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February 25 2004

Hercules has seen tonight's 5 STAR Angel!!! 5 fricking stars, must be brilliant if "You're Welcome" only got 3.5 (the discussion thread for S5x15 'A Hole in the World' and why not chat about the episode in our Whedonsque chat box at flickr)

Nooooooooooo! Not more Joss-written mayhem! I don't know if I can take it. Cordy's death was hard to begin with...
Come, evening! Come quickly, nightfall! Be over already, Smallville -- I got to watch me some Angel.
i am very excited about tonights episode, if it's half as good as it looks i am in for a treat (a nummy treat at that) :)
-jumps up and down like a crazy person-
i am sooooooo excited for this episode!!! bring it on joss!!
Much anticipation here!!! The hours are not passing quick enough!!! I guess I better get the Puffs ready. Looks like it's going to be a "cry through the whole thing...then get a thumping headache" episode. Which reminds me...take Excedrin at 8:45pm. :)
A Cordy reference? Oh, thank god. But what's this about:

"And more than one major Buffiverse character may die this week."
Damn - I need a T1 line - so I can get the episode - already has it posted for highspeed download - I am now sitting at a cybercafe trying to download it but it's to slow and I think everyone else is trying to download it as well.
It's. reaaaally. good. :-) Gonna watch it again now, straight away. (Download was fast, but I get it elsewhere.)
I always use when I miss an episode, but it usually takes several hours, and I have DSL at home.
I'm on dawn-of-time dial up.

If I want to download an episode, it takes me a week.
It doesn't stop me from trying though. :) It's just that I won't get the episode before it actually airs, anyhow. Which I've learned to be okay with. I've realized it's sometimes the anticipation that often adds so much more to the episode. Sometimes, having that commercial break, just makes whatever's coming next so much cooler.
Just got it, one of the great days (as with "Chosen") when I in England get to see it before the Americans.
Took just over 3 hours for over 400 megs, not bad considering how long it has taken before.
I've just finished downloading this Torrent thing and it's been close to 10 minutes, and only 3 MB have downloaded.. and I have cable, too!

I also agree that it's much cooler watching it when it originally airs on television because of the anticipation and I'll probably do that considering this is going to take forever to download. The only reason I'm downloading it is because my friend borrowed my tape from last week's, "Smile Time" and I'm broke and don't have any other empty tapes to record Angel with.
Bittorrents downloads speed up as they go along. They almost always start up slow and are lightning fast near the end. If you are lucky to catch a download when it's just released you can't pull it in in 20 minutes. Well, if you have a fast adsl line, that is.
Amended the post to mention that it's the discussion thread and that Whedonesque posters can now chat about the episode at flickr.
Bloody brilliant, can't describe how, or why, it just was. Couldn't believe it had been 45 minutes already when it finished. An episode that goes from hilarious, to having me nearly in tears (takes a hell of a lot, only "Chosen" has actually managed it).
Adds to the huge mountains of proof that Jordan Levin has obviously never watched an episode of "Angel".
This season seems to be chock full of 'Best episode ever's.
Yes, this season has definitely been a good one so far. Makes it even worse that this is possibly the last. Damn you, WB! Come on, UPN, where are you when we need you!
Okay, I didn't know where to post this where most of you guys would see it, so I'm just going to post it here. This is a little something a friend and I came up with that I like to call "The Top 10 Ways Angel Can Continue On The WB". I hope you all get a good laugh out of this.

1. Angel is magically transformed into a star basketball player in his late teens, who fights the evil of the world without a shirt on. He is an enormous slut who sleeps with every woman who is attracted to him. He has numerous fights with the cocky and arrogant Spike, his long lost "brother" from the obligatory wrong side of the tracks. (One Tree Hill)

2. Every member of the cast sleeps with every other member of the cast in just one season. They then spend the rest of the show's run overanalyzing their relationship dilemmas and using way too many big words. (Dawson’s Creek)

3. Angel has an urge to become a minister, but is worried about his family. Connor experiments with smoking cigarettes, Fred dares to have premarital sex, Gunn is banished due to the fact that there can be no minorities on the show, and Lorne leaves the show to go to college after Andy Hallett poses too provocatively in a magazine. (7th Heaven)

4. Every single episode of Angel deals with the sexual angst and struggles of a troubled Angel. There are tons of supermodel women in every episode attracted to our hero, but none of them know that he is a vampire. Strangely, all of these women want to rip the entrails out of Buffy, who he loves, but he cannot tell her because he has the confidence and IQ of a fruit fly. Gunn also finds himself curiously void of any storylines and hardly shows up for any episodes. Angel also finds tons of garlic spread all over L.A., and he seems to run into it at the most inconvenient times. (Smallville)

