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January 30 2013

(SPOILER) Discuss Angel & Faith #18. It's the third part of the "Death and Consequences" arc.

Such a good issue. I loved the back story and the character arcs coming together. A&F always leaves me longing for more, that's for sure. And now we have SPIKE!!! Not that anyone who read the mini didn't see that one coming...

Art was grand, as usual. Loved the last page, of course.

[ edited by Mr.Savath_Bunny on 2013-01-30 18:06 ]
Love A&F it actually feels like the characters unlike Buffy which has become completely unrecognisable to me. Looking forward to see where they go with this.
Liking this arc a lot. Even with the recent progress on the Dawn front, Buffy feels directionless by comparison (although I'm hoping that might change once Willow returns).
Really good issue. Buffy Exposition (tm) never usually works for me on the printed page, but I thought this highlighted its relevance to our characters very well. Perhaps a bit heavy handed, but I'll take that because it at least matches the shows emotion.
The reveal about Giles's soul being with Eyhgon was BRILLIANT! I love this series and I can't wait to see where it goes. I think they're potentially building to these two titles to slam together, with Willow and Willie both trying to bring magic back.

For those who say that A&F is much more focused and interesting than Buffy atm, I unfortunately have to agree. They've finally got what seems to be a compelling story on Buffy with Dawn's situation, but Angel & Faith has been stellar the whole series because they have a driving story (Angel's quest to bring back Giles). Buffy is just kind of wandering. I will say that it's also helped by the fact that they've used the Ripper TV scripts and stories to inform A&F so that definitely helps.
Awesome, as always. The final page was a bit surprising, (I expected this to happen in #19, actually.) but the whole Eyghon-plot is great. Characterization as well.
This series has been SO F*CKIN' GREAT.
PS : In the beginning of S9, I was like all pro-Jeanty. Now, I want someone as talented as Isaacs to work on S10. Or maybe Isaacs herself : her 'Last-gleamingy' panel is one of my favorites from this issue.
So Giles played around and is damned forever for it? Oh well, makes sense in context, parallell to Angel and Spike.

Plus, again, we don't know that the soul, as spoken about re those characters, and the whatever-it-was from Buffy which did the "I think I was in heaven" gig are the same things.
This issue was so great, per usual. I loved how everything was explained too. And the art! Soo good. This issue seemed so packed, in a good way! We got a flashback, a fight, and then great explanations, with a panned into a great cliff hanger. A&F is at its prime!

Did anyone else raise their eyebrow at Eyhgon's, "I'll rip your limbs off, and then again when they grow back!"? Because we already had that big fiasco over at IDW, when Angels hands grew back, when they obviously aren't supposed to. I mean, it's no big deal, and there's a ton of ways to play it off, but I just was reminded of that situation from before.
I'm not the big fan of the A+F series as most here, I know, but yeah. Once again, I just wasn't so into this issue. I feel like the comics are just action, action, exposition, action and the action plots were never the point of the show for me. For example-- when Angel borrows the cell phone. If this was the show there would have been some joke about him not knowing how to use it, or about how he finally could work technology-- likely he would've had to ask how to make a call, meaning Nadira would have been forced to interact with him, which would have been both entertaining and interesting, given her feelings about him and the fact that they're being forced to work together (potentially the most interesting thing about the issue to me, but completely unaddressed). Instead it's glossed over, and then we get a long info dump, and then that's about it.

Also, didn't he make that phone call while they were all in the car together? So how was Spike's arrival such a shocker?

Me, I'd like to know more about Alasdair's pet fairies...

Did anyone else raise their eyebrow at Eyhgon's, "I'll rip your limbs off, and then again when they grow back!"?

I have Angel & Faith # 18.Part III of "Death And Consequences."

I don't know what to say.My thoughts are flying all over the place so I'll keep my comments short.I LOVED this issue.AMAZING payoff on so much stuff.

1)Why and how Angel is resurrecting Giles.

I know this is controversial but it works for me and doesn't absolve Angel of the guilt he feels which is still driving his desire or his bad judgment last season.

And even though it gives a good reason for Angel to try to bring back Giles,it doesn't mean it will work or is the best idea.

This does answer why Giles specifically might be able to be brought back and why it's worth trying.

Having Giles soul not being able to move own/trapped and being owned by Eyghon whenever he died also sort makes me wonder what happens when you die in this magic free world.I speculated and wondered earlier the season if the destruction of the seed cut off the means for souls to move on and that Giles was trapped here.But what about everyone else who dies post seed destruction.

