ummm..... prolific, i believe this was already posted.

400lb_Gorilla | March 04, 05:43 CET

Yes, it was posted but I'm assuming Prolific posted it again because this is the forum for discussing the weekly episode and the original post is now quite far down the page and most likely will disappear rather quickly. That's my assumption anyway.

Excellent episode. Amy Acker did a great job portraying the Demon (not going to attempt to spell that name right now). She was quite believable and I had a hard time distinguishing that it was actually Fred.

It was sadder for me this week because they confirmed that Fred is dead and even her soul was destroyed. That means she isn't even in Heaven and is just completely gone.

I loved Wesley this episode. I loved when he walked in on Gunn and the doctor and over heard everything. I was pissed off at Gunn but at the same time felt bad for him and found it interesting that he is now in the place that Wesley was after the Connor kidnapping, alone in a hospital bed feeling guilty for his actions. The difference is Wesley did it to protect an innocent baby and Gunn did it for selfish reasons. Were we to understand that Gunn knew someone would die when he "signed" that release form? I was a little confused about that.

The special effects were fantastic this episode from Angel being thrown threw the window, the slow motion effects and Knox's body being kicked through the air into Wesley.

I'm also thrilled that they are making the Demon intriguing and somewhat likable that you kind of felt bad for her. Is she attracted to Wesley becuase of Fred's memories that she retains? Very intriguing and I can't wait to see where they go with this.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 07:17 CET

Definitely great acting on Amy's behalf. I too was really sad to hear that Fred is just completely gone. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. R.I.P. Winifred Burkle. 2 girls down this season... maybe Joss is making up for it since Buffy was all women and Angel's mostly men now.

BlindHawkeyes | March 04, 07:23 CET

blwessels - they'll be going exactly 6 episodes with it, minus whatever time is spent wrapping up the big bad, then we're done... not a lot of time to develop it.

However there is now someone to talk to about what the Wolf, Ram and Hart were like in the beginning.....

[ edited by phearlez on 2004-03-04 05:24 ]

phearlez | March 04, 07:24 CET

Joss can do a lot in 6 episodes. The whole Caleb ark in Buffy was done in five and I loved it. Who knows, maybe she's an idea for a spinoff.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 07:26 CET

Jeez this show is violent. I could imagine Joe Lieberman would have a fit watching this. Angel thrown out the window (just like in ep1!!!), Gun stabbed, Frankenstein neck-snapped. And yet the focus of the show remains the emotions of the characters. I watch the show with 2 roommates, who are in it for the action. I'm in it for the heartbreak. We were all pleased.

Chirp | March 04, 07:26 CET

Yes, it was a violent episode and they didn't give any warning at all. They gave a major warning at the beginning of Smallville that it contained content that might not be suitable for younger viewers and Angel had ten times more "content" than what Smallville had.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 07:29 CET

Is it me or did Amy remind anyone else of Farscapes Chiana at least in the way she moved.

RavenU | March 04, 07:39 CET

Yup RavenU I saw that too... I really liked her transformation, from her movements to her voice. And I think the makeup is awesome.

I loved every Wesley moment in this episode... the fact that Gunn's lie is discovered early, by Wesley, and what Wesley does about it - without pause. Then of course interrupting Angel's self-important blah blah blah to put an end to Knox (whom I will miss ... jeez Joss, what did Jonathan Woodward ever do to you? Can't he please survive even one of your shows?).

I'm also fascinated by Illyria's big letdown. Millions of years of waiting & the army was slaughtered while she was gone. And she is lost. Grieving for her triumph. And wondering what to do next.

Having her be pseudoFred though doesn't seem promising to me. How tragic that Angel & Spike list all the people who came back in the Buffyverse & just assume it can be made to work that way for everyone.

If there's one thing I love most about Joss's shows, its how they continually surprise me by blowing away television cliche's... so much so that they are developing a crusty layer of cliche's of their own. ME-che's, if you will (made that up, I hope it sticks)... like people who are happy are never happy for long, and that people who die can often come back. If Angel has to end, let it end with blowing away the ME-che's too.