5. In the new season of Angel, Wolfram and Hart has vanished, and the gang is forced to move to the quaint town of Smalltowninthemiddleofnowhere, CA. Every single person in this new town is perfectly nice, charming, and ALWAYS has something witty, amusing, or longwinded to say. They have interesting quirks, emotional problems like you can’t believe, and always eat at the only café in town. Angel also develops a strange craving for very strong coffee. (Gilmore Girls)

6. All of the evil of the world has been extinguished. Life is good. Angel has a blood belly. But all of that fame and fortune the group saw when they worked at Wolfram and Hart has faded, and they need some cash to keep up their previously fabulous lifestyle. The gang comes up with the ingenious idea to go live in a house together for their lives to be filmed! Angel dresses and speaks like someone who was born 232 years ago. He doesn’t say anything besides "Where is the ale?" Fred becomes an alcoholic who insists on seeing Angel's most private parts. Gunn gets angry that everyone still sees him as a street tough and throws tantrums every five minutes, then insists he has no anger issues. Harmony wears way too much make-up and starts reading The Bible. (Surreal Life)

7. To fight evil, Angel and his gang of helpers go undercover and pretend to be evil. While undercover, Angel and the gang piss off their targets by doing entirely annoying and stupid things to them. Eventually, the evil they are fighting gets so pissed off that their heads explode. (Jamie Kennedy)

8. After getting bored with Wolfram and Hart, Angel decides to move to Arkansas, where he lives with a hick family and has no money to spend. He tries to help out around the farm and even gets a job at the local Sonic, but he ruins everything he touches. He steals money from the family he is living with to go drinking and whoring. He's lazy and more of a pest than anything else, but naturally does not give a shit about it. (The Simple Life)

9. Angel is voted the sexiest man alive by 'Studly CEOs Weekly', so he and his gang decide to host their own version of The Bachelor. The gang rounds up 30 eligible women, but the twist is that some of them are vengeance demons trying to goad Angel into making horrible wishes! Will Angel find true love, or accidentally wish for Lorne to be eviscerated. Watch and find out! (too many shows to list)

10. Joss Whedon decides to toss out all the intelligence, subtext, depth and continuity from his show. His only concern in season 6 is making sure that Fred and Harmony get dressed up as mermaids, genies, gypsies, candy stripers, and whatever other bare midriff outfits are available. Oh, and there's lots of magic too. (Charmed)
OMG - this is not television this is freakin film LOTR worthy.
Oh gosh. Laughing, crying, and now I don't know how I'm going to last until next week without going neurotic and resulting to reading spoilers.

This show is too good for TV.
damn...........sniff.............damn.............whedon can kiss my ass...........damn................thewb can kiss my ass even more.........damn......
Okay, let me get this strait. This is the show the WB wants to cancel??? One of the best hours of TV I've seen all year, hell, one of the best hours of TV I've seen in a couple of years. This is the show the WB is going to cancel??? This is just so wrong.
So many things to like about tonight I don't know where to begin but I can say I did get a chill with, Not this girl. Not this day. And who knew Lorne had it in him?
wow something big must of happened huh?
That was a simply frickin' amazing episode.

(And I knew, just *knew* that the thing Gunn got through customs was going to be the plot point, and they had me yelling at commercials because I couldn't wait to see how they were going to reveal it.)
It is definitely worth the five stars. It was awesome. You can always tell when Joss writes the episode. (aside from seeing it in the credits I mean) The dialogue is just snappier and oh so Joss. Also, I LOVED seeing Alec Newman (Muad'Dib from Dune) playing The Keeper of The Well. Spike and Angel working together was also great. They have awesome chemistry. I could go on and on..but I'll stop here. Can I just repeat how much I HATE the WB for cancelling Angel? GRRRRRR ARRRRGH!
And what aboout the shout out to Aly - with Spike's line about catching something at the West End - who knew Spike would go to the theatre :)

OMG - laughing and crying at the same time, still.
um - * timidly steps out of hiding * - I'm so disappointed. I found the show melodramatic in a wholly predictable, not at all Whedonesque way... starting from last week putting Fred & Wes together so they could have a their tragic time together... reading the Little Princess???? ... & didn't we do the whole everyone's favorite female character possessed by evil demon LAST YEAR!! ** proceeds to duck and cover **
Okay, let's hash it out. Dark Willow Vs. Dark Fred, who would win?
That's a tough one because we don't quite know the full extent of Fred's powers.
But the difference is that they didn't have any warning with Cordy. This time with Fred, they had time and they all failed miserably. It's ANGST. ANNNNNNNNNGGGGST.

