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February 06 2013

(SPOILER) Discuss Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Willow - Wonderland #4. It's the second last part of the miniseries with Angel & Faith's Christos Gage joining the writing team.

Page 4: Spike, Tara, Giles, Vi, Anaheed, Kennedy, ???, Simone, Xander, Faith, Angel, Dawn, Buffy, Oz?
This is a much better cover than the alternate one.
Did not see the ending twist coming, even though it was sort of given to us from the start. Can't wait for the final issue now.
I'll have my copy later today but there has been much speculation on forums about Willow becoming the new seed.As for the Rack reveal.This is once again proof to never trust the creators.They'll lie to perserve a secret/spoiler/surprise.Didn't Scott flat out deny a few months ago that Marrak is Rack and that Marrak is not a known character?Just like a few month before the Twilightgate leak,Scott said that the Always Darkest webcomic would be Angel and Spike's last appearance in season 8.BOOM three months later we find out Angel is Twilight and Spike will be arriving in the last arc..

I get why creators do it too.It's understandable that they would fib to perserve the story and any surprise.It's like what Steve DeKnight said.Tara's death was leaked by spoilers months in advanced and DeKnight swore up and down that Tara wasn't going to be killed and if she is,he'll leave Buffy as a writer.The episode aired(wildfeed spoilers confirmed the death a few days early) and Steve's response was basically,Of course I lied.What,did you really think I would tell the truth and ruin the shock?Of course DeKnight did tell the truth on one thing.That was his last episode of Buffy.....he moved to Angel the next season.lol

So this is just more proof not to believe everything the creators say about things related to story/ potential spoilers.They'll never lie about anything that really matters but to keep a major reveal a secret or if plans change(like Spike being only in Buffy in season 9),than damn streight they'll fib.

And what's more,they can't even go with a no comment on things like Rack being Marrake when confronted/asked a few month ago because a lot of times for people saying no comment or no spoilers is just confirmation that it is true.

So it's a no win scenario.
SO good! I'm really digging the Willow mini-series and Angel & Faith. Buffy seems like it's about to get going. I hope so, because A&F has been SOOO good and I want Buffy to be just as good.
It's Rack? Cool. I've always thought he was an underrated character.
If the writers are going to make the name of Marrack so similar to Rack, they shouldn't be surprised if people jump to that conclusion. If Marrack was named Bob, they could have preserved the surprise.
Finally a well-written issue. Loved it, actually didn't see the reveal coming even though I knew of the theory, and how creepy to have him back.

Why can't we have any of this and the A&F magic in the Buffy title? :(
Hmmmm... so they're opening portals and stuff... sounds like something a key is made to do. Love that Willow is embracing her dark and light side and the revelation at the end was great. Can't wait for the next and final issue to come out!
wait... so Warren survived Evil Willow and so did Rack... so her body count is like... zero?!
As a killer she definitely failed...

Great issue in general, but im not a fan of those "yeah, but he/she wasnt really dead..." things.

Once its okey, twice...

[ edited by Darkness on 2013-02-06 23:17 ]

[ edited by Darkness on 2013-02-06 23:18 ]
Sigh. Is this series going to continually mine the past ad infinitum and ad nuaseum? Rack? Really? And this is supposed to resonate?

Let's retcon so Willow is no longer a killer of anyone or anything. That takes away from her redemption, since what does she now need to be redeemed for? Tara, of course, is still dead. But Rack and Warren, hey, they're alive. Not that they matter.
@Dana5140 Sorry, I don't agree. The fact that Willow failed in killing Warren and Rack had nothing to do with her. She attempted to kill them, and fully believed that she had done so, which when it comes to her level of fault is entirely the same. And she tortured them, tried to kill Buffy and attempted to end the world. She has plenty to atone for.
I suspected people would immediately say that. But again, this is a horrible retcon. It diminishes so much of what came before. And c'mon, Joss can do better than recycle old bit-parters like Rack. I would not be surprised to see Moloch come back, at this rate. Amy, Warren, Rack, Eyghon, Ethan Rayne, D'Hoffryn, Illyria, and so on and so on.

[ edited by Dana5140 on 2013-02-07 01:54 ]
I'm sorry, but isn't Warren just a pile of bloody sludge and bones? I don't think we can put him in the "still alive" column, or did I miss something?

And probably, people "immediately say that" because it's factual. If Willow's kills didn't "take", it wasn't for lack of intent or trying on her part. I mean, I agree in general about the callbacks, but I think there are others that could be made a more valid complaint about.
So, waaay back in my comment on the Wonderland #1 thread, when I wrote that I suspected Marrak was Rack, I was NOT pleased. I've completely changed my mind! I feel like this title has been meandering a bit (perhaps, intentionally), and in spite of my feelings about Rack not being dead, I'm actually happy about this reveal. I think he is a good adversary for Willow and I've been wanting to see her dig her heels in and show her strength. Maybe now this mini can end on a bang instead of a fizzle. I suspect that the recycling of old characters from the show might be due to the difficulty of creating new characters, in print, that have as much of an emotional impact on readers as the characters we watched on the show. I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult.
Well, that, plus every time they create a new character, the "fandom" goes into major screaming fits about them and 90% of the "fans" leave. Hell, by this time, the "fandom" must consist of about, oh, -3,546,321 people...
As i said, im not a fan of "he was not actually dead" thing repeated again, after Warren, but its not a deal breaker. I have loved this Willow story, wich has being far more acurate in the exploration of who she was at this point than i could have expected from the concept wich, i didnt disliked, but was a bit weary off. I am enjoying it though. A bit too much exposition at some points wich i think lacks a bit of the drama dinamics this "show" is so good at, but its just nitpicking. I cant waut for the next one.
Warren ultimately died of the injuries Willow inflicted on him; just took a little longer due to the application of Amy's magick. I'm willing to accept that Warren technically died when Willow flayed him, but he was brought back from the brink of death by Amy. This would explain why the First Evil was able to take his form, even though his life was extended by magick. Sort of how the Master killing Buffy was enough to activate another slayer even though Xander was able to bring her back.