[ edited by gingeriffic on 2004-03-04 05:41 ]

gingeriffic | March 04, 07:39 CET

wow i didn't find it especially violent at all.. i must have been desensitized after seeing mel gibson's pointless bloodbath last wednesday :-(

i was mucho impressed with amy acker this ep, fred was just not there, at all. nice work.

i was confused about gunn's culpability... the previous 2 eps never gave any clear indication that he was aware one of his mates would be harmed. did they...?

also where was the door to illyria's world...? it looked like the lobby of the old hotel where they used to work. or an abandoned train station...

my b/f and i were crushed to hear that fred's soul doesn't even exist, that she can't go on in that sense. showing her at the end, leaving home to begin her new life at university was quite bittersweet.

i have every faith that joss and crew can work illyria into the cast, bring out the big bad, and tie it all up in 6 episodes flat.

t r a c y | March 04, 07:51 CET

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I love Alexis. I love Amy. Geezuz. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking about all the possible storylines that could have gone on next year from the stuff that's been happening. God, this is KILLING me.

You know Illyria wants to take out "Wolf Ram and Hart"....that would be cool in and of itself.

Harmony...showing DEPTH? Whoa. Cool! (However, does anyone else see her as being very "old school" Cordy. Very similar.) God, Harmony as a cast reg would have kicked.

Aaargggh! I weep for all that might have been/be!

cubiclesatan | March 04, 07:57 CET

Wow, best Angel ever! I wanna do the nasty with Ileria, is that wrong?

vpecoraro | March 04, 08:03 CET

blwessels, was the "violent content" warning for Smallville in particular or for "tonight's presentation?"

Invisible Green | March 04, 08:13 CET

does anyone know who the song was by that they played at the end of the episode?

i really loved this ep. amy acker was totally amazing. i was a little pissed at the fact that they got me all excited with the prospect of willow returning only to dash that hope immediately. interesting to hear that the old crew wasn't willing to help because they are still at wolfram and hart.

it was interesting to hear about the beginnings of "wolf ram and hart." i can't wait to see what they do with all of that.

skyefall | March 04, 08:25 CET

Wesley-gone-psychotic always scares me like nothing else. I was furious/fearful of what he was doing the entire episode, but at the end, when Illyria asked him if he's doing it because she looks like her, that soft "Yes" he gave pretty much killed me. Wow. If Alexis doesn't get a fantastic acting job after AtS, I'll be really really upset. (And Amy was great! As was JAR. I think I felt worse for Gunn than for Wes.)

Also? The bunny again. That made me tear up.

I really really hope Illyria can tell us more about the ancient Wolf Ram and Hart. One of the creepiest moments of the entire series (I think, at least) was when the gang discovered the Wolf Ram and Heart books in Pylea. It might just be me, but I want to know more about W&H.

witless | March 04, 08:30 CET

Funny no mention of violent warnings in this episode or nudity warnings (for Illyria) but Spike takes off his clothes and we see dead people hacking off body parts and we get all kinds of bells and whistles. Stoopid double standard and with the new indecency laws hitting the air waves I'm surprised they showed that much. I think Smallville got one cause it plays to a younger audience than Angel typically does. :)

RavenU | March 04, 08:31 CET

Still fairly stunned by the episode. The acting was great, I agree.

I'm obsessed with Gunn and his predicament. Why did the Senior Partners decide to take away the brain upgrade from Gunn in the first place? That has not been answered. Is it related to what the liaison told Gunn in the White Room in "A Hole in the World" when Gunn went there to plead for Fred's life: "You are failing!" Failing, how? Gunn then says, "this is not about me." The liaison's response? "I believe you think that." (I'm not quoting exactly, so please correct me if I've gone too far off).

What the heck does this all mean? Has Gunn been failing in carrying out Wolfram & Hart's mission, whatever that is? Was the liaison referring to the entire team as failing? Can Gunn find his way back into Team Angel? I can't wait to find out. And I really, really can't wait to find out how Illyria is to fit in. Very neat twist that she's no longer the uber-evil.

Okay, I'm sorry for rambling, but I can't help pointing out something extremely eerie. After watching "Shells" I returned to watching season four, which I've been working my way through again. I popped in "Sacrifice" right after "Shells" and was dumbstruck when I heard the following exchange between Fred and Gunn in a tunnel during their escape from Jasmine's Shiny Happy World. They're referring to the guilt and horror that has stayed with them after killing Seidel:

FRED: ....And, you know, sometimes when I allow myself to think about it, it eats me up inside.

