Wow, it really seems like everyone involved is very pessimistic concerning the chances of a move...

That, in turn, does not make me very optimistic at all :(

CrazyMutha29 | February 27, 03:32 CET

Wasn't Joss equally pessimistic about Buffy being able to move a few years ago?
I'm holding on to my hope. This is gonna crush me if it doesnt get picked up.

Ghost Spike | February 27, 03:35 CET

I don't see how Joss could've been pessimistic about Buffy because UPN jumped in on their own and asked for Buffy when the WB and Fox were fighting over money and offered more money than the WB said they were willing to pay.

This time, it just doesn't sound good with so many comments coming from ME saying it's unlikely to happen and his reference to "Joss making courtesy calls" doesn't seem like they are planning on trying to really push for it. But I can't say I blame Joss Whedon. This is so soon after he went to battle with Fox and trying to get other networks to give Firefly a chance. He put so much time and energy into that but I think he came out of the whole thing totally discouraged with TV. And now he has the Firefly movie to work on. I hope the UPN still really wants the show and that Fox will be able to work out a contract agreement with them but I think if they turn it down, I don't see any other real contenders.

Firefly Flanatic | February 27, 03:45 CET

I'm not sure what I think of this article. It doesn't really tell us anything different to what we already know. If anything, I find it heartening to know that Joss is making those calls to UPN. Maybe it's the optimist in me - I refuse to give up hope until it has been officially spelled out for me that Angel won't be coming back. I think it's natural for the people who work on the show to feel less optimistic. After all, they must still be getting over the shock of it all.

cal | February 27, 03:56 CET

The article does set a pessimistic tone, but as Bell stated, they've been through this before and it's finally catching up to them. That said, I'm sure everyone STILL WANTS THE SHOW TO CONTINUE.

This cancellation is so shocking because IMO, there hasn't been a moment where it seemed as if they've run out of ideas. The TV Guide issue that featured the cast was so great because there is still the sense amongst the cast that there are still stories to tell.

I'm still soldiering on. I have the 100th Episode of Angel issue of Hollywood Reporter and it's so heartening to see the love people have for the show. We have to at least still show the WB that we don't take this cancellation kindly.

angiebear | February 27, 04:06 CET

My concern is that articles like this are going to stop people from carrying on with the campaign. I think that it's important for us to keep going with this. If Joss is having talks with UPN, surely it will help if they see that the fans still really care about this show and won't take the cancellation lying down.

cal | February 27, 04:12 CET

I agree with you Cal. What's the point of all of our fan campaigning when it seems like the people who work on the show don't have any hope for it continuing? These kind of articles are disheartening to read, but maybe they know something we don't, being on the inside and all. My hope is seriously starting to dwindle.

MindPieces | February 27, 04:24 CET

I agree with you Cal. What's the point of all of our fan campaigning when it seems like the people who work on the show don't have any hope for it continuing?

Ding ding ding. Yes. Please stop pouring money and hearts into campaigns to Save Angel. Thank the cast and crew. Wish them well. Hope they find wonderful jobs, soon.

Allyson | February 27, 04:35 CET

Wow - bitter much there Allyson.

I guess I took it in another way - of course they are not going to come right out and say help save our show they have been doing that since season 3 but I think the fact that they are still talking about shows that they want to let the fans know now more than ever to kick it up a notch. The fact that he mentioned Joss making courtsey calls to UPN to me sounds a bit more possitive then in recent weeks when it was FOX that was drawing up the proposal and Joss calling it a long shot. Then why bother now with making courtesy calls unless some progress has been made in that direction. ME is anything if not sublte in anything they do perhaps this was there way to get the news out to the fans that there is a chance they just have to focus and double there efforts in order to push UPN off the fence and into the arms of Angel.

Is anyone forgeting that ME is the best when it comes to Classic misdirection - say one thing but then 180 it. Perhaps it's my stubborn optimism but I see this article as more of a rallying point to keep the fire going not give up on it.

RavenU | February 27, 04:48 CET

Whatever is decided re: UPN I hope it's decided soon and an official announcement is made. As long as ME people say things like "long shot" in interviews rather than "not a snowball's chance in hell," fans will have some sliver of dim hope. And the campaigns will continue.

I do wish the cast and crew well and hope that they find wonderful jobs. Or better yet, stay with the ones they have at AtS, miracle willing. All their collective hard work has produced something really special and I for one will be forever grateful for their efforts.

phlebotinin | February 27, 04:53 CET

I have to admit that I haven't been watching Angel religiously this season. I've tuned in for episodes where the summary or spoilers seemed interesting to me. Anyway, I'm curious about something. Would the people who are still passionately fighting to keep the show alive been more accepting of the non-renewal had the announcement come before or in the beginning of the season? Would the fans still run campaigns for another network to pick up the show in that case? Would a 6th be enough?

Silent Night | February 27, 05:24 CET

No, Raven. I'm realistic.

It's not a rally cry. Fury was very concerned about fans sinking money into a campaign, because realistically, it's not going to be saved.

My understanding is that the fans said that if nothing else, it made them feel better to at least try, and in the very least, it's a profound way to show appreciation.

So don't presume that I'm bitter. I'm protective of the fandom, and I know that nothing I say will stop it, and so the least I could do was lend a hand and let them use my Variety account so that it would be less expensive.

