Thank you for this, I for one I am pleased to see what Al Gough said.

Simon | February 24, 16:36 CET

It was nice to hear from the Smallville camp, and it's good that they see us as allies on the network, rather than as competitors :-)

brob1 | February 24, 17:04 CET

Yes indeed, who knows it might be worthwhile approaching Smallville fans to see if they will help the various Save Angel campaigns.

Simon | February 24, 17:13 CET

From the article:

-The last word goes to Family Guy creator Seth McFarlane. "I didn't realise that Angel was still on the air. I guess I'll never get to work on a Joss Whedon show now."

Wow, what a completely idiotic thing to say. First, to make fun of Angel by pretending to not know it was on television, then basically saying that Joss Whedon will never be able to have another show. Asshole.

prufrock | February 24, 18:04 CET

prufrock - if you have ever heard Seth in his commentary or interviews - he is very Joss like - and I mean very Joss like - he is always making comments like that about his own show (which by the way is a FOX product) - so take what he says with a grain of salt and understand his humor - if I'm not mistaken he said the same thing when they canceled Family Guy the first time out on FOX - cause they kept doing the TV shuffle with him like they did to Firefly and the WB did to Angel last year.

RavenU | February 24, 18:14 CET

Yeah, what a jerk! I've been intrigued about that show because people seem to regard it highly but I'll never spend a penny on it now.

Otherwise, very nice article. I can't believe they were at dinner when Levin told Joss--how uncomfortable! How do you finish eating after that?! What do you talk about? I hate that man.

marmoset | February 24, 18:14 CET

RavenU--Ah, you think he's being sarcastic? Well, that's a different story then...

marmoset | February 24, 18:15 CET

Also if I'm not to mistaken Joss made a similar comment about Seth's show when it was canceled. I think these two guys must be friends - cause they seem to have similar personalities - plus they do have a known link to each other by the way of Seth Green who has been on both shows.

stakeholder - if you ever seen Family Guy you know he has a sarcastic streak. I think he meant that Angel went the way of Family Guy it would be back. I think he knows how well Angel DVD sells and he knows how much it cost to make and it isn't to far off what it cost to make his show and because of strong DVD sales and a loyal fanbase it's coming back. I'm starting to feel that FOX is shopping it around before announcing it will pick it up and send it straight to DVD next season - that's what it did to Family Guy and still is only Family Guy will be on the Cartoon Network with the episodes as well around the same time those episodes come out on DVD.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-02-24 16:27 ]

RavenU | February 24, 18:19 CET

I'm a fan of sarcasm myself, but if someone wants to be sarcastic in an written interview, they should make sure the reporter acknowledges as such, otherwise they come off sounding like an idiot.

prufrock | February 24, 18:22 CET

Al Gough is probably aware that some Angel fans started watching Smallville this year while waiting for Angel to come on, I know I'm one of them. So I wonder if he feels Smallville ratings will be a little lower after Angel leaves. Anyway, it was nice to see that he was just as surprised as the rest of us....

lala | February 24, 18:31 CET

Yes but if the reporter did that the story wouldn't be as interesting then would it prufrock. Remember reporters wanted to be read as much as shows want to be watched so you got to have a little bite in their somewhere. I mean even Tim M comments were a little biting and attitudish - well it failed cause I left - if you didn't know how he normally was you might find that insulting to Joss and the rest of the show - not to mention egotistical on Tim's part.

RavenU | February 24, 18:31 CET

The thing I find insulting is that the WB alleged to the fans of Angel that THEY approached Joss and told him that Angel wasn't coming back because "this great show" deserved to have the time to wrap up its storyline. So to find out that Joss only found out because he directly asked Jordan Levin and then was told is another slap in the face to Joss and the fans of Angel. They try to make themselves sound like they cared so much for the fans and the series that it deserved the time to wrap it all up and that's why they let Joss know now. Of course they neglect to mention that they only told him because he came right out and asked them. Then they immediately went and released that press release to make themselves sound better and like they actually cared. It's more disgusting to me now knowing the whole story.

Firefly Flanatic | February 24, 19:20 CET

Yeah he's obviously an @hole but he's a network exec so what did we expect? The thing is he didn't have to tell Joss at all - he could easily have played the usual @hole games and left everybody dangling till the last minute. And then where would we be with our save angel campaigns? I agree it's pretty slimy to try and take "credit" for being the big man and telling it straight out ahead of time. But I'm SO glad he did.