This answer sidesteps that.It gives a good Giles unique reason why Angel is doing this specifically for Giles and nobody else but still leaves me wondering about souls post death now.

The other thing I'm wondering about is if Faith had this information from the beginning,would her concerns about bringing Giles back been more muted knowing(as Angel did) that Giles soul was dammed to Eyghon from the moment he and Ethan made a terrible choice in their youth.

I also actually wonder what Buffy and the Scoobies would think of Angel's plan to bring Giles back but with all the information presented.

Willow sort of gave he approval in the Family Reunion arc but with the added info now.Would it be strong approval now?

I really want to see Spike's reaction next month and with all the info because that might be a window into how the others could see things.

2)How Eyghon factors into the larger storyline with Giles,the loss of magic and Whistler,Pearl & Nash's plan and events last season.

This is masterfully done I think.How everything is connected.

3)What Whistler,Pearl & Nash's plan actually is.

Screams end of the season Apocalypse to me.And Angel's comment how Whistler would see that as balance.Half the planet paradise.Half of it hell really makes sense.

4)Why Angel called Spike last week in Spike # 5.

The reason Angel needs Spike's help makes total sense.

This issue was exposition heavy but IMO done in a a lively style and really gave payoffs big time.

Other little things.I really liked Nadira in this issue.Some quick thinking on her part too.Hope she makes it but i have a feeling she won't based off of RI cover for next issue.Also great to see Alasdair and hope he sticks around too.

Christos Gage Is really bringing things home as we near the end of the season.I would love to have him writing the Buffy book in season 10.
It's actually ridiculous how good this series is.
I think some may be taking the "damned to Eyghon" a little too literally. Remember when Ethan removed his tattoo way back that Eyghon lost interest in him pretty much instantly.
Sometimes I do not think Angel is tragic; I think he is stupid.
Dana5140: Amen to that.
We have just went through the whole season of utterly pointless quests of Angel gathering Giles'soul-pieces - and then issue 18 comes out and slaps us with the fact that Giles' soul ( or the core of it anyway) was with Eyghon that entire time. Does it imply that in the end of day Giles' continued on with partially eroded soul ? This feels icky somehow, turning Giles' into a Whedonverse version of Voldemort - only Giles fractured his soul for supposedly 'good' reasons - like binding a demon possessing a child, triggering magic crystal power etc; or strange and weird ones - like loosing part of it to the Lorophage. What about Ethan - is his entire soul solely in Eyghon because he never lost its individual pieces in various magical affairs, or is he equally 'dispersed' ? I suppose since nobody is resurrecting him - it does not really matter.

In any case - that is the part I find fairly weak - the entire series is written around poorly defined 'quest of gathering' that is also disguised as a 'narcissistic quest' - solely for PR reasons - to please the part of the fandom that demanded character blood and 'no letting off hooks'. When that did not work - and the series did not sell well and in fact continued to loose audience the editorial team changed tactics mid-way and stopped promoting 'selfish characters on path of redemption/destruction'. But by that time the promoted misdirect was so widely accepted that by now anything shy of 'Angel is the greatest villain the verse ever knew and he should be treated as such ' is being taken as 'whitewashing'. Shrug. So, what was the point of the misdirect again? Better sales ? More intriguing story ? Sillier looking Angel - for not telling Faith the truth?

Other than that and an itsy-bitsy part with Giles' other gang members - the ones who died in Dark Ages - whose souls should have belonged to Eyghon too, but who still dissolved into green goo, I really think the issue is solid.

Oh, and I liked the fact that Angel hated making that call to Spike and did it anyway - because innocent lives are at stake, not because he has any desire to communicate with Spike. And I liked the fact that Spike is his usual bragging self - utterly devoid of any other sentiment but to pull yet another one on Angel. Which is understandable in his present Buffy-rejected state of mind. The funny part - Angel has no idea Spike has been rejected. Lets see if he finds out.
I just love Gage and Isaac's Angel and Faith and am very grateful it exists. What fun!
Dorotea does a great job of saying why, faith in angel.
I think it's a little early to say what Spike's motivation is when he's only in one panel.

I also didn't get that Angel hated making that phone call. Maybe there were more panels in other people's copies.

