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February 03 2013

TV gripes you should quit complaining about. Time to move on from "Firefly was awesome and Fox cancelled it!"?

If its okay with you, can I please list my tv gripe?

TV Gripe #9. HBO Girls sucks. Lena Dunham only got her show because of nepotism. HBO Girls is great. Lena Dunham is the voice of a generation. There are no African Americans on Girls. Lena Dunham is fat and ugly.

I love the show, personally (Lena Dunham has a strong creative voice) but if you hate or love it, deal with it and calm down because Lena is going to continue to win awards for years to come. Seriously, some of the hatred smacks of jealously and sexism. And yes, Lena Dunham is fat, but not ugly and I think that's great. We need more women on tv who aren't skinny and are not models on tv. We need to see women on tv who look natural.

Now, everyone else what is your tv gripe?

[ edited by BuffyFirefly on 2013-02-03 11:18 ]
Agree with BuffyFirefy. I get it's not everyone's cup of tea but what it's doing is very unique and interesting. You can dislike it without being a vocal sexist douche about it.
If its okay with you, can I please list my tv gripe?


I'd rather we stuck with Firefly than veer off elsewhere. The Firefly complaint has been going on for over ten years now and at some stage (if we're not there already) people will see it as sour grapes rather than a genuine grievance. Whether the fandom wants to move on is another matter but we would need to be aware of how we're viewed by outside (there's a story there but that's for another time).
I'll let go of Firefly when Joss does.
i don't want it to be over, when joss writes these characters they are so relateable of times of my life and how we can step up and not messed with.
I'm perfectly capable of griping about Firefly's cancellation while still acknowledging it made financial sense to cancel it. Well, I don't so much gripe as lament. I don't say, "How dare Fox cancel Firefly." But sometimes I do say (especially after rewatch), "Gee, I miss Firefly and wish we had more of it."
Firefly being cancelled will most likely always be a thorn in my side. There are multiple reasons for this, but there is one in particlular that makes me unable to move on. Aside from a VERY limited handful of shows (I can count them on one hand), I haven't seen anyone come up with anything that crosses genres, mixes emotions, or takes risks the way Firefly did. Yes it got horrible ratings. But there have been many other shows in the history of television that did the same and yet were allowed to stick around and went on to become some of the post popular programs to date. Also I could not disagree more with the statement about airing the second episode first. Airing anything but the pilot for a show as complex (especially in reference to its multifaceted and background rich charcters) as Firefly is a death knell. To say otherwise is just foolhardy.
When Firefly stops attracting new fans whose moral outrage at its fate have yet to be expressed - then I think it would be an appropriate time to "move on".
Well, at least we'll never gripe about how Firefly went downhill and season six was too dark or season seven veered too far from the main cast. So there's that.

[ edited by redeem147 on 2013-02-03 16:13 ]
And Kaylee dying hilariously.
Mal would have killed Jayne by season 3.

And we know there was going to be a Spike cameo in Season 6. link:
What really sticks in my craw is the near-total lack of advertising by FOX for Firefly. Especially when compared to how they've been shoving "The Following" down our throats for the last...what? three months before it finally aired.

To be perfectly honest, any interest I might've had in that show was killed by the overkill way they promoted it.

Don't tell me they don't pick and choose which shows they want to succeed when they do something like that.

Go ahead and argue "But Kevin Bacon! Who had a name in Firefly?" and I'll say "It shouldn't matter if you've got a nobody in the lead or Mr. Really Big Movie Superstar - advertise the show, not the actor."

Grr. Argh.
The cancellation is not a thorn in my side. I feel a poignant regret, not so much for myself, but for Joss and the actors, for whom it was over too soon. In a very important way though, Firefly/Serenity is the gift that keeps on giving, continually being discovered by new fans through the original fans; by word of mouth, by being held at the end of a sharp nail file sotospeak to watch the DVDs of show and film, so that what was is present-day, appreciated still. The power of film. And talent.