Bring it on!
Gingeriffic - I'm glad I'm not the only one. I second every single thing you just said!
They did it last year, but unlike Evil Cordy, this was actually well done, and was believable. Plus we get some info about the Old Ones...I bet the Master would've loved to have seen this.

Just a great episode. One of the greatest. Things kinda come to a head for everyone. Gunn is slipping, and this thing with Fred is just gonna push him over the edge. Angel and Spike are finally figuring out how to deal with each other (St. Petersburg? I thought you'd forgotten). I can't wait to see how Wesley reacts knowing Angel COULD have saved Fred. And Lorne with the violence!

Just amazing television.
hmmmmm, i'm turning green and getting all this extra strength for some reason, i wonder what is causing this. *eyes melsta and Gingeriffic* hmmm........

[ edited by 400lb_Gorilla on 2004-02-26 05:30 ]
plot, acting, dialogue, character development
all perfect
sometimes no words - the expression on Angel's face at the end of the ep

and we have to give this up for some lowest common denominator drivel - a laugh tracked monstrosity or a so-called-reality show


this sucks
Gingeriffic - are you saying you saw the Lorne thing coming and that you weren't moved by the way Angel and Spike seem to fall back into a comfortable fighting stance with each other as a team instead of fighting against each other all the time. Yes the base story is as old as time that is a given and what makes it epic but this was with classic Whedon touch bringing it to a level higher than TV is worthy of. Predictibility is a given but the way it is pulled off by the emotions put into is what makes it special - even LOTR is predictable - it's how they tell the tale that takes it beyond being average.
That was absolutely the best Angel episode to date. Herc was absolutely correct in his assessment....I still can't believe how amazing that was...I'm going to have to watch it again.
i know i've made comments about references to monty python in the 'verse before (to amused response)

but that whole thing with the questions is right out of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" (especially when Spike starts reeling off his question list)

and Angel and Spike were chopping up the "knights"

so where is Anya's killer bunny?

That was abso-freaking-lutely hilarious.
RavenU - I thought Lorne & Gunn were both interesting in this episode. But of course Lorne has it in him to be violently angry at Eve - don't we all? Angel & Spike working together when their agendas happen to coincide isn't new... & that they used an old gimmick together was funny but not heartwarming for me.

Of course I could just be extra-cranky tonight & upon rewatching whilst in a better mood I'll see the light!
I actually think this was one of the weakest installments of this seasons. Very good, but not exceptional. It was a little bit clunky, too. Joss Whedon hasn't been able to write exceptionally well since "Firefly" was cancelled. Dark Fred? Meh. Dark Willow was lame. Evil Cordy was a good idea, but--you just don't make Cordy evil, that's just wrong. Next week's DeKnight episode looks like it could be better, or maybe worse.
Well, everything isn't gonna please everyone. Even if the said "thing" is brilliant. Why, I even know people that Hate (with a capital H) everything Whedon's ever done. I just get to rest easy in knowing those people are wrong. :D
Maybe someone should write a public service announcement about the dangers of getting too emotionally involved in television shows. These dangers manifest in several ways and include, but are not limited to: 1. excessive taping and rewatching, 2. getting angry and heartbroken when such shows are cancelled, 3. crying when characters you have grown to love die. Lovely and heartbreaking episode.
I was just reading one of the posts from the above link. Someone wrote this...

"Speaking of Cavemen vs. Astronauts, I didn't realize till Fred's comment near the end that it was a parallel to the episode. The cavemen (old ones) overcome the astronaut (Fred the scientist, the enbodiment of future technology)... We think astronauts will beat caveman because (they are) smarter, but that's exactly (why the) cavemen win."

Maybe Im just an idiot and everyone else just picked up on this and didnt mention it. Either way leave it Whedon to sneak something as profound as this into a joke...

"Do the Austronauts have weapons?"
RE: astronauts v. cavemen. Someone mentioned in another forum that one of the writers posted a year ago about how ME writers would often get into tangents when they're supposed to be working and one example was a heated astronauts vs cavemen argument. Interesting to see how ideas can originate (cf Tim Minear's dirty joke that became a crucial plot point from the third season on).

Note also that Angel and Spike are in a cave, and thus literally cavemen. What does that mean, if anything? Who knows...

[ edited by KernelM on 2004-02-26 05:56 ]
Every time I was afraid the episode was going to veer off into drippy melodrama Whedon pulled it back from the brink -- brilliantly. In my opinion, anyway. A powerhouse episode, a stunning confluence of events and character developments upon which the rest of the season will pivot.