GUNN: Yeah, me, too.

FRED: Well I don't know about you, but....I'd take that over being a shell any day.

Eeek. Coincidence? I think not.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2004-03-04 06:59 ]

phlebotinin | March 04, 08:33 CET

I think the parental warning is more directly attributed to the time period, at 7 smallville might need it. Angel had it during the 3rd season but it was following 7th heaven, and god knows why.

400lb_Gorilla | March 04, 08:43 CET

The song was "A Place Called Home" by Kim Richey. And it was a fantastic choice.

Awesome, awesome episode. I loved it!

Haunt | March 04, 08:46 CET

It's interesting that this particular uber-threat may not have to be put down like all the ones in the past. Goddess Glory & former Power Jasmine had to be destroyed, though if you remember "Peace Out", Angel did offer Jasmine a place on his side of the fight. I wonder if this thing with Illyria is partly Mutant Enemy following through with the idea that they only toyed with last season.

It's sad about Fred, but there really wasn't anywhere interesting to go with her unless the writers started writing her out of character. This way we still get Amy Acker every week (they really should change the credits, though I believe that costs money since Joss gave that as the reasoning why they wouldn't put Jesse in the credits for Welcome To The Hellmouth/The Harvest). Plus we get something completely new.

Kris | March 04, 08:55 CET

agreed with much already said. This ep was much more affecting than last week's, imho.

I love the ME boomerangs----seeing Wes on the opposite side of the "one beloved person's life vs. thousands of people's lives" argument than he was back in BtVS S3 when the Scoobs had the Box of Gavrock and the Mayor had Willow.

Alexis broke my heart with that last "Yes." He's amazing.

jeebs | March 04, 09:03 CET

I thought this was an excellent episode it complimented the last episode better than most two part episodes. All the performances were brilliant.

RavenU | March 04, 09:06 CET

blwessels pretty much summed it up for me and I'm looking forward for more discussion on the wolf, ram, & hart since it seems that Illyria is somewhat joining forces with the good guys.

And I'm deeply saddened by the fact that Fred is *gone* but some part of me won't believe that since she was too good to go out like that. It's good that Illyria can remember parts of Fred, though. I didn't get the impression that Illyria was.. you know, evil but I dunno. She was more of a "it's not about right or wrong, it's about power" demon so maybe that's why she wants to change. To fit in. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em type of deal. Perhaps she'll be able to assist them in the big fight ahead.

And why the hell was Giles so pissy? Ugh. They're really making me hate him. Willow knew Fred, you know!

And I liked how Harmony isn't really.. drowning in pain since she hasn't a soul or anything but you can see how it's affecting her. It seems perfect to me.

I loved the S3 dynamic all over again, too and Alexis did an excellent job through the ep. Just like Amy did during last week's.

The end was very perfect. Winifred Burkle. Setting out on a new life. Leaving. R.I.P.

Christopher | March 04, 09:13 CET

Anyone else notice the lack of background noise or music in the scene between Illyria and Wes (kinda reminisant of the Body episode of Buffy) until the song montage began. Kinda gave it more of a surreal feeling or at least that was my perception.

RavenU | March 04, 09:34 CET

I took the end of this episode to mean that whatever, wherever, however Fred's soul went/did/was/is whatever.. I believe, or like to believe that that is where Fred's essence perpetually is now. That she's reliving that point in her life which was bittersweet but perhaps the best moment in her life. Though leaving her loving family behind, Fred was getting in that car and heading towards her destiny. It doesn't matter that her destiny was to struggle for five years in a cave hiding from Lorne's distant relatives, and then eventually get gutted out like a jackolantern and turned into Illin'yria. She didn't know any of that. The point was she was facing that destiny. Frightened but brave. That's our Fred. Forever.

Hell is reliving the worst moments of your life over and over. Heaven is reliving the best moments of your life. I kinda like that sentiment.

ZachsMind | March 04, 09:38 CET

Nicely said, ZachsMind.

That actually helps my mood. Alot. Even if she was just a character..

Christopher | March 04, 09:47 CET

Everything in this episode feels like a repeat to me.

Gunn in the hospital, estranged from the team. Been there, done that with Wesley.

A beloved female character turned evil. Been there, done that with Cordelia.