Last summer, seeing Nathan Fillion tear up a scant few feet away from me after answering a question from a new fan, in talking about how that kind of enthusiasm and appreciation has kept the show alive ten years later, only confirmed for me how special it all was. It's a shared experience - and if I get an opportunity, I still mention the show to people who might be interested and how to find it. I can't gripe about being able to do that.
I'm mad they cancelled:

-Stargate SG-1
-Dresden Files
-Flash Gordon
-Firefly
-Law & Order
@ BuffyFirefly - THANK YOU!!!! I completely agree about Girls. It's one of my favorite shows on the air, and the arguments being made against it are getting tired. If you don't like it, DON'T watch. Lena Dunham doesn't need you to like her. She wrote the core characters as being pretty spoiled, self-involved, and stupid. But it's hilarious, and insightful, and forgiving of the flaws in human nature that most people aren't prepared to admit even exist.

That, and the way Community has been treated by NBC... I love it so, and I'm constantly afraid it's on its last legs.
How about, "Angel was awesome and the WB cancelled it"?

/still bitter
Never give up! Never surrender!

Imagine what the world would be like if the original Trekkies gave up trying to resurrect the canceled series.

Bitter about "Angel," too.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2013-02-03 17:46 ]
I think Fox paid EW to write this because it bugs them that they are still getting flack for canceling 'Firefly'. And I might refrain from comment except that it REALLY annoys me that EW uses the ratings as the reason for the cancelation when we all know that the bad ratings were created by Fox by not running the pilot, running episodes out of order, scheduling the show on Friday night, and having the show preempted by baseball so frequently that even people trying to find the show were prevented from doing so. No show could survive that.
/rant over.
I think Fox paid EW to write this because it bugs them that they are still getting flack for canceling 'Firefly'.

Now that would be absolutely hi-larious.
Unless the people who used to work at Fox got together and started a fund to pay EW ten years in the future, the payment idea is pretty farfetched. I don't think there is a single executive working there that was there in 2002. Of course, that will be ignored/forgotten/glossed over with a post or two because people have got to hate.

Easy to hate on a big faceless corp but actual people made those decisions and those actual people have been gone from Fox for a very long time.
Actually, I imagine that current FOX executives are pretty cool with the fact that major entertainment publications help FOX continue to generate revenue from DVD sales of an old TV show with loads of free publicity. "Yes, yes, please publicly complain about cancelling that awesome show, which is currently on sale at Amazon.com!"
If anything 'good' can come out of Firefly's premature cancellation, a show like Fringe got its run. It managed to tell its before leaving. I read somewhere the Fringe producers credited what happened to Firefly to allowing it to happen.

While it's hard to let something go, what may spring down the line is a show FOX allowing FOX to right its Karma. Often what's ahead of its time allows for another show to really advance television storytelling.
How Fox treated Firefly was shameful and disgusting. Lack of promotion was part of it.
Why doesn't Netflix pickup Firefly?
Lots of entitlement going on in this thread.

Unless you spend the entire time needling them and pointing out how 'awesome' Firefly being renewed would have been, people don't care. They will watch it, they may enjoy it, they may say "that was good, a shame there's not more". Nobody should have moral outrage at this. There is nothing moral about it.

And Angel was far more deserving of a sixth season than Firefly a second, but I guess that gets a pass because it was Joss' own cockiness that got that cancelled?
I am more upset about The Tick getting weak support and the 'premature' cancelation, but............Fox did make some shows that we love. Daring, strange shows with small audiences. And those shows are still selling DVDs.
I love Firefly, and I'm obviously a Joss fan if I'm posting here. That being said, I'm tired of hearing about it. Personally, I think it's time to let go. Just my opinion. We'll always have our DVDs.
I'll give up the grips the day I believe we've seen the last of that universe on a screeen.
I'll give up the grips the day I believe we've seen the last of that universe on a screeen.