Enough money was raised for two ads. I'm keeping an ear to the ground, and hopefully, in the next day or so, you'll have an official word. But right now? I'd say to please save your money. There's more than enough.

Allyson | February 27, 05:29 CET

Silent - I think that would depend on a lot of variables - if this were going to be the last season of Angel and announced before now - it would have come from Joss and crew themselves not the WB. Why keep a series on for one year if you already annouced it would be it's last. If that was the case then I think the fans would have been disappointed but they would have accepted it in time and enjoyed this season. However this is not the case and had Joss not ask we probably wouldn't have heard any news until May regarding it's future and then it would have been to late to save it. The fact that the WB at least gave us enough warning allows us monthes of directed effort - perhaps they did this for a reason - perhaps Levin is being the bad guy cause he has to be but deep down he wants the show to go on, even if it means to another network. So I may not like Mr. Levin for his foolish actions but I can see his motives and I am grateful that it did give ME and crew and fans such advance notice so we can work towards getting it picked up somewhere else. Afterall he is the figure head for the WB and it's his job to take the credit and the blame for the network.

RavenU | February 27, 05:38 CET

Allyson - we are talking Hollywood here - realism never enters into the equation. Realisticly - nothing can be saved unless you try to save it, right now is pilot season - so until I hear of actors and writers jumping ship I for one will still hold out hope and it's my money if I want to throw it away on a cause you think is lost then it's my right cause it is my cause to believe in it. As for giving up - I have been the one from the beginning of this season sounding it bell of demise and have been working at getting others to fight to save it the best I could. I'm glad your helping in the cause and I'm sorry that Fury thinks it for not - but the best thing about history if you learn from it is some time the underdog does win along as you still believe in it. Over the course of television history many shows have been saved by the fans so not really buying the realist part there either. Case in point a show on NBC called St Elsewhere back in the 80's was canceled around it's 4 or 5th season and because of the fan support and write in campaign for the show - NBC changed it's mind and brought the series back and it finally finished it's run after 6 years - so it has happened before and it can happen again as long as the ME crew are still working and the season is not over.

RavenU | February 27, 05:59 CET

RavenU. Perhaps throw your money into a donation to a charity in the name of your favorite actor or writer. Then at least, you wouldn't really be throwing it away.

But at this point, I think if Joss came to your home, took both your hands in his, and said, "it's over," you still wouldn't believe.

Allyson | February 27, 06:11 CET

Being the pesimist I am at heart - which is in constant battle with my inner optimist - if Joss said it's over - then fine. I would accept it's over but those words have not left his lips and made the airwaves yet - so until then - I'll keep fighting cause if we don't all we will be left with is the crap that is flooding the air waves now.

Unless of course you want to see the surreal life on every night of the week with highschool reunion - or remakes of classic shows (that are classsic because they are no longer on). Speaking of which the WB just picked up a sitcom they are calling the new Laverne and Shirley - do you want to see that. As audience and fans of intelligent engaging entertainment we have to take a stand sooner or later and this is the perfect opportunity to let Hollywood know that when it is all said and done - we have final say they don't. As a society we are apathetic and will take what we are given because we don't care about it, we have let hollywood run on it's own for too long and look what we have to show for it. A vast wasteland of shows no one is even caring enough to watch but if you don't think people will fight when by some chance they do care. Ask CBS how much people care - a few seconds in a super bowl and we have bills flying through congress at lightening speed - Howard Stern being dropped by 6 Viacom owned stations - another DJ getting fired - shows being monitored carefully. We the people still have the power in Hollywood but it is up to us to use it or lose it and I for one am tired of having nothing to watch - I end up watch BBCAmerica than I do any US network. I was a former TV junkie from way back - I could tell you every thing that was on for the week but now outside of Angel and a few other shows there is nothing that holds my interest - so yes I will fight - if Joss says it's over for Angel than fine I except that but I no longer have to accept my treatment by the network broadcasting community as a number and not a person with a compentant understanding of the big picture - with or without Angel in it.

RavenU | February 27, 06:31 CET

The fact is, in a culture where Janet Jackson's breast causes Clear Channel to panic and give Howard Stern a hard time after a decade of talking about lesbians during drive time, let's face it: Joss' stories offend easily offendable people. Angel's not about shining knights on white horses. The real Powers That Be aren't going to support an artist who, be it accidental or on purpose, was hitting too close to home and cutting too close to the bone.

I'm not saying this is a conspiracy, unless McCarthyism was a conspiracy. The present cultural environment discourages double plus ungood speak. The masses allegedly want stories where the troubles are 'real' and can be dealt with easily within an hour minus commercials. If the masses really don't want that, then certain somebodies out there seem hell bent to make us want it. It's why Charmed stays and Angel goes. Charmed is sweet and cute and pretty and safe. Angel is dark and ugly and harsh and they take risks. I'm not saying I like it. I'm not saying you should have to like it. I'm saying that's the way it is.

I'm with Alyson. Thank the cast and crew. Wish them well. We got a lot of stories. Whedon's run was longer than many director writers get. He's not done. He'll just have to shift gears. BuffyVerse might be over. We should be willing to accept that. We should be willing to show respect to these wonderful, talented people who put out blood, sweat, and tears for the sole purpose of entertaining us. We should let them go with dignity and grace.

Cave man wins.