In the middle of this amazing piece of television, an ad appeared for an upcoming reality show on the WB entitled something like "Class Reunion." I almost barfed all over my tv. Jordan Levin and his ilk have a special circle of hell reserved just for them.

I loved the idea of the hole in the world -- it's a spookily wonderful deepening of the mythology. Well, I loved the demons-in-coffins in a hollow earth anyway, not the hole in the Fang Gang's world left by Fred's demise.

I can't wait to see next week.
I wasn't as impressed with this week's episode as everyone else seems to be, but I won't deny it was quality television and absolutely brilliant. Very emotional, as well. They covered so many different things in such a short amount of time, it definitely warrants several repeat viewings. I know I'll appreciate it even more with those viewings.

I'm really looking forward to next week's episode. Not only does it look really interesting, but I'm eager to see Amy Acker playing an all together different kind of character.
Greyflowers-I am in complete agreement with you. Especially about Amy playing someone totally different. Can't wait!
Fred is utterly gone, so it won't be "Evil Fred." It's Illyria inhabiting Fred's empty shell of a human body. Which is to me more ghastly than Evil Willow and Evil Cordy.

Why is it mainly women that Joss kills when he kills off major supporting characters? I'm not talking villains here, but beloved inner circle people:

1. Jenny Calendar
2. Joyce Summers
3. Tara
4. Anya
5. Cordelia
6. Fred


1. Jesse (not sure he counts since we never got to know him)
2. Doyle

It's late, I'm tired and I'm suffering from hellish episode hangover, so I'm sure I'm leaving something or someone out. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem to me that Joss likes to kill off the girls. Maybe it's from his earlier days as a love-spurned, miserable high schooler? :)
My guess it's because, generally, females are more sympathetic. It's important to note that he never kills women in an uncaring manner. When he kills someone, people feel it, and it's important. I don't know why, but the fairer sex is generally a much better conduit for getting us to those places emotionally.
...and most of those deaths are at the fault of Evil Men. The only completely blameless death of the bunch was Joyce, and if you're so inclined to think the great "Sky Bully" is a man, then that would count too.
I'm with ringworm. Those deaths were all so heartbreaking. Especially since the death of Fred came like 10 seconds after she got with Wesley, and the death of Tara came 10 seconds after she made up with Will, and ... well, the death of Anya just sucked. Her short shrift was the main problem I had with season 7.

The deaths all sucked and tore our hearts out with the veins still attached. I love you, Joss.
My thoughts too, ringworm. Maybe Joss kills the girls 'cause he loves them more? You know? It's twisted, but don't you get wrapped up in -- project more of yourself, your life and death urges, your passions -- into the things you love? He's more drawn to women than men because women are 'Other', the mystery, so he's rapt, more adoring of enacting drama through their emotiveness and way of experiencing the world, so as a writer he's drawn like iron filings to the magnetic power of their potential for expressing his inner emotions? There's nothing more beautiful than a handful of flowers -- and nothing sadder than those same flowers being crushed before our eyes.

Or I could be completely wrong. ;)

Did I mention how much I love this episode? I must go compose (after watching AHITW again) a postcard to Jordan Levin, explaining the fundamentals of my renewed outrage at further proof of his network's idiocy:

Angel = smart. WB = stupid. Simple!
This is the second week in a row that I've actually rewatched, and I haven't done that since season three. The cancellation feels crueler than ever.

Anyway, I've already babbled endlessly in my own journal about this, but two things that I thought might be worth bringing up again:

1. I'm betting that Fred isn't truly, permanently dead. In The Little Princess (which was the book that Wesley was reading to Fred from), little Sarah, away at boarding school while her father goes off to fight in a war, is informed that he is missing and is presumed dead. Sarah refuses to believe this, and searches for her father until, against all odds, she finds him badly injured but alive. Plus, I find it hard to believe that they'd really kill off their only female lead for good. (Edited to add that I was corrected below; she's reunited with her father in the movie versions, not in the book. I'm still sure that the book was not chosen haphazardly, though. Maybe others would care to hazard a guess about the significance of this choice?)

2. The song that Eve sang so that Lorne could read her was "L.A.," which David Greenwalt wrote for Lindsey to sing in episode 2.18. How perfect.

Okay, off to write some beseeching postcards to UPN now!

[ edited by keever on 2004-02-26 10:12 ]

[ edited by keever on 2004-02-26 10:13 ]
Oh, keever... nice observations. I had gone completely braindead on the Little Princess story, so I missed that potential bit of foreshadowing(? - One can hope). And I didn't even know the bit about the song.