"There's a big bad a'coming"? Ugh. Every season of Buffy, but the worst with the last.

And the slow-mo thing? Seen it a million times, a lot better, on Smallville and a dozen other shows.

It all feels familiar, and therefore less engaging than it should.

Sorry to be the downer post.

But hey! Did anyone notice the return of the "previously on Angel"? Wonder if that's their fuck-you to the WB for the cancellation....

[ edited by fraying on 2004-03-04 08:40 ]

fraying | March 04, 10:22 CET

I was positive we would get Fred back after watching last week's episode. I was sure it was a mislead. But now I'm not too sure. I like the idea of Illyria Fred staying on as a new character and learning to be good. I have no idea how they are going to work this. But after the last scene with the flashback to Fred leaving Texas, I think it's goodbye Fred. Sad to see her go, but interested in these turn of events.

This show just keeps surprising me. I did not see this one coming.

Oh, and ZachsMind, don't make me cry! This show moves me to tears whenever I go back and look at the big picture. It's such powerful and mythic storytelling.

electricspacegirl | March 04, 10:29 CET

Maybe the repetition is the point? I mean, the MoG seems to remember a lot of the stuff that happened with Jasmine, but obviously not the whole story. And in their Connor-mindwiped memories, did Wes ever stray from the group?

lalaa | March 04, 10:36 CET

Sorry for double posting - it's because I am going spoilerfree so I can't see the other spoiler posts. Duh.

By the way, think I've said this before...

"He who forgets the past is destined to repeat it."

Caroline | March 04, 11:06 CET

Great ep. Some points that stuck out for me:

-Wesley. When the man gets a chance to shine he shines, and true to Jossism, he's at his best when he's unhappy. I also see what I've been thinking for a while now, that when it comes down to it, Wes may have more 'steel' than Gunn. And I don't just mean their confrontation. Alexis was superb.

-Amy, heh. Definitely a different person eh? Good job. She looked good too and I don't mean that in a geek boy way. The costume is not even all that sexy to me since it's all segments. But her face, when her hair blew back....something...I dunno. Good.

-Spike and Angel, still working together perfectly, without discontent, doing what needs to be done, complementing each other as a team. And what I've been hoping for since Buffy S7: Spike finally becoming his own person. Finding his own purpose for the purpose's sake. Not for the love of his mom, or a Cecily, or a Dru or a Buffy. Good stuff. And of course...eheheh "What'd you get out of the doc?" - "Screams. Fluids. A name." Hehehe. Oh yeah this is a dark and tough show.

-Wes shooting Knox in the middle of Angel's speech. Hah! They always play with your expectations. "Were you even listening??" Haha great stuff. To be funny at these moments and have it work. Great.

-Fred really dead. Not just dead. Gone. Even in death, you can still say 'see you in the afterlife', or 'in the next life' or even 'in a local hell dimension' or whatever. But Wes doesn't even have that hopeful speculation. She's gone. Her very soul consumed. Whole new level of tragic.

-The ending. Hm, can't comment. Not sure where they're going. She could be playing Wes, he could be playing her. What's Angel going to say? Will she hang around W&H? Too soon to tell or comment. Let the speculating commence.

And I was wondering what Joss would do. He thought this up before he knew there was no season 6 for Angel, he thought there WOULD be. But he wouldn't just write Amy out yet. And yet Fred is pretty much gone. So maybe Illyaria(sp??) would've been a new character for good or bad or both. Fred gone but not Amy gone. Hmm.

Oh and Blwessels? I don't think Gunn knew someone would die. But he did know whatever he'd let through would be evil and bad news for someone. As he said, (in amazing honesty) he didn't think it would be one of them. But what he had to sign in the end, was that his walking papers?

And as for the complaints that we've seen it all before, well....show me a series that doesn't repeat some kind of old plot. What they do with it this season is pretty much new and that's what matters.

Oh and Zachsmind? That was a beautiful thought. I did not see it, but I'll go with it and cling to it. Thanks.

EdDantes | March 04, 11:36 CET

I'm sorry, the Angel series doesn't deserve to die, but this season is just terrible IMHO. Compare the depth to season 3 or season 4. Now all they do is one soliloquy after another when the characters don't have enough dimension or interaction with each other (this season) to warrant such emotions. No wonder they cannot attract new viewers!