[ edited by melsta on 2004-02-24 17:42 ]

melsta | February 24, 19:41 CET

blwessels-- Exactly!
When Levin was hand-selected by the former head of the WB, he became "one of the youngest network presidents in the history of broadcast television". And an evil acorn that didn't fall far from the tree. I think he must also have an ego as big as all outdoors and some jealousy and resentment towards someone who has the word "genius' ascribed to his talents. That's just my opinion.

bloodflowers | February 24, 20:17 CET

Ok I didn't know where to post this but I thought this thread was as good as any.Last Friday I picked up a copy of USA Today because it was talking about shows leaving the air this season. Wel after scanning over it there was only one line that mentioned Angel "And it was just announced last week this isthe final season of Angel.", so same old stuff and not worth mentioning really and Ididn't botherreading the rest of the article until today - I was bored. Then I came across the line that sent me into ROFLMAO, that is in the season finale of another show called Becker (one of Angel's competition this year btw). Anyway I'll get straight to it and I think Joss needs to do something similar on Angel in the last episode. Ok for those of you who have never seen Becker - it's a Ted Danson (Cheers) show about a doctor in a clinic - it's a sitcom. The following line gones down in my history books as one of the all time best jabs ever done and the episode this aired on was the last episode CBS showed in Jan - the show has not offically been canceled but the writers and producers saw the writing on the wall when they added the line - anyway finally here's the line.

The setup is the patients name is Mr Nielsen.

Becker : (looking at the patients chart) I don't see what the problem is. These numbers aren't so bad."

Also another interesting thing that was brought up was that series finales always bring in big numbers and the network can charge more in advertising for the finale episode of a series. So the question becomes did the WB do this to Angel to jump on the bandwagon to get the attention, the ratings, and the advertising dollars and after the episode airs turn around and say because of the fans demand we have changed are minds and giving it another season. Basically using us to get the network more free publicity, ok I have the shivers - the WB is W&H in the flesh if this is the case.

RavenU | February 24, 20:34 CET

"an evil acorn"

Heh. For some reason, that's a kind of hilarious thought. I do agree with you, though, bloodflowers. Not laughing at your opinion or anything.

Interesting article, though. Must of been one heck of an awkard dinner. The sad thing is, going into it, Joss was probably expecting to have coffee and dessert after the meal, rather than nausea.

Just wondering: Do you think there would have been any less of a chance of cancellation if The WB were left to sit with the decision for a little longer? Please don't get me wrong--I'm not questioning Joss's decision to ask them upfront, for the sake of his stories and crew, nor am I trying to give any reprieve to The Powers That Shouldn't Be. Just hypotheticallying is all. So don't redirect your angry mobs towards my house--they have other, more important places to torch.

[ edited by VampiresSuckLOLOLGetIt on 2004-02-24 18:42 ]

VampiresSuckLOLOLGetIt | February 24, 20:39 CET

"So the question becomes did the WB do this to Angel to jump on the bandwagon to get the attention, the ratings, and the advertising dollars and after the episode airs turn around and say because of the fans demand we have changed are minds and giving it another season."

I kind of hope that's the case, as evil as the plot is, because if it meant another season of Angel it would be great but I'm hoping UPN swoops in and steals the thunder again like they did with Buffy. So if it is the case, the WB gets screwed this time!!

Firefly Flanatic | February 24, 20:42 CET

VampiresSuckLOLOLGetIt - No, I think they were planning it all season and the writing on the wall for all of us should've been the annoucement of "Dark Shadows" coming next season.

Firefly Flanatic | February 24, 20:44 CET

I remember RavenU calling it (Angel's dire position) when the Dark Shadows thing was announced. I tried not to go there, but she was right. RavenU, have you thought of becoming a professional seer? Heh.

phlebotinin | February 24, 20:52 CET

Nah phlebotinin - it's not a seer thing, it's simple observation and common sence thing. You watch Hollywood long enouh you figured out the game and you see this coming. Actually I saw this from the beginning of the season with the lack of promotion for the show especially after the departure of Buffy fromthe air. They had ample opportunity to promote it but they didn't use it to their advantage.

RavenU | February 24, 21:04 CET

Yes, RavenU, I should've credited you for saying that all along. I was thinking of you when I made that statement. I think a lot of us just take your uncanny knowledge of these things for granted. I know, though, you probably wish you were wrong.

[ edited by blwessels on 2004-02-24 19:09 ]

Firefly Flanatic | February 24, 21:08 CET

Well, I appreciate your observations, RavenU, since I'm not much of a Hollywood watcher and definitely don't have much common sense! :) I do remember you posting "Angel is in trouble, guys" messages before the Dark Shadows announcement.