[ edited by deborahmm on 2013-01-31 21:35 ]
Erhm Angel's facial expression was not exactly full of eager anticipation, when he grabbed for that phone. In fact Rebekah sort of drew him as he was having a bout of a spleen paired with constipation and headache, but of course there might have been missing panels in my copy that other people got where Angel was smiling dreamily while eagerly punching the numbers. Same applies to Spike 'grand' entrance scene.

[ edited by dorotea on 2013-01-31 23:17 ]
"I also didn't get that Angel hated making that phone call."

No I didn't either, nor did I see it in the artwork. Oh well. :)
Well, maybe Angel just bit into a slice of lemon right before he turned and saw Spike. :) His welcoming 'smile' sure was drawn upside down.
Comics can act as projective tests.
What is a projective test, baxter?

Do you mean text, rather than test? If so, I strongly agree with you. Yes, we project into characters.
Like the Rorschach - a test (loosely defined) that illuminates our beliefs, feelings, desires.
Such an incredible issue. I applaud the writer and artist on this one cause it was really a step apart from the Buffy series and Faith has really just... wow... i think she's become a better slayer than the now egotistical and boring Buffy. Because my computer wouldn't load last night i couldn't read your guys comments and was sooo surprised at the end!!! Spike series sounds really boring but Willows is really important!!! All and All best issue since Season 8!
@Dorotea ... how would you feel if the magical items brought Giles back to his body and every finds out Giles is the true form of Eighon and Angel makes a similar decision that Buffy made in season 2...
Where's originally, the comic creators team implies us to have none -of belifs, feeling and desires to affect our comprehension. Because clearly - they aim for audience of giant war-mongering robots. How cool is that?

magical items brought Giles back to his body and every finds out Giles is the true form of Eighon

I would feel the series truly jumped the great white, there would be no going back to the comics for me.

[ edited by dorotea on 2013-02-01 06:13 ]
Dorotea, Angel's expression is sour in the panel you mention not because Spike has arrived but because Spike has just called him a 'girl.' They rile each other up that way. It's what they do.

But I've looked at the panels again, and unless you really do have extra ones in your copy, there's no sign IMO that Angel is reluctant to make that phone call. Also, braggadocio or not, Spike came to help, didn't he, when Angel asked, and he didn't have to, considering that the last time they saw each other Angel tried to kill Spike.

It's as Baxter says, we all see what we want to see in these comics. You want to see an Angel who hates Spike and a Spike who has no good qualities whatsoever, so that's what you're going to see.

Hey, if we all see what we want to see in these comics, we are all reader response people. Vindication at last! :-)
You want to see an Angel who hates Spike

I never said I want to, or think that Angel hates Spike in these panels. What I was saying that Angel hated making that call - exactly because he needed to ask for help from someone he almost killed when possessed by Twilight, and who - for all he, Angel, knows might be enjoying romantic relationship with the girl they both love. Why would calling Spike would not be awkward, embarrassing, and unpleasant ? That's what I think Rebekah went for in the calling scene. Yes, I got it that Spike called Angel a 'lady' and that it riled Angel even more. As for 'hate' I think they have a mixed bag o'feelings towards each other and most of these feelings are complicated. But I think that if there is any affection left between the two - we will find out soon enough. :)
I agree that Angel only made a cranky face because Spike made fun of him right off.
It made me laugh.
I am looking forward to the next issue, although I'm kind of just suspending judgement on the plot. I don't really expect it to make sense or be consistent. I've had to let that go.
Sure it would be nice to get a fill in of how they went from Angel trying to kill Spike, and Spike getting upset in the Buffy comic at the Angel Island mention, to hanging around Angel and working together, but I'm not expecting it. I would like it, but I'm not counting on getting it.
whateves... i thought they were amazing and can't wait for the next two!!
Another excellent issue! Love how it's all tying together!
Any chance of getting a link to this on the front page menu ?
Just want to say that I agree with your sentiment, I do think Faith is a more compelling character than Buffy right now (who I actually think has been regressing as a character for quite some time now). I think she's every bit as capable a Slayer too. You would have to be after working with Angel for so long, not to mention leading your own crew of slayers. I think she's deserving of her own book, but I really enjoy her relationship will Angel and would like to see them stick together for another season or two if possible. I think seeing Faith working with both Spike and Angel is going to be VERY interesting. I can see some interesting interactions between her and Spike and I wonder what her response will be whenever those guys get into a little verbal spat. I love this book, it's stellar. I feel like there was maybe a tad too much exposition this issue, but still enjoyed it overall.

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