ZachsMind | February 27, 07:09 CET

Amen to everything RavenU said! I couldn't have put it better myself. As for the theory that Angel is being cancelled because it's too dark and harsh...I wouldn't exactly say that. I think that may be why it'll never be as popular as Charmed, but I think Angel's cancellation is due to ratings and not content. Granted, the dark content probably effects the ratings, since "most people" are uncomfortable with the bleak and very REAL world that Joss likes to paint in his shows.

I hate the fact that I live in a country that makes such a big deal over something as ridiculously unimportant as a five second glimpse of a breast. And I hate that I live in a country where the citizens swallow whatever crappy programming is handed to them, then they ask for more of the same until all of the airwaves are clogged and polluted. Things need to change, and we're going to have to change them one person at a time.

MindPieces | February 27, 09:18 CET

Why would Joss say to stop a campaign, when he never asked that you START one? Has he ever said to stop a campaign? I mean, I've worked on most campaigns. Joss doesn't say anything, except that one time he thanked the fans for Stand Up for Buffy. Oh, and there was the song he wrote for the toaster.

But the two executive producers, Fury and Bell, both have said that they don't expect a pick up.

And so if Joss goes to his grave, never having said "stop," when will you stop? Ever?

Please. For those of you who are considering plunking your hard earned cash into a campaign to save the show, keep your wallet in your pocket.

Allyson | February 27, 09:37 CET

I hear what Allyson is saying. Part of me rebels at that pragmatism, but another part, which is increasingly noisy and insistent, feels the fight is moving into its end-game. The WB won't budge; they may or may not run future movies, as they deem fit, but they will not reverse their decision on 'Angel'. I wish I believed that they would, but I think Jordan Levin sees himself as the kind of CEO that doesn't bend. He isn't moved by the pleas of fans, and if he is, he would consider it unprofessional, or a sign of weakness, to allow that to influence the dictates of business. It seems they're letting the fandom wear itself out. Biding their time. They have the 'power' (small and shriveled as it is) and they know it. Time, for the moment, is on their side.

My gut sense in the last week has been that Joss, the cast and crew have been honestly blown away and overwhelmed by the response of fans to the cancellation news. They can't fail to know, by now, how much the fandom loves and esteems their efforts, and how passionately we've come to care for these incredibly conceived, written and acted characters they've been toiling to bring to life for the past 4 (and in a couple of cases, more) years. They understand our grief and pain at this terrible loss because they're feeling it, too. But they're all creative people, and the way they will deal with their pain is to plunge into something else creative.

If they can see it from an externalized fan perspective, and I have no doubt that most of those involved can, it's likely they don't look at this outpouring of money and words as madness so much as a manifestation of frustrated love that is expressing itself through the only outlet it has. (Without the internet, we wouldn't have the means to coordinate our efforts the way we have, or even share our grief. I'm thankful for that.) It has been, and is, a remarkable effort that's united together many disparate fan factions (some at war with one another for years), forming a maelstorm in which Joss and Co. have become the invisible center. I think, at this point, people would even give money to Joss himself (were he to show the slightest inclination towards taking it) if they thought it would make saving 'Angel' more possible -- the very idea of which probably scares him to death.

If I may posit so boldly, I think Joss hasn't spoken definitively yet because he's hesitant to administer the death blow. In his own heart he may be still nurturing a tiny flame of hope that something will change. He has to know that the word should come from him, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's agonizing over how much longer he should wait. I feel so awful for him, and for everyone involved, but mostly for us out here. It's agony, this waiting and not knowing, and I almost want him to deliver us all.

"Lie to us", some would say, as Buffy did to Giles. Tell us a pretty, comforting story. But Joss will tell us the truth, in his own way, when it's time. I want to believe that the cavalry will come over the hill, save the day, and all will be well -- but if it does, then it's only for another year. Then the fight begins anew. Does he have it in him to go through this yet again? Do we? Or should we just love what we've had, keep loving what we've got until it's over, thank them, and then let it go?

I don't know the answer. I'm sitting here crying, once again, because it's hard admitting to myself there's a better than very good chance the work we've all been doing these past few weeks won't bring 'Angel' back. But what it has done is show the people who made 'Angel' that we care, and that's not nothing. I'm sending Joss light and hoping that when he feels the time is right, he'll say what needs to be said. 'Angel' is his creation, and it's his call to make.

I'm loathe to let the Buffy/Angelverse go. My sole comfort is grounded in the reality that the stories will live on in Joss, and in the hearts and minds of everyone 'Angel' has touched. Angel himself won't get any deader than he already is, unless Joss decides so (in which case I reserve the right to hunt him down and --). I joke, but maybe he'll feel like sharing more of the Buffy/Angelverse with us someday (movies? mini-series on DVD? who knows?). Especially now that he knows for sure we're all really paying attention. When one door closes....

I want to believe. I hope. But even as I keep writing postcards, I also want to move on. One way or another, there has to be a sign. I'm watching the skies, listening to the wires. Waiting.

Wiseblood | February 27, 09:39 CET

"For those of you who are considering plunking your hard earned cash into a campaign to save the show, keep your wallet in your pocket."

But...what if I love and wanna support Variety as much as Angel? Two birds with one stone, right? :P

Kris | February 27, 12:00 CET

Look, guys it's all fairly simple. We don't know. We don't know what's going on behind closed doors and what people are thinking or the reasons for what they're saying or doing....or not saying or doing.