Thanks for sharing. :)
You can always tell a Joss episode. It's always just a bit crisper, sharper, and smarter than the others. Not that the others aren't great, but you can tell a difference. This was just brilliant. My one and only complaint, as noted by others, is that the idea of a demon taking over the beloved female character has sort of already been done. In this show. Just last season. I kind of expected better from Joss, of all people. But I guess I'll wait and see how this plays out.

I also hope she's not really dead, but you never can tell. I'd doubt if Angel had a season 6 that she would be, but now that they probably won't, wouldn't it be just like Joss to make her be dead for good? Then we'd have a bunch of depressed, lonely blokes sitting around a bar in the final episode. And I hope it's not another 'you have to kill the beloved female before she destroys the world' scenario. But I think Joss will come up with something fresh. Afterall, he's not going to recycle the idea entirely.

But I agree with whomever said it, it seems like this is pretty much a dead Fred shell. I know in Joss land, dead doesn't always mean dead, but she seemed pretty dead to me. Except now her shell is some hybrid Mystique/Storm lookin' gal. Which I'm sure will just tickle my hubby to no end.....
Well had to answer that one, since I brought Rogue Slayer into the fold.

Yeah, great episode. I you CAN tell a when it's a Joss episode. Things flow just a bit better, things are just a little funnier, snappier, original and surprising. Not been writing well since Firefly? Oookay, not even going into that one. Anyway, lots of great moments, the good stuff, as ever, in the details. The cavemen vs astronauts thing with all the double meanings, Lorne catching Fred's short singing moment and knowing instantly. Lorne and the 'Eve moment', ahem. "If I had your future to face...?" Gunn's guilt and how he's killing Knox more to quiet him than out of revenge. Spike and Angel....well literally all of their contact this episode was every hope come true that I had when I heard Spike would move to this show.

Their battle with the guardians was great, and overall it's clear how they have come to accept each other (Angel evem referring to Spike as a champion) when push comes to shove. Great, great stuff. Dialogue with double meanings all over the place that makes rewatching it so great.

As for the point my wife and some others make, the similarity in bare concept (female of the team taken over by ancient evil that wants to return to earth) yes no contest. But there are a zillion stories with the same concepts, and this one was already as old as grit. It's what they DO with it that matters. And that's new.

Dark Willow was different because it was just Willow herself. No one taking over. The Cordy thing coms closer, but when she was 'possessed' she pretended to be Cordy (even we didn't know for a long while) so the team wasn't aware, and when they were Cordy almost immediately gave way to Jasmin who was her own separate entity.

Here Fred is dead. And what's left of her physical form is being worn like a coat by an entity. That gives it all a different dynamic when it comes to the characters, what they have to face, and go through, the decisions they make, the guilt some of them bear for causing it or not stopping it, what they have to do now, etc. etc.

The basic concept of 'ancient evil' isn't even what the story is about. It never is on Joss' shows. They're just window dressing, or background setting on which what really matters takes place, the characters and their emotional journey, .

This was a classic episode and I can't wait for next week.
Oh! And I forgot! Someone mentioned the nods to Aly's play. I totally missed that! And the nods to The Holy Grail! Brilliant! "What's your favorite color? What's your favorite song?" Hah!

And in the same vein, redfern mentioned Anya's killer bunny, like the white killer bunny from 'Grail'... Well, Fred's stuffed toy was a white bunny. Maybe reading too much into it now, but I just thought I'd mention it.
I think that it's great that they finally made a reference to Cordy, they probably waited for now to make the reference actually mean something instead of making it mindless exposition. Also, I don't know if it was just in my market, but i got really offended after i watched an AMAZING EPISODE!!!, just to not have the "grr arggh" sounding. They had the ME logo, but they were promoting One Tree Hill during that, i was just so offended and it was really uncalled for.
Actually, in the book The Little Princess, Sara's father doesn't come back. She gets adopted by someone else. (I want to say her father's best friend, but I could be wrong.) It's only in the movie version that her father comes back. But if it's a reference, hopefully Joss and Co. go by the movie.

Brilliant episode. I was prepared for Fred to die, not to turn evil. It made me a lot more excited about the rest of the season.
Doh! You're right, katayla. My brain must have morphed the book and movies after all these years. I think in both movie versions, he comes back. So, er, two movies trumps one book, and Fred shall live again! And still, Sarah gives the non-believers their comeuppance. Okay, reaching now. But I've always loved Fred, and even if the show doesn't continue and it ends up being essentially moot anyway, I'll be sad to see her go.

[ edited by keever on 2004-02-26 10:10 ]
I just saw this posted by Robert Kral (Angel composer) at the Bronze Beta.

Many are wondering so I'll say something!

"A Hole in the World" was fully edited before we got the bad news.

(The OTHER bad news, that is).

