Grr. Argh.

Maybe TNT? Don't think they would be able to give them much of a budget, though...

NekoDono | March 04, 04:06 CET

grr arrgh

i might as well face it now, life is over as i/we know it.

buffyfanatic18 | March 04, 04:10 CET

Yes, I'd like to hear a definite comment by Mutant Enemy to let us fans know if there is any hope for any other network picking it up. I feel, though, that with UPN declining, that all hope is gone.

Let's hope Firefly/Serenity is a huge success and that Joss will then be able to do a Buffy/Angel movie. I'd like to see that on the big screen and not on the WB.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 04:11 CET

UPN hasn't "officially" rejected "Angel" yet though.

Invisible Green | March 04, 04:13 CET

This sucks! I am now coming to grips that this truly is the end. I just wanted to thank everyone here for their witty comments and enlightening conversations. It has been wonderful sharing all that is Whedon with you. I bid you farewell. Thank God for DVD's.

Coll | March 04, 04:47 CET

Grr Argh! indeed. Ah well, we sorta knew by now. The official statements are always the last to come out. I'm sure Joss isn't saying squat until all options are 500% lost.

And yeah man I so hope "Serenity" will be a success! It would give Joss some extra clout for future projects, on TV or the big screen.

"This sucks! I am now coming to grips that this truly is the end. I just wanted to thank everyone here for their witty comments and enlightening conversations. It has been wonderful sharing all that is Whedon with you. I bid you farewell. Thank God for DVD's. "

Hey now! We're all still here! Joss is not dead or something. Get back here, doggnabbit!

EdDantes | March 04, 05:10 CET

Well, we based that decision on Allyson's comments here (and elsewhere) yesterday because she's a reliable source even though there hasn't been an "official" comment. I was hoping there would be something today to link to (if I'm gonna put it on our home page, I want to be able to provide an article link), but since I don't doubt her info it seemed silly to encourage people to prolong the appeals to UPN.

So, basically, we're not saying anything more definitive than what was already said yesterday. No inside sources or connections to report ;)

chasa | March 04, 05:33 CET

Ok on the TNT front ..... They are back in the sieres business as well as plans for mini-series and more original movies. It seems unlike the WB network they actually made money last year. Also after recent emmy wins and nominations the FX network recieved they are gearing up so not to lose the momentum they now have -so could Angel be a valuable property to them as a mini-series if not a full seires - why not?

RavenU | March 04, 05:42 CET

But that's not what's happening. I mean, those are lovely ideas, but that's not what is actually going to happen. What's going to happen is that the show will end, there will be a lovely wrap party, and everyone will, hopefully, find fantastic new jobs.

Allyson | March 04, 05:48 CET

Allyson, it seems your sole purpose in life is to poo-poo hope. I've seen you on other sites doing the same thing. Let people have their hope, as misguided as it may be.
And, despite your 'connections', you don't really know what's 'actually going to happen'.
Of course we realize there is probably no hope, but what slim amount there is, let people hold on to it.

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 06:02 CET

And from the Tribune broadcasting front ....Nielsen Media Research said Wednesday it signed an 8-year agreement with Tribune Broadcasting Co. that includes service for all 26 Tribune-owned stations. As part of the agreement, eight Tribune stations will subscribe to Nielsen’s Local People Meter service. The Nielsen People Meter methodology will enable individual Tribune stations to access continuous daily demographic audience estimates. Nielsen plans to complete Local People Meter expansion into the top 10 markets by 2006.
Why couldn't they have done that for this past season - it may have helped Angel seeing as how Tribune is a proponate of the show. :P

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-03-04 04:32 ]

RavenU | March 04, 06:18 CET

And there was even more news from our friendly foes at the Nielsens ... In a move to catch up with the disruption of TV viewing patterns from TiVo and its pals, Nielsen will credit networks for much-but not all-of the viewership of their shows on DVRs. In a memo to clients issued Wednesday, the ratings agency said that viewing of network sitcoms and dramas played back on DVRs will be included in national ratings starting July 2005. However, Nielsen’s overnight ratings will only include programs watched live. The company will later revise the ratings to credit networks for time-shifted shows, provided they are played back within seven days. Nielsen has not yet settled on how treat viewers who fast forward through a program. Nielsen has traditionally relied on a metered home’s channel changes, which means nothing if they’re watching the show on a DVR.
They are still running behind the times as always cause if they had they had this in effect this year I think renew Angel may have been a no brainer - since I know alot of people who do TIVO Angel and watch it later.

[ edited by RavenU on 2004-03-04 04:31 ]

RavenU | March 04, 06:24 CET

Allyson, it seems your sole purpose in life is to poo-poo hope.

That's absurd. And insulting. There's hope, and then there's denial.

My "sole purpose in life is to be a poo-poo hope?" You know nothing of my life, or its purpose, dear. Keep the personal insults to yourself.