And since when can they just kill humans without consequence? Wes just shoots Knox and they joke about it? Remeber all the lectures in Buffy (and I think in Angel too) about killing demons is okay but no matter how evil a human it's not their right?

The tease about possibly trying to reach Willow was just silly. Unless they are actually going to bring her in again before the season ends (and I really hope so) it was a cheap stunt. With all the extensive resources WolfRam & Hart has, Willow is the only witch on call, even at a fraction of her power?

I seriously hope they tie up this season by exposing the true story about "Wolf Ram & Hart" as they have hinted to in past seasons and finally leave the law firm, it's done no good to the story but weaken it. But it could make a good tale for leaving.

By the way, was it just me or do they seem to be re-using the hotel set for the inside of the entrance portal to Illyria's temple? (Wolf Ram & Hart's basement?)

TaraLivesOn | March 04, 12:06 CET

Ooh, phlebotinin, thank you for pointing out that gorgeous bit of continuity. I live for that stuff.

I've recently made my way through the season three DVD set, and there was a part of "The Price" that also connects. When Fred has the creepy see-through slug inside of her and Gunn suggests that they take her to the hospital, she refuses, insisting that this is exactly what they want -- to get free and kill people. She'd rather sacrifice herself than have it inflict harm on others. An interesting conversation then ensues in which Gunn wants to ignore this and seek help to save Fred, and Angel tries to stop him, reminding him that she'd feel awful if she ended up being responsible for others' deaths. Gunn takes Angel to task on this, saying that it's Angel's fault that the slugs are there in the first place (they had come through the portal that Angel had opened to try to get Connor back), that he'd messed with mojo that he never should have messed with for selfish reasons. Now two years later, Gunn has done the same thing that he railed against Angel for doing, and the very ironic result has been Fred's death. To my mind, that's an incredibly powerful piece of long-haul characterization.

Loved the episode. In some ways, it was even more moving than last week's. I wasn't expecting that ending at all, and it was a pleasant surprise. I can't believe that there are only six more episodes left. Damn.

keever | March 04, 12:20 CET

I disagree, TaraLivesOn.

Willow made sense for the narrative. I doubt they'll bring AH back.

Wes can kill people because he was become morally ambigious. That's a part of his character. He betrays friends to do what's right, he kills when he is drawn to. He knows it is wrong, but it is who he is. He discussed this out loud to Illyria.

I think there's a lot of character interaction. Gunn to Harmony. Spike to Angel and vice-versa. Fred to Wes last episode was like a revisit to the last 3 seasons.

Yes they did re-use the set most likely.

I don't know how a mysterious, slowly revealed mythology to ANGEL's Biggest Bad is a weakness to the story.

This is my favorite season of Angel yet. It's some of the best work these guys have ever done. I am elated.

Chirp | March 04, 12:24 CET

If Fred's soul was burned or destroyed in the resurrection of Illyria, perhaps with Illyria's destruction or reversal of time, Fred could return. Or her soul freed. It brings hope for me, anyway.

Christopher | March 04, 17:00 CET

Can someone tell me where in the world the word 'offal' is pronounced 'oa-ful'?

Caroline | March 04, 17:08 CET

Yay, The Previouslies are back!
This was yet another very good episode, maybe not yet another "best episode ever" but last week would be hard to beat.
The fight scene was excellent, and Knox got his comuppance (spelling?). I would have liked to have seen more of Angel and Spike in the well as they decided the cost to save Fred was too high, but that would have been a hell of a lot to cram into an episode.
Even though Giles wasnt seen I felt he was portrayed excellently, once again as an amazingly unreasonable man (as in certain points of BTVS) the guy really has a problem with souled vampires ever since he got tortured by Angelus in "Becoming", never really forgiving Angel; never giving souled-Spike a chance; arranging Spike's murder in "Lies My Parents Told Me". His unreasonable attitude came through once again as he refused to get Willow to help Angel because of the fact that he doesn't much care for Angel and that he doesn't like that he's working for W&H. Maybe getting Spike to call Buffy to get Willow might have worked better.
I'm thinking that Fred really is gone, and that if the show were to get a 6th season, Amy Acker would still be a regular, but as Illyria.
Last Summer I always wondered how Harmony would be brought into the series, and I dreaded it, I was pleasently surprised when I actually found that I liked her in her now role as ditzy seceratary. But they're stretching it too far, some people say pre-soul-yet-good-guy Spike was too much of a stretch to accept, but he had a lot more reason than Harmony, he had a chip, the only people he got to hang around with were the good guys, and he was in love. Harmony doesn't have these reasons, the fact that she was "sucks at being evil" and that it's company policy not to kill people doesn't really explain how she was upset when Fred died, and that she comforted Gunn with a hand on his shoulder when he started crying. If a third vampire were ever to get a soul, I'm thinking it would be Harmony.
The next 6 weeks are going to be torture.