Wow. It was really generous of Joss Whedon to acknowledge Cordelia's death (and existence as a character for 3 seasons on Buffy and 4 on Angel) on tonight's episode. When Angel said, "I lost Cordy" it really made me think how much time and effort went into that line, and what a gift to give to Charisma Carpenter herself! When Joss says that he cares about these characters, and these actors, I wasn't sure if I believed him. But hearing those three words coming out of Angel's mouth and after only waiting two weeks to see any acknowledgement of Cordelia's death, it made me realize how democratic and fair he is, and how wonderfully Joss, ME, and the WB have treated Charisma and the character she worked seven years to build. CC must be on cloud nine!
New theory re: The Little Princess (not mine, but I've lost track of where I read this now) -- Fred might have liked it because it details the story of a girl who was taken away from the life that she knew and was forced to live in an attic, where she was treated poorly but eventually triumphed. Given Fred's experience in Pylea, she might have identified with Sarah's plight and found comfort in the relatively happy ending. There was a line in the episode referring to the time that she spent living in the cave, and another referencing Angel saving her, so a Pylea recall would seem in line here.
Loved it...everything about it. The Spike/Angel bonding especially was touching. The reference to Cordy finally makes sense, Angel truly did love her I think. I feel so bad for Angel right now....the Fang Gang really screwed up big time and it's finally dawning on them. Please them a way out of this mess. Loved how Angel didn't even bat an eye when he referred to Spike as a's about time. I don't know how all this is going to play out but if each episode gets better and better I think we are in for a slam dunk ending. Too bad the WB has blinders on. Come on UPN...look at what you could gain by picking up this gem!!!!!
okay, what hasn't been brought up...someone I was watching with asked why they didn't have Fred flown to England? Now that may have been a time issue, but how about this? What's the difference between killing 100,000 people and saving Fred, and the unknown number of people will be be killed (could be even more) by letting one of the old ones walk the earth again?
Cause they were not sure if the infomation was accurate or not remember the reference came from Eve - and in Fred's condition they knew they could do nothing for her if they brought her along. Cause they may still think they'd have a chance against one demon - afterall something killed it before.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-02-26 16:07 ]
ravenU, I'll buy the why not take Fred, but the they can beat the "Old One" thing is hard to swallow. They don't have a lot of information on the old ones, and yes, something did kill it once, before recorded history, i.e. another old one.
Oh! And I forgot! Someone mentioned the nods to Aly's play. I totally missed that! And the nods to The Holy Grail! Brilliant! "What's your favorite color? What's your favorite song?" Hah!

And how about Spike's remark about the cave entrance: Christmas land! How how I love "The Nightmare Before Christams!" ...I was thinking more along the lines of "Sleepy Hollow", but hey, same director :).

And yes! Great episode!
They don't have a lot of information on the old ones, and yes, something did kill it once, before recorded history, i.e. another old one.

Hmmm...You might be on to something, there...

[ edited by RTADoyle on 2007-10-27 11:33 ]
Jack - Remember the watcher of the well cannot lie - and Angel and Spike are still there - so why not ask him how the demon died before - I'm sure he would know how his charges arrived in his stead.

Or perhaps someone who can tap into the power of the earth, like a goddess, who holds the meaning of magic. :)

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-02-26 16:35 ]
"Giles is a great supporting lead, but the ntworks might be turned off by what is essentially an old man tearing stuff up."

Good lord, Anthony Stewart Head is only in his late 40s!

But RTADoyle, you have a good point about the potential setup for a Spike spinoff. Interesting. Very interesting.
Well, not much in these 72 posts that hasn't been said already--Whedonesque posters are nothing if not thorough--but that was definitely one of the best episodes of anything I've watched, ever. Everything about it was so well done. And it was beautiful, to boot.

Oh, and "That, or Christmastown." HA! Best thing I've ever heard.
ASH turned 50 last week. But he's very well preserved. Anyway, the Ripper spin off was meant for the BBC, who I think are a little less ageist.
Great episode. And to all the Flickr chatters yesterday, now I understand the Astronauts vs. Cavemen thing. :o)
RavenU, yes, I am convinced that Alyson Hannigan will be making an appearance before the season is over. (I refuse to say "before the series is over.") I say this without spoiler knowledge. Her scenes may already have been secretly filmed, or Joss's recent trip to London to see Alyson perform might have also been a trip to talk about an Angel appearance.