Allyson | March 04, 06:51 CET

I'd say denial is when people say "Angel will be back! I don't care what anyone else says."

Hope is "Probably not much chance, but there are still other avenues that can be taken."

An insult would be "you're a poo-poo head"

An opinionated observation is: 'it SEEMS your sole purpose in life is to poo-poo hope"

But by your own standards, you saying we're in denial is a personal insult, dear.

Before you have stated that you didn't want people to spend their hard earned money on an endeavor that would probably be fruitless. Fine. But this is people coming up with ideas and sharing theories. The harm? None. Fruitless? Almost certainly.
Denial? Nope, that was 2 grief stages ago. We're now to bargaining. Let people grieve and bargain as they see fit. Let them throw out money if it makes them feel better. Why must you be negative(I know, you'll say realistic)? We all know the chances are slim to none(I know, you will say none!) of anything positive happening. But we're not all ready to roll over for the end yet.

I guess I just don't understand the point of your input. Are you trying to make us see the light or something? Because it all seems pretty negative from this side of the fence.

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 07:45 CET

I kind of feel the same way. I know it's most likely hopeless but I can still be hopeful if there hasn't been any definite word from ME. No one is being harmed by hoping and if people want to send a few dollars to support their cause that's up to them. I'm sure the Howard Dean people don't regret backing him and trying even though he had a snowball's chance in Hell to win.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 07:51 CET

While I continue to respect Allyson's connections to the ME PTB and her repeated attempts to inject a dose of pragmatism into the discussion, I do agree that it is up to every individual person to cope with Angel's cancellation in their own way. If it helps someone to hold onto lovely hopes in the face of impossible or near-impossible odds, I say that's their choice. If they find fellow hope-ers to discuss their dreams with, let them take comfort in that. I do understand Rogue Slayer's position on that. What is the point of saying that there's no hope if it's already been said?

And let us not forget that continuing to actively support Angel and lobby for its comeback, no matter what a pipedream that may be, can only help the chances of a possible future Angel movie or telemovie. Or an Angel/Buffyverse spinoff. It is important that the media, etc., keep getting those "we LOVE Angel" signals for as long as possible. Keeping the Whedonverse in the news and in entertainment executives' minds is a good thing, right?

phlebotinin | March 04, 08:47 CET

And, despite your 'connections', you don't really know what's 'actually going to happen'.

Firstly, why is 'connections' in quotes? Secondly, how do you know what I know? I mean, you sound awfully sure. Are you reading my email? Tapping my phone?

Secondly, just as you don't understand the point of my input, I don't understand clinging to false hope. So perhaps we're even.

Allyson | March 04, 10:16 CET

Or thirdly. Something.

Allyson | March 04, 10:20 CET

I agree with RogueSlayer, Allyson always seems to bring me down when I start to have hope.

pezwitch | March 04, 10:26 CET

'Connections' is in quotes because I didn't want to imply to anyone reading that that you were an official spokesperson or voice of UPN, ME, etc.(No, you've never said you were, I was just trying to avoid confusion for anyone who might think you had direct parlay with the decision making PTB) It wasn't an attempt to downplay your fanclub president status.

And it's just rather obvious that since you don't speak to Joss Whedon or Dawn Ostroff, nor do you make the decisions yourself, you don't know what's 'actually going to happen.' You have your own opinion, and the input from those around you, like anyone else. Just like Joss had his opinion on if Angel would get another season, and the opinions of those around him....were all pretty positive. See what can happen when you least expect it?
Shows deader than Angel have gotten rebirth. Not many, but enough to give hope.

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 10:29 CET

I almost stayed out of this due to the unpleasantness in the other post, but I don't want Allyson to feel that everyone is getting down on her.

Personally I respect and appreciate everything Allyson does for us and for the rest of the fandom. I think at some point reality needs to take the place of hope, and for better or worse, I'm relieved when it does. There's a sort of depressed calm that, at least for me, is infinitely better than the constant worry that comes with faint hope.

Some people know better than me what's going to happen, and Allyson is one of those people. She's proven it. For some reason in Hollywood, things like this are never rumored and then turn out to be false. I suppose it doesn't help that I already went through all of this with Firefly.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I'd prefer the doctor give it to me straight and tell me that there's an 90% chance I'm going to die, allowing me to come to terms, rather than list the myriad of miniscule longshots to keep my hope (and denial) alive.

ringworm | March 04, 10:57 CET

I got permission to post the email I got from Mutant Enemy. I hope this helps in where I'm coming from. I'm just relishing every last ep.

hey allyson-

i got confirmation from joss' camp that while it was discussed with UPN, the
official word is that it's not a financially viable show for that
network.

i hope that information's helpful to you in curbing the efforts of our
very generous fans.