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2004-03-04 17:07 ]

Ghost Spike | March 04, 17:21 CET

Hey prolific--"offal" does have two pronunciations but even so she still pronounced it wrong. I think they were trying to differentiate from the word "awful". Or that's my excuse anyway.

And did anyone ever notice that in the season 2 finale Xander says "calvary" instead of "cavalry"? Not once but twice!

marmoset | March 04, 19:05 CET

"Calvary" is a word! Although so is "cavalry." They mean very different things. I think "calvary" has to do with emotional suffering, a la the cruxifiction of Jesus. Or something. But Xander no doubt should have said "cavalry." Funny. How do you remember these things, stakeholder? My hat is off to you.

phlebotinin | March 04, 19:10 CET

The short answer is: I'm weird. The long one: Not being religious, I had only learned the word "calvary" shortly before I saw this episode and I worried that maybe I had been mispronouncing "cavalry" my whole life and ran to the dictionary. Anyway, your reference above is much cooler than mine.

marmoset | March 04, 19:21 CET

Thanks EdDantes for clearing that up about Gunn. I was a bit confused on that part of the show.

Also, thanks to those who pointed out the continuation points. Those are something to ponder and Joss is such a genius on those things and what a memory that he has. To have make a comment about not ever wanting to be a shell and that's what ends up happening to her, the conversation about Fred not wanting others to die for her when she had that slug thing in her body, and the others mentioned are just great stuff. Joss Whedon and his team of writers are truly masters.

As for Fred's soul, I agree that Zachsmind's sentiments were nice but that isn't what I got from it. I feel they made a big point of letting us know that not only did Fred die but that her soul was also destroyed and lost forever, therefore, no afterlife for her. I think the flashback of her excitedly heading to her new life in LA was supposed to be a bittersweet goodbye to the character, she had everything to live for and died a tragic and horrible death.

Oh yeah, in answer to the couple of questions about my violence comment. No, I think the WB only had the warning for Smallville and it wasn't meant for both shows and someone mentioned that Smallville was on at 7 in their area but in my area it is on at 8 and Angel is on at 9. I also agree with RavenU that they made a big deal about Spike being naked and the violence of that show yet they didn't do the same for this episode, where it was a female character naked and had, in my opinion, more violence. The content didn't bother me, I was just commenting on someone else saying it was an incredibly violent episode and that I thought it was interesting that they gave a warning for Smallville but not Angel.

For those that don't watch Smallville, a main character got shot in the back running away from someone and at the end another character appeared to be committing suicide and was shown putting a gun in his mouth just as the show ended. Compare that to Wesley stabbing Gunn and Wesley shooting Knox in the heart. Now, it was a warning that younger viewers might be upset and maybe they don't think Angel has a younger audience but I believe it does because a lot of young people also watched Buffy and both shows had a lot of the same core viewers.

And someone else thought this was the worst season ever?!!? I'm just baffled by that because this is turning out to be one of the best and there has been so much character development it's leaving my head spinning trying to sink it all in.

As for the killing of humans comment that applied in the earlier seasons but they made it quite clear at the beginning of this season that any Wolfram & Hart employee who was caught betraying Angel and company would be killed. I know they are human but because they are working for Wolfram & Hart they have signed away their souls to work for them and that is what makes them different from normal humans.

One more thought on Fred's soul. The only way I can see that she could be brought back is the fact that Illyria retains some of Fred's memories and that they could some how rebuild her soul from those threads. But I really feel Fred is definitely dead and those memories are going to be used mainly to draw Wesley to Illyria and be attracted to her because of her having Fred's face and the bits of memories she has. I also think it will be why Illyria is attracted to Wesley. I think if there was to be another season Illyria was going to somehow be a part of the group and maybe sometime during that season they would've brought her back but, alas, we'll never know.