It's not up to Joss to ask for fan campaigns. It looks weak, business wise, and if they're still trying, and fan response does make a difference, it's probably more effective if it's spontaneous anyway.

The WB is not continuing with Angel. This we know. ME is talking to UPN but the chances are not good. This we know too. In the past strange and unpredictable things have happened in TV land so some of us still harbor a slim hope.

And RavenU is right, it's a very bleak TV landscape out there lately and not looking to improve much. So if some of us want to fight for a show that means much to us, then we'll do that.

And if it's all in vain, which is likely, I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, and maybe some people feel better knowing they gave it their best shot and who knows, it may even help with a possible future spin-off, when they remember the strong fan base for the Joss-verse. And at the VERY least, we showed ME and Joss and the crew that we cared and appreciated their work.

I have faxed, written, mailed and voted and signed everywhere I could find or think of. I haven't donated money, but if other (adult) people choose to do that with their own cash, then quite frankly, that is their choice and I don't see what's wrong with it.

EdDantes | February 27, 12:46 CET

Well said, EdDantes! When I said that I was concerned that articles like this would affect the campaign, the reaction of some people on here was what I was talking about. I believe that we should continue to fight until we have a definitive answer, one way or the other. I understand what Allyson is trying to say but I don't agree with it, and I don't think that her attitude is helping our cause at all.

We know that Angel being picked up is a longshot, but while there is a glimmer of hope, no matter how small, then I, for one, will continue to hope and campaign.

cal | February 27, 16:29 CET

There's no glimmer.

Allyson | February 27, 18:41 CET

Allyson -- what is your connection to the AtS insiders? I'm a relative newbie when it comes to behind the scenes Whedonverse stuff (not to mention the world of 'net fandom) so please forgive my ignorance. I've definitely picked up real respect for your posts from various and sundry here at Whedonesque, but beyond that I know nothing.

As for there being "no glimmer" -- I hope that someone makes an official statement SOON. The problem with fans perceiving a "glimmer" is that aside from Fury's remarks at the Revue, nobody official has 100% ruled out Angel continuing at some other network. As long as UPN hasn't said definitively that they've turned down a Fox proposal, then the more ardent fans will continue working their tails off campaigning. Official word is needed.

phlebotinin | February 27, 19:20 CET

Well, this post is so far down probably nobody will read it, but I am sick and tired of all the negativity. Whoever is propagating it is certainly making headway because I've been to several other sites today and it's spreading like a disease. Whether we succeed or not, what I do with my money is nobody else's business, and even if we fail I will feel that it was given to a good cause. As RavenU said I'll keep fighting cause if we don't all we will be left with is the crap that is flooding the air waves now.

[ edited by Simon on 2004-02-27 19:53 ]

spikeangellover | February 27, 20:50 CET

Allyson, you say "There's no glimmer".

How do you know? With all due respect, if you know something that the rest of us don't, then please share it with us. I agree, enough money has been raised for the ads now, so people should stop sending money. But as for the rest of the campaign, I say go for it. This attitude seems like sabotage to me. I'm new here and I don't want to upset anyone, but it seems that you don't mind upsetting us. Please be honest with us. Are you part of the production team, part of ME, or what? If you have inside information then come out and say it. That is the only fair thing to do. Until then, I'm going to hold on to my glimmer of hope. I know that it is probably futile, but at least I can say I tried.

[ edited by cal on 2004-02-27 19:23 ]

cal | February 27, 21:22 CET

I have my doubts that someone will pick up the show but that didn't stop me from sending letters and signing petitions. I figure it isn't going to hurt me to do those things and hopefully with everyone else doing it, Angel will be picked up by another network. That doesn't stop me from thinking that it might not happen, especially with some of the comments coming from ME. But they may not want to be getting their hopes up either and that's why they are downplaying any chances.

Firefly Flanatic | February 27, 21:50 CET

Why is my last post all in italics?

Firefly Flanatic | February 27, 21:50 CET

I wondered the same about mine! Lol

cal | February 27, 21:53 CET

ITA with you blwessels

cal | February 27, 21:54 CET

All fixed. Allyson runs David Fury's fansite and organised the Wolfram and Hart Revue, if there is one fan who knows what is going on it would be her. If she feels that there is no hope of the show getting picked up, then there is no hope of the show picked up.

Simon | February 27, 21:58 CET

So does that mean that you have given up then, Simon?

cal | February 27, 22:03 CET

Well, then I guess we're sunk, aren't we, and we should just stop trying (sarcasm meant). Party poopers. You know there are residual effects of continuing the effort whether we win or not (like possible new series etc). In the words of "Galaxy Quest". "never give up, never surrender". I am ashamed of all of you who are, no matter what you know, until final word is given.

spikeangellover | February 27, 22:22 CET

"I am ashamed of all of you who are..."

Oh, please, spare us the drama. Some people have other opinions or attitudes than your own, there really is no need to be 'ashamed'. It's not a sin, you know.

Caroline | February 27, 22:46 CET

Thanks for the heads up on who Allyson is, Simon. Kudos to Allyson for all her hard work on the Fury fansite and for organizing the Revue, which sounds like it was a smashing success. You have convinced me that she knows better than most (if not all) fans about what's going on and because I've been pessimistic all along, I am assuming that she's right.

