May 29 2013
(SPOILER)
Discuss Angel & Faith #22.
It's the second part of the "What You Want, Not What You Need" arc.
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cheryl | May 29, 06:53 CET
I'm looking forward to seeing how this all wraps up.
Xander | May 29, 07:09 CET
I found this a really enjoyable issue in what has been a generally strong quality series.
mgmn | May 29, 07:27 CET
angevil | May 29, 07:28 CET
Mr.Savath_Bunny | May 29, 07:28 CET
deborahmm | May 29, 09:28 CET
mark214 | May 29, 09:59 CET
The thing with which I am most relieved is that they made him young enough to, at least mostly, thwart the ambitions of any nascent Faith/Giles or Buffy/Giles 'shippers there. Plus, many very believably Jossian jokes (because I remember "Spin the Bottle", subtlety is for little men spring blades) about newly hormobally in balanced Giles reacting to Faith's... Faithness in spite of himself.
I am pretty on the fence about this issue. The central plot development connects back to every point ever made about whether Angel's actions in Season 8 have untangled themselves too easily with regard to moral and social consequences.
Would be curious if Re-Giles has heard of anyone by the name of Dawn, as well.
KingofCretins | May 29, 10:55 CET
DaddyCatALSO | May 29, 11:35 CET
And the rules can still be the same. It's not like nobody ever came back from the dead in the TV shows. Buffy did, Angel did, Spike did.
darling | May 29, 12:00 CET
Also noted the brief mention of the Deeper Well - if the Buffy and Angel & Faith seasons are running side by side (which Alasdair's reference to a flare of energy at the well suggests) then Buffy is closer than they think.
Liked Faith's riposte of "Never figured I'd last this long" to Angel's "I should have died three centuries ago".
For some reason found the placement of the advertisement in the middle page a bit irritating.
Night On My Side | May 29, 12:02 CET
I'm willing to let the story play out. But I do want actions to have consequences. The story loses all power if you can make the worst possible mistake*, fix it with a few magical gizmos and skip the part where you actually learn anything.
*That's granting the dubious premise that Angel's main mistake in season 8 was snapping Giles' neck. But I've given up any hope for him being held accountable for all the other damage he did, or for his treatment of Buffy, namely beating the crap out of her physically and emotionally so he could transform her into a co-Goddess. I'm not sure how de-protagonizing Buffy fits with Joss's overall set of values, but there it is. Go Angel!
Maggie | May 29, 12:04 CET
Maggie; The Whedonverse isn't that big on accountability of that sort.
[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2013-05-29 21:24 ]
DaddyCatALSO | May 29, 12:22 CET
daylight | May 29, 13:19 CET
Regarding Angel managing to rectify his mistakes without serious consequence, let's think about the title of the arc...he's managed to get what he wants, but we've not yet seen the consequences of that fact this isn't what he needs (assuming the title refers at least in part to him). I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that's going to play out during the endgame here.
Alex_Jamieson | May 29, 13:57 CET
Added: And I also want accountability / consequences! But I'll be surprised if some of that's not on the horizon.
[ edited by darling on 2013-05-29 23:13 ]
darling | May 29, 14:12 CET
cheryl | May 29, 14:28 CET
For Angel, if one is counting time-people-say-he-was-killed-even-though-he-technically-wasn't-killed-at-all and coming back as "resurrection", see above, re: sequences of events that threatened to bring about the end of the world -- Jasmine ostensibly actually did it for the instrumentality; Whistler manipulated the fact of it to his goal of realizing the Twilight prophecy. Of course, if one just means Angel becoming a vampire, that event has more or less rippled through history in ways good and ill.
Spike, in fairness, I don't think has caused the world around him any adverse consequences by being brought back. So good for him.
But that's consequences covered.
As for the idea that Angel "got it done", in the sense that a golfer's approach shot missing the green and landing in rough is "getting it done", yes, he "got it done", but as bringing back Giles as a 2nd year at Hogwart's was not his actual goal and is actually really inconvenient and frustrating to everyone involve, none more than Giles, it's not exactly the unqualified success you are suggesting.