But with the end of the show looming, I am at least glad that all these actors have been given a chance to show just how talented they are. Amy Acker blew me away with her performance last night. I honestly had a hard time distinguishing that it was the same actress. She not only totally changed her voice but her entire way of moving was altered, like she truly was a being that was put in a shell and is getting used to this new environment and body.

I also believe all this rejection from the Buffy camp will be resolved and that some of the group will show up to help in the end and I can't wait to see who and what they do.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 19:22 CET

I'm afraid I'm with Taraliveson - I am not that impressed by this season at all, and found "Shells" to be unoriginal and unrevealing, and quite a let-down after "AHitW". I don't care to fight about it, though, just wanted to let you know that more than one of us out here feel that way.

wissxwe | March 04, 19:38 CET

Wissxwe - no problem that you're not impressed with this season, everyone sees things differently. I would say, though, that the majority of people are quite impressed with this season. The funny thing is, I thought last weeks episode was really good but I wasn't as impressed with it as everyone else seemed to be and I thought this one was better than last weeks.

Firefly Flanatic | March 04, 19:54 CET

stakeholder -- I'm weird, too! As for the "calvary" versus "cavalry" thing, I am not religious, either, and so had to look up the word(s) when I was writing the title of an Angel season four episode on a videotape label. Bizarrely (to me), it seems the official title for the episode in question IS "Calvary." At least that's what the WB site says in their listing. I'm wondering how to interpret that choice. Who's suffering cruxifiction-level emotional pain in that ep? Any religious folks out there willing to interpret?

Anyway, I'm damned if I'm ever going to get the two words straight. I have many spelling nemeses, these being among them.

phlebotinin | March 04, 20:21 CET

keever, that slug reference with Fred is way cool. ME continuity rocks! Another thing, I have this vague persistent feeling that there's another reference to Fred being saved/not saved by Angel in a pinch -- in one of the middle to later episodes of Season Four. Which episode, I don't know. What I "remember" is Fred saying something like, "Angel would save me," as if he'd always choose to save her over anything. Which is clearly not true.

Does anyone else know what the heck I'm babbling about? Or is it time for me to take brain boost meds?

phlebotinin | March 04, 20:31 CET

Maybe at the end of the season all the vampires will be given souls like all the potentials were made slayers at the end of Buffy.

pesoto74 | March 04, 20:43 CET

Can someone explain to me what Gunn's Barry, Jay and Wally reference meant? That's one of the few things on the series that flew over my head.

I personally loved the episode and think that this season has been the most brilliant and well-done yet. Amy, Alexis and J all turned in amazing performances, and I didn't see the twist with Illyria coming at the end. Will she become a part of Team Angel, or will Wesley attempt to help her behind the backs of his friends? Damn the WB for making me wait five weeks!

MindPieces | March 04, 21:39 CET

MindPieces,

I didn't get the reference either, so I looked it up on tvtome. Here's what they say:

"Gunn is referring to the Flash, the superhero speedster of DC Comics who had his own series a few years back. Presumably Gunn is a fan of old-school - the current Flash is Wally West, Barry Allen's nephew."

phlebotinin | March 04, 21:41 CET

Can someone tell me where in the world the word 'offal' is pronounced 'oa-ful'?

Well, it's pronounced that way in my house, at least.

(Not that we use it frequently.)

bookrats | March 04, 22:41 CET

That was my least favorite episode of Angel ever. ME has always walked the melodrama line, and sometimes they fall off. The script felt stiff and contrived, the acting was disjointed, and poor Amy walking around up there all SCI-FI'd up and twitchy...I didn't buy it.

I think the show has a set of seriously fine actors, but I thought the episode was painfully bad. (I'm not going to qualify this with a lot of "this is just my opinion," because, well, that should be obvious.)

Zach's Mind, your Fred's-soul analysis almost saves the ending for me, so thanks for that. I really think, though, that they truly meant that her essence was annihilated -- maybe because if you kill people off so regularly, you have to keep ratcheting up the awfulness to maintain the impact.

Big disappointment.

Edited for typo.