We don't really know why exactly why Rack is still around, though he's a magickal being, which could make him difficult to kill, and he's also currently existing in another dimension.
I got Willow:Wonderland # 4 of 5 earlier today.I've been very busy so I haven't been able to post my thoughts until now.I'll keep it brief.

The issue itself was pretty good.Really liked the developments with Willow and Aluwyn.

The whole Willow becoming the seed idea has been floating around since before season 9 started so these developments weren't a surprise but I still liked how they got to it.

I also liked Willow confronting her dark self as it were."There's just Willow" is obvious but again,I liked how it was executed.

The Marrak being revealed as Rack thing.Again most guessed it.Mar[rak].Scott Allie even fibbed about it to hide it which I already commented on(Never take what is said by creators at face value in regards to anything potentially very spoilerish).SO this isn't a surprise.My problem with it is it's another dead character being brought back(or rather reveal to never had died).I think it's been done to often now and unless it's really really done well or worth it it than I'm really blah about more ressurections.

Look,I honestly am not expecting Giles to be brought back in Angel & Faith but the journey of the story has been great so I might buy it if it's done really well with real depth to it.The last time that was done IMO was when Buffy died and returned in season 5/6.

So the Rack reveal feels like a mistep right now but I'll see how this plays out next issue.

Very good issue overall.
I'm going to avoid any reply about actual story content until tomorrow, but behind the scenes wise has it been said why Gage suddenly has become a co-writer for this? I mean, it just seems weird for a co-writer to be brought in in the penultimate issue of a mini.
In a few interviews,it was said Jeff Parker came on to season 9 later than everyone else.He wasn't a part of the original wirters summit for example.So it was decided that Christos Gage would help out on Willow:Wonderland to smooth thing over.
There is still time for Willow to kill Rack this time anyway... ;)
Love the reveal. Yeah, I've been wondering why Rack hasn't been mentioned in a while, considering he played a significant part in Willow's decline.
Does anybody know who the characters in the vision on page 4 are? Willow says these are her friends who are in danger. This to me indicates it must all be alive characters, so the blonde in the back-left might be Lavinia and not Tara as many suggested; this could make the mysterious brunette in the back-right Sophronia.

My guess is: Anaheed, Vi, Lavinia, Giles, Kennedy, Sophronia, Simone, Spike, Angel, Xander, Dawn, Buffy, Faith, Oz

Anybody else suspicious about Simone being on this page? And Anaheed?

[ edited by Allycat on 2013-02-08 09:13 ]
Well, Giles is still dead.

Pretty sure that the two women in the back are Cordelia and Tara. The brunette sort of has Cordelia's smile and hair.

I don't think the people she sees necessarily need to be alive, just her connection to the world.
I am more puzzled at the who are the loved ones on the Liminals plane page . They look like Saga, Buffy(or Tara ?), Giles, Dawn (or Kennedy ?). If these are Saga, Summers sisters and Giles it sucks to be Willow's ex.

But yes, I am pretty sure the two mystery women are Tara and Cordelia on the big group image.

[ edited by dorotea on 2013-02-08 21:39 ]
Maybe Willow's loved ones from the Liminal are meant to be representiational -- Saga (magickal), Buffy (friendship), Giles (family/parental), and Tara (romantic).
I'm going to avoid any reply about actual story content until tomorrow, but behind the scenes wise has it been said why Gage suddenly has become a co-writer for this? I mean, it just seems weird for a co-writer to be brought in in the penultimate issue of a mini.

Christos Gage co-wrote issue three as well. Issue five is credited solely to Jeff Parker (at least in the solicitations).
LOVED this. I'm very glad Gage came in to help. I feel like this is the most sense Dark Willow has made to me. Also, I thought the art was beautiful in this. :) Willow is hot.
I was really late getting this issue, but I felt that Rack was worth the wait! Now I want to reread all of Marrak's stuff to see if there were any small clues about his real identity. It does make sense that Rack, if he had managed to live, would make it his mission to regain as much magic as he could. And having Marrak turn out to be someone so closely connected to Willow and her magical troubles is really perfect.
Love the Rack twist, although I don't see why his design had to be reverted to his human form - he was actually more recognisable as a demon. He had all his features, it was like he'd been hiding in plain sight all along - but I didn't see it coming until Willow questioned if she'd encountered him before. And he looked cooler as a demon too.
Great way to end a issue

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