KingofCretins | May 29, 16:19 CET
What Is Giles? Back, with all his memories and faculties. I'll take it and give thanks.
cheryl | May 29, 18:37 CET
KingofCretins | May 29, 18:45 CET
I really want to see the Scoobies' reaction to kid Giles now.
nyrk | May 29, 19:25 CET
Here's the rest of what Giles had to say (paraphrased). He would have been grateful to Angel except (1) Angel killed him; (2) Angel used obscene sorcery to resurrect him; (3) did so while ignoring the apocalyptic crisis that mattered more and (4) screwed him over royally by bringing him back at the age of 12.
Just to make sure we know what that means -- we have the aunts saying that Giles outburst was "adorable". Seriously think for a minute what it would mean to go back to being 12, and inescapably being treated as 12 by everyone around you.
That next page also makes it clear why Angel was doing this "heroic" thing -- he can't wait to tell Buffy. An interesting response when it might have been more appropriate to feel chagrined at the litany of charges Giles just leveled at him -- but Giles is just 12, so who cares what he had to say.
So by all means, let's all give three cheers for Angel and his altruistic concern for Giles. Or not.
Maggie | May 29, 19:53 CET
cheryl | May 29, 20:39 CET
Maggie - I took Giles' words to be referring to both Angel and Angelus: wasn't that explicit after the Moloch arc when Angelus was surfacing at various points when Giles' soul (or parts of it) were also in Angel(us)'s body? I may be remembering incorrectly, but that's what I took from that passage at least. I also don't think that Angel experiences delight about Angelus' atrocities (if that's what Giles was referring to). I'm sure he is hugely ambivalent about them (something that he would never admit I'm sure) but delighted is probably not subtle enough to describe the narcissism inherent in viewing his many selves. I may be splitting hairs at this point...
Good stuff this week, thoroughly enjoyed it! I remembering thinking earlier in the season that maybe teenage Giles would be the one to be resurrected, but I actually forgot about that idea until it happened just now. Cool!
insistondoubt | May 29, 21:32 CET
Except for that whole two-vampires-with-soul-equals-reality-about-to-collapse-thing.
apollo11 | May 30, 01:02 CET
KingofCretins | May 30, 02:42 CET
DaddyCatALSO | May 30, 04:25 CET
A bit misogynistic.
Xane | May 30, 06:31 CET
KingofCretins | May 30, 07:02 CET
cheryl | May 30, 07:12 CET
KingofCretins | May 30, 08:03 CET
sss1 | May 30, 08:14 CET
That said, I'm enjoying the arc but I found Giles words... forced? I have no doubt his better judgement would say some of these things, but he comes out of what would be a traumatic experience for most of us delivering monologues. This may just be me, but I would prefer it if in A&F I didn't feel so often like the characters are serving as mouthpieces to for the fandom's conflicting views. I've felt it at different points with most of these characters and it's something I never really noticed during AtS. Maybe it's the constant exposure by these writers via Q&As?
Something a I loved and something that confused me simultaneously was the 12 year old angle though. I loved it, because my gf loves fanfic (not in this fandom) and I have definitely seen within those communities a draw to making adult male characters children because it's cute just so they can tell adorable stories. It felt like a funny shout out in a way. But I'm confused, because if Sophie and Lavinia were concentrating on itty bitty Giles, why is Angel being held responsible for it? Also, as funny a gag as it is, are we not inadvertently saying something is very wrong with their characters that this serious thing is going on and they want to see a fully grown man as a child again? I can't say it is or is not out of character. But if it IS in character, that would worry me.
azzers | May 30, 09:07 CET
bigsofty | May 30, 09:19 CET
cheryl | May 30, 11:48 CET
Was it Willow erasing Tara's memory? Or maybe Xander recklessly summoning a dancing demon? Somehow these pale.
KingofCretins | May 30, 12:01 CET
Simon | May 30, 13:15 CET
The last third of the book, for what its worth, is all the characters planning on how to find Whistler, and that they may all get killed trying to stop him from carrying out out his evil, self-admitted substitute plan. I liked that the aunts are more than happy to get rezzed if anyone is willing. I wish more attention was paid to the fact that they actually mean to join that battle, though. It's like they have had Cordy's and Anya's "Buffy" arcs (sans Xander dating) over the course of 22 issues while nobody was looking.