[ edited by blissbat on 2004-03-04 22:08 ]

blissbat | March 05, 00:07 CET

I believe Illyria's "attraction" to Wesley is a bit two-fold.
1. Memories of him left over from Fred.
2. Wesley shot and killed her priest! She needs a priest...needs worship to survive. Wesley fits that role perfectly. "You will do this because I look like her." Yuppers, and then some.

Mutant Enemy | March 05, 00:51 CET

HELLO? DON'T POST SPOILERS IN NON SPOILER THREADS.

[ edited by prolific on 2004-03-04 23:18 ]

FredS | March 05, 00:53 CET

Isn't that a spoiler?

cal | March 05, 00:55 CET

Yes that's a spoiler. FredS, you should edit your post.

electricspacegirl | March 05, 01:11 CET

yeah i read somewhere thats hes in a episode soon or something. who knows if its true

norman | March 05, 01:15 CET

FredS - you posted a story without a link earlier in the day. Please go read our rules, so next time your posts won't get deleted. Drop us an e-mail when you've done so, and you'll get your posting rights back. Thanks!

Caroline | March 05, 01:17 CET

Jay Garrick was the Silver Age Flash. Barry Allen was the second Flash. Wally West is the current Flash. I'm not actually a Flash fan, so I can't give many more details than that I'm afraid.

Haunt | March 05, 02:11 CET

Sorry I didn't mean to post wrong I am new to the board and really didn't know how to start a new message. And as for spoilers I am sorry for that too I didn't think just giving who was and who wasn't listed on IMDB for Angel was spoilers.

FredS | March 05, 02:22 CET

A thought I had last night is that Wesley is the only person in the main gang that we've seen use a gun, as I recall. It raises an interesting image in my mind- the rest of the gang (on both shows) sees this as a fight between good and evil, an old-fashioned battle where one side is bad (demons) and the other is good (humans), and those lines aren't to be crossed by them. They don't kill humans, no matter what. Whereas Wesley sees it in a different view, that villains are where you find them and they should be delt with using all means necessary- he views the fight in more modern terms, in a way, and is then willing to fight it with more modern weapons. The whole image of Angel with a sword and Wesley with his two pistols fits nicely to sum up the seperation of philosophies between the two.

kishi | March 05, 03:09 CET

Angel killed a human in Conviction. An evil human, but a human nonetheless.

electricspacegirl | March 05, 03:27 CET

Jay Garrick was the Golden Age Flash, he wore a metal helmet, like a doughboy, with wings. He's still around in Flash and JSA. Barry Allen was the Silver Age Flash, a police scientist who originally wore the red and yellow Flash costume. He died in DC's Crisis series. At that point, Kid Flash, Wally West, took up the mantle and costume of his uncle and is the Flash to this day.

I was overly excited that Gunn is not only a comic fan, but is a fan of silver and golden age books especially, I say this cause he mentions Wally last who has been The Flash for almost 20 years now.

jack knight | March 05, 04:38 CET

Oops, thanks Jack. I meant Golden Age, not Silver Age.

Haunt | March 05, 04:56 CET

I’ve got to say this and get it off my chest because it’s really bugged me all night long and today. Granted I made a post that didn’t have a link and I said I was sorry for that because I am pretty new to this site and I didn’t know the rule. But then when I posted a message in a already on going thread about Fred being dead or what I get yelled at by quite a few people for saying I posted a spoiler due to my saying what was listed in IMDB as to who is listed in the cast and the years they appear and don’t appear. Yet Norman made a comment about that he had read the same thing about Connor and no one said anything about his post or even removed it. Now here I am getting yelled at. I have said I am sorry I have even sent a email to the owner of the site saying I was sorry like he asked so I could get posting rights back and yet here I sit still with my posting rights revoked so I want to know how it is again that Norman can say what he said and no one yells at him

FredS | March 05, 23:05 CET

FredS I completely understand your confusion....but on a COMPLETELY different topic...

that is one helluva long-ass sentence ya wrote there towards the end. ;-) Holy cow.

Mutant Enemy | March 06, 00:12 CET

Every site has some sort of rules. It's always a good idea to look them up and familiarise yourself with them before posting. Especially when you're 'new'. Makes the admins' job a lot easier and you won't get yelled at.

[ edited by prolific on 2004-03-05 22:57 ]

Caroline | March 06, 00:26 CET