But really, until Fox/UPN make an offiical announcement, I see no reason why people shouldn't keep up the good fight. I appreciate and respect all the campaigners' efforts as a true labor of love and do believe, as has been pointed out, that the campaigns may play into future spin-offs and/or movies.

phlebotinin | February 27, 22:53 CET

phlebotinin, "the good fight" has been the fan community's finest hour. I hope the final word on Angel on whatever happens to it will be soon.

And I think you are right about the campaigns affecting future spin-offs and movies. There is still massive interest from fans and critics for future Buffyverse material.

Simon | February 27, 23:04 CET

For prolific: No, it's not a sin, in the literal sense, but if you only think of the literal interpretation of things I wonder why you would be a fan of the Whedonverse? And yes, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but "in my opinion" the negativity is hurting the cause (whether doomed or not) and to me that is something to give a sermon about. Sorry if you don't feel the same. I, myself, plan to wait until I have official word that it won't be picked up. I can also understand the depression the people close to the show feel, it's only been two weeks today that the announcement was made and I'd be depressed too. I have to hope that since almost all of the quotes I've heard talk about a "long shot" that there is still some hope no matter how slim. Why would you want to take that away from us? That is the net effect of the negative opinions if everyone believes them. So that said, I'm done preaching. Sorry if any of it offended you "party poopers" (no offense intended).

[ edited by spikeangellover on 2004-02-27 21:30 ]

spikeangellover | February 27, 23:12 CET

Re Simons comment:

And I think you are right about the campaigns affecting future spin-offs and movies. There is still massive interest from fans and critics for future Buffyverse material.

More Fray please.

redfern | February 27, 23:18 CET

"Sorry if you don't feel the same."

Spikeangellover, I haven't said anything about how I felt personally. I'm addressing you because I think you are out of line calling other posters here 'negative' and throwing around words like 'ashamed' and 'party poopers'. It's just completely over the top. We're talking television here, this isn't the culture wars. I don't mind if you want to call the WB names on this site, within reasonable limits, but don't take your frustration out on other posters, please.

Caroline | February 27, 23:51 CET

My sincere apologies, prolific. Apparently it did offend you and that was not my intent. I guess our definition of calling names is different; I thought that the term "party poopers" was a lighthearted jab. Apparently, I was wrong, so once again my apologies. I am just trying to rally the troops.

spikeangellover | February 28, 01:13 CET

I can't give up hope. That would be like virtual suicide. I have to believe that the age of quality entertainment isn't quite over. I don't think I ever could've gotten through middle school or high school without BtVS, and I almost feel indebted to Joss Whedon for giving us eight years, but I think I need one more. Sure, there will be "Serenity" and "Astonishing X-Men" and possibly "Ripper," but none of those will be a weekly dependable thing. I know there isn't a lot of hope. But there still *IS* hope. So I will keep hoping until it's definitely over.

Invisible Green | February 28, 01:21 CET

Wouldn't it be great if life immitated art?
Angel beats the odds at the last minute. There is still hope.
If our efforts tank there's plenty of time for misery sharing.
As in anything else in life, you have to believe you can succeed
or you won't (yes I know you can still lose even if you pictured
winning) All I'm saying is let's not defeat ourselves. We don't
stand a chance if we take an "all is probably lost" attitude.
(Be kind-my first post)

rustyroxie | February 28, 02:25 CET

I think there's a world of difference between negative and being realistic.

And I am greatly offended of the accustation of "negativity" and think it's just a way to put me down and ignore what I'm saying.

Do you know me? Do you know how hard I fought for Firefly, and the amount of time I've clocked on supporting Whedon's work over the years?

When Firefly had no hope left of being picked up, we STOPPED collecting money. We stopped campaigning. And that campaign ate Two months of my life.

Up until 2AM, every lunch hour, all of my spending money, and spending weekends in an office doing mailings and meetings.

It's greatly offensive to me, personally, to be told that my words are spreading like a disease.

It must be terribly easy to say that from where you're sitting. People I genuinely love, who have been extraordinarily kind to me, have lost their jobs. Anytime I have ever called upon the show for an interview, something for the fans, anything, it's always been given freely, without question. And I'm just a fan. And I say that often, but apparently, that doesn't spread like a disease.

The crew lost their jobs. People who have been there since day one lost their jobs. You're sad that you lost entertainment. I'm sad that a crew who have become family to each other have to go look for work.

Don't dare to question my intentions, or compare what I have to say to a disease. Don't think for one second that I take this lightly. If there was anything that could make it better, I'd be out there screaming the loudest.

My sense of loss is huge. It's more than you'll ever know. A party pooper? This is a party? Is this fun? It's not fun.

My first question when I got the call that they didn't get renewed was, "Is there anything fans can do?"

So, if by some miracle the WB changes its mind, I have a $200 bottle of champagne to pop. But don't think it'll be anything but a miracle.

SABOTAGE???? WTF?!?!

Allyson | February 28, 02:26 CET

Allyson,

As a Whedon/ME fan, I would like to extend to you my extreme gratitude for all the blood, sweat and tears that you've poured into Firefly and Angel. I agree that you of all people should not be accused of spreading negativity like a disease. I am also glad that you've reminded us that the extra-talented Angel cast and crew are actually losing their jobs -- losing Angel sn't just a matter of losing entertainment on Wednesday nights (as amazing as that entertainment is). How right you are.

Thank you so much. You have big supporters out here!

phlebotinin | February 28, 02:49 CET

what phlebotinin said. I'm drunk and I'm upset, and it's one of the few times I feel like crying after reading a post.