So... after it was announced that Serenity didn't do well enough to have a sequel then?
Unless you spend the entire time needling them and pointing out how 'awesome' Firefly being renewed would have been, people don't care.

It seems we must know different people.

And Angel was far more deserving of a sixth season than Firefly a second, but I guess that gets a pass because it was Joss' own cockiness that got that cancelled?

Umm... what was that about entitlement again?

I'll give up the grips the day I believe we've seen the last of that universe on a screeen.

So... after it was announced that Serenity didn't do well enough to have a sequel then?

Obviously I can only speak for myself. For me it would be when the franchise's ability to sustain interesting and inventive stories and characters runs dry, which is to say probably not in the foreseeable future (at least not going by the current consumption rate - if you get my drift...)

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2013-02-04 05:37 ]
Umm... what was that about entitlement again?

I'm not going to get into this, but here's David Fury to help me out:

"The only reason that Angel didn't come back...it's a very simple thing. Because our ratings were up, because of our critical attention, Joss specifically asked Jordan Levin, who was the head of The WB at the time, to give us an early pick-up because every year they [would] wait so long to give Angel a pick-up [and] a lot of us [would] turn down jobs hoping that Angel will continue he [Joss] didn't want that to happen. So, he was feeling very confident and he [Joss] just asked Jordan, "Like, make your decision now whether you're going to pick us up or not," and Jordan, sort of with his hands tied, with his back up against the wall, called him the next day and said, "Okay, we're canceling you." Jordan's no longer there and The WB has since recognized...I believe Garth Ancier at The WB said that it was a big mistake to cancel Angel. There was a power play that happened that just didn't fall out the way they wanted it to. We wanted to get an early pick-up, we didn't. In fact we forced them [The WB] to make a decision, and with his hand forced he [Levin] made the decision to cancel us. I guarantee that, if we waited as we normally did, by the time May had come around they would have picked up Angel. I can guarantee that."

And I didn't mean cockiness is a bad thing, it's not. Well, in this instance it probably was, but Angel was in a position where Joss thought he could be cocky; didn't quite work out that way.

Obviously I can only speak for myself. For me it would be when the franchise's ability to sustain interesting and inventive stories and characters runs dry, which is to say probably not in the foreseeable future (at least not going by the current consumption rate - if you get my drift...)

You know that fits 100's of shows that have been cancelled before their time, right? Even Sliders. If it's a good enough universe, with many characters, there will always be an interesting story to tell. Doesn't mean they should be told or will be told, but you seem to basically be saying that you will never ever ever accept Firefly's cancellation.
I think the main issue with Firefly is that Fox showed such a lack of faith in the show before it even aired. The fact that it still has such a fervent following says a lot about the show's quality.

When I hear this argument about how the show had awful ratings, all I can say is that everyone I know who are fan of the shows now did not watch it while it was on the air. The trailers that Fox aired looked bad, and there was a complete lack of buzz. I didn't really start hearing good things about the show until after the DVD set came out, and that seems like a common story.

It's been long enough now that I'm not frustrated about how the show was handled, but it left it's stamp on me, and introduced me to Whedon's work. I've remained a huge fan since then. I know it's the same for a lot of people.

I really don't understand bringing up Angel like fans didn't also want that to continue. Fans were really adament that there should have been more. It just had five seasons to develop it's characters and stories, and Firefly had less than 1 and a film. It feels like less of a slight to some people as a result.

[ edited by rabid on 2013-02-04 08:16 ]
But let's be honest here, folks. If everyone knew about Firefly, we wouldn't be the cool kids who know something that other people don't. It's part of the drill: we tell people about this crazy-amazing show that no one's ever heard of, we show it to them, they get won over, we all rant about Fox, then we go off and we find others. Lather, rinse, repeat. It's fun, we get to show off something amazing and obscure, and we look nifty in the process.