So, this is the one time I am speaking officially. Ever. I feel weird about it, and hope that someone more 'official' than I (because as Rogue Slayer points out, I don't work for Mutant Enemy or Angel) posts and then, you know, you'll believe, and be able to take a deep breath, relish the upcoming eps, celebrate Firefly, and give Wonderfalls the love it's going to need. And have good memories of Angel. And let it go. Hard as it is.

If how you greive is to grasp at straws, I guess, there's no salve I can apply.

Allyson | March 04, 11:24 CET

Thank you Allyson. Official enough for me.

Simon | March 04, 11:29 CET

Allyson, I think my main thing is that you said all this a 100 times over. If people want to cling to hope, let them. You don't understand it, but...well, you don't have to. Those people can decide for themselves what they want to think or do. And if that is hoping against hope, well, let them.

Maybe it's just helpful or comforting to people to cling together and talk about stuff, and come up with options. Maybe everyone has their own way of well, not to sound too heavy, but..dealing with things. So let them.

Also, I think more than the content of your words, the tone in which you say things may upset some people. I'm sure you don't mean it but you do give off a bit of a condescending vibe when you post about this. And just like last time we talked about it, you basically don't want to say where you get info, you or who you know, but you do expect us to believe you on you word. And when we don't, you find us stupid because you then prove have it from on high.

And in earlier threads several people said to you 'Ok, we know it's probably over. Let us just say and do what we want.' and I guess I just don't understand why that is so hard for you to do.

EdDantes | March 04, 12:07 CET

Ah. I should clarify. My tone is likely coming from this being a hard thing for me to say, so I'm sounding cold.

The hundred times comes from me saying this, and then seeing folks say, "Hey, how 'bout TNT, how about if we pay for it, how about Direct to DVD!"

And I think, "No one is listening. Okay, maybe it wasn't clear."

So that's what's what from me.

I mean, DeKnight was just playing with us at the Beta, and Joss and Tim were playing with us at Buffistas, and everyone is talking about how they're hoping for new things, and celebrating other projects, and looking toward the future, and I'm saddened that there's some fans that can't do the same, I guess.

I want my fandom to continue, and I see some folks clinging to a fight, when there's entirely too much to look forward to.

I don't find you stupid, you're putting words in my mouth that don't exist.

And I guess I'm just used to the fandom knowing me, and knowing that I don't bullshit them. When the Bronze went down, and fandom fractured, the Who's Who got lost. And I feel a bit embarassed prefacing everything with: I'm Allyson, I wrote for ScoopMe, I've steered Serenity, Fury sends me birthday gifts, Chris Buchanan takes my calls, I wrote an ad for Variety on the Firefly DVDs, I worked on PBP auctions, I had a fan party and the writers came, I raised tens of thousands for charity on behalf of fandom, I run DavidFury.net, I had drinks with reps at UPN to try and save the Bronze, my closest friends run some of the biggest fandom sites, and this fandom and these shows have meant more to me than I can describe. And I probably, definately, don't deserve the wonderful things that I've received from the people that made this 'verse.

Because I sound like an asshole braggart saying that, and trying to impress upon you that if *I* have no hope, then it's not just any other opinion. It's an extraordinarily educated opinion from someone who just went through this last year.

I don't feel attacked. I feel loved by the fandom and I hope that the people behind the shows that brought the fandom together understand how much respect I feel for them, and hope I've not been too much of a pain in the ass.

Maybe I've been able to have some closure that others havent had.

Allyson | March 04, 12:56 CET

The hundred times comes from me saying this, and then seeing folks say, "Hey, how 'bout TNT, how about if we pay for it, how about Direct to DVD!"

And I think, "No one is listening. Okay, maybe it wasn't clear."


I think you have to realize(as has been pointed out a million times before) that many of us will have hope, even after the show is gone. Firefly was dead, but it got new life. Many of us know rationally that the show will not get another season, but we hope for the impossible, and beyond that, we hope for future Angel possibilities.

I'm not sure why you're so uncomfortable with people hoping and talking about options. I'm sure this isn't the way you mean it, but it almost becomes a matter of "They should stop hoping because I tell them to, because I'm in the know. How many times do I have to tell you people?"

And the whole 'fight' is just another way of showing support. Of showing that we loved this show and want it to come back in some manner, if possible.

I'm very certain the series is over in this incarnation. But a little part of me will hold out a sliver of hope until I turn on the tv in October and there is no Angel. Just the way I(and some others) are. It's not denial, because, as I said before, shows deader than Angel have been revived. If at that point I say, "Well, maybe they're only going to do half a season, and it's going to be a big surprise in January!!"--well, that, in my opinion is denial. For others it would still qualify as hope.

My point is, I'm not going to try and dampen anyone's spirits. And you can't either, Allyson, though you seem to be trying at every turn. Let people hope, even if you think it's denial or pointless. Why does it bother you so much??

Rogue Slayer | March 04, 19:34 CET