Simon | February 28, 02:56 CET

Allyson, I understand you're angry at the choice of words of some posters, but I don't think they meant it all that bad or harsh. The thing is people DIDN'T know you or who you are or what contacts you have. How could they know? We can only go by what is written and the fact that you have closer knowledge than most of us would have been helpful in the beginning of all this. Just like some people asked of you, but you never answered. If we knew your track record, few would have accused you of any of those things, but you sure didn't sound like you had a history like that. And few of us are psychic.

You of all people should understand this is close to a lot of people's hearts, and that many of them are fighting for the show and as I said earlier at the very least, even though it's probably all useless, it shows our appreciation to everyone at ME.

You said that they were wasting their time. Seeing your own experiences I suppose you felt negatively after your own efforts were in vain and want to warn people, but I understand that some got a certain impression since your own choice of words had a teensy bit of a 'you're all stupid' tone to it.

Not what you meant I'm sure, and certainly not what you wrote, but I think it's obvious I'm not the only one who got that vibe. I apologize for getting that wrong like others (though I'd like to make it clear I never called you any of those things), but it's hard to hear tone when just reading text, as is often risky with message boards.

Anyway, people got a little sensitive and words like 'desease' or 'sabotage' were indeed uncalled for. But I also don't understand why you don't understand the 'hopers' a little better nor why it is so important to you that everyone cease their acticvities. We're all adults and if people feel it's something they wanna do, let them.

I am inclined to agree that it's probably over but I feel there's nothing wrong with 'raging against the dying of the light'.

EdDantes | February 28, 02:56 CET

Apparently I'm going to be apologizing all night, and I will if I have to, so I'm sorry. But if you think that "not a glimmer" isn't negative than I don't know what is. I guess we have a different dictionary.

Anyway, I really and truly am sorry for your pain. And no, I didn't mean it was a party, it was just an expression. I am not questioning your intentions, I was only trying to express what effect they might have on others who are still hoping. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone over this. Take more shots at me if you want to, if you really took it like you did, then I deserve it. I was wrong. I accept the fact that my communication skills may not be the best.

spikeangellover | February 28, 02:57 CET

I don't think anyone is breaking their banks over Angel. If they are, that's the point where I go, "It IS just a tv show." But seeing that other fan campaigns have worked in the past, I'd say what's the harm? Wouldn't you rather have done something that failed than do nothing and wondered if your efforts might have succeeded? I think to just lie down and take the cancellation without so much as a whimper just shows the networks that no one really cared about the show, and that they were justified in getting rid of it.
And I figure if the campaigns don't work, the money spent is just money that the fans would have spent on dvd box sets or merchandise if the series had continued.
But Joss fans aren't the type to just roll over and take defeat. We don't give up fighting even when people say there's no hope. Haven't we learned ANYthing from Joss' stories? Keep fighting to the end, even in the face of overwhelming odds. And I don't care how corny that sounds.

Rogue Slayer | February 28, 02:59 CET

This is one of my first posts, but this discussion seems important and I hope I don't step on any toes. Allyson--wether you meant it to be or not, and I'm sure you didn't, telling people not to "waste their money" is pretty negative, as well as saying there's not a glimmer of hope. It gave me the sense, when I read it, that you were contemptuos of fans efforts, and wether there is hope or not, the campaign for Angel should be respected for what it is, an outpouring of love for this narrative and a admirable willingness to fight for something creatively worthwhile. Even if there is no hope, and until official word comes that no one will pick it up, there still will be hope, the fan campaign has great value. It will show the creators, crew and actors of Angel how very much their work has meant to us, it will also show to future employers of these fine artists how much cultural impact the groundbreaking work of the Angel cast and crew has had. The campaign is getting press, it's making waves, even if Angel does not get picked up, it is vitally important for fans to show, loudly, how much they care.And your work for Firefly, deeply appreciated, by everyone here, I'm sure, wasn't for nothing. I am quite sure that the enormous fan support was a factor in getting the movie going. Just as I am sure that the huge surge of support for Angel will have an effect on future projects.

demonica | February 28, 03:56 CET

I totally agree with you, Rogue Slayer.

Allyson, I certainly didn't mean to offend you with my comments. When I said it seemed like sabotage that wasn't meant as a personal attack on you, and I apologise if you took it that way. That is just how you made me feel. Like all our efforts were in vain. Like we were idiots for even trying. I'm not some school girl, I am a grown woman and this show means a lot to me, too. Just because I haven't got inside information doesn't mean that my opinion is any less important than your's.

Again, I apologise if I caused offence, but you need to respect my opinion in return. I know that Angel is highly unlikely to be saved, but when you reply to my post with just a curt "There's not a glimmer", then I take umbrage at that. I had no idea who you were, which is why I asked. Don't treat me like an idiot just because I don't work on David Fury's fan site or organise events.

I think feelings are running high and we are lashing out at each other because of that. I don't want to upset anyone on here. I am just stating my opinion. Surely I am entitled to that. I care that the staff and crew have lost their jobs. Do you think that we fans don't care, that it's only about Angel as a show? We care as much as anyone else. Thank you.

cal | February 28, 04:15 CET

Ed Dantes: I don't feel particularly comfortable posting my resume before every post. It's crass.

demonica: See, that's all well and good. But has nothing in particular at all to do with what I'm saying. Like, at all. It's a different argument, entirely.