I do regret that Firefly was canceled so soon, mostly because after watching Serenity I saw how amazing Season 2 would have been, but there is one advantage: Firefly is so good and so short that it makes a great intro to Joss. I've persuaded a lot of people to watch the show because it's easy to get into that way. (And it's also pretty easy to tell early on if someone likes the show. If they laugh at the dinosaurs, they're in.)
Gouki - have you not seen Fury's comment at Whedonesque about the interview?

My anecdote about Joss trying to get an early pick-up was also not accurate, I left out the altruistic part of the story: Joss did not want his writers to lose out on job offers from other shows if ANGEL wasn't coming back. The prior year, some writers turned down offers, and could have ended up jobless if ANGEL was cancelled. Joss didn't want that to happen. He didn't think it was fair to them to wait to know if they had a job for a sixth season. It was stupid of me to suggest the show would have been picked up if we had waited. The truth is the WB was going to cancel it no matter what. It was too expensive for them.


Link:
I will never move on.
You know that fits 100's of shows that have been cancelled before their time, right?

To the degree of applicability that I find applies to Firefly? 5-10 tops.

If it's a good enough universe, with many characters, there will always be an interesting story to tell.

And who doesn't like an interesting story?

Doesn't mean they should be told or will be told, but you seem to basically be saying that you will never ever ever accept Firefly's cancellation.

And given the above, what exactly is so wrong about that?

[ edited by brinderwalt on 2013-02-04 16:26 ]
I don't care who thinks it is wrong, I'm never 'getting over' Firefly/Serenity. And I will be hoping to hear more of Joss' stories until the day I die.
And Angel was far more deserving of a sixth season than Firefly a second
Gouki | February 04, 02:11 CET

And here I was thinking you had no sense of humor!

Your dislike for Firefly is well documented both here and in previous threads. It's getting old.
To play Devil's advocate, let's think about things that may have changed if Firefly stayed on the air:

Several shows people like would either not have happened or be drastically different: Castle, TSCC, and Chuck to name a few. Oh, and Dollhouse, which I personally like better than Firefly.

Serenity would have never been made, so Joss would have not been able to direct this film, which showed that he could handle a big team movie on the big screen, you get where I'm going with this?
So thinking about it, I realize my gripe isn't with them cancelling it, it's with how they mistreated it. I watched the original run on tv, and I didn't love the show. Why? Because I spent the summer seeing ads for it, and then when it got to the premiere, it wasn't the 2 hours I was promised, and it seemed like a completely different show than was advertised to me (Where's the girl in the box? I'm so confused, I totally wanted to know what was up with that! .... for an example). I kept watching, because it was Joss, and because there were moments, but I didn't start falling in love until near the end of the run, and when they finally aired the pilot, and I went "ooooh it all makes sense now". It took a while for me to forgive Train Job, but I love it now too heh.

It's pretty interesting knowing more of the story behind the Angel cancellation. Makes me hate WB all the more, and love Joss even more too. He was definitely cocky in a good and well deserved way.
To play Devil's advocate, let's think about things that may have changed if Firefly stayed on the air:

And very well could've changed for the better - who's to say.
Lena Dunham is not real-world fat. She's Hollywood fat. And being that she's probably a size 8 or 10, that's utterly ridiculous. Size 14 is average.

I agree with most of these gripes. My least favorite gripe, "Fox cancels all the good shows" ignores the fact that Fox gives shows a chance that all the other network shows will not. And it also ignores 5 seasons of Fringe.
"Serenity would have never been made, so Joss would have not been able to direct this film, which showed that he could handle a big team movie on the big screen, you get where I'm going with this? "

Or maybe Firefly would've gone on to be so awesome that Joss would've ended up in the director chair for X-Men:The Last Stand and the Phoenix saga would've been expertly adapted, Cyclops would've been shown as the brave smart leader he is, and Wolverine would've been bad-ass.

Sorry I got lost in a alternate Whedon world. My apologies.

[ edited by eddy on 2013-02-04 23:02 ]

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