Okay, I am getting a little conspiracy theory here. But I think that there is no way Angel is going to end (there, I said it!) without there being some resolution of the "none of us in the Buffy camp trust you anymore, Angel" problem. If SMG herself won't come back, then Willow making an appearance to help out Angel and to reestablish a bond is the next best thing.
I hope Josh thanks his lucky stars for the incredible talent he has and the incrediblely talented people he works with who bring his world to us. This episode was exactly what I needed with the cancellation talk and the fear of Josh not being one of the people to contribute to my viewing pleasure. No one with Josh's talent will be allowed to fade from the picture. We will have much more to look forward to from Josh Whedon.
Excellent episode, writing, pace, and delivery.
I think you mean John Swedon.
I haven't cried like that since The Body. My goodness! So many thoughts flooding my head I don't know what to do!! Soo funny and then so heart wrenching! Wes is gonna tear shiznit up next week.

Joss Whedon, my master, my tormentor
I'm just in denial over what happened last night...

Angel: (may not be the exact words) "I'm just going to say one thing,"
Wes: "You don't have to.."
Angel: "Yes I do....Winifred Burkle.."

That gave me goosebumps. No one does it better than Joss!! It was also shocking to see Wes shoot the leg of some lawyer who was bothering him with petty work stuff. That dark side just keeps popping out whenever Fred is danger, can't forget Wes shooting Robo Dad.

I also loved the quite mention of Cordy. That has always been Angel, suffer in silence. That was why I wasn't too surprised that he didn't mention Cordy sooner. For me that was more of a tribute than a random mention of her death.

There are just so many great things about this episode and a lot has been mentioned already. I hope there is a way to bring Fred back to "her boys" because they will be lost without her. I'm still in denial....

PS: Can I just say how much I hate the WB???
Wesley: You have to fight. You don't have to talk. Just concentrate on fighting. Just hold on.

Fred: I'm not scared. I'm not scared. I'm not scared. Please...Wesley...why can't I stay?
Fred's last line was brilliant.
This was a fantastic episode. Everything else has been said.

I agree with both Meredith and Protector....both lines were great. Knox's face when he said "Oops" was priceless. That's why I loved when the actor was on Buffy. Amy Acker was really wonderful last night along with Alexis Denisof. Then again, the cast is always amazing....
I loved the ep, although I was a little uneasy at being forced to worship Fred like she was the Messiah or something. She's aight, but damn, you know? There was also a little bit of the been there, done that aspect of the possessed former ally that we went through last year. That said, I fully expect ME to turn our expectations on their heads. My favorite parts were the "Oops" from Knox, the acting against himself by Gunn, Lorne talkin' REDRUM on Eve, and Spike dropping the questions on the surly chap in the pit.

i would go with a spike spinoff definately....that show would be great, but not a faith one. i didnt like her, especially when she came back in season 7 of buffy and then everybody follows her like she was everything....that was definately the worst part about that year....
Don't forget Spike's reaction to hearing Fred's dying - "Not this girl. Not this day." It reminded me of his reaction to Buffy's death in the Gift and the fact that he had been counting the days since her death when she returned.

Not to mention the metaphor for the season becoming the embodiment of Fred - the whole creating change from the inside. Cause from the perspective of the Firm - Team Angel could be seen as the parasites infesting W&H - just as the demon infested Fred.
thoroughly spoiled but thoroughly moved. Mad props to AA and AD. I can't even type out Fred's last words-too sad.

re AH appearing on Angel, she will be taking off a few weeks from the play to film her pilot in LA-March 17-April 3.
KernelM, what is this about Tim Minear's dirty joke that became a crucial plot point from the third season on?
That was the main thing I didn't like about Buffy Season 7...when everyone except for Spike turned on Buffy. I always hated the fact that she became the so-called punching bag when the chips were down.

As for the "inside out" idea...I agree. Angel and company thought they could change W&H from the inside and make it good...but obviously that isn't working. Fred is good but the "evil" killed her from the inside and came out. Does that make sense?
Where have I heard "Not this girl. Not this day" before? It feels so familiar but my memory is drawing an utter blank. It's embarrassing.
The story about Minear's joke is on the commentary for the season 3 DVD set (I guess it's for 'Billy', but I don't remember). Minear said that all the writers were brainstorming before season 3 began. Joss wanted a reason for Darla to come back to LA. Minear said that since Darla came back in a box once, something should come back in Darla's box.

So that's how one dirty joke shaped an entire season AND a universe's mythology.
Is this our longest ever thread?
There was a scene near the end of "Titanic" where Jack says something similar to Rose. I'm not sure of the exact wording though. Any ideas? I don't think it's been said in the Whedonverse before.
Minear said that since Darla came back in a box once, something should come back in Darla's box.