If one thinks that they're going to "save" angel, as these campaigns are called, well, you're not. If one wants to "whow appreciation" for the work, well, you are. And that's fine. But these campaigns are not called "Appreciate Angel."

They're called, "Save Angel."

Now, I know the women running SavingAngel, and they're dee[ly caring individuals who will EXACTLY what they say they will do, take out a couple of ads and donate the rest to charity. And because I know and trust and love them, my account with Variety is at their disposal, and they know I'm more than happy to negotiate the rates and placement. I believe that the cast and crew will appreciate the love and hard work and generosity involved. I know they will.

MY CONCERN is that there is enough money raised right now for three full page ads. My concern is that people will pitch in money believing that their dollars will save the show. If they're putting in money to SHOW THEIR APPRECIATION, that's completely different. Again. Campaign not called "Appreciate Angel."

There's also this SaveAngel.org business that is making my skin crawl. Please don't give to a campaign asking for money for SERVER SPACE. Sheesh. Donate your server to the campaign. It's $100 bucks for a year for crying out loud.

Also, don't give money to unknown variables. Does anyone know these guys?

Sorry, took a left at Albequerque.

As for the Firefly campaign, well, the show was fighting like hell. They pitched everywhere. We collected the money needed for an ad and addressed it to the advertisers. The DVDs were a given. The movie? We'll take a helping of blame.

There was one campaign, it ran 'round the clock, and there was hope. Once there was NO HOPE we stopped. We didnt take another cent. We said to halt the postcards. When fans wanted to keep supporting the show, we directed them to charity projects that kept the name in the press.

When the DVDs came out, the fans donated DVDs to public libraries and raised 7K to send DVDs out to the Navy carriers and USOs.

I support those efforts. They're clear about what it is that they're doing. It's not about "saving" it's about supporting and honoring.

I've not said that work was for nothing. I'm proud of the Firefly fandom, and honored that they trusted us.

I am sometimes contemptuous toward fan efforts, when they're directed at changing a plot or, in the case of a recent campaign, to "issue a public apology to Charisma Carpenter and hire her back for whatever sum she asks."

I'm not contemptuous of the campaign to save Angel. I understand the need to do something, to try. What I am trying to get across is that the campaign, realistically, is not going to save Angel. Roswell, Le Femme Nikita, and even Farscape were all different situations, on different networks with different situations.

I see people arguing, "fan campaigns can work, look at Roswell!"

And I look behind me to see who people are talking to. Yes, there are fan campaigns that work. Nowhere did I say that fan campaigns don't work, and haven't worked. I am saying that in this particular situation, the fan campaign will not work to save Angel.

If the campaign switched gears with the purpose to honor angel, I'm all for it.

cal, no one treated you like you're an idiot. You're being hyperbolic.

Allyson | February 28, 04:48 CET

Allyson, I can't help but notice the vehemence and confidence with which you say Angel is a goner. I'm sure you'll understand if, despite your 'connections', people don't take your word as gospel. Like others have said, I won't accept that it's completely gone until Fox's proposal to UPN completely fails. And since the UPN hasn't said anything one way or the other, it tells me there is still a chance, as slight as it may be. Then I will believe there is NO HOPE for a season 6. Not because someone on a forum says so, but because official avenues say so.

Rogue Slayer | February 28, 05:00 CET

ITA Rogue Slayer.

Allyson, I find you totally disrespectful. I don't care who you think you are, your opinion is not the only one that matters. Angel probably is over, but not because you say so. I am sure we will get an official announcement soon. Then I will believe that all hope is gone.

cal | February 28, 05:18 CET

cal. Again with the hyperbole.

Allyson | February 28, 05:23 CET

yikes people stop fighting please, i think everyone is entitled to their opinion. i, for my part, also think Angels future is indeed very grim ... but maybe we´ll get the eight world wonder and a new season. Who knows? But whatever happens i dont think its needed to start a fight over this.

Kessie | February 28, 05:28 CET

As I said - disrespectful.

I am entitled to my own opinion.

cal | February 28, 05:34 CET

No one asked for your 'resume' Allyson. But people were asking if you knew something more, since you acted like you did. Simply saying that you did, and that you know some people is hardly 'giving your resume' is it?

And no the campaign is not called 'Appreciate Angel' and I don't believe I ever said it was called that. What I actually said was that a "Save Angel" campaign SHOWS appreciation. And it shows it more to the networks than "appreciate Angel" since the desire to save it stronger implies devotion than just appreciating it after it is over.

Another point that I have repeated twice and you have ignored both times is that we're all adults and we can decide for ourselves how we want to spend our time and yes, even our money. Thank you. Any friendliness that might be the motivation in your warning is pretty much negated by the condescending tone of your posts that (once again) implies we're all stupid.

If it was already 100% over Joss and UPN would have said so. People still have hope (99%?) because they haven't yet. Yes, I pretty much expect them to announce that any day now. Like many others, I'll feel better knowing I gave it my best shot, and that feeling is worth it.

Angel is most likely over in spite of anyone's effort. We got it. You're not telling anyone anything we don't already know. We do what we want to anyway, in spite of the fact we don't seem to have your blessing. I'm sorry that seems to upset you a bit.

