while now.

forcorreo | February 20, 17:22 CET

Yeah even after Buffy ended they went for their 'urban' stuff, but then I think they also noticed that those are not exactly ratings winners either. As a channel they're not that strong and they could use at least one 'flag ship series' so to speak.

But yeah my fear too is that they won't see enough difference between Angel and Enterprise in terms of sponsors...

EdDantes | February 20, 21:03 CET

As far as UPN going more urban next year and away from sci-fi ... here's a list of dramas they have under development...

Beck and Call - Presentation commitment / Revolves around the lives of three twentysomethings in their first jobs
Kevin Hill - Under development - no firm commitment / Young attorney gives up his playboy lifestyle to raise his niece
Mystery Girl - Presentation commitment / Alex Breckenridge as a magazine writer who solves mysteries
Nikki & Nora - Under development - no firm commitment / Centers on two lesbian private investigators
Silver Lake - Presentation commitment / Dramedy about an L.A. record store owner who communicates with the dead
Veronica Mars - Under development - no firm commitment / Hip teen girl helps her father with his private detective agency

Also until it's actually signed, sealed, and delivered on the dotted line these shows can be dropped and other shows picked up without notice.

RavenU | February 21, 00:51 CET

Cool. Thanks, RavenU.

Invisible Green | February 21, 01:12 CET

Well they passed on Firefly, they passed on the Faith spinoff (though there were conflicting reports on that one), it would have something like reducing the fee to get them interested. - Simon

Actually Faith the vampire slayer was Greenlit by both 20th Century Fox and UPN

Tim Minear (who was to create and Exec Produce the show with Joss) posted on Usenet
to that effect

---------------------------------------------------------

>>So Tim, two quick questions: 1) If Eliza had been interested, do you think a
Faith series would have been green-lighted;<<

It already had been. Studio and network were all on board. - Tim Minear

Ocipital | February 21, 06:43 CET