Those WB execs really take the cake. I was recently reading the newly revised "Hollywood Vampire" guide to AtS and the author goes into some detail about how the WB was strangely apathetic about promoting Angel during season four despite ratings gains. And then they pulled it off the air for two months and moved it to a different night. You have to wonder how intelligent these WB folks really are. Here they are investing all this money in a product and then they basically set it up to fail. Doesn't sound like smart business to me.

phlebotinin | February 24, 21:12 CET

Actually I saw this from the beginning of the season with the lack of promotion for the show especially after the departure of Buffy fromthe air. They had ample opportunity to promote it but they didn't use it to their advantage.

You have a good point there. I was always curious about why I saw those "Buffy and Angel back together!" syndication promos more than I saw promos for the new Angel episode...
A hint by WB that Angel would soon be joining it's estranged sister show? Hmmm?

protector | February 24, 21:13 CET

RavenU-- Why did they even bother to renew Angel for the fifth season? Just to ignore it? Talk about passive agressive... Uh oh. Isn't James Marsters contract for two years? Do they own his soul now or something?

bloodflowers | February 24, 21:18 CET

I know this has been said, but they renewed the 5th season to get to the 100th Episode mark... it's all about money...

tvmoobunny | February 24, 21:57 CET

Bloodflowers - one reason in particular - looking back over the WB's group of pilot offerings was way beyond weak Tarazan and OTH were the strongest and I think the WB knew that so best to keep Angel around and take advantage of BTVS leaving before it left - ride the wave of Buffy's free advertising because of it's departure to promote Spike's move to Angel. Remember the WB announced Spike was going to be on Angel before Buffy left the air last year, but after Buffy left they no longer promoted it - they seem to love to get free publicity but not paying for or working for any regarding using the show. This season was no different - I mean last year they sounded like they picked up the show for a full season and yet we found out the whole season was only half with an option. To put it simply it's just more of the WB slimy tatics. They never planned on giving Angel another season after this one. Believe me, I wish I had been wrong - I wanted to hear everyone say "I told you so." (and after the winterpress junkit even my hopes were on the rise) but from the beginning of this season I could see the writing on the wall. Another reason maybe they didn't want UPN to take Angel as well - afterall UPN had made arrangements with FOX last season if Angel did not get picked up by the WB to bring it to UPN.

As for James contract that is with ME not the WB so yeah they signed him for 2 years and actualy all the cast had recently signed contracts for another season - whose contracts were up that is.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-02-24 20:14 ]

RavenU | February 24, 22:09 CET

Yeah I think RavenU is right on a lot of fronts. I think if Tarzan and BoP and stuff had really taken off Angel may have gotten the can earlier. I truly believe too, and have for a while now, that they never had any intention of going for a S6. They weren't even sure about a full 5th season and didn't tell anyone. Angel was just filler to them until they got their new stuff on track. (May it all crash and burn.)

Bastards. That it's all still a business is one thing, but this shows such disregard for so many people involved, from fans to creators. And such an obvious example about how execs truly don't give a rat's ass about their actual products.

Poor Joss, to hear that at that dinner table, while he probably felt confident about the whole thing. I can only imagine the expression on his face.

*In a perfect world, 'WB' would stand for 'Whedon Broadcasting'.*

EdDantes | February 24, 22:31 CET

Thanks for the crash course on the "slimy tactics" of the WB, RavenU. I guess I should be grateful that I don't understand the motives of network executives. Okay, I do understand greed being the prime motivation, but as I said in a post a few days ago, why does it always have to come down to greed? I'm certainly not an idealist. I know there are things in this world that suck a whole lot more, but g*dammit! Angel was one of the few things I could look forward to that didn't.

bloodflowers | February 24, 22:41 CET

It makes me furious that Angel could have gone to UPN after season four and lasted through at least a sixth season if the EVIL and STUPID WB hadn't renewed it for a fifth season for temporary filler purposes. It does seem that those slimeballs never planned to give Angel a sixth. What a disaster.

In a perfect world, "WB" would stand for "Whipped & Beaten."

phlebotinin | February 24, 23:14 CET

*In a perfect world, 'WB' would stand for 'Whedon Broadcasting'.*

Ed, that would definitely be a perfect world!!

Greyflowers | February 24, 23:24 CET

Ed, that would definitely be a perfect world!!

Yeah and I keep hoping to wake up in it. Some dimensional cross jump? It could happen! No go so far.(I check every morning;-) As for 'Whipped and Beaten': wait till those new shows of theirs bomb. Hahahaha.

And man the idea that Angel already going to UPN for this season stings even more now. I could definitely see how it could have happened. More chance the UPN would want it, more chance of a S6. I can also definitely see how the WB preferred to prevent that too. Grnnf....

*In a perfect world, 'WB' would stand for 'Whedon Broadcasting'.*

EdDantes | February 24, 23:59 CET

Think of all the cross overs they could've done too if they had both gone to UPN when Buffy did.

Firefly Flanatic | February 25, 01:18 CET