Meaning Connor? Connor is what came back in Darla's box, right?
Ah, right, cal. That's where I've heard it before. Thanks.
Uh, Wow! It brought out so much out of our main characters that “A Hole in the World” is rather hard to talk about without missing something big. As usual, good old Wesley kept me deeply interested. The cavemen versus astronauts joke was strangely intriguing and very true to Spike. Gunn’s situation certainly brought something fresh to the storyline. That evil Joss Whedon fellow did it again; he made us think everything was okay and then revealed that everything was not okay in the next scene!!!

Yes, there have been plenty of days where I don’t like it when people ask me lots of questions. Is it me or did Knox really want to tell everyone close to Fred what the real story is with him? Since Angel’s playing a part in whatever is about to happen, is this the apocalypse the Senior Partners have been talking about all this time? So, all our characters are going to die in the next few weeks, is that what you’re telling us? If indeed we are facing the end of the Buffyverse, I am convinced now that it is going out with a bang; I just don’t have to like it (cheesy stubborn pout).

(whimpers and tears) “When I heard that Angel was cancelled, I was having fruit punch, and I thought well Spike and Angel and those other vampires will NEVER HAVE anymore fruit punch that looks like blood EVER!!! It’s stupid. It’s mortal and stupid, and no one will explain to me WHY!?!?!?” (turns evil and all-powerful and causes computer equipment to overload)
What an outstanding episode! Incredibly touching, incredibly gripping, incredibly Joss. There is nothing I can really say that hasn't already been said (seeing as how this is the longest.thread.ever.) but I will say that this episode was near, if not wholly, perfect. Each character had truly brilliant moments and revealed their true selves. There's so much I want to say but I just can't articulate it well enough. Thoroughly impressed by the actors, the characters, the turn in the story, the addition to the mythology, and as always by Joss.
Just had a thought about Illfred/Illyria (and I'm not certain if this is considered spoilery or not, so I'll mark it just in case). What if ?

I'm sad about Fred, but man, it's exciting to see what AA is going to do with the character. Her little "this will do" was as chilling as her frosty new eye-color.
I also liked how when it came down to battle Spike took his place beside Angel without being cocky about it - throughout the season to date Spike would always seem to question why Angel was in charge and why not him - but in this case it was Spike who asked what their game plan was and followed Angel's order without question or comment about his right to order him around.

Also for those who said well this was the same thing that happened to Cordellia last season, I say this idea has always been around since Season 3 of Buffy and the Mayor to Season 5 of Buffy and the Ben/Glory thing, then you had Cordy/Jasmin, but at each point it was a different tratment that made it interesting. Even Cordy's was different cause she came back as the demon if anything Fred's situtation mirrors the story of the Mayor on Buffy only this time not by choice.
I really liked the episode a lot. It had a real epic feel to it. But now I'm really upset that we'll never see another Joss written and directed episode again. It's so depressing. My three favourite moments of the episode were the look on Lorne's face after he heard Fred sing, Spike's quiet reflection about the hole in the world, and most importantly at the end when Fred told Wes, "You won't leave me?" and he told her he'd never leave her and his voice cracked. As soon as his voice cracked it just killed me. Such a sad episode. I hope Fred's not gone for good, cause she was really starting to grow on me. Especially this season.
About repeating storylines, I read an assumption elsewhere that it could be deliberate, that it's the mindwipe thing. Something about 'He who forgets history..."

Also, this is the song Gunn sings at the start of the show: Three Little Maids from Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado. Interesting lyrics.
"YUM-YUM. From three little maids take one away"

Of course, I'm not sure who the other two maids would be.
Ditto to what the majority of the fevered, loyal fans have posted. But I must say, the one scene that litterally made me guffaw in glee was a mere 2 minutes into the episode.

Off screen you hear Angel and Spike going at it like little ol' batty bittys..... (paraphrasing here)
A: "Why'd you do THAT for?"
S: "It was going to attack you. I was watching your back."

Next scene, see Angel step out from the shadows with a sword through his chest and a demonic critter pierced by the sword on his back.

A: "Ya could've brushed it of or used a more BLUNT method!"

Tickled. Tickled. Tickled. Soon my feeling faded as the story progressed into the beautiful, angsty orchestration that is Joss.


[ edited by RTADoyle on 2007-10-27 11:31 ]
Three little maids:

* Fred (and Wesley)
* Eve (and Lindsey)
(possible casting spoiler for 5x16)


[ edited by aaronsw on 2004-02-29 07:35 ]
FWIW, the "Cavemen vs. Astronauts" thing reminded me of The West Wing's similar practice of goofy stories spreading around the office to drive dialogue (especially in the first season, which Joss says is the last show he watched). That fits, since The West Wing seems to be this season's theme.

[ edited by aaronsw on 2004-02-29 07:41 ]

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