EdDantes | February 28, 05:40 CET

You know, I don't come here to fight. I come here because I love and respect the work of Joss Whedon and I want to support a show I love. I don't expect to be ridiculed. I've enough crap going on in my own life without having to put up with it here. I come here to escape that. I am really, really upset now.

cal | February 28, 05:44 CET

No, cal. It's not disrepect. I've been accused of sabotage, as well as being contemptuous, negative, and bitter. And I've not resorted to name calling, not once, while defending myself.

So, really, where can you possibly get off calling me disrespectful, when my main point through all of this has been concern for the fans' pocketbooks?

And yours has been to denigrate me at every turn.

Yes, you're titled to your opinion. I think that where you are confused is that you seem to think it's a valid one, while treating me as if mine is not.

Ed Dantes, I don't believe that anyone ever needs my blessing. Fandom would be what it is if I were never born, and I'm very aware of that. I sounded short because I don't want anyone to think that because I run a little fansite or threw a party that I'm bragging or anything. That's all. I didn't want it to appear as though I think I'm the Queen of Fandom. I don't.

Allyson | February 28, 05:51 CET

An official announcement from UPN can't come soon enough, can it?

I don't think Allyson has been disrespectful. I think some unfortunate words were used originally to describe her posts and she has been reacting to that. And things have escalated from there, as they do. The bottom line is that we are all huge fans of Angel, right? We just have differing opinions, differing levels of fandom experience, and differing levels of information on the chances of the show's being picked up elsewhere.

I personally respect and applaud people who are busting their butts right now to "save" Angel, whether or not their efforts prove to be useless in terms of actually saving the show. To those folks I say, "right on!" And "thank you." But I also respect Allyson's long history of hard work on behalf of shows I have loved (including Angel) and really think her opinion, based as it is on significant experience and insider knowledge, is crucial. Allyson has not said anything here that David Fury hasn't said first. He didn't pull any punches, either. Alas.

One thing that strikes me is that the Revue, which Allyson organized, was just a week ago. I can only imagine how much hard work went into that and think it'd be nice to give the organizers a chance to decompress before engaging in word battles over the horrible, horrible decision by the WB.

Because, really, it's all the damn WB's fault. Let's not forget that.

phlebotinin | February 28, 06:06 CET

How dare you say that I am confused! I have never said that your opinion is not a valid one, it's you that treats me as if mine is not.

I've had enough of this now. And I'm sorry, but I think that you are being disrespectful to me. I said that my intention was not to offend you, but you have ignored that. I respect your opinion, the least you could do is respect mine.

I'm not prepared to keep going back and forth over this. Angel is more than likely over any way. Yes, you are probably right, but that doesn't mean that I can't hope you are wrong. I also agreed with you in my earlier post that enough money had been raised and that people should stop sending money in, but you chose to ignore that, too.

[ edited by cal on 2004-02-28 04:29 ]

cal | February 28, 06:08 CET

Thank you, phlebotinin. I'm pretty well decompressed from the Revue, and should be noted that the women running the campaign? I love them. Me and Margot go way back. And I'm here for them, and they know that.

And I agree. An announcement can't come soon enough. I think by Tuesday at the latest.

cal, it's just not about you. Have the last word, if you like.

Allyson | February 28, 06:18 CET

Ladies and gentlemen, fighting amongst ourselves is rather pointless. We should focus on finding some public way to truly thank the men and women who brought so much joy and sorrow to us in such an unique and delightful form. Rather than try to find some way to convince somebody to keep them telling stories to us, we should just thank them for the well over two hundred hours of gifts they have already given us.

ZachsMind | February 28, 06:54 CET

Look what happens when this site's admins go to bed on the other side of your world.

When I ask one poster not to go over the top, that doesn't mean others can ignore that advice.

People, calm down. It's a Saturday morning and there are pretty snowflakes coming down from the sky. Well, at least there are here where I am sitting. Go forth and enjoy your day, wherever it is.

This discussion is closed. I can't close it technically - but I implore you not to carry on like this. OK?

Caroline | February 28, 13:19 CET

okay I have to throw in my 2 cents.

As long as I havent heard anything from ME like IT IS REALLY OVER AND WE LOST I wont stop fighting.

I agree with Allyson on the fact that you shouldnt throw your hard earned money out of the window.... but I also have to say that you have to think about it that we are soo many fans out there and if you only give 1$ there is soon much together. I have to say that I donated money for the ads... but i also organized the Chocolate for Angel thing so that we show our support to the Angel Cast and Crew.

I personal was able to speak witn Fury at Friday 13th and he asked me to post a msg at the Bronze Beta saying that they are really happy for all the Love and Support they get. I saw how damn down the cast and crew was. I wont give up the hope of another season of Angel since the networks seems to be already nerve wrecked from all the postcards they get. Networks that kinda belong to WB tell us to keep our campaigns going. The Media is amazed by the fanefforts. I personal think there is still a glimmer of hope.

Allyson maybe you are realistic but maybe there is a wonder that will happen. When i learned one thing in my whole Life it was to never say never.

I dont think we guys should fight with each other. If you are pissed off use that against the networks. Write postcards (which wont hurt anyone) and if you feel better if you donate money then go to www.whatwouldbuffydo.com and donate money. All the money we are now getting will go to Charity and that in the name of the cast and crew of Angel. But you only have one day left!

Like DeKnight would say: Stop fighting and luv each other! ;)


xoxo Princess of Darkness

Princessofdarkness | March 01, 02:00 CET