KingofCretins | May 30, 14:38 CET
But we have people angsting over Angel even attempting this, whether his priorities are motives are correct, but at least Angel just wanted to bring the man back as he ws. The aunts for their own purposes materially changed Giles. Giles is physically weaker. Giles is hitting puberty again and hormonal. In a fight or researching he will be less useful. I was absolutely heartbroken to hear how redundant he felt to Faith.
I think the Cursed With Awesome is an interesting take, but then I look at Angel and Spike who are that character (eternally in their 20's). The problem is intellectually he is so far beyond everyone that looks like him in terms of knowledge and life experience. If no gizmo fixes Giles, I'm not sure he has the kind of fun we think he would have. It's not like he's Marcus from Carpe Noctem who was perfectly fine with shallow youthful experiences. I'm not being sex negative there, I'm just not sure that's Giles thing.
I think if you keep the narrative organic to who Giles actually was when he died, what has happened (the age change, not the resurrection) is deeply troubling. He may adjust, but the added dangers, complications, and his lack of choice in any of it is troubling.
azzers | May 30, 16:09 CET
I stand by "cursed with awesome". There's so much more to it than getting laid, although he'll probably be able to do that exceptionally well (which, by the way, for purposes of "squick" will we consider him the same age as his physiological peer group as he grows up here, or still a middle-aged man?). He has an unmapped, second chance at life that didn't cost him the ordinary price the fantasy of it asks -- trading your actual life experiences. He's gotta wait for it to both literally and figuratively mature, but... cursed with awesome.
It also matters that I don't think of this Giles as being a "child" in any meaningful sense of the world. All that makes him that is... aesthetics, really. Other than Faith's conceptual boundaries, he still is the man she missed having. I put him more as what'sherDunst from "Interview" right now.
Another take on it... and please, please don't misunderstand me... there is a certain way in which Re-Giles is an expy of Tyrion Lannister in the story -- a profoundly cunning and thoughtful, layered persona that has a... physical confinement of sorts that is completely unsuitable to the extremes of his lifestyle (by which I am comparing the supernatural, genre elements of the Buffyverse to Westeros' medieval, martial setting -- not implying that the normal, mundane world is somehow no place for literal dwarfism, or for that matter to equate adult dwarfs to children in any but the most physical way). And, obviously, there is a significant divergence between them in that Giles' body will, at least we presently assume, age normally, so if there is a parallel to be found, it will be temporary. But it just crossed my mind today as I was thumbing back through A Game of Thrones. If we're getting this version of Giles as status quo for a while, and assuming they don't really change his persona much (other than occasional blue humor about his hormones), I will be interesting to see how similarly the two characters fit into their respective story settings.
KingofCretins | May 30, 17:13 CET
Shade of Pale | May 31, 05:42 CET
The Tyrion comparison is a bit apt, but I think the fact remains that despite what prejudice a dwarf may go through in ASoIaF, no one mistakes his age or his status. Giles will be more of a gag than Tyrion is. Giles dignity is removed whereas Tyrion is the result of directly creating his. It's a character with his power removed whereas Tyrion creates his power.
In the end, we can't read too much because just like Mecha Dawn, this may just be machinations of plot. It just may be that after years of Buffyverse critical analysis, this really strikes me as problematic, funny though it may be.
azzers | May 31, 13:00 CET
embers | June 01, 12:14 CET
...What? Nah. They'd never go with something so absurd as that, surely?
;)
Great issue though.
apollo11 | June 01, 15:58 CET
I'm still thinking of Giles as cursed with awesome, although with his awesome held in trust until he's a little older. Assuming he doesn't, as for instance, say "now that we've saved the world from Whistler, I'm going to take advantage of having a new lease on life and growing up to go do... anything else, ever, with my superior intellect and perspective as my absurd competitive advantage" -- by the time Re-Giles is 20 he could be the biggest baddest-assed Badass Normal the Buffyverse has ever seen.
And saying that at the tail end of "Want to be Badass Normal? Ask Me How" Season 9, that's bold commentary indeed.
KingofCretins | June 01, 16:55 CET
I should have my copy later this week(the next few days will be hectic) and I'm greatly looking forward to it sicne I did also read the reactions around too.
Buffyfantic | June 03, 19:55 CET
richied1983 | June 07, 17:26 CET
That's the thing about fictional characters, they can be so melodramatic. I'd switch places with him RIGHT NOW, without even giving it a second thought.
Angel&Faith | June 16, 09:35 CET